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Message no. 1
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: some questions about bioware
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:35:50 GMT
i have a pc playing a phys adept who has had wired reflexes 2 put in
using the brand name cyberware rules costing 2.7 essence.Now that
that essence is gone and he bodies integrity has been violated he
proposes that he can insert bioware upto 2.7 points worth into the
space that is now present.
checking the books i am inclined tto think that he could with no
further essence loss.
any comments on this?

by the way checking the book i found two such references the one was
teachdire(run for the hills) the other is also in the prime runners
book.
Message no. 2
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:20:56 -0500
>i have a pc playing a phys adept who has had wired reflexes 2 put in
>using the brand name cyberware rules costing 2.7 essence.Now that
>that essence is gone and he bodies integrity has been violated he
>proposes that he can insert bioware upto 2.7 points worth into the
>space that is now present.
>checking the books i am inclined tto think that he could with no
>further essence loss.
>any comments on this?

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! (Was that enough times?)

Bioware in magically active characters costs Essence just as if it were
Cyberware. (See Shadowtech, very first page of the Bioware chapter)
Yes, this means Cyber AND Bio are cumulative Essence Loss, but (thnankfully)
only for magicians.

>by the way checking the book i found two such references the one was
>teachdire(run for the hills) the other is also in the prime runners
>book.

Which leads to this question: According to the vanilla rules, someone with
a Magic Rating of 1, not discounting Magic Loss due to Deadly Wounds, can
be a Grade-7 Initiate. Now, is it me, or is something intrinsically WRONG
with this?


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
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| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
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| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
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Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:26 +0100
John W. Carter said on 18 Oct 95...

> Bioware in magically active characters costs Essence just as if it were
> Cyberware. (See Shadowtech, very first page of the Bioware chapter)
> Yes, this means Cyber AND Bio are cumulative Essence Loss, but (thnankfully)
> only for magicians.
[snip]
> Which leads to this question: According to the vanilla rules, someone with
> a Magic Rating of 1, not discounting Magic Loss due to Deadly Wounds, can
> be a Grade-7 Initiate. Now, is it me, or is something intrinsically WRONG
> with this?

There is something wrong with your reasoning: if you use the Shadowtech
rule that bioware costs Essence, you _cannot_ have the character you just
described. His Essence would be -6 due to the bioware and cyberware, which
would make his Magic also -6, plus 7 for the Initiate grade to make a
Magic of 1. In theory it's possible but only with cybermancy...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Reality < Television
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 4
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:33:04 -0500
>> Bioware in magically active characters costs Essence just as if it were
>> Cyberware. (See Shadowtech, very first page of the Bioware chapter)
>> Yes, this means Cyber AND Bio are cumulative Essence Loss, but (thnankfully)
>> only for magicians.
>[snip]
>> Which leads to this question: According to the vanilla rules, someone with
>> a Magic Rating of 1, not discounting Magic Loss due to Deadly Wounds, can
>> be a Grade-7 Initiate. Now, is it me, or is something intrinsically WRONG
>> with this?
>
>There is something wrong with your reasoning: if you use the Shadowtech
>rule that bioware costs Essence, you _cannot_ have the character you just
>described. His Essence would be -6 due to the bioware and cyberware, which
>would make his Magic also -6, plus 7 for the Initiate grade to make a
>Magic of 1. In theory it's possible but only with cybermancy...

Oh, duh. I don't know what I meant... I think I meant having an essence of 0
But I saw Mr. Teachdaire in Prime Runners had a similar concoction: high-grade
initiate, low MR. Now that I think about it, I have no idea why I said that.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 5
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:10:00 PDT
> Bioware in magically active characters costs Essence just as if it were
> Cyberware. (See Shadowtech, very first page of the Bioware chapter)
> Yes, this means Cyber AND Bio are cumulative Essence Loss, but
(thnankfully)
> only for magicians.

No!, bioware has a body index. (zero essence) They are cumulative in magic
loss.

> Which leads to this question: According to the vanilla rules, someone with
> a Magic Rating of 1, not discounting Magic Loss due to Deadly Wounds, can
> be a Grade-7 Initiate. Now, is it me, or is something intrinsically WRONG
> with this?

No it is fine, the rule is as long as you do not have a zero magic rating at
any time, you will not loose your magic potential. you can have 0
essence and a body index of 1 which comes to a total of 7. If you are at
least initiate level 2 you are fine. orginal 6 magic +2for initiate -7 for
bio/cyber=1. Its in the grimmy thingy.

>There is something wrong with your reasoning: if you use the Shadowtech
>rule that bioware costs Essence, you _cannot_ have the character you just
>described. His Essence would be -6 due to the bioware and cyberware, which
>would make his Magic also -6, plus 7 for the Initiate grade to make a
>Magic of 1. In theory it's possible but only with cybermancy...

Sorry Gurth, there is no rule that state that bioware costs essence. That
is the idea of bioware. look under muscle augmentation. It is more essence
friendly because it costs no essence


Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 6
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:01:50 -0500
>> Bioware in magically active characters costs Essence just as if it were
>> Cyberware. (See Shadowtech, very first page of the Bioware chapter)
>> Yes, this means Cyber AND Bio are cumulative Essence Loss, but
>>(thnankfully)
>> only for magicians.
>
>No!, bioware has a body index. (zero essence) They are cumulative in magic
>loss.

Yes! I again implore you to look in the first page of the Shadowtech section
on Bioware. It says (paraphrased as I don't own the book) "For magically
active characters, bioware lowers Essence just the same as Cyberware."

Look it up. Go ahead. I'll wait......

There, now, you see?



/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 7
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:51:37 -0500
Sorry, Ricky... It's you who is wrong on this one. <ahem> And I quote,
Shadowtech, page 5, second column, last paragraph. "As Physical integrity is
even more crucial for the magically active (magicians and adepts), these
characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index when selecting
bioware. ... The essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost." end
quote.

I only discovered this ruling a few months back myself, and a character I had
been playing for 2 years changed DRASTICALLY because of it. Not an optional
rule, not a "house" rule, its a honest-to-god printed rule. Of course, that
doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it, but according to the book, that's the way
it is.

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 8
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:40:23 -0500
...Bioware costs essence... etc...

I know, but we've always had it drop your magic attribute (like losing
essence, true). The wiz-ones shouldn't get away scott free.

Maybe a rule, I don't know, but our GM has ruled that if your essence
ever equals zero, you lose all magic. Kaput. Gone. Forever. Doesn't
matter what your Magic Attribute is or how often you try to initiate. No
spells. No conjuring. No nothing.

Peace, love and artichokes.
Tim Serpas
II Dan Taekwon-do
BS Physics
Win95 Support Engineer
wretch@**.com
Message no. 9
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:55:00 -0700
>...Bioware costs essence... etc...
>
>I know, but we've always had it drop your magic attribute (like losing
>essence, true). The wiz-ones shouldn't get away scott free.
>
>Maybe a rule, I don't know, but our GM has ruled that if your essence
>ever equals zero, you lose all magic. Kaput. Gone. Forever. Doesn't
>matter what your Magic Attribute is or how often you try to initiate. No
>spells. No conjuring. No nothing.

Unless the person in question is using Cybermancy, if your essence equals
zero your dead. Kaput. Gone. Forever.
Message no. 10
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:53:33 GMT
that is exactly why i asked the question about can you put bioware
into the gap left by cyberware as teachdire was seemed to have done
it. in the case of magicians i was think about doing it with a
physical adept. using the rules of brand named cyberware and cultured
bioware it is possible to have wired 2 and muscle augmentation 2 with
3.1 essence left therefore a magic stat of 3.
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:20:36 GMT
HALOWEEN JACK writes

> that is exactly why i asked the question about can you put bioware
> into the gap left by cyberware as teachdire was seemed to have done
> it.

I am very suspicios of the accuratcy of that character. He was out
well before cybertechnology so should only be able to get the one bit
of ware listed in Yir-na-nog at Delta grade [and he has not got that
sort of cyber]. I suggest a very careful check of his magic and
essence ratings before using for suggestions FASA are not good at
designing error free archtypes/characters, try checking the main
rulebook ones against the character creation system. 'Some' are 'OK',
though most are close enough to be plenty fair even if not strictly
legal.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:11:55 GMT
i think that teachdire is possibly correct although i haven't checked
in the tir na nog book he could follow the path of the warrior which
allows him to install cyberware at half essence cost
Message no. 13
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:53:00 PDT
----------
>Sorry, Ricky... It's you who is wrong on this one. <ahem> And I quote,
>Shadowtech, page 5, second column, last paragraph. "As Physical integrity
is
>even more crucial for the magically active (magicians and adepts), these
>characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index when selecting
>bioware. ... The essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost." end
>quote.

>I only discovered this ruling a few months back myself, and a character I
had
>been playing for 2 years changed DRASTICALLY because of it. Not an
optional
>rule, not a "house" rule, its a honest-to-god printed rule. Of course, that
>doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it, but according to the book, that's the
way
>it is.
Good Arguement. It seems i am wrong once again. This means i have a way to
weaken our munchin mage. Thanx



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:30:23 -0400
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>>>>> "TCC" == The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET> writes:

TCC> Unless the person in question is using Cybermancy, if your essence
TCC> equals zero your dead. Kaput. Gone. Forever.

Wrong. If your essence is *less than* zero you're kaput. You can have a
0 essence and survive, though you're damn close to giving up the ghost;
Death is watching you quite closely.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 15
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:02:31 GMT
well the character involved has inserted the 2.7 body cost bioware
but as cultured bioware. on 1 of the web pages i can't remeber were
there is an article saying that for cultured bioware you only spend
10% of the essence cost eg2.7 which fits into the 3.3 to still leave
the magic stat at three
Message no. 16
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:23:16 +0100
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:23:12 +0100 (MET)

> Yes! I again implore you to look in the first page of the Shadowtech section
> on Bioware. It says (paraphrased as I don't own the book) "For magically
> active characters, bioware lowers Essence just the same as Cyberware."

That's not quite right. It says you lose as much essence (and hence
magic) as you lose body. A few lines below it says that this is merely
an indicator and no real body is ever lost (implying: no real essence
is ever lost, it is just an indicator for the magic loss, too).
I used to think that Bioware costs essence for mages, too, but some
day someone convinced me that it doesn't, because it didn't make much
sense from the beginning. If Bioware costs essence it would be MORE
intrusive than Cyberware - this would be strange.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 17
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:03:56 GMT
Date sent: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:23:16 +0100
Send reply to: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@***.SURFNET.NL>
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
To: Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN <SHADOWRN@***.SURFNET.NL>

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:23:12 +0100 (MET)

>> Yes! I again implore you to look in the first page of the
Shadowtech section
>> on Bioware. It says (paraphrased as I don't own the book) "For
magically
>> active characters, bioware lowers Essence just the same as
Cyberware."

>That's not quite right. It says you lose as much essence (and hence
>magic) as you lose body. A few lines below it says that this is
>merely an indicator and no real body is ever lost (implying: no real
>essence is ever lost, it is just an indicator for the magic loss,
>too).
>I used to think that Bioware costs essence for mages, too, but some
>day someone convinced me that it doesn't, because it didn't make much
>sense from the beginning. If Bioware costs essence it would be MORE
>intrusive than Cyberware - this would be strange.

Bye...
Georg
i beg to differ there i think you have miss read the rules it say
that no real body is ever lost yes. but that refers to actual body
the way you are reading it is, say you have a body of 4 and have
synaptic accelerator installed body cost 1.6 then your body wouldn't
end up with 2.4 body
hence the statement no real body is lost!!
Message no. 18
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:34:26 -0700
>I used to think that Bioware costs essence for mages, too, but some
day someone convinced me that it doesn't, because it didn't make much
sense from the beginning. If Bioware costs essence it would be MORE
intrusive than Cyberware - this would be strange.

Check out page 66 of Cybertechnology, lower left hand corner. It gives a
pretty good idea of why things affect mages a bit more than mundanes. Its not
really that you lose essence, but rather that you lose your connection or
that you deviate from your aura. Its quite an interesting concept, which is
also how I argued on the point of vampires and shapeshifters with regards to
cyber/bioware.



The
Dark Angel
Message no. 19
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:20:58 -0700
>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:23:12 +0100 (MET)
>
>> Yes! I again implore you to look in the first page of the
>> Shadowtech section on Bioware. It says (paraphrased as I don't
>> own the book) "For magically active characters, bioware lowers
>> Essence just the same as Cyberware."

Georg
>That's not quite right. It says you lose as much essence (and hence
>magic) as you lose body. A few lines below it says that this is
>merely an indicator and no real body is ever lost (implying: no
>real essence is ever lost, it is just an indicator for the magic
>loss, too). I used to think that Bioware costs essence for mages,
>too, but some day someone convinced me that it doesn't, because it
>didn't make much sense from the beginning. If Bioware costs essence
>it would be MORE intrusive than Cyberware - this would be strange.

According to the book For magically active individuals Bioware costs
essence (FOR THEIR MAGIC RATING) not for Healing and all that other
crap.

just my .02 -Y-

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 20
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: some questions about bioware
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:48:03 +0000
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> > Yes! I again implore you to look in the first page of the Shadowtech section
> > on Bioware. It says (paraphrased as I don't own the book) "For magically
> > active characters, bioware lowers Essence just the same as Cyberware."
>
> That's not quite right. It says you lose as much essence (and hence
> magic) as you lose body. A few lines below it says that this is merely
> an indicator and no real body is ever lost (implying: no real essence
> is ever lost, it is just an indicator for the magic loss, too).
> I used to think that Bioware costs essence for mages, too, but some
> day someone convinced me that it doesn't, because it didn't make much
> sense from the beginning. If Bioware costs essence it would be MORE
> intrusive than Cyberware - this would be strange.
>
I think the way it is written FASA *are* saying that bioware costs
essence for mages -so as to preserve game balance. However I myself am
with you in that I only reduce essence by Body Index for purposes of
determining Magic Attribute. So a mage who finally loses magic through
cyberware can still implant bioware without any essence cost. But the
motive is still there for magic users not to get bioware.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

Further Reading

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