Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject:	Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier &
Date:	Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:20:08 +0100

Message no. 1 G> According to Hexren, on Friday 20 February 2004 13:46 the word on the
G> street was...

>> ofcourse I am sorry please reblace all references to a product "exel"
>> that I made with <your favorite text/spreadshet proggy>.

G> And he scores again! ;) I make a character sheet with DTP software, and
G> without access to that, I'd use in a word processor with some DTP
G> features. Of course, you can use a spreadsheet, a text editor, or even a
G> bitmap editor, but it's a bit like hammering nails into a wall using the
G> back end of a screwdriver...

>> By the way I I think the Shadowrun Matrix rules and descriptions are
>> so abstract that you can't draw conclusions to the underling
>> technique from them. I mean html looks the roughly the same for
>> everybody regardless if it is served by MS Web Information Server or
>> an Apache running on Linux/Unix/whatever or something else. So coud it
>> be with the Matrix. I think

G> HTML is not an operating system, but a way to format data for human
G> consumption -- OTOH, KDE (http://www.kde.org) looks a lot like Windows
G> (http://www.microsoft.com/windows), too, but the two are not at all the
G> same. Not that I'm sure where I'm going with this comparison, though,
G> except to say that 1) you should be careful when claiming things where it
G> comes to computers, and 2) looks can be deceiving :)

---------------------------------------------

Well I think you missunderstood me what I meant is that what the
people see of the Matrix (the consensual Ilusion it is called I think)
coud be generated by many different Operating systems that lie under
the shiny graphics

From:	me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject:	Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier &
Date:	Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:22:33 +0100

Message no. 2 G> According to Justin, on Friday 20 February 2004 19:33 the word on the
G> street was...

>> I can use ed, but vi is more.... visual ;) To exit ed just type q
>> or q!

G> The handy manpage said Q, which I tried without effect... Probably because
G> I'd been typing in random letters first to see if it was actually doing
G> something :)

---------------------------------------------

if it is like vi first change into command mode propably by hitting
the ESC key followed by a ":" thats at least what it is on my sys ;)

From:	anders@**********.com (Anders)
Subject:	Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier
Date:	Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:29:01 -0000

Message no. 3 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Hexren" <me@******.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 7:20 PM
Subject: Re[2]: Software Crusades

>>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Well I think you missunderstood me what I meant is that what the
> people see of the Matrix (the consensual Ilusion it is called I think)
> coud be generated by many different Operating systems that lie under
> the shiny graphics
>
And that where our decker finds ways around the perfect defense, the
overwhelming attack ICE, etc.

From:	westiex@********.net (Craig West)
Subject:	Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier &
Date:	Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:57:14 +1000

Message no. 4 Quote
HTML is not an operating system, but a way to format data for human
consumption -- OTOH, KDE (http://www.kde.org) looks a lot like Windows
(http://www.microsoft.com/windows), too, but the two are not at all the
same. Not that I'm sure where I'm going with this comparison, though,
except to say that 1) you should be careful when claiming things where it
comes to computers, and 2) looks can be deceiving :)
End Quote

And even then you can get a lot of diversity. Different browsers handle
things differently - a friend was coding a new php based chat and the output
that I was receiving in Mozilla was completely different. Also some HTML
coding is browser specific.

One example- take a look at a few web pages. Do any of them have somewhere
on the page 'Best optimised for <insert browser>"?

Aramis

From:	gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier &
Date:	Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:11:05 +0100

Message no. 5 According to Craig West, on Saturday 21 February 2004 06:57 the word on the
street was...

> One example- take a look at a few web pages. Do any of them have
> somewhere on the page 'Best optimised for <insert browser>"?

That tends to reflect that whoever made the site, did it using just that
browser, and only did a very quick check in one or two others to see if it
at least looked presentable. Many will probably have skipped that second
step, even.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	paladinu@**.com (paladinu@**.com)
Subject:	FW: Software Crusades (was Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier
Date:	Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:35:28 -0600

Message no. 6 <snip>
And even then you can get a lot of diversity. Different browsers handle
things differently - a friend was coding a new php based chat and the output
that I was receiving in Mozilla was completely different. Also some HTML
coding is browser specific.

One example- take a look at a few web pages. Do any of them have somewhere
on the page 'Best optimised for <insert browser>"?
</snip>

Ugh, almost all client side script has to be carefully crafted for each
browser. You can't just make one section of code and make sure it works in
all of them, you usually have to completely re-write for each one. Mostly
because each browser has its own object model so Gecko based NS is different
from IE which is different again from NS4 (still relevant unfortunately).
There are standards but nobody agrees on which ones to use so they fail to
be standard :).

>From hacking standpoint, this creates interesting vulnerabilities and
situations in the interplay between the different software. I figure that
to be true in the future as well. There might a World Wide Matrix
Consortium originally setup by Fuchi, but plenty of systems still try to do
things their own way. Mistakes people make in programming become the holes
a decker can use to work some of their magic.

In my campaign, OSS is still a fringe movement as the corporate world still
can not get itself to buy into the model even after numerous success stories
(and a few failures). Of course as a decker you would never use OSS because
when the corporate security decker notices you are runnig GnuIC, he knows
every line of source and knows every chink in your armor. Custom
Programming is where the real magic is, and sharing your source is like
giving the other team your play book. Of course some Zealots out there
still use the stuff and it works reasonably well but the truly elite avoid
it.

Uriah

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