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Message no. 1
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:03:51 -0500
Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.

I'm hesitant about upping the threat ratings a lot, as some of the
characters are a bit fragile as it is and burn through Karma pools like
water to stay alive in a firefight (which is fairly appropriate for the mage
with a low body, etc.) OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
through security guards like nothing. The options I see: employ more
trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or increase
threat ratings. Anyone have any other ideas or house rules that cover
situations like this?

Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
is phenomenal at times.

Also, I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm not 100% sure of the
numbers I included above. Feel free to correct them if you wish, but I
really don't think the actual numbers are that important.


Jerry Hill
--------------------------------------------
'Rome wasn't built in a day
but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
- Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 2
From: Sean Conway <bktoys@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:36:03 -0500
Some ways to hinder the character:

Recoil: Burst + 3 for the first shot and + 6 for the second (not
counting the fact that a shotgun is not designed for Recoil Baffiling or
another + 2 for second target) Shock pad and Gyro Stabilizer would be the
only posible mods

Range: Shotguns have terible range.

If he is using SHOT the power is dec by spread. As determined by choke.
and with shot the Smart Link only gives a + 1 enstead of + 2. Hitting your
friends. (You may do a 12 D (mossberg) but if your friend is next to him so
does your friend.) Shot sometimes sucks.

Concealablity: People notice shotguns

Pg 194 of BBB Change the threat rating of guns. (up the Balistic armor by
1.5 or 2)

Bad Karma

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6528

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 3:07 AM
Subject: Some thoughts and problems


>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive
something
>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.
>
>I'm hesitant about upping the threat ratings a lot, as some of the
>characters are a bit fragile as it is and burn through Karma pools like
>water to stay alive in a firefight (which is fairly appropriate for the
mage
>with a low body, etc.) OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
>through security guards like nothing. The options I see: employ more
>trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or increase
>threat ratings. Anyone have any other ideas or house rules that cover
>situations like this?
>
>Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
>simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
>is phenomenal at times.
>
>Also, I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm not 100% sure of the
>numbers I included above. Feel free to correct them if you wish, but I
>really don't think the actual numbers are that important.
>
>
>Jerry Hill
>--------------------------------------------
>'Rome wasn't built in a day
> but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
> - Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 3
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:49:15 +0100
>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.

Perhaps the problem lies in your will that the npc could survive.
Let's look at this :
* If the character gets 5 to 7 successes, that's because he's good at
firearms (at least 5 I suppose).
* He uses a very deadly weapon : Shotgun with bursts !
* npc is a normal human (no big cyberware or magic it seems)

IMO, the logical conclusion is the npc should die.. :)

Now, if you want your game to be a bit more difficult, try to make weapons
harder to find (increase availability, limit creation equipment to pistols
or SMG), to buy (increase prices and/or street indexes) and to use
(lonestar becomes more watchful.. After all, you can't walk in the streets
with your shotgun under the arm :)

If your only problem is shotguns, just reduce damages. If you use a damage
code of 7M for exemple, this would *only* become 10S with a burst.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 4
From: Lord Nazal <LordNazal@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:52:37 EST
>> snip >>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to
be a
bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.

I'm hesitant about upping the threat ratings a lot, as some of the
characters are a bit fragile as it is and burn through Karma pools like
water to stay alive in a firefight (which is fairly appropriate for the mage
with a low body, etc.) OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
through security guards like nothing. The options I see: employ more
trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or increase
threat ratings. Anyone have any other ideas or house rules that cover
situations like this?

Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
is phenomenal at times.

Also, I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm not 100% sure of the
numbers I included above. Feel free to correct them if you wish, but I
really don't think the actual numbers are that important.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The key in this is

A.) have your npc hit the players at range
fiber optic mage systems /drones/remote emplacements


B.) design your Coprs Buildings with some fore thought
killing jar areas/ heavy defended security posts / no remote access
computers /

C.) have your players Roll for there gear.
the availabilty on any brust fire shot guns are 8 or more

D.) have your players be responsable for ther actions
ex.. your player blows the npc away with the shotgun . If the group is
sloppy there will be evedence for Lone Star to colect. If they chatch the pc
the fun can start (lets see {murder 1,Breaking & Entering, ilegal use of
wepon,} to name a few ) and whether they give the pc a trial or not dependes
on i he has a Sin or not


thanks for your time
Michael "OG" Ragland

.....And the dodo said "Every thing you think you know is wrong "......
Message no. 5
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:24:46 -0500
Jerry Hill didst sayeth:

>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive
something
>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.


A competent shooter with an automatic shotgun should kill his target pretty
consistantly.

>I'm hesitant about upping the threat ratings a lot, as some of the
>characters are a bit fragile as it is and burn through Karma pools like
>water to stay alive in a firefight (which is fairly appropriate for the
mage
>with a low body, etc.) OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
>through security guards like nothing. The options I see: employ more
>trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or increase
>threat ratings. Anyone have any other ideas or house rules that cover
>situations like this?
>
>Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
>simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
>is phenomenal at times.


Don't make them tougher. Make them smarter. Have them attack the PC's from
ambush, take cover, use concussion and smoke grenades, and other things of
that sort. If you want to get really mean, give every security guard the
"Home Ground Edge", which gives them a minus one on all Skill Tests.

Then there's the "fairness" issue. If the characters are only surviving
through their karma pools, then the security forces should have a Threat
Pool. When that first character does something dumb, runs out of karma and
dies, maybe they'll seem threatening again.

Sorry about the bad pun...or maybe not :)

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe Swinging Sociopath for Fun
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:31:34 +0000
Jerry Hill wrote:
> Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
> bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
> shotgun.

A nasty weapon, but that is almost immaterial. You get almost as much
punch (and a lot more concealability and less noise) from a sawn off
Defiance, for instance. An enfield isn't sickly powerful. (Note that
it uses heavy weapon recoil, btw). A Franchi Spas or similar is sick,
though. Especially if you do not use layered armor rules. (I don't.).

Who does, and who doesn't, use layered armor on this list, btw? And
what's your experience with it?

> Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
> simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
> is phenomenal at times.

What you need is to change the runner's tactics. If they get
5-7 successes, they *are* fighting in ideal conditions... for
instance, without cover. Fighting without cover is suicide.
(Which might be why they're burning through their Karma pools, I
don't know.). Hint that it might be an idea. And make sure the npc's
do as well. Then, with massive modifiers to TN's, you won't run into
5-7 successes, but perhaps 1-2, even *gasp* a few misses. Also, ideal
lighting conditions should be less common.
(If they meet a single enemy, they would most likely try to get a
shot off with max combat pool and no cover... their choice. And that
enemy's in deep shit - and should be. They'll also dread those fights
where there's no cover in sight.. massive casualties on both sides.).

Threat rating: I consider threat rating a 'simplification' of combat
pool. (Also a simple way to 'boost' the character, of course) and so
Threat rating should be around 1/2 the npc's combat pool, and
increased somewhat for very nasty ones. Allow agressive or defensive
posturing where they get double threat for attack *or* defence, to
simulate combat pool usage. (Not in normal combat, though - sniping,
or trying to run away most likely, situations where they don't
defend or attack at all.).



--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:37:25 -0700
Jerry Hill wrote:
/
/ Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
/ bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
/ shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
/ (I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
/ easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
/ without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
/ like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
/ using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
/ I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.

I don't know about you, but if I shot someone with a shotgun I'd
expect them to die.

One of the PCs in my game carries a Rugger Warhawk and she nows how
to use it. She expects her targets to drop when she shoots them.

/ I'm hesitant about upping the threat ratings a lot, as some of the
/ characters are a bit fragile as it is and burn through Karma pools like
/ water to stay alive in a firefight (which is fairly appropriate for the mage
/ with a low body, etc.)

Been there, done that. Increasing threat ratings doesn't work. It
becomes a war of escallation that ends with dead PCs and pissed off
players.

/ OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
/ through security guards like nothing.

Why? :) The PCs are motivated shadowrunners. Anytime you have a
motivated, skilled person with a gun you're going to end up with dead
people. Course, when someone starts killing people very motivated
law enforcement reacts.

/ The options I see: employ more
/ trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or increase
/ threat ratings.

You're approaching this from the wrong angle, IMHO. Don't try to
stop the PCs from killing. Have you're world react appropriatly.
When people start dying law enforcement gets serious. When there's a
string of murders with an MO (death by shotgun) they start geting
very serious. And if the characters are running against Megacorps
then their security forces are going to get involved. And what about
the victim's friends and family? One of them might have the
resources to go after the runners.

If the PCs go around killing people all the time, there will be
consequences to face.

Now, there are a couple of ways to deal with the PCs directly.

The Swarm: the PCs are outnumbered to the point that it doesn't
matter how good they are (3:1 or greater). There's a scene in the
re-release of Star Wars when Han and Chewbaka run around a corner to
find themselves in the Stormtrooper barracks. They make the right
decision and run.

Intelligent NPCs: The chief of security realizes what's going on
when one of his guard posts doesn't check in (cuz their dead) and
locks down the facility. He then starts guiding his people in a
careful, methodical hunt of the PCs. His ability to outthink them is
unnatural (use GM knowledge to simulate this).

Or: a team of shadowrunners has been hired to take out the PCs (cuz
their killing people). The NPCs research the PCs and set up an
ambush. The NPCs have cover, are hiding, and are at range. They've
also picked a location with very few escape routes that they've
secured.

And so on....

Low Combat Adventures: Write an adventure that has very little
combat. I recently ran a murder mystery where the PCs had to hunt
down clues, ask a lot of questions, and figure out motives. If the
PCs react with gunfire and kill their information sources they blow
the adventure.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:46:16 PST
>/ OTOH, I hate to see one or two characters plow
>/ through security guards like nothing.
>
>Why? :) The PCs are motivated shadowrunners. Anytime you have a
>motivated, skilled person with a gun you're going to end up with dead
>people. Course, when someone starts killing people very motivated
>law enforcement reacts.

I agree totally. Murder must have it's consequences, especially when
it comes to "Cop killing"(which is basically what killing a SecGuard is
in the Shadowrun world). You see today on these cop shows and the news.
When someone kills a cop(or a bunch of cops) they become public enemy
number one. YOu shouldn't punish them right away, however. Let them
know their options. Point out the beauties of narcojet or gel rounds,
and if they still persist in killing, well, not to sound like a GM with
a vengence streak, but I think it's safe to say Lone Star(or whatever
Security Corp) won't pull any stops when it comes to magic or tech to
catch these "cold-blooded killers".
To me, a truelly effective shadowrun is one that is pulled off with
no or minimal body count. The perfect Shadowrun, of course, is the kind
where no one even knew you were there(and still won't for some time to
come).



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:55:05 -0800
I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
> bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a
combat
> shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes
out to
> (I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
> easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
> without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive
something
> like this?

Cover, cover, cover. NPC have a tendency to stand in front of the
biggest guns the PC's have. NPC's should have a life, they should run
away, dive for cover, or what ever that get's them out of harms way.
Another way is armor, security armor is usualy worn by security
forces, and the heavy edition can stop some damage.
So when just one NPC has survived the shooting from the PC's have
him/her call for back up(and if the PC's are really hard, make the
back up really hard)
Also remember that a shotgun scatters, and sometimes may all the
rounds in a burst doesn't hit the target, I don't know, but maybe your
PC's will hit something dangerous...
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Message no. 10
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:22:24 -0800
> To me, a truelly effective shadowrun is one that is pulled off with
> no or minimal body count. The perfect Shadowrun, of course, is the
kind
> where no one even knew you were there(and still won't for some time to
> come).


Ohhh...You're so right, real pro's doesn't need a shotgun in the first
place, noisy, clues for pelple to follow, secondary effects.
Gelrounds, squirts, narcoject are sweet words in my mind
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Message no. 11
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:22:46 -0800
> Who does, and who doesn't, use layered armor on this list, btw? And
> what's your experience with it?

I don't use it. First it looks and probarbly feels really stupid...,
and why doesn't the cops in RL run around in three layers of armor?

> Threat rating should be around 1/2 the npc's combat pool, and
> increased somewhat for very nasty ones. Allow agressive or defensive
> posturing where they get double threat for attack *or* defence, to
> simulate combat pool usage. (Not in normal combat, though - sniping,
> or trying to run away most likely, situations where they don't
> defend or attack at all.).

Ohhh, never though of threath ratings this way...thanx

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Message no. 12
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:16:50 -0500
Jerry Hill asked:
>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
>like this?

They don't - unless they're wearing hardened armour (or hiding behind
cover or something). So the NPCs change their tactics. Half a dozen
sites have been hit in the past couple of months with the same MO?
Start using fewer guards (more heavily armoured), more mages, more
drones. Try not to expose guards to danger - their primary task is
identification; let the drones and mages pick away at the intruders.
Set up containment zones - if the intruders come in through the front
door, lock down the reception area and start bringing in support.

Basically, analyze your opponents weaknesses and exploit them.

>Note that it really doesn't matter how much armor the NPCs wear.. it's
>simply the number of successes needed to stage a wound down to even serious
>is phenomenal at times.

Unless the armour is hardened - remember that 12 points of hardened
armour will bounce a 12S attack, even if it gets bursted to 15D. The
problem is now supplying the guards with that much armour (cover is
the cheapest way to do it - build a couple of cheap cement bunkers
with an armoured door and gun slits: it'll also boost TNs for the
players).

Also take advantage of more stuff like Lethe gas, thermal smoke, etc.
Sure, it raises the NPCs target numbers too, but it still makes it
easier to soak the damage.

Have fun!

James Ojaste
Message no. 13
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:29:26 -0500
On Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 03:03:51AM -0500, Jerry Hill wrote:
> Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
> bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
> shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
> (I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
> easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
> without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
> like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been

Simple. Put them in situations, where they can't use the gun.
If security guards are confronted with someone with an that
big of a gun, they're calling LS, KE etc. They respond with SWAT
Magic, etc.
Teach the runners, that guns aren't the answer. Shadowrunners
survive by living in and around the shadows. Big guns, and attack
way too much heat.
If this doesn't work. Have the NPC's be smart. Use cover, smoke
grenades etc to up the Target #.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 14
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:53:22 -0500
At 09:49 AM 3/24/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
>>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.
>
>Perhaps the problem lies in your will that the npc could survive.
>Let's look at this :
>* If the character gets 5 to 7 successes, that's because he's good at
>firearms (at least 5 I suppose).
>* He uses a very deadly weapon : Shotgun with bursts !
>* npc is a normal human (no big cyberware or magic it seems)
>
>IMO, the logical conclusion is the npc should die.. :)

The NPC should die everytime because he is being targeted in virtually
perfect firing conditions, and has no cover. If you want your NPC's to
survive, have them behave intelligently -- use cover, use smoke grenades,
etc. If it is a stand-up gunfight, then the higher initiative characters
will kill their opponents (and that usually means sec guards killed by
PC's). Give the guards 75% cover (ducking around a wall or desk), and the
TN goes up by 6. None of these other major fixes are then necessary.

--DT
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:36:24 EST
In a message dated 98-03-24 09:47:05 EST, nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> >Why? :) The PCs are motivated shadowrunners. Anytime you have a
> >motivated, skilled person with a gun you're going to end up with dead
> >people. Course, when someone starts killing people very motivated
> >law enforcement reacts.
>
> I agree totally. Murder must have it's consequences, especially when
> it comes to "Cop killing"(which is basically what killing a SecGuard is
> in the Shadowrun world). You see today on these cop shows and the news.
> When someone kills a cop(or a bunch of cops) they become public enemy
> number one. YOu shouldn't punish them right away, however. Let them
>
<snipped the rest>

I do agree here, "Cop Killers" is a major thing, and in SR, where 'shadowy
operations' happen on both the legal and illegal side of things to a greater
apparent extent. We had a "Cop Killer" situation erupt here not to long ago,
and it was accidental. Breaking/Extracting a target from a Prison in GA, and
everything was going relatively well (ignoring the Mob Mood "Lust" spell that
got out of control).

Then, on the way out using the river route (sigh), the group was in two forms
of transportation. A borrowed helicopter and a speedboat. The group in the
helicopter was being pursued by another helicopter. Some "warning" shots were
fired by the PCs, only it went wrong.

The police helicopter came to a quick crash, and the teams' healer couldn't
even help them out any. It was a sad thing.

Next thing we knew, we had a light LAV, and some 200 national guardmen in
total activation.

Was NOT what I had in mind.

-K
Message no. 16
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:25:11 -0500
William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR> said
>
> >Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
> >bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
> >shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
> >(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
> >easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
> >without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive something
> >like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
> >using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
> >I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.
>
> Perhaps the problem lies in your will that the npc could survive.
> Let's look at this :
> * If the character gets 5 to 7 successes, that's because he's good at
> firearms (at least 5 I suppose).
> * He uses a very deadly weapon : Shotgun with bursts !
> * npc is a normal human (no big cyberware or magic it seems)
>
> IMO, the logical conclusion is the npc should die.. :)

I agree. It is very easy to kill lots of NPCs in ShadowRun. It is often
the fastest and easiest way out of a situation. There's a lot that the
NPCs can do to live longer, as other people have already pointed out, but
that may not be a solution. If the NPCs hide, your PCs may start using
grenades more often. If the NPCs send in drones, your PCs may just blow
them away using more firepower. You end up with an arms race.

IMHO, you and your players need to determine the tone of your game. Tell
them that they are acting more like Mercs than Shadowrunners, and that
their contracts will start to reflect that. If they want to be Mercs,
you now have a Merc campaign. If they want to be ShadowRunners, then
they need to change. Professional Shadowrunners don't kill people very
often. Why?

1) Cops go after killers, especially cop killers. They don't send in
beat cops, they send in SWAT teams with heavy armor and weapons. And they
don't just forget about murder.
2) Ballistics can be used to track most firearms. (That's why many of the
better runners use Squirts, no ballistics.) The cops will know that there
is a single mass-murderer running the shadows if the same bullets keep
turning up.
3) Bounty. A quiet run won't make the news or hit the streets, that's bad
for business. A bloody run will, and there WILL be a reward posted. Mr.
Johnson will sell you out for the right price, to help defray the cost of
the run. Your contacts will sell you out if they need the money enough.
Bounty hunters will start tracking you.
4) Value of the Run. If Corp A hires the runners to get some data from
Corp B, and the runners geek most of Corp B's security, the data is going
to be HOT. Corp A can't just use the data, because Corp B is REALLY
going to be looking for it. High profile is bad business.
5) Jail time. Your runners can get caught! A sec mage might assense
them and run away, then track them later using watchers with heavy
magical and physical support. Whatever the reason, the jail time for
a murderer will put that PC out of the game. If your runners stick to
Breaking and Entering, Theft, and minor Assault (Squirts, stun weapons,
Gel rounds), they might actually get out of jail.
6) Contacts and Reputation. Someone with a reputation for killing people
often with a combat shotgun is not going to have friends for long. Word
will get out (that's what reputation is after all). And the Mr. Johnsons
of the world usually find out everything they can about runners before
hiring them.
7) Target. Someone with a combat shotgun is going to be the PRIME TARGET
for any sec forces that know about it. As soon as the PC uses it, he will
start drawing fire from every SecGuard around. That does nasty things to
his Combat Pool.

Yes, ShadowRun can be very lethal. If you want to play it like D&D where
you kill all the bad guys and take their treasure, you can! But if you
try to play with more realism, you will quickly discover that killers
don't run the shadows for long. Point out to your players that there is
a bounty on their heads that keeps getting bigger. Have their contacts
avoid them. Have Mr. Johnson put in a bonus for a quiet run, or perhaps
a large penalty if he has to pay "death benefits". Have Lone Star catch
one of your PCs with a big gun, and watch the charges pile up.

What can they do to change? Start using Squirts and Narcojets. Use Stun
Batons and Gel Rounds. They can be surprisingly effective! The Magicians
can learn StunBall, one of the best spells in the game. Use Invisibility
and Stealth to avoid combat completely and you won't have to worry about
getting wounded. That will save on PC recovery time, Cyberware damage,
and Magic Loss through deadly wounds. Your PCs won't need to carry around
big guns and heavy armor unless needed.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:48:15 +1000
Jerry Hill writes:
>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive
something
>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.


A lot of people have said "Hey, it's a shotgun. The guy is toast!".

Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED SUCCESS
TESTS!

It goes like this:
Shotgun shoots: Three round burst (10D), 7 success.

Unless you are using house rules that let the extra successes do more
damage, the extra 6 success after the first one are useless.

Target has to resist a 10D. Two success means he takes a serious, 4 means a
moderate, etc. Give him, say, an armour jacket, that makes it a 5D. With a
helmet, it's 4D.

An average security guard would have a body of 4 or 5. Call it 5. As a
reasonably competent and trained individual, they'll have a threat rating of
3. That gives 8 dice.

Against a 4D target, that security guard can expect four success, and will
take a moderate. He's hurting, but he's not dead. Mind you, he's got another
shot coming yet. That can also expect to be a moderate, so he'll have a
serious wound (all up), and should be thinking seriously about finding a new
career.

This is a good example of why my security guards have armour jackets as a
minimum: if they are serious about security, they'll have at least a partial
suit or better.

Your problem is not that the gun is too deadly, it's that you are treating
Ranged Combat as a Resisted Success Test. It's not. There are two _seperate_
tests:
a) The Firearms test to see if he hits. One success is required to hit.
Extra successes will stage the base damage up (but not past Deadly), but
will not affect the power rating. Note: Most GMs have house rules to allow
staging past Deadly, either by putting in extra damage levels or by
increasing the power of the attack (I favour the latter). Note that it takes
_3_ successes to stage the damage up one level, _5_ to stage it up two
levels, etc.

b) There is a seperate damage resistance test, IF the gunman got at least
one success.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 18
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:05:55 -0500
At 10:48 AM 3/25/98 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>Jerry Hill writes:
>>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out to
>>(I think) 10D (before adding successes). Now, this same PC can fairly
>>easily get 5 to 7 successes on this shot in fair lighting conditions,
>>without wounds, etc. Now, the problem is, how does an NPC survive
>something
>>like this? Assuming a human, he has a max Bod of 6 or so. I have been
>>using threat ratings in the 2 to 4 range. Now, the problem is that even if
>>I managed 8 successes against that 10D, it's still a Deadly wound.
>
>
>A lot of people have said "Hey, it's a shotgun. The guy is toast!".
>
>Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED SUCCESS
>TESTS!
>
>It goes like this:
>Shotgun shoots: Three round burst (10D), 7 success.
>
>Unless you are using house rules that let the extra successes do more
>damage, the extra 6 success after the first one are useless.

I'm not sure here, is this a house rule you are suggesting, or are you
saying this is cannon? If the latter, then you are wrong. On Pg. 87 of
the BBB, it says to make the attack test, then the defense test, and then
"Compare the successes. Depending on which character rolls the higher
number of net successes, the weapon damage is reduced or increased (staged)
appropriately."

You don't stage the damage up, then stage it back down, you stage with net
successes, in this example, it means the sec guard needs a minimum of 9
successes to avoid taking a D. Combat shotguns kill.

If you are suggesting this as a house rule, I guess that could be a fix,
but I don't like it. Suddenly people with huge skill in firearms can't
kill anymore, and the whole point is that they should be able to in optimal
conditions, but not necessarily shooting at guards with cover, from cover.

--DT
Message no. 19
From: Tony Campbell <tbacampbell@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:22:18 PST
<<snip stuff about the killer shotgun>>
>Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED >SUCCESS
TESTS!

Whew! I thought I had been running my game wrong all this time. (My BBB
is on loan to a prospective player)

>Extra successes will stage the base damage up (but not past Deadly),
>but will not affect the power rating. Note: Most GMs have house >rules
to allow staging past Deadly, either by putting in extra >damage levels
or by increasing the power of the attack (I favour the >latter).

My personal rule is that every two successes above Deadly reduces the
targets armor by one point, permanently. I figure that hard of a hit is
gonna blow chunks outta their armor. Plus, it keeps a few nuyen tied up
in buying replacement armor.
1st Run: Things were going great, and then the grenade went off.
2nd Run: Things were going great, and then the shaman exploded.

Tony: Dicechucker, Cardflopper, Keyboard pounder, and gamer in general
<tbacampbell@*******.com>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 20
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:42:31 -0600
> My personal rule is that every two successes above Deadly reduces the
> targets armor by one point, permanently. I figure that hard of a hit is
> gonna blow chunks outta their armor. Plus, it keeps a few nuyen tied up
> in buying replacement armor.
> 1st Run: Things were going great, and then the grenade went off.
> 2nd Run: Things were going great, and then the shaman exploded.
>
> Tony: Dicechucker, Cardflopper, Keyboard pounder, and gamer in general

Actually this is exactly how I operate damage above deadly in my game too.
It also makes it a little more problematic for the thick headed runners
that think a 5/3 Armor jacket provides good protection against everything.
When it's down to 2/2 or something like that they think twice before
jumping into combat.

--
Wherever you go, there you are!
Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
Message no. 21
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:04:19 -0500
> a) The Firearms test to see if he hits. One success is required to hit.
> Extra successes will stage the base damage up (but not past Deadly), but
> will not affect the power rating. Note: Most GMs have house rules to allow
> staging past Deadly, either by putting in extra damage levels or by
> increasing the power of the attack (I favour the latter). Note that it takes
> _3_ successes to stage the damage up one level, _5_ to stage it up two
> levels, etc.

Actually, if you reread the SRII section on combat and damage staging (pg.
90-91), you'll find that if a character gets multiple successes, thereby raising
it past deadly, they still will stop enemies from staging the damage down, even
if they can't raise it up. In addition, it only takes 2 successes to stage the
damage one way or the other, the first one counts towards staging.

> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com



--
G.I. Morochnick
The sinning is the best part of repentance.
Arabian Proverb
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:37:50 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 10:48/25 Mar 98...

> A lot of people have said "Hey, it's a shotgun. The guy is toast!".
>
> Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED SUCCESS
> TESTS!

For good order, the stuff you're proposing next is a house rule and/or an
SR1 rule.

[snip]
> Your problem is not that the gun is too deadly, it's that you are treating
> Ranged Combat as a Resisted Success Test. It's not. There are two _seperate_
> tests:
> a) The Firearms test to see if he hits. One success is required to hit.
> Extra successes will stage the base damage up (but not past Deadly), but
> will not affect the power rating. Note: Most GMs have house rules to allow
> staging past Deadly, either by putting in extra damage levels or by
> increasing the power of the attack (I favour the latter). Note that it takes
> _3_ successes to stage the damage up one level, _5_ to stage it up two
> levels, etc.
>
> b) There is a seperate damage resistance test, IF the gunman got at least
> one success.

If you are playing first edition SR, this is correct. First the attacker
stages up the damage, then the target stages it down.

However, in SRII the attacker and target both roll, the target's successes
are subtracted from the attacker's, and only _then_ is damage staged up or
down accordingly. That means that if the shotgunner has 7 successes and
the security guard has 4, the 10D damage would be staged up by 1 level
(which means that, per normal rules, it remains at Deadly).

This is clearly explained under Determine Outcome of Attack on page 91 or
SRII.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 23
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:21:32 +0100
At 15:31 24.03.98 +0000, you wrote:

>What you need is to change the runner's tactics. If they get
>5-7 successes, they *are* fighting in ideal conditions... for
>instance, without cover. Fighting without cover is suicide.
>(Which might be why they're burning through their Karma pools, I
>don't know.). Hint that it might be an idea. And make sure the npc's
>do as well. Then, with massive modifiers to TN's, you won't run into
>5-7 successes, but perhaps 1-2, even *gasp* a few misses. Also, ideal
>lighting conditions should be less common.
>(If they meet a single enemy, they would most likely try to get a
>shot off with max combat pool and no cover... their choice. And that
>enemy's in deep shit - and should be. They'll also dread those fights
>where there's no cover in sight.. massive casualties on both sides.).
>
Shootout in "Heat", anyone? Seriously, though, I've played with Fade
for
a while, and believe you me; you do *not* engage in a firefight without
sufficient cover. This is suicide, plain and simple. One: take cover,
two: return fire. I've failed to follow these simple rules on a couple of
occasions and have had the living crap kicked out of me every single time.
This makes for more realistic fights, so people: think about those vision
modifiers (80% of all known gunfights in the U.S. today take place in a
dark alleyway with no cover and no trained gun handlers...) Think about
cover. Think about LOS. Think about grenades (the chunky salsa effect can
really ruin your day). Finally; think about damage modifiers and how
numerous the opponents are. All things considered, these factors should
add up to creating a t.n. so high that 1-2 successes or even misses become
likely on combat tests. Take away all the little perks that make your
group feel "on top of things", and you have one seriously scared group on
your hands...
Please, don't flame me for this. I know a lot of you people use these
rules all the time, without even thinking about it, but I'm not addressing
you. This is for those people who have a problem with easy fights and
overkills.
>--

B.
Message no. 24
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:09:27 -0500
>Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED SUCCESS
>TESTS!


Erm, this was true in first edition SR, but as of SR 2, this is not true.

On another note, thank you all for the responces, I really didn't anticipate
quite so many. I'm got a slightly different perspective on things now.
Most of what people have said I understood before hand, but I didn't really
have things in perspective until reading all of the replies. Thank you all.


Jerry Hill
--------------------------------------------
'Rome wasn't built in a day
but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
- Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 25
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:34:29 -0500
> Please, don't flame me for this. I know a lot of you people use
these
>rules all the time, without even thinking about it, but I'm not addressing
>you. This is for those people who have a problem with easy fights and
>overkills.

Since I'm the one who started the thread, i don't think anyone should be
offended. These statements apply quite nicely to my game, I needed the
advice. I think part of my problem simply lies in the fact that I am torn
between being a "nice guy" and trying to provide a challenge. You've all
given me a lot to think about and I'm sure it will make my SR game a more
fun place to be. Thank you all again.

Jerry Hill
--------------------------------------------
'Rome wasn't built in a day
but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
- Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 26
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:27:47 -0500
On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:03:51 -0500 Jerry Hill
<agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU> writes:
>Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be
a
>bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a
combat
>shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out
to
[..]
>through security guards like nothing. The options I see: employ more
>trolls, add body enhancing cyber/bio to most of the opponents, or
increase
>threat ratings. Anyone have any other ideas or house rules that cover
>situations like this?
[..]

I would suggest makng liberal use of the consequences of ones actions.
Surely your security guards aren't all single, friendless nobodies,
right? And what about security cameras? If there's no decker in the
group, I'd suggest that the next several such gunnings-down show up on
the news. If there is a decker, then they should show up if he/she
doesn't kill the cameras first. If you've got people running around in
your campaign blowing security guards into the next world with combat
shotguns and ripping off the places they were guarding on a regular
basis, perhaps places should start stepping up their security? Or maybe
the characters need to be sent up against a more dangerous target. It
should be noted that some corp security forces have serious magical
backup (from Awakenings, I think) -- Aztechnology and Saeder-Krupp are
particularly infamous for this. Instead of putting sec-guards everywhere,
back them up with paracritters and /or spirits (remember that an
elemental can be bound to permanently patrol an area [see Grimoire 2,
under Astral Security]?) Give them a problem that the Mossberg or
Franchi-SPAS isn't going to solve. Have the family members of executed
guards form some sort of support group (The "Families of the Shotgun
Killer's Victims" or something) and bring that aspect of their actions
in. Have Lone Star step up security and patrols in areas they're likely
to hit. If they're attracting lots and lots of attention, they [the
characters] should have trouble finding jobs -- maybe they get
unwittingly stuck running decoy for another team and get left holding the
bag. Or maybe some enterprising trid reporter catches them leaving scene
("Film at eleven!"). Maybe that sec-guard they just iced was somebody
else's contact. And that somebody else isn't going to be happy.

There are innumerable ways to take care of this problem, they just
require a little creativity and patience on your part.

Final thought: have you considered talking with the players about this?
Maybe they'd be willing to lighten up on the lead to ease up the pressure
on the other PCs?


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186

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Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:57:11 +1000
Jerry Hill writes:
>>Here's the rule solution: RANGED COMBAT TESTS ARE NOT RESISTED SUCCESS
>>TESTS!
>
>
>Erm, this was true in first edition SR, but as of SR 2, this is not true.


Yeah, I found out... ouch. (This is the third time in 5 years I've been
bitten like this... each was combat related (well, one was magic, but with
combat spells). Guess that's the part of the rules that got ingrained into
me.)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 28
From: legion <legion@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:40:14 +1100
> Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
> bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
> shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out
to


<<<<<BIG SNIP>>>>>

try looking at Blackjacks Shadowrun Site

http://www.interware.it/users/blackjack/

it has some good ideas on dealing with PC's who are too deadly

Mik
Message no. 29
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:42:27 -0500
>Yeah, I found out... ouch. (This is the third time in 5 years I've been
>bitten like this... each was combat related (well, one was magic, but with
>combat spells). Guess that's the part of the rules that got ingrained into
>me.)


Heh, I still have to look up rules and make sure I'm not still using SR1
stuff.. and my players still catch me on it occasionally.

Jerry Hill
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:59:54 +1000
Jerry Hill writes:
>Heh, I still have to look up rules and make sure I'm not still using SR1
>stuff.. and my players still catch me on it occasionally.


Well, my old group were playing SR1 with me, so they don't catch me often.
:) (Mind you, I remember a hideous mistake I once made with anchoring... oh
well)

Anyway, here are some suggestions on how to handle ultra lethality in the
game:

Run a "dummy" combat session. Have your players use their existing
characters, and pit them against a force that outnumbers them, oh, about for
or five to one, with similar equipment, but no reaction mods.

Odds are your players will inflict _big_ losses, but will get less effective
when they have to preserve CP dice for defence. If they don't preserve CP
dice, blow them away... that's the point of this. :) (Naturally deaths don't
really count)

After this, start hiding initiative results for NPCs. The players aren't
meant to know when people will be acting (this gets particularly cool when
you have NPCs delay actions... I had a PC pop-up on 17 once, get shot at
(delayed action: shoot anyone moving out of cover), then get shot at again
at 13, when the delayer got their next turn. This sort of thing really
persuades PCs to be careful). Mix this by having NPCs who have increased
reflexes some of the time, so that your PCs can't expect to go first all of
the time. Alternatively, introduce the rule of six to initiative for
non-enhanced characters (or one die for everyone that has the rule of six).

Finally, a role-playing suggestion: get your characters to tone down their
weapons. As a rule in my game, Lone Star will respond in force to reports of
incidents involving fully automatic weaponry or major bang-bang such as a
combat shotgun. Even if the SWAT team gets there late, there's a good chance
a witness will have seen the getaway vehicle, and then you'll have
helicopters flying over the freeways looking for the vehicle.

Heck, you could always use random encounter tables. Every time my players
drive around (and I can be bothered about it), they've got a chance (1 in
216, or the odds of getting three one's on three dice) that they'll get
pulled over for either a random breath test, speeding or something similar.
Sure, it's a slim shot, but it's enough to discourage players from packing
heat that's too obvious.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 31
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts and problems
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:30:29 +0200
At 15:40 26.03.98 +1100, you wrote:
>> Okay, I have a small problem in my SR game... namely, my PCs tend to be a
>> bit too deadly. For instance, one character in my group carries a combat
>> shotgun. The result of a 3-round burst from a combat shotgun comes out

Give me a rooftop and a rifle any day. Bye bye mr ignorant shadowrunner.
B.

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Thwap!