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From:	Ulrich Haupt sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:44:21 +0200

Message no. 1 Hi you out there in the wide world!

I have spend some time reading through the game master
screen and while reading some questions popped up my mind
which I couldn't answer though some of them are more
philosophical than a real problem but you will see. My
questions are aimed against the Critter Book and not the
screen itself.

Before I start I must admit that I have bought the german
version of the game master screen therefore some questions
might be results from bad translations or just wrong typing.

1) I found that the sabre tooth tiger has a damage code of
5S and a reach of zero while the normal tiger shows damage
codes of 10S with +1 reach? Did I miss something or is the
paranormal version that smaller and less dangerous than the
standard version?

2) In the section for the power of the awakened animals I
found a power 'astral armor' which allows astral armor but
only if the dual being projects astral. I always thought
dual beings are dual and can't project (except manifested
spirits but they don't count or do they?). And what is the
logic that their astral armor vanishes with materialization?

3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
this take into account that elementals can just shift into
the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
astral barrier)?

And now I have some more general questions ...

4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.

5) Did any character suffer deafness through load gun sounds
or does everybody wear ear protection?

6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
way. But what do you think?

Thanks for your attention

Sandman (who found a name brother last weekend in the
'Terminus experiment' btw a very good novel!)

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:27:40 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 2 Ulrich Haupt wrote:
/
/ 1) I found that the sabre tooth tiger has a damage code of
/ 5S and a reach of zero while the normal tiger shows damage
/ codes of 10S with +1 reach? Did I miss something or is the
/ paranormal version that smaller and less dangerous than the
/ standard version?

Well... a tiger's claws do almost as much damage as it's teeth, whereas
a sabre tooth tiger primarily uses it's teeth (it's sabres) to
eviscerate it's prey. So I'm assuming that the writer assumed that a
tiger can do more damage with it's claw/bite combo and earns a +1 reach
for it's claws, whereas the sabre tooth's sabre attack isn't as
effective and doesn't have the reach.

In which case the writer is in error.

Big cats kill their prey by: catching it and hanging on with their front
claws (while this causes damage it's rarely deadly damage), and then biting
the neck with a killing blow (either crushing the windpipe, severing a
jugguler vein/artery, or breaking the neck). If the bite isn't exact then
the big cat hangs on and will try to bite again and/or rake the prey with
their rear claws.

In game terms the first attack would be a grapple/bite with a +1
reach. If that attack succeeds then successive attacks would not have
the +1 reach, but the target would be grappled and the tiger would be
able to do more damage (12S?) since it would get to use it's rear
claws.

The sabre tooth should have the +1 reach that the tiger has. It would
also have to "reach" out and snag it's prey with it's front claws.

However, even today dinasaurologists (can't remember the technical term)
aren't exactly sure how the sabre tooth killed it's prey.

/ And now I have some more general questions ...
/
/ 4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
/ have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
/ They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
/ and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
/ are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
/ fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
/ 5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.

Well, in Darwinian terms I assume that critters such as the Harpy are
not prey for spirits and elementals.

If it's a combat encounter and it's a mage with an elemental vs a
Harpy, then the Harpy is just SOL.

Critters such as the Harpy survive by choosing a food source that they
can get. If weak dual natured critter preys on man then you can assume
it goes after the weak (the sick, the young, and the old) and not
targets like Street Sams and Mages.

/ 5) Did any character suffer deafness through load gun sounds
/ or does everybody wear ear protection?

I don't make an issue of it in my games <shrug>. The only time it's
come up is following big explosions in which case we just assume that
the PCs hear ringing in their ears for a few days.

/ 6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
/ us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
/ of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
/ use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
/ while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
/ mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
/ murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
/ way. But what do you think?

The problem is that the drone would have a *very* hard time recording
the spells. Even if it's something visible like a fireball it's not
obvious that it's coming from the mage that cast it. I think the only
valid witness for such an event is another mage, or an "expert".

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+
b++ DI++++ D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:02:28 +0200

Message no. 3 According to Ulrich Haupt, at 17:44 on 21 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> 1) I found that the sabre tooth tiger has a damage code of
> 5S and a reach of zero while the normal tiger shows damage
> codes of 10S with +1 reach? Did I miss something or is the
> paranormal version that smaller and less dangerous than the
> standard version?

I think this is a fair example of someone deciding on game stats without
reference to related items... What you describe is exactly the same in the
English version of the Critters book. Looking at the description, the
saber-tooth cat is smaller than a tiger by about 30% or so (which is
roughly historically correct, I believe) but the reduction in game stats
is somewhat too big for this size difference, I feel. YMMV, though.

> 2) In the section for the power of the awakened animals I
> found a power 'astral armor' which allows astral armor but
> only if the dual being projects astral. I always thought
> dual beings are dual and can't project

Some dual beings can astrally project (like dragons). Most can't, however,
so the power would make no sense if given to a critter that cannot
astrally project.

> (except manifested spirits but they don't count or do they?).

They're astral critters that can become dual natured, not dual-natured
critters that can astrally project. Spirits could benefit from astral
armor in a big way.

> And what is the logic that their astral armor vanishes with
> materialization?

That's not what the English book says; I quote: "Astral armor does not
protect the creature from physical attacks." Materialization is not
mentioned at all, and it seems to me that a materialized spirit would
still get astral armor against attacks originating in the astral plane.

> 3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
> this take into account that elementals can just shift into
> the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
> astral barrier)?

This has one of the fuzziest things about air elementals for the past 10
years, IMHO. Apparently, confinement in enclosed spaces will prevent the
elemental from leaving, even through astral space, but how exactly do you
define containment? IOW, how small must the sealed area be to count as
confining an elemental?

I have no idea...

> 4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
> have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
> They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
> and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
> are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
> fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
> 5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.

Sure, but do spirits hunt? I doubt it. Astral-only critters don't need
food, except for some in the form of Essence (through the Essence Loss
weakness and Essence Drain power). A harpy, though it may be weak, only
needs to run away from other physical critters. My guess is that it uses
its dual nature to perceive approaching enemies on the astral plane.

> 5) Did any character suffer deafness through load gun sounds
> or does everybody wear ear protection?

I suppose this isn't critter-related any longer, else the question makes
very little sense...

Anyway, you could assign a TN modifier for hearing-based Perception tests
after firing a gun. I don't know how high this modifier should be, but +2
sounds nice to me.

> 6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
> us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
> of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
> use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
> while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
> mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
> murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
> way. But what do you think?

Thankfully I'm no US lawyer, but might something like this not fall under
entrapment? (That is, making someone commit a crime so you can catch them
for it.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:12:08 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 4 Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Ulrich Haupt, at 17:44 on 21 Apr 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ > 3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
/ > this take into account that elementals can just shift into
/ > the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
/ > astral barrier)?
/
/ This has one of the fuzziest things about air elementals for the past 10
/ years, IMHO. Apparently, confinement in enclosed spaces will prevent the
/ elemental from leaving, even through astral space, but how exactly do you
/ define containment? IOW, how small must the sealed area be to count as
/ confining an elemental?
/
/ I have no idea...

Neither do I, but I just had an image of a mage holding a bunch of
balloons :)

Or better yet, if your character is a female mage and you want get your
air elementals into through security go as one of those strippers
covered with balloons (they pop the balloons as they dance until there
are none left...). Pop. Pop. Pop. "Go get em boys!"

:)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+
b++ DI++++ D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++

From:	Joerg-Olaf "JOM" Melcher jom@*******.de
Subject:	AW: some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:21:53 +0100

Message no. 5 Gurth [gurth@******.nl] schrieb

> > 6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
> > us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
> > of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
> > use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
> > while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
> > mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
> > murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
> > way. But what do you think?
>
> Thankfully I'm no US lawyer, but might something like this not fall under
> entrapment? (That is, making someone commit a crime so you can catch them
> for it.)

In German law it would be self defence, and as such you could use everything
on hand. Even if it is acuiered illeagel.
That doesnt matter as long as you are using it "to defend yourself or
another person against an lawless assault underway".

JOM

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:44:15 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 4/21/99 11:04:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> > 3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
> > this take into account that elementals can just shift into
> > the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
> > astral barrier)?
>
> This has one of the fuzziest things about air elementals for the past 10
> years, IMHO. Apparently, confinement in enclosed spaces will prevent the
> elemental from leaving, even through astral space, but how exactly do you
> define containment? IOW, how small must the sealed area be to count as
> confining an elemental?
>

compunded by the fact that other elementals do not have such a restriction
that I recall.
If a fire elemental was in a sealed room, would he use up all teh oxygen
and die?

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	AW: some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:19:20 -0400

Message no. 7 Joerg-Olaf "JOM" Melcher wrote:

> Gurth [gurth@******.nl] schrieb
>
> > > 6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
> > > us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
> > > of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
> > > use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
> > > while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
> > > mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
> > > murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
> > > way. But what do you think?
> >
> > Thankfully I'm no US lawyer, but might something like this not fall under
> > entrapment? (That is, making someone commit a crime so you can catch them
> > for it.)
>
> In German law it would be self defence, and as such you could use everything
> on hand. Even if it is acuiered illeagel.
> That doesnt matter as long as you are using it "to defend yourself or
> another person against an lawless assault underway".
>
> JOM

Of course, couldn't the government then get you for using or possessing
something illegal? For example, if you are carrying an unregistered weapon, and
then use it to defend yourself, couldn't you be charged for carrying an
unregistered weapon?

--Strago

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:16:32 +0200

Message no. 8 > Ulrich Haupt [SMTP:sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de] wrote:
>
<snipping>

>5) Did any character suffer deafness through load gun sounds
>or does everybody wear ear protection?
I only take it into account if runners are using amplified
hearing without dampers. Otherwise it I just ignore it, although you
have a point there, I'm considering to include it in future games!

>6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
>us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
>of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
>use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
>while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
>mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
>murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
>way. But what do you think?

Not being a lawyer I would think that the picture would not be
accepted as sufficient evidence, certainly not in an era where
manipulating data is as easy as riding a bike. A second concern would
be how the evidence was obtained: pictures taken with a drone would rise
the question to examine the drone (I wouldn't like this as a rigger!),
being a witness why did you not interfere and try to help a fellow
citizen (knowing that this is no longer the state of mind at 2060, it
could still be used as an argument in court now, couldn't it).

Sven :)

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:52:25 -0500

Message no. 9 :1) I found that the sabre tooth tiger has a damage code of
:5S and a reach of zero while the normal tiger shows damage
:codes of 10S with +1 reach? Did I miss something or is the
:paranormal version that smaller and less dangerous than the
:standard version?

Could be. I dunno.

:2) In the section for the power of the awakened animals I
:found a power 'astral armor' which allows astral armor but
:only if the dual being projects astral. I always thought
:dual beings are dual and can't project (except manifested
:spirits but they don't count or do they?). And what is the
:logic that their astral armor vanishes with materialization?

Some dual natured critters can project astrally, but when they do, only
the ones with astral armor get, well, astral armor. When they are in thier
bodies, thier stats are identical on both planes- including armor. Thats
what being dual natured MEANS.

:3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
:this take into account that elementals can just shift into
:the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
:astral barrier)?

I'd say they are safe if free to travlke astrally. The disrtuption is
at GM descretion anyhow.

:4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
:have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
:They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
:and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
:are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
:fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
:5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.

What do they need to survive against? They have a big adavantage
against thier normal brtehrain, in that they can easily spot thier normal
prey (small animals). "Very Powerful Spirits" are very, very, very rare,
and would not inatley bear a (for example) Harpy any ill will. If there was
an area spirits frequented, the Harpy's would be sart enough to stay away,
breading and feading elswhere.
Or do you mean, how do they survive combat against meathumans, especialy
metas with magic? They often don't- man is the most succesful predator on
earth.

:5) Did any character suffer deafness through load gun sounds
:or does everybody wear ear protection?

Theres no current rule for that effect, but its genrally a good idea to
get a sound suppressor 9at least) when firing a gun bigger than a medium
pistol inside. Actual lasting deafness is more the result of long term use,
but in combat, you want your senses sharp, and having a ringing in your ears
from your own shots is no fun.

:6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
:us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
:of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
:use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
:while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
:mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
:murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
:way. But what do you think?

Eh. If the cops cared more about the gangers than the mage, and there
was other evidence to back it up (photos are easy to fake), it might
eventually lead to a idictment, and then a trial. But, since you specified
the magic would be used in self defense, they guy would gfet off- self
defesive combat magic is OK- hell, if he's liscened to use those spells,
there might not even be much questioning. The charge could not be murder 1,
in any case, if there was any question of self defense.
Eventually, he could even get a few friends on the police force, and
some good press for being a "good citizen"- not what you want. Besides, if
you can shoot him with a camera...

Mongoose

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:08:25 EDT

Message no. 10 In a message dated 4/21/1999 12:25:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

> / 1) I found that the sabre tooth tiger has a damage code of
> / 5S and a reach of zero while the normal tiger shows damage
> / codes of 10S with +1 reach? Did I miss something or is the
> / paranormal version that smaller and less dangerous than the
> / standard version?
>
> Well... a tiger's claws do almost as much damage as it's teeth, whereas
> a sabre tooth tiger primarily uses it's teeth (it's sabres) to
> eviscerate it's prey. So I'm assuming that the writer assumed that a
> tiger can do more damage with it's claw/bite combo and earns a +1 reach
> for it's claws, whereas the sabre tooth's sabre attack isn't as
> effective and doesn't have the reach.

I would like to point out that the Sabre' Toothed beastie in PAoNA awakened
from MOUNTAIN LION stock, and not from Tiger stock...

Just a thought.

-K

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:16:46 EDT

Message no. 11 In a message dated 4/21/1999 3:38:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> :3) Air elementals can be captured in air tight rooms. Does
> :this take into account that elementals can just shift into
> :the astral space and leave their prison (as long there is no
> :astral barrier)?
>
>
> I'd say they are safe if free to travlke astrally. The disrtuption is
> at GM descretion anyhow.

Something that we often allow is a "suprise test" using the Force of the
being against the action(s) taken to seal the room. If the sealer-uppers
win, *bamf*, the elemental is disrupted...if the elemental wins...well, lots
of options really...

-K

From:	Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:56:32 -0800

Message no. 12 On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:44:15 Schizi wrote:

>compunded by the fact that other elementals do not have such a restriction
>that I recall.
> If a fire elemental was in a sealed room, would he use up all teh oxygen
>and die?

Honestly, I would just ignore this section about Air Elementals (wherever you read it).
Elementals can go astral and pass through solid objects (like many other spirits). If you
put them in a room, jar, etc. they can easily go astral and get out. I don't see the
"trap an elemental" rules as being consistent with the other rules presented.
Now, you might be able to trap them with an astral barrier or ward of some kind if you
erect it while they are inside (via an anchoring or whatever). If they aren't strong
enough to break through the barrier, they would be trapped.

But then you get to another question: can they just leave to their home metaplane anyway
and come back from there?

Justin

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From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:21:12 -0500

Message no. 13 On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:12:08 -0600 (MDT) David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.carl.org> writes:
>Gurth wrote:
<SNIP>
>Or better yet, if your character is a female mage and you want get your
>air elementals into through security go as one of those strippers
>covered with balloons (they pop the balloons as they dance until there
>are none left...). Pop. Pop. Pop. "Go get em boys!"
>
>:)

You know ... the mental imagery I got from that was not what was intended
... uhm ... interesting. :)

--
D. Ghost (wondering how many female mages have trained attack breasts ...
:)
(aka Pixel)
Free IQ test: Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete

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From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:15:22 EDT

Message no. 14 In a message dated 4/21/99 10:52:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> You know ... the mental imagery I got from that was not what was intended
> ... uhm ... interesting. :)
>
> --
> D. Ghost (wondering how many female mages have trained attack breasts ...
> :)

I dunno about female Mages, but I wouldnt put it past a certain femal Physad
I know named Buffy....

From:	Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:16:25 +1000

Message no. 15 DGhost writes:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:12:08 -0600 (MDT) David Buehrer
> >Or better yet, if your character is a female mage and you want get your
> >air elementals into through security go as one of those strippers
> >covered with balloons (they pop the balloons as they dance until there
> >are none left...). Pop. Pop. Pop. "Go get em boys!"
1 2 3
> >
> >:)
>
> You know ... the mental imagery I got from that was not what was intended
> ... uhm ... interesting. :)
>
> --
> D. Ghost (wondering how many female mages have trained attack breasts ...
> :)

And how many have three...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:05:44 +0200

Message no. 16 > -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Joerg-Olaf "JOM"
> Melcher
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:22 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: AW: some easy(?) questions

> In German law it would be self defence, and as such you could use
> everything
> on hand. Even if it is acuiered illeagel.
> That doesnt matter as long as you are using it "to defend yourself or
> another person against an lawless assault underway".

Though you would be sentenced for possesion of e.g. weapons or the like.
And you have to use adequate force, otherwise you will be sentenced for
use of excessive force.

arclight@**************.com
[BABY #361]------------[ICQ 14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspects,
would they?

From:	Joerg-Olaf "JOM" Melcher jom@*******.de
Subject:	AW: some easy(?) questions
Date:	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:20:01 +0100

Message no. 17 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:22 PM
> > To: shadowrn@*********.org
> > Subject: AW: some easy(?) questions
>
> > In German law it would be self defence, and as such you could use
> > everything
> > on hand. Even if it is acuiered illeagel.
> > That doesnt matter as long as you are using it "to defend yourself or
> > another person against an lawless assault underway".
>
> Though you would be sentenced for possesion of e.g. weapons or the like.
> And you have to use adequate force, otherwise you will be sentenced for
> use of excessive force.
>
> arclight@**************.com

You would�t even sentenced for the possesion.
And with a good lawyer you could even use "self defence excess" and not get
a sentence.

JOM

From:	Ulrich Haupt sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:14:13 +0200

Message no. 18 Mongoose (and many others wrote (thanx btw)):

<snip various parts>

> :4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
> :have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
> :They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
> :and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
> :are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
> :fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
> :5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.
>
> What do they need to survive against? They have a big adavantage
> against thier normal brtehrain, in that they can easily spot thier normal
> prey (small animals). "Very Powerful Spirits" are very, very, very rare,
> and would not inatley bear a (for example) Harpy any ill will. If there was
> an area spirits frequented, the Harpy's would be sart enough to stay away,
> breading and feading elswhere.

In essence most answered that weak dual critters don't have
too much to frear from the astral. Though I understand the
logic why they have no or just a few astral enemies but then
I don't understand why mages have to care that much about
active foci. Maybe there are o lot more bad minded astral
beings in cities than there are in the wilderness (I'm sure
there are). But the most threatening event 'Hey - a free
spirit which has had a bad day because it couldn't earn at
least one Karma point has decided to destroy your force 2
power focus' seems not to be realistic (I must admit that
this wasn't one of best examples). The only real problems
seem to be mages and elementals from corporate sites who
attack intruding runners. But while in the streets I don't
see who or what should attack a mage or his magical eqipment
from the astral space. (But bug are always good for a
surprise (eg))

> :6) This last one is more a problem for the lawers between
> :us. In a moment of evelness my group thought about a method
> :of killing a rival mage. Their idea was to force the mage to
> :use his combat spells in self defence (against a go-gang)
> :while taking pictures with a drone from far above. If the
> :mage kills a gang member with his magic it would 'always be
> :murder' of first(?) degree. Fortunately they found another
> :way. But what do you think?
>
> Eh. If the cops cared more about the gangers than the mage, and there
> was other evidence to back it up (photos are easy to fake), it might
> eventually lead to a idictment, and then a trial. But, since you specified
> the magic would be used in self defense, they guy would gfet off- self
> defesive combat magic is OK- hell, if he's liscened to use those spells,
> there might not even be much questioning. The charge could not be murder 1,
> in any case, if there was any question of self defense.
> Eventually, he could even get a few friends on the police force, and
> some good press for being a "good citizen"- not what you want. Besides, if
> you can shoot him with a camera...

This leads me to the direct question:
Which rule has the higher priority ?
a) self defence
b) 'a magical death is always murder'

Sandman

From:	Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:32:37 +0200

Message no. 19 Ulrich Haupt wrote:
>
> Mongoose (and many others wrote (thanx btw)):
>
> <snip various parts>
>
> > :4) How do weak dual critters survive (like the harphy). They
> > :have a very low initiative compared to truly astral beings.
> > :They have to take care of both planes (physical and astral)
> > :and often don't hav the chance to flee while astral enemies
> > :are fast and can always 'fly'. Dual critters are like cannon
> > :fodder for not very powerful spirits ( I think about force
> > :5-6) especially if those spirits have ranged attacks.
> >
> > What do they need to survive against? They have a big adavantage
> > against thier normal brtehrain, in that they can easily spot thier normal
> > prey (small animals). "Very Powerful Spirits" are very, very, very
rare,
> > and would not inatley bear a (for example) Harpy any ill will. If there was
> > an area spirits frequented, the Harpy's would be sart enough to stay away,
> > breading and feading elswhere.
>
> In essence most answered that weak dual critters don't have
> too much to frear from the astral. Though I understand the
> logic why they have no or just a few astral enemies but then
> I don't understand why mages have to care that much about
> active foci. Maybe there are o lot more bad minded astral
> beings in cities than there are in the wilderness (I'm sure
> there are). But the most threatening event 'Hey - a free
> spirit which has had a bad day because it couldn't earn at
> least one Karma point has decided to destroy your force 2
> power focus' seems not to be realistic (I must admit that
> this wasn't one of best examples). The only real problems
> seem to be mages and elementals from corporate sites who
> attack intruding runners. But while in the streets I don't
> see who or what should attack a mage or his magical eqipment
> from the astral space. (But bug are always good for a
> surprise (eg))

Well, who says that the threat has to be a spirit? In the bad-ass world
of Shadowrun, I suppose that walking around with an active focus would
draw as much attention as walking around with 2 shotguns slung on your
back and a belt full of grenades. Or using your cellular phone after
dark in Johannesburg...
>
> Sandman

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:26:05 +0200

Message no. 20 According to Ulrich Haupt, at 9:14 on 23 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> In essence most answered that weak dual critters don't have too much to
> frear from the astral. Though I understand the logic why they have no or
> just a few astral enemies but then I don't understand why mages have to
> care that much about active foci. Maybe there are o lot more bad minded
> astral beings in cities than there are in the wilderness (I'm sure there
> are).

I think you pretty much answered your own question: security forces.
Regular magicians, working for a corp or something, probably carry active
foci as a matter of course. Shadowrunners, and others who like to do
things they're not allowed to, need to be more stealthy and would try to
keep themselves less open to attack, so switching off foci makes sense for
them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	some easy(?) questions
Date:	Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:03:02 -0500

Message no. 21 :In essence most answered that weak dual critters don't have
:too much to frear from the astral. Though I understand the
:logic why they have no or just a few astral enemies but then
:I don't understand why mages have to care that much about
:active foci.

They don't- most folks could walk around with an active sustaining foci
clipped on them ,and be perfectly safe, even if they were mundane..
SHADOWRUNNER mages have to worry about active foci, because they go up
against magical security, and they don't want to reveal themselevs or loose
the foci.

:This leads me to the direct question:
:Which rule has the higher priority ?
:a) self defence
:b) 'a magical death is always murder'

Answer: b) Self defense. Otherwise, there would not be much point to
allowing the publeic acsess to regestered combat spells, no? There are
other legitimate uses as well- basically, anybody authorized to use lethal
force can use a lethal spell and not be charged with murder (for example,
police and military). A person who is NOT liscensed to use such a spell
could get in trouble for using it, even in cases of self defense.
The effect of the law is NOT to say that killing with magic is
automatically murder- instead, killing with magic is never a mistake, and
hence is never less than murder 1, in cases where it is in fact illegal
homicide.
Murder 1generally requires that you provably intended to kill a
specific person- murder 2 usually only requires that you acted with depraved
indiference to human life. Laws on this even vary in thier technical
specifics and language from state to state in the U.S.A.

Mongoose

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