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Message no. 1
From: DrakkathX@***.COM
Subject: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:11:50 EDT
the goal of this message is to get feedback on the "Sniper Shot." I do not
wish to address other issues of sniping in this post.

The "Sniper Shot" as i have dubbed it would allow PC's to combine several
skills into one roll for a hit.
ex. Jon rolls firearms + 1/2 demolitions + 1/2 biotech
against Dead
guy A.
but to keep things from going sploot too fast you've got to add lots of
limitations.

Here's my idea:
>>>>>>>a 3 point edge "Sniper's Accuracy"
If the character spends 5 actions Aiming, and
nothing else, no
movement; **no combat pool for defense**;
nothing-
allow them to make the shot using firearms + 1/2
demolitions(nonliving targets) or + 1/2 biotech(living
targets)
to their skill---- with a -2 to TN.

perhaps if this is overpowered, raise cost of the edge, or impose limits on
the maximum bonus from the other skills( +2 die), or increase the number of
actions to aim(6+ spent aiming). **Maybe allow the target a perception test
to see the sniper taking aim, and give them a chance to get out of sight.**
And do the reverse if it is underpowered.

----Hanuman


"This is Solid Snake. Respond please."
Message no. 2
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:06:07 -0600
Thus spake DrakkathX@***.COM:
>
> the goal of this message is to get feedback on the "Sniper Shot." I do
not
> wish to address other issues of sniping in this post.
>
> The "Sniper Shot" as i have dubbed it would allow PC's to combine several
> skills into one roll for a hit.
> ex. Jon rolls firearms + 1/2 demolitions + 1/2 biotech
> against Dead
> guy A.
> but to keep things from going sploot too fast you've got to add lots of
> limitations.
>
> Here's my idea:
> >>>>>>>a 3 point edge "Sniper's
Accuracy"
> If the character spends 5 actions Aiming, and
> nothing else, no
> movement; **no combat pool for defense**;
> nothing-
> allow them to make the shot using firearms + 1/2
> demolitions(nonliving targets) or + 1/2 biotech(living
> targets)
> to their skill---- with a -2 to TN.
>
> perhaps if this is overpowered, raise cost of the edge, or impose limits on
> the maximum bonus from the other skills( +2 die), or increase the number of
> actions to aim(6+ spent aiming). **Maybe allow the target a perception test
> to see the sniper taking aim, and give them a chance to get out of sight.**
> And do the reverse if it is underpowered.

The simple house rule we use is that the sniper gets to make his shot
with all the normal modifiers (he is, after all, just shooting at a
target, moving or not) but the target doesn't get to use any combat
pool to resist the shot, only body dice. This is only if the sniper
was stealthy enough, or the target was otherwise oblivious to him. If
the target can see and react to the sniper then it goeas to normal
combat rules.

If the sniper is worth his salt, he'll drop almost any target with
target numbers of two and probably about 16 successes. Not many people
are going to be able to keep breathing after that.

--
| Even Einstein objected to the idea of
Mike Loseke | wave-function collapse, calling it
mike@*******.com | "spooky action-at-a-distance."
Message no. 3
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:09:00 EDT
I admit it, I -Snipped- EVERYTHING in that post. Where on earth did the idea
of merging Demolitions and Biotech into a "Sniper Shot" ever come from? What
did I miss here?

=K
Message no. 4
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 03:24:30 +0200
*snip the '3 point 'sniper's accuracy' edge.'.

Sounds like someone saw Terminator II and took to heart the comment that
the Terminator knew human anatomy so as to be more effective at killing.

It's an interesting thought as such but not, I think, realistic.
While the skills might be relevant, they would be so for identifying proper
targets for called shots or similar, not directly enhance the combat test.


If I wanted to have 'sniper edges' I'd have it as a physad power (or possibly
edge or both) and call it 'focused aiming' or some such, giving the sniper the
ability to get 1 more aiming level (ordinary max of skill/2) per level of the
ability.

Or rapid aiming, getting 2 levels of aiming per simple action.
(Highly unbalancing, I'd think, but hey, it's a thought.).

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 5
From: Jett <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:43:37 -0400
> If the sniper is worth his salt, he'll drop almost any target with
> target numbers of two and probably about 16 successes. Not many people
> are going to be able to keep breathing after that.

Exactly. Jett, for example, has a crossbow skill of 7. With a
Smartlinked bow, combat pool, rangefinder, etc, she can roll 14 dice
against a very low TN. And, with dikote bolts (expensive, but worth it),
base damage of 9D means that usually, one success is enough. I've had
Jett make some OUTSTANDINGLY impossible shots with one or two KP and all
those dice, and seen other characters with similar skills with rifles,
etc do the same. IMO, additional sniper mods really aren't necessary.

--Jett
Message no. 6
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:44:26 EDT
In a message dated 5/28/98 8:38:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
grota@*********.COM writes:

> Exactly. Jett, for example, has a crossbow skill of 7. With a
> Smartlinked bow, combat pool, rangefinder, etc, she can roll 14 dice
> against a very low TN. And, with dikote bolts (expensive, but worth it),
> base damage of 9D means that usually, one success is enough. I've had
> Jett make some OUTSTANDINGLY impossible shots with one or two KP and all
> those dice, and seen other characters with similar skills with rifles,
> etc do the same. IMO, additional sniper mods really aren't necessary.
>
Smartlink, shmartlink...want something *really* fucking frightening, try
conning and/or scamming Mike out of his "Smart Arrows" he's made his new
Rigger/Archer. Oh yeah, NOW we are talking some hyper-nasty crap.

Sure, they're expensive, and he's only got 4 of 'em (IIRC), but they -really-
begin to set the stage for some nasty ideas.

=K
Message no. 7
From: DrakkathX@***.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:31:15 EDT
>>>>>>The simple house rule we use is that the sniper gets to make his
shot
with all the normal modifiers (he is, after all, just shooting at a
target, moving or not) but the target doesn't get to use any combat
pool to resist the shot, only body dice. This is only if the sniper
was stealthy enough, or the target was otherwise oblivious to him. If
the target can see and react to the sniper then it goeas to normal
combat rules.

If the sniper is worth his salt, he'll drop almost any target with
target numbers of two and probably about 16 successes. Not many people
are going to be able to keep breathing after that.

--
| Even Einstein objected to the idea of
Mike Loseke | wave-function collapse, calling it
mike@*******.com | "spooky action-at-a-distance."<<<<<<




yeah that would save time.
Message no. 8
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:34:20 EDT
In a message dated 5/29/98 1:53:08 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Ereskanti@***.COM
writes:

> Smartlink, shmartlink...want something *really* fucking frightening, try
> conning and/or scamming Mike out of his "Smart Arrows" he's made his new
> Rigger/Archer. Oh yeah, NOW we are talking some hyper-nasty crap.
>
> Sure, they're expensive, and he's only got 4 of 'em (IIRC), but they
-really-
>
> begin to set the stage for some nasty ideas.

I took the Small UAV Fixed Wing, which is a Body 1 drone, and made it into a
Body 0 drone instead in the shape of an arrow, and since there is no power
plant, other than my pc in question, the limit on range is as per a standard
arrow.

The guy has a strength of 10 (Muscle Aug IV) ... and so has a range of 600
meters. The speed of the arrow is 10 times the damage of the arrow (14) which
means a Speed of 140, achieved immediately after launch, and still doing arrow
damage on impact (14M).

The Accel for the drone is a 10, and my pc can make the thing come to a halt
...

As for the skill with piloting the arrows, Pilot Fixed Wing (Remote Operations
/ Arrows) ...

And the drones still have Rigger Adaption, Remote Control Interface, and
nothing else for the moment ...

As for cost ... 14,200 nuyen each ... and he has 6 of the things ... almost
gave one or two up to make some contacts ...

Though, this is still the beginning for the pc ... I have plans to add in a
Tactical Computer and Sentry Gun System onto the Bow, this way all I have to
do is pull back the arrow, and let the sentry gun system do the firing ...
which can be accomplished via a remote bow trigger my pc has in his hand.
This is only the beginning ...

Mike
Message no. 9
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:42:53 -0500
On Thu, 28 May 1998 17:06:07 -0600 Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM> writes:
>Thus spake DrakkathX@***.COM:
<SNIP Sniping Edge>

> The simple house rule we use is that the sniper gets to make his shot
>with all the normal modifiers (he is, after all, just shooting at a
>target, moving or not) but the target doesn't get to use any combat
>pool to resist the shot, only body dice. This is only if the sniper
>was stealthy enough, or the target was otherwise oblivious to him. If
>the target can see and react to the sniper then it goeas to normal
>combat rules.
>
> If the sniper is worth his salt, he'll drop almost any target with
>target numbers of two and probably about 16 successes. Not many people
>are going to be able to keep breathing after that.
>
<SNIP Sig>
> Mike Loseke <SNIP More Sig>

It was my understanding that combat pool can only be used against attacks
the defender is aware of so how is what you use a house rule? (Since if
the sniper is worth his salt, the mark won't be aware of the attack)

BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)

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Message no. 10
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:42:45 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, Alfredo B Alves[SMTP:dghost@****.COM] wrote:
> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?

If they're any good, like most military snipers, then the answer is DAMN
difficult. Army Snipers tend to be masters of camouflage and
concealment, not to mention expert marksman. Part of the training is to
be able to move unobserved into position, take out the target(s) and
then be able to get the hell out again.

That's why they're so dangerous.

cheers
Geoff

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"That rates about a 9.5 on my weird-shit-o-meter"
- Will Smith in "Men in Black"
Message no. 11
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:13:59 -0600
Thus spake Alfredo B Alves:
>
> On Thu, 28 May 1998 17:06:07 -0600 Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM> writes:
> >Thus spake DrakkathX@***.COM:
> <SNIP Sniping Edge>
>
> > The simple house rule we use is that the sniper gets to make his shot
> >with all the normal modifiers (he is, after all, just shooting at a
> >target, moving or not) but the target doesn't get to use any combat
> >pool to resist the shot, only body dice. This is only if the sniper
> >was stealthy enough, or the target was otherwise oblivious to him. If
> >the target can see and react to the sniper then it goeas to normal
> >combat rules.
> >
> > If the sniper is worth his salt, he'll drop almost any target with
> >target numbers of two and probably about 16 successes. Not many people
> >are going to be able to keep breathing after that.
>
> It was my understanding that combat pool can only be used against attacks
> the defender is aware of so how is what you use a house rule? (Since if
> the sniper is worth his salt, the mark won't be aware of the attack)

I call it a house rule because the core rules make no mention of sniping.
I'm sure you're right, that the rules do indeed say that a person has to
be aware of the attack to use combat pool, but some people need it to be
repeated ad infinitum and even then they sometimes don't get it (players).

> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?

Umm, I'm not going to get into this again. The last time this list got
into it it got a little ugly. Let's just say that 99.99% of the time,
the sniper is never seen and leave it at that.

--
| Even Einstein objected to the idea of
Mike Loseke | wave-function collapse, calling it
mike@*******.com | "spooky action-at-a-distance."
Message no. 12
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:11:16 -0500
>Smartlink, shmartlink...want something *really* fucking frightening,
try
>conning and/or scamming Mike out of his "Smart Arrows" he's made his
new
>Rigger/Archer. Oh yeah, NOW we are talking some hyper-nasty crap.
>
>Sure, they're expensive, and he's only got 4 of 'em (IIRC), but
they -really-
>begin to set the stage for some nasty ideas.
>


Smart arrows? What the hell?

My group archer made himself some explosive arrows, dikoted tips, etc,
but not that extreme; course, he is a NA lion shaman, not quite his
bag...(grin)

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 13
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:57:06 +0200
> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?

Calculate using more or less normal methods.

Base 4
Camouflage +4
Stealth successes ~ +4
Good cover, +6
Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).

Modifier for 400 M range is more vague, IIRC. Depending on terrain and GM's
mood.. (Light brushwood, the last 100M clear, I'd say +6).

Leaving you with an approximate TN of 24 at day against a mundane sniper in
good sniping terrain.

It'll drop drastically if the sniper has to cross open terrain, though, but
would still be hard if appropriately camo'd and moving really slow.
Open terrain would be easier if using a ruthenium suit or other
high-tech gear, stealth would be better if a physad.

That sound reasonable to you?

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 14
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:07:09 PDT
>> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?
>
>Calculate using more or less normal methods.
>
>Base 4
>Camouflage +4
>Stealth successes ~ +4
>Good cover, +6
>Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).
>
>Modifier for 400 M range is more vague, IIRC. Depending on terrain and
GM's
>mood.. (Light brushwood, the last 100M clear, I'd say +6).
>
>Leaving you with an approximate TN of 24 at day against a mundane
sniper in
>good sniping terrain.
>
>It'll drop drastically if the sniper has to cross open terrain, though,
but
>would still be hard if appropriately camo'd and moving really slow.
>Open terrain would be easier if using a ruthenium suit or other
>high-tech gear, stealth would be better if a physad.
>
>That sound reasonable to you?

I totally agree with your numbers. I mean, that's what's always made
snipers so damned nasty: you never know they're there 'til your dead!

As for the reduced modifier for moving over "open" terrain... I wouldn't
lose any sleep over it. Any sniper worth the price of his bullets
wouldn't be crossing open terrain. Good snipers sit in the tree, very
still, for days on end if need be...

Then, of course, there's the urban sniper...

how many people(besides stupid tourists) look up at the tops of
buildings in downtown areas of the city? And if that's a little too
conspicuous for you, how about a window with a reflective coating of
somekind(they all have it in the 'plex). Sure your shot shatters the
window, but by that time your target's dead, so who cares, right?

Remember that movie, "the Professional"? Of course you do, think of the
scene where Leon and the girl are on the roof, shooting that dork that
was jogging in the park. Hell, the guy was almost too far to see with
the naked eye, imagine what kind of distances you can manage in the
2050's!

"Sniper: Run, and you'll only die tired."

Renegade

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:39:26 +1000
> >> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?
> >
> >Calculate using more or less normal methods.
> >
> >Base 4
> >Camouflage +4
> >Stealth successes ~ +4
> >Good cover, +6
> >Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).
> >
> >Modifier for 400 M range is more vague, IIRC. Depending on terrain and
> GM's
> >mood.. (Light brushwood, the last 100M clear, I'd say +6).
> >
> >Leaving you with an approximate TN of 24 at day against a mundane
> sniper in
> >good sniping terrain.

One house rule that I have, that I`m considering implementing, is
Skill-related Perception tests. I`ve always thought it odd that some
tourist bozo with an Intelligence of 3 has an equal chance to spot the
sniper as, say, a professional army sniper with an intelligence of 3.

My rule allows the rolling of a related skill (at the GMs discretion).
Every two sucesses on the skill test reduces the Perception target
number by one. Rather like centering, really.

So say you`re walking through a park.. You think someone`s watching you,
hidden in the shadows. You have high Stealth, so you know where you`d
hide, if *you* were following you. You can spot the good hiding places,
basically.

Equally, if you had high firearms, you`d be allowed to roll that to help
with a perception test to spot a sniper. Note that this would be very
much a GM call - if you were a mad-crazy-two-Uzis-and-spray sammy with a
firearms of eight, I wouldn`t allow it. If you were a canny ex-Army
sniper with a firearms of six, maybe a Physad with Enhanced Centering
for firearms, or a concentration in Sniper Rifles, I *would* allow it.
In many situations it will be a GM call, based on the character`s
background and the character type.

Lady Jestyr
Who`s dog tired from her new job - third day on the job and I`ve already
worked two days` overtime... whew...
- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 16
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 04:43:11 +0200
Renegade wrote:

>>> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?
>>
>>Calculated using more or less normal methods:
>>
>>Base 4
>>Camouflage +4
>>Stealth successes ~ +4
>>Good cover, +6
>>Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).

>>Modifier for 400 M range is more vague, IIRC. Depending on terrain and
>>GM's mood.. (Light brushwood, the last 100M clear, I'd say +6).

>>Leaving you with an approximate TN of 24 at day against a mundane
>>sniper in
>>good sniping terrain.

>>It'll drop drastically if the sniper has to cross open terrain, though.


>As for the reduced modifier for moving over "open" terrain... I wouldn't
>lose any sleep over it. Any sniper worth the price of his bullets
>wouldn't be crossing open terrain. Good snipers sit in the tree, very
>still, for days on end if need be...

First of all, wellcome to the list!

Secondly, since one or more of the players, while sniping, would almost
certainly be put in a position where they would be likely to cross open
terrain, then that *is* a concern. But how would it affect the TN?

The modifier for cover would be lost. If the open terrain was uneven, though,
there could be, at least at times, some cover.

Secondly, the sniper has to make a choice - move quickly, and get fewer tests
against him, but with an 'obvious action' penalty' or creep slowly, and get
more tests, but with less of a penalty, or even a bonus.

If he runs, then it's an obvious action of -6. (Waving and jumping up and down
would be an -8... not automatic, because they can, after all, not be noticed
even if they *try* to call attention to themselves.).
Base 4, camo +4 (If it's still appropriate), stealth ~ +4, running -6,
400M range would be slightly less, +3 perhaps, for a final TN of 9 for
a skilled sniper. (Without the successes, the TN would be 5, which is not
good.. not good at all.). The difference between walking and running
is fairly minimal.

If he crawls then the TN would be between 6 and 8 higher, but there'd be a
few more tests made. With a TN of 15 he won't be instantly spotted, if at all.

As in anything else, think and you'll do better. Take your calculated chances,
live or die with the consequences. And treat both players and military snipers
with the same rules.

And don't put a sniper on a player unless you plan to kill him.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 17
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 05:00:54 +0200
Jestyr wrote:
>My rule allows the rolling of a related skill (at the GMs discretion).
>Every two sucesses on the skill test reduces the Perception target
>number by one. Rather like centering, really.
>
>So say you`re walking through a park.. You think someone`s watching you,
>hidden in the shadows. You have high Stealth, so you know where you`d
>hide, if *you* were following you. You can spot the good hiding places,
>basically.

Hm... yes, this sounds reasonable. But it should only be applicable if actively
using that skill for that purpose, though, not a 'generic' modifier.
(I guess that's the way you intend it, but it shouldn't go without mention.).

ABout skill being determined by what kind of character it is...

It doesn't ring well with me. Either the character knows about firearms and
their effect on people, or they don't. The effect you mention might be
due to a combination with Stealth, though, or using stealth instead.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 18
From: GeorgeX <georgex@****.GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:03:20 -0400
I like the idea of more specialized rules for snipers. There seems to be a
lot of characters designed for this task, but still no more advanced rules
other than a street sam or a physiad spin off.
I've considered this problem before, with a certain physiad that I have
been playing, and the house rule we came up with was a Firearms
specialization in Sniper Rifles, and then one could roll Biotech to stage
the damage code up. These rules worked, but I believe they are probably
too tame, and further development is a good idea.


-GeorgeX
UIN:2730203
Message no. 19
From: GeorgeX <georgex@****.GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:17:20 -0400
At 10:34 PM 5/28/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/29/98 1:53:08 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Ereskanti@***.COM
>writes:
>
>> Smartlink, shmartlink...want something *really* fucking frightening, try
>> conning and/or scamming Mike out of his "Smart Arrows" he's made his
new
>> Rigger/Archer. Oh yeah, NOW we are talking some hyper-nasty crap.
>>
>> Sure, they're expensive, and he's only got 4 of 'em (IIRC), but they
>-really-
>>
>> begin to set the stage for some nasty ideas.
>
>I took the Small UAV Fixed Wing, which is a Body 1 drone, and made it into a
>Body 0 drone instead in the shape of an arrow, and since there is no power
>plant, other than my pc in question, the limit on range is as per a standard
>arrow.
>
>The guy has a strength of 10 (Muscle Aug IV) ... and so has a range of 600
>meters. The speed of the arrow is 10 times the damage of the arrow (14)
which
>means a Speed of 140, achieved immediately after launch, and still doing
arrow
>damage on impact (14M).
>
>The Accel for the drone is a 10, and my pc can make the thing come to a halt
>...
>
>As for the skill with piloting the arrows, Pilot Fixed Wing (Remote
Operations
>/ Arrows) ...
>
>And the drones still have Rigger Adaption, Remote Control Interface, and
>nothing else for the moment ...
>
>As for cost ... 14,200 nuyen each ... and he has 6 of the things ... almost
>gave one or two up to make some contacts ...
>
>Though, this is still the beginning for the pc ... I have plans to add in a
>Tactical Computer and Sentry Gun System onto the Bow, this way all I have to
>do is pull back the arrow, and let the sentry gun system do the firing ...
>which can be accomplished via a remote bow trigger my pc has in his hand.
>This is only the beginning ...
>
>Mike
>

Beautiful...simply beautiful. there is a difference between min-maxing,
and creativity. You might be pushing the line, but it is very creative.


-GeorgeX
UIN:2730203
Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:31:12 -0500
On Sat, 30 May 1998 11:39:26 +1000 Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes:
>> >> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?

>> >Calculate using more or less normal methods.
>> >
>> >Base 4
>> >Camouflage +4
>> >Stealth successes ~ +4
>> >Good cover, +6
>> >Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).
>> >
>> >Modifier for 400 M range is more vague, IIRC. Depending on terrain
and GM's
>> >mood.. (Light brushwood, the last 100M clear, I'd say +6).
>> >
>> >Leaving you with an approximate TN of 24 at day against a mundane
sniper in
>> >good sniping terrain.

>One house rule that I have, that I`m considering implementing, is
>Skill-related Perception tests. I`ve always thought it odd that some
>tourist bozo with an Intelligence of 3 has an equal chance to spot the
>sniper as, say, a professional army sniper with an intelligence of 3.
>
>My rule allows the rolling of a related skill (at the GMs discretion).
>Every two sucesses on the skill test reduces the Perception target
>number by one. Rather like centering, really.
>
>So say you`re walking through a park.. You think someone`s watching you,
>hidden in the shadows. You have high Stealth, so you know where you`d
>hide, if *you* were following you. You can spot the good hiding places,
>basically.
>
>Equally, if you had high firearms, you`d be allowed to roll that to help
>with a perception test to spot a sniper. Note that this would be very
>much a GM call - if you were a mad-crazy-two-Uzis-and-spray sammy with a
>firearms of eight, I wouldn`t allow it. If you were a canny ex-Army
>sniper with a firearms of six, maybe a Physad with Enhanced Centering
>for firearms, or a concentration in Sniper Rifles, I *would* allow it.
>In many situations it will be a GM call, based on the character`s
>background and the character type.
>
>Lady Jestyr
<SNIP Sig>

Cool ... as I read your first paragraph I was thinking why not make it
like a centering skill? Grated minds think alike? ;)

IMO the "perception" skill (defined as the skill used to reduce T#'s as
per centering so as not to confuse it with a new skill) should always to
be Stealth when trying to spot someone who is hidden (ie a sniper)
although as an option, an average of stealth and firearms could be used
since you also want to consider from what angles would a sniper have a
clear shot and what angles culd a sniper shoot from through an
obstruction without too much problems ...

Another option is make a sepererate perception skill that works as above
... the good thng is your not penalized for not having the skill and it
reflects training in looking for details (the skill could be have
concentrations / specializations on what to look for) the down side is it
is /another/ skill to buy (I don't know about you, but usually tend to be
pressed for skill points at charcter creation ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)


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Message no. 21
From: Jett <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:01:28 -0400
> Remember that movie, "the Professional"? Of course you do, think of the
> scene where Leon and the girl are on the roof, shooting that dork that
> was jogging in the park. Hell, the guy was almost too far to see with
> the naked eye, imagine what kind of distances you can manage in the
> 2050's!
>
> "Sniper: Run, and you'll only die tired."
>
> Renegade
>


Yes, indeed. My father shoots in competitions. He has a scope that can
read the print on a gravestone from more than a quarter mile away.
Imagine in 2057, with laser-scopes, etc...


--Jett

"Hey, Bill, are you Hindu?"
"No, why?"
"Cause you got a red dot on your forehead..."
Message no. 22
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:18:36 EDT
In a message dated 5/29/98 6:57:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> Calculate using more or less normal methods.
>
> Stealth successes ~ +4

Okay, I snipped everything else, WHERE THE HELL did this +4 come from to the
"to hit" roll determination?

Folks, why is that I have a feeling all this "Sniper Talk" is immensely full
of House Rules. I just reread this stuff and "Stealth Mods" and "Shootist
Cover Modifiers" do NOT exist in them. What am I missing here?

=K
Message no. 23
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:25:10 EDT
In a message dated 5/29/98 8:18:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
renegde@*******.COM writes:

> >> BTW, how easy is it to spot a sniper at 400m?
> >
> >Calculate using more or less normal methods.
> >
> >Base 4
> >Camouflage +4
> >Stealth successes ~ +4
> >Good cover, +6
> >Normal action, +/-0. (Depending on action, +/- up to 8.).
>
OH WAIT A SECOND...guys, forget my other post to this one. I get it now, i
was looking at this from some bassakwards way...

=K (who just needs sleep)
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:00:21 +0100
'K' is the Symbol said on 1:18/30 May 98,...

> > Calculate using more or less normal methods.
> >
> > Stealth successes ~ +4
>
> Okay, I snipped everything else, WHERE THE HELL did this +4 come from to the
> "to hit" roll determination?

The Companion, IIRC. Every success generated on a Stealth (4)
test increases the TN to spot the character by +1. In Rune's
example, the sniper would have had 4 successes.

> Folks, why is that I have a feeling all this "Sniper Talk" is immensely
full
> of House Rules. I just reread this stuff and "Stealth Mods" and
"Shootist
> Cover Modifiers" do NOT exist in them. What am I missing here?

I think the cover mods Rune used are those for ranged combat
from FoF, which makes sense IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Your actions speak so loud I can't hear a word you're saying.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 25
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:29:05 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/98 3:17:17 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
georgex@****.GEOCITIES.COM writes:

> I like the idea of more specialized rules for snipers. There seems to be a
> lot of characters designed for this task, but still no more advanced rules
> other than a street sam or a physiad spin off.
> I've considered this problem before, with a certain physiad that I have
> been playing, and the house rule we came up with was a Firearms
> specialization in Sniper Rifles, and then one could roll Biotech to stage
> the damage code up. These rules worked, but I believe they are probably
> too tame, and further development is a good idea.

Okay everybody ... want a really wonderful sniper rifle ... something that
can't be hand-carried ... something needed to be strapped or bolted down onto
something ... use either of the cannons (Vigilant or Victory) but make them
single shot only weapons ... talk about range ... and since they are already
vehicular category weapons the bullets already are considered APDS (even if
you only bought normal ammunition) when used against soft targets (which
includes people dressed in Personnel Mil-Spec Hardened Armor). And if you go
out and get APDS rounds for this thing then the target is only going to get
one-quarter of their ballistic armor, rather than the normal half they would
get for just being hit by a normal round ...

Mike
Message no. 26
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:30:04 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/98 3:22:18 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
georgex@****.GEOCITIES.COM writes:

> >Though, this is still the beginning for the pc ... I have plans to add in a
> >Tactical Computer and Sentry Gun System onto the Bow, this way all I have
> to
> >do is pull back the arrow, and let the sentry gun system do the firing ...
> >which can be accomplished via a remote bow trigger my pc has in his hand.
> >This is only the beginning ...
> >
> >Mike
> >
>
> Beautiful...simply beautiful. there is a difference between min-maxing,
> and creativity. You might be pushing the line, but it is very creative.

Thank you very much GeorgeX ... thank you very much ... you just made my day
...

Mike
Message no. 27
From: Arc Light <G_master@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:10:17 +0200
Antonio Luccini wrote:

<SNIP previous quote>

> I totally agree with your numbers. I mean, that's what's always made
> snipers so damned nasty: you never know they're there 'til your dead!
>
> As for the reduced modifier for moving over "open" terrain... I wouldn'=
t
> lose any sleep over it. Any sniper worth the price of his bullets
> wouldn't be crossing open terrain. Good snipers sit in the tree, very
> still, for days on end if need be...

Yep, but the best do the unexpected, like lying in the open
terrain. Remember "The Sniper" with Tom Berenger? Suddenly, the grass
starts moving.... : )
When you are out for an Assasination, you have to deal with other
snipers who are just chasing any potential threat to their boss/ your
target...


> Then, of course, there's the urban sniper...
>
> how many people(besides stupid tourists) look up at the tops of
> buildings in downtown areas of the city?

The bodyguards? Rooftops are the most watched places when dealing with
threats like this. Ever watched some VIP politicians visting town? TV
always shows police snipers on rooftops, searching for threats! And you
can bet your a&% that there are some more in the dark, watching for the
professionals..

> And if that's a little too
> conspicuous for you, how about a window with a reflective coating of
> somekind(they all have it in the 'plex). Sure your shot shatters the
> window, but by that time your target's dead, so who cares, right?

Perhaps you want to escape? Think what happens to murderers?Never heard
that "If someone kills X, he is dead meat" to provide no motivation
for other terrorists? Some years ago a RAF terrorist killed an GSG 9
policeman when he got caught; the terrorist was shot in the head from
close distance several times when already unconscious... german
listmembers can possibly tell more.

> Remember that movie, "the Professional"? Of course you do, think of the=

> scene where Leon and the girl are on the roof, shooting that dork that
> was jogging in the park. Hell, the guy was almost too far to see with
> the naked eye, imagine what kind of distances you can manage in the
> 2050's!

Yeah, in the movies.. considering wind drift, the moving target with
bystanders/ guards and the situation that the girl probably never used a
rifle before (it was a modified M16 IIRC), this was pure luck. Bullet
should have been pretty light too, very hard shot even with normal 5.56
NATO.

<SNIP ad plus name and .sig

Arc Light

--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bei zunehmender Dämmerung hat der Soldat alsbald mit Dunkelheit zu
rechnen.
- ZDV Bundeswehr
Message no. 28
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:58:40 GMT
On 30 May 98 19:10:17 GMT, G_master@*******.COM (Arc Light) disseminated foul
capitalist propaganda by writing:

[...]
>Yep, but the best do the unexpected, like lying in the open
>terrain. Remember "The Sniper" with Tom Berenger? Suddenly, the grass
>starts moving.... : )
>When you are out for an Assasination, you have to deal with other
>snipers who are just chasing any potential threat to their boss/ your
>target...

Counter-sniper fire... and counter-counter-sniper fire. Oh boy... ;))

[...]
>Perhaps you want to escape? Think what happens to murderers?Never heard
>that "If someone kills X, he is dead meat" to provide no motivation
>for other terrorists? Some years ago a RAF terrorist killed an GSG 9
>policeman when he got caught; the terrorist was shot in the head from
>close distance several times when already unconscious... german
>listmembers can possibly tell more.

Actually, he was obiously trying to escape. He was just faking unconsciousness.

Isn't this, like, obvious?

<sarcastic grin>

[...]
>Arc Light
Leslie
--
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Star Wars junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
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Message no. 29
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:11:58 +0000
Arc Light wrote:
*snip nobody watches the roofs*
> The bodyguards? Rooftops are the most watched places when dealing with
> threats like this. Ever watched some VIP politicians visting town? TV
> always shows police snipers on rooftops, searching for threats! And you
> can bet your a&% that there are some more in the dark, watching for the
> professionals..

Open windows are, of course, also not completely ignored, to say the
least, and the optics of shooting through glass, especially at an
angle, isn't perfect. (I think.). It is not easy to pull things like
that off.

Which leaves us in the normal Shadowrunner's position - be creative
or be dead.

Most 'public' assassinations are from a guy in the crowd pulling a
pistol and firing at the target, right? (Not all, but I think those
incidents are a lot more common than a guy in the shadows with a
rifle. Premeditation is harder to prove, for one.).

It appears a safer bet to do things like this at non-public
arrangements. The security measures when a VIP is out with his wife
shopping, or eating dinner, or whatever, is a lot less than at large
arrangements. Even then, it's not a safe deal, of course. But the
effect of a 'public event' is a lot greater, so that's what runners
might be hired for, right?

(The current team supposedly is ethically aware, so they won't take
missions like that. Which is good.).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 30
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:15:59 PDT
>One house rule that I have, that I`m considering implementing, is
>Skill-related Perception tests. I`ve always thought it odd that some
>tourist bozo with an Intelligence of 3 has an equal chance to spot the
>sniper as, say, a professional army sniper with an intelligence of 3.
>
>My rule allows the rolling of a related skill (at the GMs discretion).
>Every two sucesses on the skill test reduces the Perception target
>number by one. Rather like centering, really.
>
>So say you`re walking through a park.. You think someone`s watching
you,
>hidden in the shadows. You have high Stealth, so you know where you`d
>hide, if *you* were following you. You can spot the good hiding places,
>basically.
>
>Equally, if you had high firearms, you`d be allowed to roll that to
help
>with a perception test to spot a sniper. Note that this would be very
>much a GM call - if you were a mad-crazy-two-Uzis-and-spray sammy with
a
>firearms of eight, I wouldn`t allow it. If you were a canny ex-Army
>sniper with a firearms of six, maybe a Physad with Enhanced Centering
>for firearms, or a concentration in Sniper Rifles, I *would* allow it.
>In many situations it will be a GM call, based on the character`s
>background and the character type.
>
>Lady Jestyr
>Who`s dog tired from her new job - third day on the job and I`ve
already
>worked two days` overtime... whew...
> - I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
>| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
>| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
>
I like your idea! I think another point to conseder is that the average
tourist, or civilian for that matter, doesn't concern themselves with
where a sniper might be concealing themselves at any given time... I
have a few friends in the "real"(I use that term loosely when pertaining
it to them) world, who have taken it upon themselves to aquire much of
the skills that would be required of a modern day shadowrunner. They are
ALWAYS suspicious of someone trying to attack them in any form(why, I
have no idea, as no one seems to actually care...). Thus I can only
assume that a shadowrunner, who really has people after him or her day
in and day out, has a heightened state of awareness brought around by
intense paranoia. I think that we can then assume that shadowrunners are
always scanning the likely places of ambush, and their perception tests,
in my opinion, should reflect that. Any one else?

Renegade

"Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it. Worry about the
shrapnel marked 'occupant'!"

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Message no. 31
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:19:43 PDT
>Yeah, in the movies.. considering wind drift, the moving target with
>bystanders/ guards and the situation that the girl probably never used
a
>rifle before (it was a modified M16 IIRC), this was pure luck. Bullet
>should have been pretty light too, very hard shot even with normal 5.56
>NATO.
>
><SNIP ad plus name and .sig
>
>Arc Light
>
>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Bei zunehmender Dämmerung hat der Soldat alsbald mit Dunkelheit zu
>rechnen.
>- ZDV Bundeswehr
>
Arc Light - I agree with you, it was pretty fake, but you have to admit,
a someone who was a decent shot, with proper ammunition, could have
easily hit the guy. And the guy(and more importantly, his bodyguards)
never had a clue!

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 32
From: Cavalier the Mighty <shadowcav@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:37:32 PDT
Ereskanti@***.COM
>>writes:
>>
>>> Smartlink, shmartlink...want something *really* fucking frightening,
try
>>> conning and/or scamming Mike out of his "Smart Arrows" he's made
his new
>>> Rigger/Archer. Oh yeah, NOW we are talking some hyper-nasty crap.
>>>
>>> Sure, they're expensive, and he's only got 4 of 'em (IIRC), but
they
>>-really-
>>>
>>> begin to set the stage for some nasty ideas.
>>
>>I took the Small UAV Fixed Wing, which is a Body 1 drone, and made it
into a
>>Body 0 drone instead in the shape of an arrow, and since there is no
power
>>plant, other than my pc in question, the limit on range is as per a
standard
>>arrow.
>>
>>The guy has a strength of 10 (Muscle Aug IV) ... and so has a range of
600
>>meters. The speed of the arrow is 10 times the damage of the arrow
(14)
>which
>>means a Speed of 140, achieved immediately after launch, and still
doing
>arrow
>>damage on impact (14M).
>>
>>The Accel for the drone is a 10, and my pc can make the thing come to
a halt
>>...
>>
>>As for the skill with piloting the arrows, Pilot Fixed Wing (Remote
>Operations
>>/ Arrows) ...
>>
>>And the drones still have Rigger Adaption, Remote Control Interface,
and
>>nothing else for the moment ...
>>
>>As for cost ... 14,200 nuyen each ... and he has 6 of the things ...
almost
>>gave one or two up to make some contacts ...
>>
>>Though, this is still the beginning for the pc ... I have plans to add
in a
>>Tactical Computer and Sentry Gun System onto the Bow, this way all I
have to
>>do is pull back the arrow, and let the sentry gun system do the firing
...
>>which can be accomplished via a remote bow trigger my pc has in his
hand.
>>This is only the beginning ...

Well, mechanically, that would be hard to do. If the arrow has no power
plant, then the rigger would have almost no control over it. What you're
talking about there is more of a missile than an arrow. A SMALL missile,
laucnhed with a teeny tiny jet engine. You have to have some propulsion
other than the bow string for a rigger to be able to control the thing
at all.

Now, in terms of role playing, can you imagine what an arrow like you
suggest would do to a rigger? Remember, riggers have a pretty deep link
with the vehicles they control. They BECOME the vehicle. And I don't
know about you, but I don't want to become anything that is going to
violently collide with other solid objects on a regular basis.
Controlling the arrow would be real cool, but landing it would be the
real bitch.

"Yeah, this is Cavalier. Problem?"

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Message no. 33
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:22:22 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/98 11:48:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
shadowcav@*******.COM writes:

> Well, mechanically, that would be hard to do. If the arrow has no power
> plant, then the rigger would have almost no control over it. What you're
> talking about there is more of a missile than an arrow. A SMALL missile,
> laucnhed with a teeny tiny jet engine. You have to have some propulsion
> other than the bow string for a rigger to be able to control the thing
> at all.

Nope, none needed. The "Propulsion" is the action of actually being fired
from the arrow. A very small "battery" is installed for controlling of the
airflow and the structure, nothing more. No jet engine, no anything of the
sorts.

> Now, in terms of role playing, can you imagine what an arrow like you
> suggest would do to a rigger? Remember, riggers have a pretty deep link
> with the vehicles they control. They BECOME the vehicle. And I don't
> know about you, but I don't want to become anything that is going to
> violently collide with other solid objects on a regular basis.
> Controlling the arrow would be real cool, but landing it would be the
> real bitch.

It ain't meant for such "nice landings". It still remains an arrow. Nothing
more. What it is, is a "Smart Assassin's Weapon", one that is likely to be
used in the not so distant future.

> "Yeah, this is Cavalier. Problem?"

Could be soon Cavalier, we'll have to wait and see... :P
Welcome to RN btw..

=K
Message no. 34
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:51:19 +0000
*snip Rigged arrows*
> Now, in terms of role playing, can you imagine what an arrow like you
> suggest would do to a rigger? Remember, riggers have a pretty deep link
> with the vehicles they control. They BECOME the vehicle. And I don't
> know about you, but I don't want to become anything that is going to
> violently collide with other solid objects on a regular basis.
> Controlling the arrow would be real cool, but landing it would be the
> real bitch.

Well, according to the rules on rigged missiles, they give the rigger
a 'gracious exit' as the missile impacts. Should do the same with
these.. (might cost a bit, but then, it allready does). I kinda like
the idea myself, even though it reminds me of an *extremely* poor
movie I saw once... by the way, are the arrows 'normal' size or
larger? I'd think they'd have to be larger... oh, and can
you say VERY distinctive style? :)

That said, I don't know exactly how effective they should be... in
fact what *would* the effect be? Same as aiming while 'on the way' ?
What's the plan, K?
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 35
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:23:47 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/98 4:48:46 AM !!!First Boot!!!, shadowcav@*******.COM
writes:

> >>Tactical Computer and Sentry Gun System onto the Bow, this way all I
> have to
> >>do is pull back the arrow, and let the sentry gun system do the firing
> ...
> >>which can be accomplished via a remote bow trigger my pc has in his
> hand.
> >>This is only the beginning ...
>
> Well, mechanically, that would be hard to do. If the arrow has no power
> plant, then the rigger would have almost no control over it. What you're
> talking about there is more of a missile than an arrow. A SMALL missile,
> laucnhed with a teeny tiny jet engine. You have to have some propulsion
> other than the bow string for a rigger to be able to control the thing
> at all.

Umm, the only modification done to the arrow is that the fins and arrowhead
are capable of guiding the arrow (ok, it's turns like a wheel barrel, but
minor changes in course are possible) ... once Smart Materials get added in,
then the cost will increase, but the turning ability will rise enormously ...
and this thing has no engine ... as the person pulling the bow is the one
providing the ability for it to fly short distances ...

> Now, in terms of role playing, can you imagine what an arrow like you
> suggest would do to a rigger? Remember, riggers have a pretty deep link
> with the vehicles they control. They BECOME the vehicle. And I don't
> know about you, but I don't want to become anything that is going to
> violently collide with other solid objects on a regular basis.
> Controlling the arrow would be real cool, but landing it would be the
> real bitch.

Until the Sentry Rigger (Gun) System is installed, the arrows will be used for
reconnaissance mostly ... with him jacking out before impact (after roughly 12
seconds of flight time, or 4 combat turns, an eternity for a rigger or decker)
... and as for landing these things, lots of modifiers is all I can say ...

Mike
Message no. 36
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:43:38 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/98 6:52:20 AM !!!First Boot!!!, runefo@***.UIO.NO
writes:

> > Now, in terms of role playing, can you imagine what an arrow like you
> > suggest would do to a rigger? Remember, riggers have a pretty deep link
> > with the vehicles they control. They BECOME the vehicle. And I don't
> > know about you, but I don't want to become anything that is going to
> > violently collide with other solid objects on a regular basis.
> > Controlling the arrow would be real cool, but landing it would be the
> > real bitch.
>
> Well, according to the rules on rigged missiles, they give the rigger
> a 'gracious exit' as the missile impacts. Should do the same with
> these.. (might cost a bit, but then, it allready does). I kinda like
> the idea myself, even though it reminds me of an *extremely* poor
> movie I saw once... by the way, are the arrows 'normal' size or
> larger? I'd think they'd have to be larger... oh, and can
> you say VERY distinctive style? :)

Yes, the arrows are very distinctive ... made of light weight, but durable
materials ... reinforced silk cloth (real) for the shafts ... the heads are
made from composite plastic ... and the feathers (?!?) are also made from
special composite plastics too.

> That said, I don't know exactly how effective they should be... in
> fact what *would* the effect be? Same as aiming while 'on the way' ?
> What's the plan, K?

What ? If you are talking about becoming an Arrow Assassin, yes ... though
once the arrow has left the bow, my pc begins rolling his Pilot Fixed Wing
(Remote Operations / Arrows) Skill of 7 plus any dice from Control Pool
against the handling modifiers given for Vehicle Combat against the target ...

And that is the plan for my rigger ...

And I can't wait to see what happens once I get my hands on a sentry gun
system and a tactical computer ... and lots more cred for better arrows ...

Damn it ... I forgot to put Smartlink II integration into the damn thing ...
there goes that modifier ... oh well, until the next set of moola comes
rolling in through the door ...

Mike
Message no. 37
From: 'K' is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:38:30 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/98 1:52:19 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> Well, according to the rules on rigged missiles, they give the rigger
> a 'gracious exit' as the missile impacts. Should do the same with
> these.. (might cost a bit, but then, it allready does). I kinda like
> the idea myself, even though it reminds me of an *extremely* poor
> movie I saw once... by the way, are the arrows 'normal' size or
> larger? I'd think they'd have to be larger... oh, and can
> you say VERY distinctive style? :)

Size of the arrow??? Hmm...perhaps slightly larger, most definitely agree
with you there, say 20% or so, but NOT more than that and not enough to really
effect the "range" of the marksman.

Distinctive Style??? Wow, I bet Mike had never considered they, he could have
gotten more out of the character design. NOPE, CAN'T get it now... :P (j/k)

Gracious Exit? Well, yeah, that depends on the method he uses. In the games
here, we also have "Hot" and "Cold" Rigging Options, which is a
slightly off-
sided step from the "Captain's Chair" mode in R2. Basically it means whether
or not a "Control Pool" is accessible or not. As it stands now, the avionics
of the arrows are NOT in the final advanced stages as to allow for a "Gracious
Exit" per say (is this a special maneuver possibly that could be invented for
Riggers??? :)

> That said, I don't know exactly how effective they should be... in
> fact what *would* the effect be? Same as aiming while 'on the way' ?
> What's the plan, K?

That is part of the idea. Mike is intending these things to be the "one-shot:
Dead" thing, removing literally as much recoil as possible from the user, near
stealth as far as being "silenced", and having a FAR greater impactive thought
on things (the "arrow sticking out of the head routine").

The trick in this case is distance covered and "how long" the rigger would
have to actually aim, and how much of a "course correction" could actually be
made. That is part of the reason we used that "Speed vs. Strength/Power"
conversion you saw Mike using. Gives us a way of measuring out things as far
as "control tests" would possibly be concerned.

=K
Message no. 38
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:59:44 PDT
>First of all, wellcome to the list!
>
>Secondly, since one or more of the players, while sniping, would almost
>certainly be put in a position where they would be likely to cross open
>terrain, then that *is* a concern. But how would it affect the TN?
>
>The modifier for cover would be lost. If the open terrain was uneven,
though,
>there could be, at least at times, some cover.
>
>Secondly, the sniper has to make a choice - move quickly, and get fewer
tests
>against him, but with an 'obvious action' penalty' or creep slowly, and
get
>more tests, but with less of a penalty, or even a bonus.
>
>If he runs, then it's an obvious action of -6. (Waving and jumping up
and down
>would be an -8... not automatic, because they can, after all, not be
noticed
>even if they *try* to call attention to themselves.).
>Base 4, camo +4 (If it's still appropriate), stealth ~ +4, running -6,
>400M range would be slightly less, +3 perhaps, for a final TN of 9 for
>a skilled sniper. (Without the successes, the TN would be 5, which is
not
>good.. not good at all.). The difference between walking and running
>is fairly minimal.
>
>If he crawls then the TN would be between 6 and 8 higher, but there'd
be a
>few more tests made. With a TN of 15 he won't be instantly spotted, if
at all.
>
>As in anything else, think and you'll do better. Take your calculated
chances,
>live or die with the consequences. And treat both players and military
snipers
>with the same rules.
>
>And don't put a sniper on a player unless you plan to kill him.
>
>--
>
> ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
> -Ambrose Bierce
>
First of all, thanks! Secondly, about the open cover... I guess if the
sniper was a PC, then the GM would "HAVE" to make him go through open
terrain. However, I think that we have to take a few things into
consideration here, 1: the only way perception tests are going to happen
is if someone's there to make them 2: if the person making the
perception test to spot the sniper is making that test, shouldn't the
sniper also be making a test as well? We can't assume that the sniper is
crossing the open area with his glued to the ground! "Look out for
Charlie, up in the trees!" (sorry, a flashback to 'Nam!)
Basically, what I'm saying is that unless the person attemping to see
the sniper is also a sniper, he's probably not going to be alive long
enough to do anything about the sniper! Like I said before, "If you run,
you only die tired!"

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 39
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:06:19 PDT
>> Remember that movie, "the Professional"? Of course you do, think of
the
>> scene where Leon and the girl are on the roof, shooting that dork
that
>> was jogging in the park. Hell, the guy was almost too far to see with
>> the naked eye, imagine what kind of distances you can manage in the
>> 2050's!
>>
>> "Sniper: Run, and you'll only die tired."
>>
>> Renegade
>>
>
>
>Yes, indeed. My father shoots in competitions. He has a scope that can
>read the print on a gravestone from more than a quarter mile away.
>Imagine in 2057, with laser-scopes, etc...
>
>
>--Jett
>
>"Hey, Bill, are you Hindu?"
>"No, why?"
>"Cause you got a red dot on your forehead..."
>
Just had to let you know I laughed like hell when I read that! But I'm
glad you see my point sixty years from now, you won't even have to be in
the same state as the fellow you're trying to kill!


Renegade

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Message no. 40
From: Antonio Luccini <renegde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:29:36 PDT
>Arc Light wrote:
>*snip nobody watches the roofs*
>> The bodyguards? Rooftops are the most watched places when dealing
with
>> threats like this. Ever watched some VIP politicians visting town? TV
>> always shows police snipers on rooftops, searching for threats! And
you
>> can bet your a&% that there are some more in the dark, watching for
the
>> professionals..
>
>Open windows are, of course, also not completely ignored, to say the
>least, and the optics of shooting through glass, especially at an
>angle, isn't perfect. (I think.). It is not easy to pull things like
>that off.
>
>Which leaves us in the normal Shadowrunner's position - be creative
>or be dead.
>
>Most 'public' assassinations are from a guy in the crowd pulling a
>pistol and firing at the target, right? (Not all, but I think those
>incidents are a lot more common than a guy in the shadows with a
>rifle. Premeditation is harder to prove, for one.).
>
>It appears a safer bet to do things like this at non-public
>arrangements. The security measures when a VIP is out with his wife
>shopping, or eating dinner, or whatever, is a lot less than at large
>arrangements. Even then, it's not a safe deal, of course. But the
>effect of a 'public event' is a lot greater, so that's what runners
>might be hired for, right?
>
>(The current team supposedly is ethically aware, so they won't take
>missions like that. Which is good.).
>
>--
>Fade
>
>And the Prince of Lies said:
>"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
>Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
> -John Milton, Paradise Lost
>
Fade, Touche!

However, I return to my "the Professional" reference. How far are
the bodyguards eyes travelling when they're searching for threats? Not
nearly far enough, it's a big city! Also, sure police are on alert
during public events. But these guys live lives outside of the public
eye, there's ALWAYS a way through!

Renegade


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Message no. 41
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:49:22 GMT
>Gracious Exit? Well, yeah, that depends on the method he uses. In the games
>here, we also have "Hot" and "Cold" Rigging Options, which is a
slightly off-
>sided step from the "Captain's Chair" mode in R2. Basically it means
whether
>or not a "Control Pool" is accessible or not. As it stands now, the
avionics
>of the arrows are NOT in the final advanced stages as to allow for a "Gracious
>Exit" per say (is this a special maneuver possibly that could be invented for
>Riggers??? :)

Heh .. actually, it might, but only in certain situations, I'd think.

The gracious exit I commented on was for rigger - controlled naval-class
missiles. They dump the rigger just before the missile impacts.

Now if the missile gets shot down, hit by particle projectors or whatever
(Also new weapon in CyberPirates) then the rigger does not exit gracefully.

This leads to a conclusion that if the system detects imminent destruction,
then it can dump the rigger safely. But this is not so easily done, certainly
not against things like cannons and such. Normal missiles, though, takes enough
time to reach its target that they could allow for a gracious exit....
but that would be before any damage test is taken, not after, so he might
be thrown out needlessly.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 42
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:13:50 GMT
Renegade wrote:
*snip*
> Basically, what I'm saying is that unless the person attemping to see
>the sniper is also a sniper, he's probably not going to be alive long
>enough to do anything about the sniper! Like I said before, "If you run,
>you only die tired!"

The original question was your chance to notice someone at 400 meters. That
would be guard posts, bodyguards, whomever able to spot that sniper. They will
have a chance to see someone moving, even though it's slim. Neither is a
sniper infallible, nor immune to bad luck. And if the sniper starts shooting
everyone that might notice him, he's ruined the mission as it's fairly obvious
there's a sniper out there... unless the mission is simply to wreck havoc, of
course. And after the first shot everyone'll be scrambling for cover, making
the job that much harder.

At least that's what logic tells me.

If you mean a farmer sitting in the middle of the open area the sniper is
planning to move across, sure the sniper can spot him. Or a ten man patrol
moving close to the sniper's position. But shooting isn't the best option in
either case, and definitely not the only option.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 43
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:33:01 -0400
At 03:23 AM 5/31/98 EDT, you wrote:

<snipped rigger controlled arrow concept>

While I don't like the idea, on several levels, it does remind me of
something I saw on The Learning Channel or something. The whole hour long
show was about the whole "Future Trooper" concept.

In addition to the "camera mounted on the gun with display in the helmet"
type thing we're all familiar with, they also had "proto-riggers"
controlling drones from behind lines AND some propellerhead at a university
is researching "Smart Bullets."

These "smart bullets" were essentially a round with a head mounted on a
ball bearing, allowing it to alter it's direction (I don't recal anything
about the round being self-propelled).

So you'd use a standard sniper team. Have one guy as a spotter, who'd used
some device to designate an optimal target. The sniper would nearly point
at the correct area, then fire, without worrying about actually having to
be accurate himself because the bullet could do that.

These rounds would be somewhat large, and they had them in AV roles rather
than AP.

But it is interesting. It's amazing the things that we only dreamt about
as pure fiction a decade ago are on the verge of becoming reality, at least
within our lifetime.

Erik J.

Who's glad to be back on the list!
Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:15:43 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 15:33/1 Jun 98,...

> These "smart bullets" were essentially a round with a head mounted on a
> ball bearing, allowing it to alter it's direction (I don't recal anything
> about the round being self-propelled).
>
> So you'd use a standard sniper team. Have one guy as a spotter, who'd used
> some device to designate an optimal target. The sniper would nearly point
> at the correct area, then fire, without worrying about actually having to
> be accurate himself because the bullet could do that.

If these are designated rounds, where you have to point a laser at
the target to make them hit, the uses for a sniper team are
limited IMHO. They might make good weapons for a normal
battlefield, but when stealth is one of the key issues you don't
want to give up your advantage by sending the target a warning
before your actual shot.

OTOH if these rounds are fire-and-forget, I don't see a problem
with them as far as snipers are concerned, really.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I guess it never stops.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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Message no. 45
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:00:46 -0400
> If these are designated rounds, where you have to point a laser at
> the target to make them hit, the uses for a sniper team are
> limited IMHO. They might make good weapons for a normal
> battlefield, but when stealth is one of the key issues you don't
> want to give up your advantage by sending the target a warning
> before your actual shot.
>
> OTOH if these rounds are fire-and-forget, I don't see a problem
> with them as far as snipers are concerned, really.
>
Not necessarily. We usually think of lasers being the little red
dot that appears on people in movies. But there are also Ultraviolet and
Infrared lasers. In fact this sort of thing is what the military uses
for guiding in missiles. The projectile can see the dot since it sees in
UV or IR, but you, unless you have the mods for it (an even chance)
won't. Also unless you are expecting to get shot, or hell, even if you
were, you would never see the dot on your own head. Someone else would
have to notice it and point it out. And no snipers never shoot for the
heart, its easier in the movies but less effective in real life. They
usually shoot for the brainstem (which will destroy motor control in the
unlikely event they live).
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:18:10 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 10:00/2 Jun 98,...

> Not necessarily. We usually think of lasers being the little red
> dot that appears on people in movies. But there are also Ultraviolet and
> Infrared lasers. In fact this sort of thing is what the military uses
> for guiding in missiles. The projectile can see the dot since it sees in
> UV or IR, but you, unless you have the mods for it (an even chance)
> won't. Also unless you are expecting to get shot, or hell, even if you
> were, you would never see the dot on your own head. Someone else would
> have to notice it and point it out.

You're forgetting laser detectors. Put a number of them onto a
likely target, and/or in its vicinity, and the laser can give away
the sniper if it accidentally shines into the detector. Basically all
you need are the sensors that come with MILES gear or similar
military training system.

All this isn't really a problem for taking out civilians, but for
military sniper applications IMHO laser-designated rounds would
not always be a good choice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I guess it never stops.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 47
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:43:41 -0400
Not always, I agree. But how many runners do you know that walk
around in MILES gear when not running, or even when running for that
matter.
Either way it would be a nice thing to have in your arsenal.
Just spot without the laser first, if you see the target is not wearing
MILES gear, light him up and take him out, otherwise, change clips and
use normal ammo.

> > Not necessarily. We usually think of lasers being the little
> red
> > dot that appears on people in movies. But there are also Ultraviolet
> and
> > Infrared lasers. In fact this sort of thing is what the military
> uses
> > for guiding in missiles. The projectile can see the dot since it
> sees in
> > UV or IR, but you, unless you have the mods for it (an even chance)
> > won't. Also unless you are expecting to get shot, or hell, even if
> you
> > were, you would never see the dot on your own head. Someone else
> would
> > have to notice it and point it out.
>
> You're forgetting laser detectors. Put a number of them onto a
> likely target, and/or in its vicinity, and the laser can give away
> the sniper if it accidentally shines into the detector. Basically all
> you need are the sensors that come with MILES gear or similar
> military training system.
>
> All this isn't really a problem for taking out civilians, but for
> military sniper applications IMHO laser-designated rounds would
> not always be a good choice.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html -
> UIN5044116
> I guess it never stops.
> -> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru
> <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html
> <-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/
> <-
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
> Version 3.1: | Incubated into
> GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church
> of
> o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy
> Ball
> tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May
> 1998
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:45:27 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 11:43/3 Jun 98,...

> Not always, I agree. But how many runners do you know that walk
> around in MILES gear when not running, or even when running for that
> matter.

Not necessarily shadowrunners; I was more thinking about
military targets. Especially since the weapon that started this was
mentioned to be mainly anti-vehicle, it would be easy enough to
put laser detectors on most or all vehicles likely to be shot at, if
these kinds of systems become common. There have been RL
ideas to fit laser detectors to AFVs as standard, to know when a
laser rangefinder or target designator is being used against them.

> Either way it would be a nice thing to have in your arsenal.
> Just spot without the laser first, if you see the target is not wearing
> MILES gear, light him up and take him out, otherwise, change clips and
> use normal ammo.

Yep, should be feasible.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I guess it never stops.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 49
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:59:02 -0600
Thus spake Gurth:
>
> bryan.covington@****.COM said on 11:43/3 Jun 98,...
>
> > Not always, I agree. But how many runners do you know that walk
> > around in MILES gear when not running, or even when running for that
> > matter.
>
> Not necessarily shadowrunners; I was more thinking about
> military targets. Especially since the weapon that started this was
> mentioned to be mainly anti-vehicle, it would be easy enough to
> put laser detectors on most or all vehicles likely to be shot at, if
> these kinds of systems become common. There have been RL
> ideas to fit laser detectors to AFVs as standard, to know when a
> laser rangefinder or target designator is being used against them.
>
> > Either way it would be a nice thing to have in your arsenal.
> > Just spot without the laser first, if you see the target is not wearing
> > MILES gear, light him up and take him out, otherwise, change clips and
> > use normal ammo.
>
> Yep, should be feasible.

I'll admit, I haven't been following parts of this too closely, but
isn't something like this already in use in air combat? How does a fighter
know when an opponent have "locked on"? Or is this just a hollywoodism?
Couldn't something like this be used to detect laser targeting systems
(which, IMO, is reason enough not to use a laser targeting system)?

--
| Even Einstein objected to the idea
Mike Loseke | of wave-function collapse, calling
mike@*******.com | it "spooky action-at-a-distance."
Message no. 50
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:21:46 -0400
> I'll admit, I haven't been following parts of this too closely, but
> isn't something like this already in use in air combat? How does a
> fighter
> know when an opponent have "locked on"? Or is this just a
> hollywoodism?
> Couldn't something like this be used to detect laser targeting systems
> (which, IMO, is reason enough not to use a laser targeting system)?
>
In air to air combat the "Lock"s are all achieved via radar.
Radar is rather easy to detect. I think the indication that you have
been locked onto is just time based. That is, if you have been under
radar scrutiny for 3 seconds that indicated they have had time to lock
weapons on you (or something along those lines).
Message no. 51
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:12:47 +0000
Mike Loseke wrote:
*snip MILES gear to spot laser targeting*
> I'll admit, I haven't been following parts of this too closely, but
> isn't something like this already in use in air combat? How does a fighter
> know when an opponent have "locked on"? Or is this just a hollywoodism?
> Couldn't something like this be used to detect laser targeting systems
> (which, IMO, is reason enough not to use a laser targeting system)?

In air combat, the target illuminators are either radar or infrared,
and either active or passive. Both active IR and Radar project a
wide 'beam', which illuminates the entire target and a lot more. Thus
it can easily be detected, as sensors anywhere on the target would
detect it. Passive IR and Radar targeting relies on the target
emitting radar or IR (IR is also emitted by engine heat) and tracks
this. As it does not announce its presence in any way, passive
targeting does not provide a warning, but is also less accurate and
easier to foil. Laser targeting uses a 'narrow' beam, and illuminates
just a small dot, and unless the receptor is at that exact spot, it
will be quite hard to detect.

UNLESS

you had a smoke generator, or anything that kept some, or a lot, of
particles in the air. Then the particles would be illuminated by the
beam, giving a *PERFECT* line pointing at whoever is pointing a laser
at the target. A sensor designed to spot lasers in any range, UV to
IR through microwave and then some, by particle - reflected light
would eliminate that concern. Wether it could operate just from
background particles (probably, at least in downtown Seattle) or
needs a generator is an open question. A sniper should probably rely
on passive means of targeting (Not use flashlights, lasers,
etcetera.).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 52
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:36:15 -0700
>On 30 May 98 19:10:17 GMT, G_master@*******.COM (Arc Light) disseminated foul
>capitalist propaganda by writing:
>
>[...]
>>Yep, but the best do the unexpected, like lying in the open
>>terrain. Remember "The Sniper" with Tom Berenger? Suddenly, the grass
>>starts moving.... : )
>>When you are out for an Assasination, you have to deal with other
>>snipers who are just chasing any potential threat to their boss/ your
>>target...
>
>Counter-sniper fire... and counter-counter-sniper fire. Oh boy... ;))
>

And don't forget about the trace-buster-buster-buster. :)

....Reference: "The Big Hit."

-Rob
Message no. 53
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:57:17 +1200
Quoth Mike Loseke (0859 04-06-98 NZT):

<<SLICE>>
I'll admit, I haven't been following parts of this too closely,
but
isn't something like this already in use in air combat? How does
a fighter
know when an opponent have "locked on"? Or is this just a
hollywoodism?
Couldn't something like this be used to detect laser targeting
systems
(which, IMO, is reason enough not to use a laser targeting system)?

The 'lock on' warning is occasioned by the shift of the radar's
transmission frequency (meaning the actual frequency of the projected
radio waves) and/or pulse-repetition-frequency (how fast they are sent
out). These changes allow higher precision in tracking (meaning a
better chance of a hit).

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
Who saw Top Gun six times at the theatres when it came out, and
has been a fast-jet groupie/expert ever since...
Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:00:39 +0100
Mike Loseke said on 14:59/3 Jun 98,...

> I'll admit, I haven't been following parts of this too closely, but
> isn't something like this already in use in air combat? How does a fighter
> know when an opponent have "locked on"? Or is this just a hollywoodism?

Not sure, but fighter aircraft and combat helicopters do use radar
warning systems (receivers that tell the aircraft a radar is
painting it). Whether or not the system can tell if a radar has
locked on, I don't know; my area of interest lies more in AFVs
and helicopters than fighter aircraft. However, not many aircraft
use laser designators for air-to-air combat, AFAIK.

> Couldn't something like this be used to detect laser targeting systems
> (which, IMO, is reason enough not to use a laser targeting system)?

That is what I was suggesting, yes. Sensors like those used with
MILES gear, placed all over the vehicle and/or part of normal
infantry webbing would make the enemy think twice about using
lasers for targeting and rangefinding, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 55
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:00:01 -0600
Danyel N Woods wrote:
/
/ The 'lock on' warning is occasioned by the shift of the radar's
/ transmission frequency (meaning the actual frequency of the projected
/ radio waves) and/or pulse-repetition-frequency (how fast they are sent
/ out). These changes allow higher precision in tracking (meaning a
/ better chance of a hit).

And, a missile's radar is different than a fighters. So, you know when
they're looking for you, when they've locked on to you, and when
they've fired.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 56
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:47:33 -0400
> UNLESS
>
> you had a smoke generator, or anything that kept some, or a lot, of
> particles in the air. Then the particles would be illuminated by the
> beam, giving a *PERFECT* line pointing at whoever is pointing a laser
> at the target. A sensor designed to spot lasers in any range, UV to
> IR through microwave and then some, by particle - reflected light
> would eliminate that concern. Wether it could operate just from
> background particles (probably, at least in downtown Seattle) or
> needs a generator is an open question. A sniper should probably rely
> on passive means of targeting (Not use flashlights, lasers,
> etcetera.).
>
Ok great now we have a target, wearing full MILES gear
and shooting smoke from all over thier body. I think by this time the
laser is pretty much irrelevant, just shoot the goofy looking guy oozing
smoke.
Message no. 57
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:21:47 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 9:47/4 Jun 98,...

> Ok great now we have a target, wearing full MILES gear
> and shooting smoke from all over thier body. I think by this time the
> laser is pretty much irrelevant, just shoot the goofy looking guy oozing
> smoke.

<alexi sayle> You're being sar-caastic... </alexi sayle> :)

MILES gear doesn't stand out much, and all it needs to do is give
a warning. It could even tell the approximate direction relative to
the wearer (front or back at the very least), and the soldier could
then throw a smoke grenade into that direction, or dive into cover
that conceals from there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church of
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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 58
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:30:24 -0400
> > Ok great now we have a target, wearing full MILES
> gear
> > and shooting smoke from all over thier body. I think by this time
> the
> > laser is pretty much irrelevant, just shoot the goofy looking guy
> oozing
> > smoke.
>
> <alexi sayle> You're being sar-caastic... </alexi sayle> :)
>
> MILES gear doesn't stand out much, and all it needs to do is give
> a warning. It could even tell the approximate direction relative to
> the wearer (front or back at the very least), and the soldier could
> then throw a smoke grenade into that direction, or dive into cover
> that conceals from there.
>
True I was being somewhat sarcastic. However, the MILES
rigs I have seen (perhaps they have changed) were basically a vest like
rig with straps over the shoulders and one around the waist, with
sensors at various points around the body.
While this is hardly cumbersome it is neither very good
looking, nor very convenient. Either of these drawbacks would put it on
my $#!+ list. I would rather just deal with the possibility of getting
shot by a laser targeted bullet than lug all that crap on a run or worse
up on a podium with a crowd looking on.
Message no. 59
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:16:57 +0200
*SNIP detecting lasers by reflected light*
> Ok great now we have a target, wearing full MILES gear
>and shooting smoke from all over thier body. I think by this time the
>laser is pretty much irrelevant, just shoot the goofy looking guy oozing
>smoke.

I assume you're humorous here. The system mentioned was an 'area of effect'
detector that could be anywhere - rooftop, car, whatever. And it would make
MILES gear redundant.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 60
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:31:18 -0400
> *SNIP detecting lasers by reflected light*
> > Ok great now we have a target, wearing full MILES
> gear
> >and shooting smoke from all over thier body. I think by this time the
> >laser is pretty much irrelevant, just shoot the goofy looking guy
> oozing
> >smoke.
>
> I assume you're humorous here. The system mentioned was an 'area of
> effect'
> detector that could be anywhere - rooftop, car, whatever. And it would
> make
> MILES gear redundant.
>
You still have to flood the area with smoke, which is (IMHO)
worse.
Message no. 61
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:45:50 +0200
>> I assume you're humorous here. The system mentioned was an 'area of
>> effect'
>> detector that could be anywhere - rooftop, car, whatever. And it would
>> make
>> MILES gear redundant.
>>
> You still have to flood the area with smoke, which is (IMHO)
>worse.

That depends on the sensitivity of the system and the level of pollution.
In downtown Seattle, it would most likely not be neccessary, nor near
airports.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 62
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:19:02 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 14:30/4 Jun 98,...

> True I was being somewhat sarcastic. However, the MILES
> rigs I have seen (perhaps they have changed) were basically a vest like
> rig with straps over the shoulders and one around the waist, with
> sensors at various points around the body.
> While this is hardly cumbersome it is neither very good
> looking, nor very convenient. Either of these drawbacks would put it on
> my $#!+ list. I would rather just deal with the possibility of getting
> shot by a laser targeted bullet than lug all that crap on a run or worse
> up on a podium with a crowd looking on.

That is the basis of our misunderstanding: you're talking about
politicians and other civilian targets for assassination, I'm talking
about soldiers on a battlefield...

However, all you'd need would be small laser detectors,
preferably very flat ones. Those could be woven into the fabric of
clothes (the clothes would have to be specially-made, of course),
and linked to a small computer in the suit's pocket, worn on a
belt, or whatever.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church of
o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 63
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:01:19 -0400
> That is the basis of our misunderstanding: you're talking about
> politicians and other civilian targets for assassination, I'm talking
> about soldiers on a battlefield...
>
> However, all you'd need would be small laser detectors,
> preferably very flat ones. Those could be woven into the fabric of
> clothes (the clothes would have to be specially-made, of course),
> and linked to a small computer in the suit's pocket, worn on a
> belt, or whatever.
>
Well I assumed we were talking about Shadowrunners, that
being the nature of the list and all. . :)

However if you were talking about military units, it
would be no big deal. However you average trooper would probably not
warrant the cost that would be involved. Maybe as an officer thing, of
course this would point out your officers to enemy snipers, who wouldn't
be able to use laser sniping gear.
Message no. 64
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:44:27 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 15:01/5 Jun 98,...

> Well I assumed we were talking about Shadowrunners, that
> being the nature of the list and all. . :)

I see where the confusion comes from :)

> However if you were talking about military units, it
> would be no big deal. However you average trooper would probably not
> warrant the cost that would be involved. Maybe as an officer thing, of
> course this would point out your officers to enemy snipers, who wouldn't
> be able to use laser sniping gear.

So you equip the enlisted troops with dummy gear that looks just
like the officers' laser detection stuff but has none of the
receptors and electronics. It will be slightly more expensive than
normal web gear, but not as much as true detection gear for
everyone.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
Version 3.1: | Incubated into
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church of
o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 65
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:07:15 -0500
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:04:46 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Mark Ellis said on 12:48/7 Jun 98,...
<SNIP>
>> Another tangent, could you actually expand the use of this to a 360
degree
>> cybered viewing system ? Would be a nightmare to understand the input,
but
>> no one would ever stab you in the back again.

>I wouldn't, because the way I see RP is that they're a monitor,
>not a camera. You can't record something with a monitor, so to
>have 360 degree viewing I'd you need to stick a few cameras on a
>helmet and set them up so they look behind you and to your
>sides.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP Sig>

Well, actually, RP has the sensors you would need ... it uses them to
"decide" what to color to make the polymers ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 66
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:27:19 +0100
Alfredo B Alves said on 14:07/8 Jun 98,...

[360 degree viewing]
> Well, actually, RP has the sensors you would need ... it uses them to
> "decide" what to color to make the polymers ...

I know they do, but why bother with the RP if all you want are the
cameras?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Further Reading

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