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Message no. 1
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:15:07 GMT
I've never actually played a decker but - having GMed for one - I thought I
was pretty sure of the rules, until today, I came across the following
problems that I would really like help with.

1) When designing a frame, is the memory size of the programmes it packs
included in its memory size? eg. my rating 8 smart frame takes up 384MP
(what with having a multiplier of 6). It includes an Armor 3 programme,
Medic 3 and Attack-S 5 which take up 27MP, 36MP and 100MP respectively. Is
the size of the programme 384MP or 547MP?
and
2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost based on
rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in rating 7-9
programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!

Thanks

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 2
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 14:51:26 -0400
> >2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost based
> on
> >rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in rating
> 7-9
> >programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!
>
Not sure on the answer for either since I don't have the books here.
But SR has always been hard on prices for computer stuff. Take for example
a standard desktop computer. For 2000 MP it cost like 20000 Y. I never did
understand their prices for computer eq or MP.

Sorry I couldn't help

DL
Message no. 3
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:34:21 +0200
> 1) When designing a frame, is the memory size of the programmes it
packs
> included in its memory size? eg. my rating 8 smart frame takes up
384MP
> (what with having a multiplier of 6). It includes an Armor 3
programme,
> Medic 3 and Attack-S 5 which take up 27MP, 36MP and 100MP
respectively. Is
> the size of the programme 384MP or 547MP?
> and

It's a 384MP-Frame. But don't forget that you have to load the programs
in the frame...

> 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost
based on
> rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in rating
7-9
> programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!

Yes, it does. High-Rating programs aren't cheap :-)

Irian
Message no. 4
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:54:30 GMT
>From: "Florian Schaetz (Irian)" <iryan@********.de>
> > 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost
>based on
> > rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in rating
>7-9
> > programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!
>
>Yes, it does. High-Rating programs aren't cheap :-)

So the above Frame would cost all of 192000¥ before the cost of the
programmes that get loaded into it?!? Thats almost as much as a Novatech
Slimcase deck! Hell, thats more than a house!!

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 5
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:05:37 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith [SMTP:phil_urbanhell@*******.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:55 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: Some matrix queries

>From: "Florian Schaetz (Irian)" <iryan@********.de>
> > 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x
(cost
>based on
> > rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in
rating
>7-9
> > programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!
>
>Yes, it does. High-Rating programs aren't cheap :-)

So the above Frame would cost all of 192000¥ before the cost of the
programmes that get loaded into it?!? Thats almost as much as a
Novatech
Slimcase deck! Hell, thats more than a house!!

Not only more than a house but 92000¥ more than one month of Luxury living.
Who is going to pay that much for a program when they can live in luxury? I
have always lowered the cost for programs and most computer equipment buy
allot. Deckers are the poorest type of characters there are. A street
Samurai can get get Delta move by Wire and some really nice custom guns
before a Decker could get a deck and programs to be equivalent to the Sam in
the Matrix.

I am not sure how much Matrix and VR2.0 are different, I just picked up
Matrix, but in VR2.0 I think I lowered almost all price by 10% and my
players deckers where still begging for money while my Street Sams and Mages
had left overs.

DL
Message no. 6
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:15:06 +0200
> > > 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost
> >based on
> > > rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in
rating
> >7-9
> > > programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!
> >
> >Yes, it does. High-Rating programs aren't cheap :-)
>
> So the above Frame would cost all of 192000¥ before the cost of the
> programmes that get loaded into it?!? Thats almost as much as a
Novatech
> Slimcase deck! Hell, thats more than a house!!

Try to program it yourself. it will take a while, but when you're
finished, you could even sell it...

Irian
Message no. 7
From: Maelwys wraith@************.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:50:30 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Florian Schaetz (Irian)" <iryan@********.de>
Subject: Re: Some matrix queries


> Try to program it yourself. it will take a while, but when you're
> finished, you could even sell it...

Of course, it's not like the programming rules are all that coherent
either...768 base days to program...taking the example from VR2...getting 4
successes (two bought with Karma)...192 days..which is a little over 6
months. Then add in task bonuses, and its still a long time working :) All
this is VR2 of course. Matrix times may, or maynot be better, often times
the lack of task bonuses get in the way of lower programming times.

Guess it depends on if you have the time or the money...

There was a post a couple of months ago after GC done by Tzeentch on
comparing programming times in VR2 and Matrix. I'd suggest people take a
look at it, see what they think. (and the resulting comments on it).

Maelwys
Message no. 8
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:28:17 +0200
> > Try to program it yourself. it will take a while, but when you're
> > finished, you could even sell it...
>
> Of course, it's not like the programming rules are all that coherent
> either...768 base days to program...taking the example from
VR2...getting 4
> successes (two bought with Karma)...192 days..which is a little over 6
> months. Then add in task bonuses, and its still a long time working
:) All
> this is VR2 of course. Matrix times may, or maynot be better, often
times
> the lack of task bonuses get in the way of lower programming times.

Oh, I think 48 days for a Rating 8 Frame ist not a long time... (You got
a task bonus of +3 for double memory and a programming shop).

Matrix Rules:

No Task Bonus any longer. Base Time is Size (not double size). Make a
computer(prog) roll against the rating, modified by some things (double
memory adds -2 for example). You have to make a programming-plan before
(using a special knowledge-Skill), every success there gives you
another -1 on the roll. I would prepare a really good plan, using a
computer with double memory (or perhaps rent a time on a mainframe,
gives you -1 to -4)... So when you had 4 success on 8 you now have
perhaps 8 successes on 4... Comes again to 48 days :-)
Oh, and btw: With a programming shop you get bonus-dice.

> Guess it depends on if you have the time or the money...

As I said... 48 days are not too long, I think.

> There was a post a couple of months ago after GC done by Tzeentch on
> comparing programming times in VR2 and Matrix. I'd suggest people
take a
> look at it, see what they think. (and the resulting comments on it).

I can compare them myself... :-). I would say, it depends. Imho VR2
Rules were better for Deckers with lower skill...

Irian
Message no. 9
From: Mike & Jill Johnson shadowrn@******.net
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:29:10 -0600
At 05:05 PM 10/24/00 -0400, you wrote:

>I am not sure how much Matrix and VR2.0 are different, I just picked up
>Matrix, but in VR2.0 I think I lowered almost all price by 10% and my
>players deckers where still begging for money while my Street Sams and Mages
>had left overs.
>
>DL

I just changed from being our groups GM to being the groups Decker. The
easiest work around for this is to have the decker write his or her own
programs. Much much cheaper in yen but a lot more expensive in time.

Mike
Message no. 10
From: Mike & Jill Johnson shadowrn@******.net
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:32:07 -0600
At 04:50 PM 10/24/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Of course, it's not like the programming rules are all that coherent
>either...768 base days to program...taking the example from VR2...getting 4
>successes (two bought with Karma)...192 days..which is a little over 6
>months. Then add in task bonuses, and its still a long time working :) All
>this is VR2 of course. Matrix times may, or maynot be better, often times
>the lack of task bonuses get in the way of lower programming times.

This made me wonder also. I've just started getting into programming in
the real world and the times seemed way off to me. So I went over and
talked with one of the programmers here at work (Thankfully he's a gamer
also and didn't think I was crazy asking about this). Turns out that the
large programs and the times it takes are actually pretty accurate.

Mike
Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0500
>>>I am not sure how much Matrix and VR2.0 are different, I just picked up
Matrix, but in VR2.0 I think I lowered almost all price by 10% and my
players deckers where still begging for money while my Street Sams and Mages
had left overs.
>>>

Why? If the samurai and mage could afford to upgrade, but the decker could
not, why could the deckers opposition afford to upgrade? If being a top
notch super decker is so costly, and being a top notch samurai is relatively
cheap, what does that mean? It means the samurai faces more top notch
samurai and the decker faces more folks who can't afford good programs.
That makes the samurais job harder, and the deckers job easier.

-Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:13:23 -0500
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:15:07 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> I've never actually played a decker but - having GMed for one - I
> thought I
> was pretty sure of the rules, until today, I came across the
> following
> problems that I would really like help with.
>
> 1) When designing a frame, is the memory size of the programmes it
> packs
> included in its memory size? eg. my rating 8 smart frame takes up
> 384MP
> (what with having a multiplier of 6). It includes an Armor 3
> programme,
> Medic 3 and Attack-S 5 which take up 27MP, 36MP and 100MP
> respectively. Is
> the size of the programme 384MP or 547MP?

No, the total size of the frame is the size of the frame core plus the
loaded utilities. In the above example, the size 384 MP + 27 MP + 36 MP +
100 MP, or 547 MP.

> and
> 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost
> based on
> rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in
> rating 7-9
> programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!

I would say as of Matrix, it's Design Size. Yes, that would mean the
really spiffy programs cost a bundle... 121,500¥ is cheap for an Armor 9
program, IMO.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>>I am not sure how much Matrix and VR2.0 are
different, I just picked up Matrix, but in VR2.0 I
think I lowered almost all price by 10% and my players
deckers where still begging for money while my Street
Sams and Mages had left overs.
> >>>
>
> Why? If the samurai and mage could afford to
upgrade, but the decker could not, why could the
deckers opposition afford to upgrade? If being a top
notch super decker is so costly, and being a top notch
samurai is relatively cheap, what does that mean? It
means the samurai faces more top notch samurai and the
decker faces more folks who can't afford good
programs. That makes the samurais job harder, and the
deckers job easier.
> -Mongoose

Which is all very nice and logical, Mongoose, but
unless you're the good ae, you're not playing the game
for a hefty dose of realism - you're playing to have
fun.

How much fun is it when your teammates are improving,
but you're being left behind in the SOTA dust because
your toys are too expensive to upgrade? Hmmm?

Btw, VR2 DID have one suggestion (kinda - which can
easily be customised as necessary) for solving this
problem. In downtime, let the decker go on a few,
small paydata runs. If you want, you can even just
roll computer skill tests. The decker skims off some
paydata, sells it and keeps ALL the money, to be spent
on improving his toys. Depending on how fast you want
him to advance, you can adjust how much money he makes
from these runs - AND you can use them as springboards
for future adventures.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:58:27 +0200
According to Phil Smith, on Tue, 24 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> 1) When designing a frame, is the memory size of the programmes it packs
> included in its memory size? eg. my rating 8 smart frame takes up 384MP
> (what with having a multiplier of 6). It includes an Armor 3 programme,
> Medic 3 and Attack-S 5 which take up 27MP, 36MP and 100MP respectively. Is
> the size of the programme 384MP or 547MP?

It says in the Programming chapter of The Matrix that "The actual size of a
frame or agent is the actual size of the frame core plus the actual size of
all the programs and options loaded on it." (Sorry, no page reference as I
still don't have an actual book :) That should answer that question -- your
frame would be 384 Mp, plus 163 Mp for the utilities, making a total of 547
Mp.

> 2) The price of programmes is listed in SR3 as being Size x (cost based on
> rating), does this refer to memory size? Because if it does in rating 7-9
> programmes you are paying 500¥ per MP!

It's the program's actual size (including options) in Mp, so yes, that gets
expensive. A rating 7 utility with a size multiplier of 4 and no options
would cost 7^2 x 4 x 500 = 98,000 nuyen, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: dejaffa@*********.net dejaffa@*********.net
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 04:51:38 -0700
I hate to bring up the obvious, but equipment can also be rewards
for runs, regardless of its "Street Price."

--Dejaffa

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Message no. 16
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:02:35 +0200
> > 1) When designing a frame, is the memory size of the programmes it
> > packs
> > included in its memory size? eg. my rating 8 smart frame takes up
> > 384MP
> > (what with having a multiplier of 6). It includes an Armor 3
> > programme,
> > Medic 3 and Attack-S 5 which take up 27MP, 36MP and 100MP
> > respectively. Is
> > the size of the programme 384MP or 547MP?
>
> No, the total size of the frame is the size of the frame core plus the
> loaded utilities. In the above example, the size 384 MP + 27 MP + 36
MP +
> 100 MP, or 547 MP.

He talks of designing. The Frame core is 384Mp, this is all you have to
program. You have to load the programms, you want, and, of course, the
programs also need memory, but not during designing and programing of
the frame.

Irian
Message no. 17
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:45:53 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> Btw, VR2 DID have one suggestion (kinda - which can
> easily be customised as necessary) for solving this
> problem. In downtime, let the decker go on a few,
> small paydata runs. If you want, you can even just
> roll computer skill tests. The decker skims off some
> paydata, sells it and keeps ALL the money, to be spent
> on improving his toys. Depending on how fast you want
> him to advance, you can adjust how much money he makes
> from these runs - AND you can use them as springboards
> for future adventures.

Sorry, but I think those little "side runs" are a rules cop-out... they
basically say "We made things too expensive, and thus must find a way so the
game is playable."
Message no. 18
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:10:03 -0500
:> Why? If the samurai and mage could afford to
:upgrade, but the decker could not, why could the
:deckers opposition afford to upgrade? If being a top
:notch super decker is so costly, and being a top notch
:samurai is relatively cheap, what does that mean? It
:means the samurai faces more top notch samurai and the
:decker faces more folks who can't afford good
:programs. That makes the samurais job harder, and the
:deckers job easier.
:> -Mongoose
:
:Which is all very nice and logical, Mongoose, but
:unless you're the good ae, you're not playing the game
:for a hefty dose of realism - you're playing to have
:fun.
:
:How much fun is it when your teammates are improving,
:but you're being left behind in the SOTA dust because
:your toys are too expensive to upgrade? Hmmm?

Well, "Mongoose" the PC never upgraded any of his implants in the length
of a 2 year campaign. Sure, he managed to scrounge some nice guns and a
car, but that was about it- more of a hobby than an exorcise in staying
SOTA. I think the cheapest upgrades I wanted came to maybe 500,000 nuyen,
which very nearly was my entire liquid savings after the two years. In
fact, it was sort of a challenge trying to just break even as his best toys
got broken...

He was still PLENTY of fun to play, even though other characters in the
game were in fact upgrading foci and cyber when he could not. He didn't
NEED to upgrade, which was my point with the decker.
There's another point in there- expensive is not the same as
unobtainable. Stealing software (either with a gun or with bits) is a noble
goal for any decker.

:Btw, VR2 DID have one suggestion (kinda - which can
:easily be customised as necessary) for solving this
:problem. In downtime, let the decker go on a few,
:small paydata runs. If you want, you can even just
:roll computer skill tests. The decker skims off some
:paydata, sells it and keeps ALL the money, to be spent
:on improving his toys. Depending on how fast you want
:him to advance, you can adjust how much money he makes
:from these runs - AND you can use them as springboards
:for future adventures.
:
:====:Doc'

The Matrix also includes a paydata table, along with detailing what
sorts of files might serve as paydata.

-Mongoose
Message no. 19
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:49:21 GMT
>From: Mike & Jill Johnson <shadowrn@******.net>
>>I am not sure how much Matrix and VR2.0 are different, I just picked up
>>Matrix, but in VR2.0 I think I lowered almost all price by 10% and my
>>players deckers where still begging for money while my Street Sams and
>>Mages
>>had left overs.
>>
>>DL
>
>I just changed from being our groups GM to being the groups Decker. The
>easiest work around for this is to have the decker write his or her own
>programs. Much much cheaper in yen but a lot more expensive in time.

There are also opportunities for deckers to make them some cash outside of a
run; selling the programmes they make, making decks and running a little
trade in paydata on the side.

But equally, street sams can do a little bounty hunting, mages can sell foci
and spell formula, or make some cash banishing hostile spirits and riggers
can do a fine trade in reapiring vehicles.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 20
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Some matrix queries
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:27:22 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

> But equally, street sams can do a little bounty hunting, mages can sell
foci
> and spell formula, or make some cash banishing hostile spirits and riggers
> can do a fine trade in reapiring vehicles.

Which raises the question: excluding the adrenaline freaks, why 'run at all?

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