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From:	red redmtl@**********.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:37:01 -0800 (PST)

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is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are Guy=ass Guy=formall
mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any thoughts on the issuse.

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From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 00 23:59:24 -0500

Message no. 2 On 11/9/00 10:37 pm, red said:

>is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
>Guy=ass Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any
>thoughts on the issuse.
>
>

Absolutely it is wrong. What is in the game STAYS in the game. What is
outside of the game STAYS outside of the game. You violate this rule and
VERY soon you hav eno game.

I also guarantee you that you loose any chance you may have with girl
which based on this post I would rate at very low anyway.

Steve

From:	Sinabian@*.com Sinabian@*.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:48:05 EST

Message no. 3 In a message dated 11/9/2000 8:37:36 PM Mountain Standard Time,
redmtl@**********.com writes:

> is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
Guy=ass
> Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any thoughts
on
> the issuse.

Just fraggin' dies! Yes...it's amazingly wrong. Not to mention the best way
to make enemies in your gaming group is to abuse your GM power in that way
(and yes, most players can see through that sort of thing). But ultimately
it's up to you. Fair warning though...I don't think it's the kind of thing
your "hopefully" future mate is going to approve of. Chicks don't like petty
guys.

From:	Old Man Bethyaga acuteparanoia@*******.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:05:42 CST

Message no. 4 >From: red <redmtl@**********.com>
>is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
>Guy=ass Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any
>thoughts on the issuse.

Well, duh, Red--of course it's wrong.

If I'm translating correctly, you GM for a guy who either does or used to
date a girl you have your eye on, and are wondering if it's okay to use your
GM power to kill the guy's character.

Um...

Leaving aside right or wrong... how would that help you get the girl? I
mean--is she stupid enough to be impressed that a GM has the power to kill
off a character? Hell, if that impresses her, then she'll just swoon when
she finds that I can stomp on ants while breathing at the same time.

Killing him over this = no one will play with you anymore.

Bethy
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From:	Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:42:19 -0800

Message no. 5 At 07:37 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Red wrote:

>is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
>Guy=ass Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any
>thoughts on the issuse.

Hey, man -- nothing ventured = nothing gained. I say smoke him and let the
chips fall where they may.

Good luck.

~ Snake Eyes

From:	Guru slaanesh@******.univ.szczecin.pl
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:46:55 +0100 (CET)

Message no. 6 > > is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
> Guy=ass
> > Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any thoughts
> on
> > the issuse.

Situation almost exact like this has happened in one of our games (I was a
beholder only). It ended like you can predict. GM was ostracized.

--
Have you been to Shadowrun Dead End? No? Then go there now! ;]
http://www.stuco.uni-oldenburg.de/~james

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:11:26 +0100

Message no. 7 According to red, on Fri, 10 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
> Guy=ass Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of
mine(hoped), any
> thoughts on the issuse.

As long as you don't kill his character for not liking the player... I've
always used the guideline that, if a character dies from natural causes[1]
then that's too bad -- make a new character. I don't go out of my way to
kill player characters (except once when the group as a whole was pissing
me off with their arguing). That said, I normally give the players
sufficient chance to try and save the dying character by use of first aid,
spells, and so on, but if they can't, there's no miraculous ressurrection
of a near-dead character.

[1] Gunshot wounds, combat spells, etc. inflicted during fights with the
bad guys or others the PCs are picking a fight with.

Anyway, if the player whose character you want to kill is being a jerk,
talk to him (assuming you haven't already). Explain that you think he's
disrupting the game, or whatever it is that he's doing wrong in your
opinion, and how you'd like him to change his behavior. If he keeps being
an asshole you can try something else, but you shouldn't punish the
character for the player's actions -- if you've got a problem with the
player, it's the player you should take it up with, to avoid confusion.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And now, the weather.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Snap_Dragon manning@****.net
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:36:59 -0800

Message no. 8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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-----Original Message-----
From: red <redmtl@**********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: November 9, 2000 7:37 PM
Subject: somewhat moral question Hoi
I say give him canser and leave him a while to try to make the best of it roleplay
wise, you know long good byes. Spending his last days somewhere he likes or trying to make
enoughmoney for a experamental cure and if he is a moron or an ass he will probably fuck
that up. leave him an obiovios avenue of escap which requires some good gaming. And maby
you won't be orsrisized, or try to fool him into a trap but that depends on what kind of
ass he is.

signed

Snap Dragon

"And when pandora's box was opened a plauge was let loose oppon the world, and
they would be called idiots, and they would for ever darken the world."

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<DIV>-----Original
Message----- From:
red <<A

href="mailto:redmtl@**********.com">redmtl@**********.com</A>> To:

<A
href="mailto:shadowrn@*********.com">shadowrn@*********.com</A>
<<A

href="mailto:shadowrn@*********.com">shadowrn@*********.com</A>> Date:

November 9, 2000 7:37 PM Subject: somewhat moral

question    Hoi</DIV>
    I say
give him canser and leave him a while to try to make the best of it roleplay
wise, you know long good byes. Spending his last days somewhere he likes or
trying to make enoughmoney for a experamental cure and if he is a moron or an ass
he will probably fuck that up.  leave him an obiovios avenue of escap
which requires some good gaming. And maby you won't be orsrisized, or try to
fool him into a trap but that depends on what kind of ass he
is.
signed 
   
Snap Dragon
"And when pandora's box was opened a plauge
was let
loose oppon the world, and they would be called idiots, and they would for
ever darken the world."
 </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From:	Sinabian@*.com Sinabian@*.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:08:31 EST

Message no. 9 I say give him canser and leave him a while to try to make the best
of it roleplay wise, you know long good byes. Spending his last days
somewhere he likes or trying to make enoughmoney for a experamental cure and
if he is a moron or an ass he will probably fuck that up. leave him an
obiovios avenue of escap which requires some good gaming. And maby you won't
be orsrisized, or try to fool him into a trap but that depends on what kind
of ass he is.

signed

Snap Dragon

I've noticed a trend here...assinine GMs tend to have LOUSY spelling and
grammar... Remind me never to game under you if we meet in person, your
methods and your slaughtering of the english language would drive me to tears.

From:	JLantrip@****.COM JLantrip@****.COM
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:13:12 -0700

Message no. 10 >I've noticed a trend here...assinine GMs tend to have LOUSY spelling and
>grammar... Remind me never to game under you if we meet in person, your
>methods and your slaughtering of the english language would drive me to
tears.

LOL...that does it! This year at GenCon, I'm bringing the "Mandatory
Shadowrun Spelling Test".

"Why, yes, I *did* sign up for a slot in this game. I'm afraid you'll have
to pass this test first. Please use a number two pencil only and mark the
correct answers. You have 30 minutes. Begin."

--J

From:	Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:24:27 -0600

Message no. 11 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Sinabian@***.com [mailto:Sinabian@***.com]
> Subject: Re: somewhat moral question
>
>
> I say give him canser and leave him a while to try to
> make the best
> of it roleplay wise, you know long good byes. Spending his last days
> somewhere he likes or trying to make enoughmoney for a
> experamental cure and
> if he is a moron or an ass he will probably fuck that up.
> leave him an
> obiovios avenue of escap which requires some good gaming. And
> maby you won't
> be orsrisized, or try to fool him into a trap but that
> depends on what kind
> of ass he is.
>
> signed
>
> Snap Dragon
>
>
>
> I've noticed a trend here...assinine GMs tend to have LOUSY
> spelling and
> grammar... Remind me never to game under you if we meet in
> person, your
> methods and your slaughtering of the english language would
> drive me to tears.
>
>
While I whole-heartedly agree with you I believe that was a flame
and does not belong here.
I'm not Gridsec or anything. Just a concerned citizen speaking up
for the grammatically challenged. (And you misspelled asinine.)

-Draamal

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From:	Guru slaanesh@******.univ.szczecin.pl
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:26:53 +0100 (CET)

Message no. 12 > "Why, yes, I *did* sign up for a slot in this game. I'm afraid you'll have
> to pass this test first. Please use a number two pencil only and mark the
> correct answers. You have 30 minutes. Begin."

ROFL

>
> --J
>
>
>
>
>

--
Have you been to Shadowrun Dead End? No? Then go there now! ;]
http://www.stuco.uni-oldenburg.de/~james

From:	Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:39:15 -0800

Message no. 13 From: Sinabian@***.com

> I've noticed a trend here...assinine GMs tend to have LOUSY spelling and
> grammar... Remind me never to game under you if we meet in person, your
> methods and your slaughtering of the english language would drive me to
tears.

as*i*nine (s-nn)
adj.
Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behaviour.
Of, relating to, or resembling an ass.

Are you sure you meant to say that? Because what you say above makes more
sense when you replace that word with something along the lines of
vindictive,
vengeful, or possibly assassinating. Plus it would be nicer.

It's the GMs with a perfect command of English you should worry about, just
like in the films the hyper-cultured villain is much more fun ;) (well, not
for the victims, but you get the idea)

Martin
- Who's kommand of spellltsekers iz pervekt -

From:	Sinabian@*.com Sinabian@*.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:43:42 EST

Message no. 14 as*i*nine (s-nn)
adj.
Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behaviour.
Of, relating to, or resembling an ass.

Are you sure you meant to say that? Because what you say above makes more
sense when you replace that word with something along the lines of
vindictive,
vengeful, or possibly assassinating. Plus it would be nicer.

It's the GMs with a perfect command of English you should worry about, just
like in the films the hyper-cultured villain is much more fun ;) (well, not
for the victims, but you get the idea)

Martin
- Who's kommand of spellltsekers iz pervekt -

Well, not assassinating, which has anybody else ever noticed that assassins
have a whole lot of "ass"?!? Funny quirk of the english language. And perhaps
the words you provided were more accurate, and certainly nicer, but I just
have little or no patience for GMs who resort to such methods based on whim
or personal vendettas. Gamers who are childish are bad enough to have to
associate with. When the GM has the mentality and moral code of a 4 year old
however, is when I pack up my dice and characters and walk away from the
table.

By the way, I totally agree on the cultured villain. Those are the best. My
favorite so far is still Alan Rickman from Die Hard. Excellent actor and the
villain you love to hate. I try to make the evil NPCs in my campaigns along
the same lines (though fall somewhat dramatically short, c'est la vie!).

From:	Jonathan Choy jjchoy@*********.net
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:57:41 -0500

Message no. 15 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 10 November 2000 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: somewhat moral question

> According to red, on Fri, 10 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...
>
> > is it wrong to get a chacter killed in the group i Gm. Teh facts are
> > Guy=ass Guy=formall mate of chick Chick==fucher mate of mine(hoped), any
> > thoughts on the issuse.
>
<<Oni no Snip eats some text>>
>
> [1] Gunshot wounds, combat spells, etc. inflicted during fights with the
> bad guys or others the PCs are picking a fight with.
>
> Anyway, if the player whose character you want to kill is being a jerk,
> talk to him (assuming you haven't already). Explain that you think he's
> disrupting the game, or whatever it is that he's doing wrong in your
> opinion, and how you'd like him to change his behavior. If he keeps being
> an asshole you can try something else, but you shouldn't punish the
> character for the player's actions -- if you've got a problem with the
> player, it's the player you should take it up with, to avoid confusion.
>

On the other hand, if he's being a jerk, you've talked to him, he's not
interested in leaving the group, but the rest of your group is interested in
leaving him - waste his character and don't let him make a new one. (Who,
me, have to off somebody's character to get them to not try and come back?
Yes. Did any of my players care? Yeah, they were glad not to have to deal
with him. Bad roleplayers make for stupid situations)

Of course, if's he's that much of a jerk, then I would have concerns about
trying to 'poach' his girlfriend from him based on the notion that he might
exhibit dramatic antisocial tendencies of a physical nature (read: you might
get the drek kicked out of yourself over sex - poor decision theater, now
selling popcorn, $3.50 a bag)

Tetsujin no Oni
Jon Choy
'Of course I feel dirty.... I'm from the Horde!'

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 00 21:46:15 -0500

Message no. 16 On 11/10/00 10:36 am, Snap_Dragon said:

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: red <redmtl@**********.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: November 9, 2000 7:37 PM
> Subject: somewhat moral question Hoi
> I say give him canser and leave him a while to try to make the
>best of it roleplay wise, you know long good byes. Spending his last days
>somewhere he likes or trying to make enoughmoney for a experamental cure
>and if he is a moron or an ass he will probably fuck that up. leave him
>an obiovios avenue of escap which requires some good gaming. And maby you
>won't be orsrisized, or try to fool him into a trap but that depends on
>what kind of ass he is.
>
> signed
>
> Snap Dragon

No you missed the whole point. You DO NOT mess with a character because
you have a problem with the player. If you have a problem with the
character open up with all guns blazing. If you have a problem with the
player you discuss it outside of the game. If you cannot resolve your
problems with the player and cannot deal fairly with him because of it
You must not GM him. Either anyther player who can remain impartial must
assume the GM role or you must part ways as a gaming group. Any other
course of action will destroy your game as no player will ever know if
something happens to their character happens for a reason or because you
have a problem with them.

Secondly I do not know the situation fully however because of your
attitude and your intentions to his former Girlfriend I suspect that the
problem is with you and not with him. Unlike others I will not complain
about your spelling, lord knows mine isn't perfect but I will question
yuur having the necessary maturity to GM just by virtue of the fact that
you had to ask this question, you come off sounding like a petulant 15
year old boy.

If you really want advise, turn the cancer into a general plot device for
the entire campaign ala Scully's cancer in X-Files and drop your vendetta
against this player otherwise your players will loose all respect for you
and they will shortly all leave your game. Also the girl in question is
not going to go out with you if you act like a possessive jerk in this
manner unless she is the one who has put you up to it in the first place
and then you can look forward to her turning her friends against YOU when
she's done with you. Either way you're not going to impress her.

Steve

From:	DemonPenta@*.com DemonPenta@*.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:37:38 EST

Message no. 17 In a message dated 11/10/00 8:33:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
einan@*********.net writes:

> If you really want advise, turn the cancer into a general plot device for
> the entire campaign ala Scully's cancer in X-Files and drop your vendetta
> against this player otherwise your players will loose all respect for you
> and they will shortly all leave your game. Also the girl in question is
> not going to go out with you if you act like a possessive jerk in this
> manner unless she is the one who has put you up to it in the first place
> and then you can look forward to her turning her friends against YOU when
> she's done with you. Either way you're not going to impress her.

Agreed, by a lot. You deserve to be screwed over if you do that....Hell, I'd
recommend it.

John

From:	Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject:	somewhat moral question
Date:	Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:58:41 -0600

Message no. 18 on 11/10/00 10:13 AM, JLantrip@******.COM at JLantrip@******.COM e-scribed:

> "Why, yes, I *did* sign up for a slot in this game. I'm afraid you'll have
> to pass this test first. Please use a number two pencil only and mark the
> correct answers. You have 30 minutes. Begin."

And make sure you mark the ballot right....

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level

From:	caelric@**.com caelric@**.com
Subject:	Somewhat moral question
Date:	Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:22:41 -0800

Message no. 19 At 12:10 PM 11/11/00 -0800, Red wrote:
> guy. (After a fight of legitament dammage)..............ANyway, i would
>thank you not to toss around the word petty on a forum containing
>Roleplayers, aren't we all that week of soul???????????
>Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

First, could you please turn off the HTML in your email? It makes it
difficult for some emailiers to recognize and reply to, as you can see by
my emailier (Eudora) not properly quoting your email.

Second, this is not a flame, or an attack, merely a request. Please put
some effort into checking spelling and grammar, it makes it that much
easier to understand what you are trying to say.

Finally, you need to give us some more information. In your original post,
you said 'guy=ass' By this did you mean he is a jerk and is disrupting
your gaming? If so, the best way to deal with it is to talk to him out of
game, and ask him to be a better/nicer person. If, on the other hand, he
is an ok guy, but his CHARACTER is a jerk, and is having in game conflicts
with said named female, then you need to let that play itself out with no
help from you for either side.

Also, if you do take sides, and kill the guys character merely because
someone (the woman in question) asked you to, it will cause problems in
your group, as most people can see through that kind of stuff. The most
likely eventual end to that scenario is your group shrinking down to two
people as everyone leaves. These two people would be you, and the woman.
While that offers other possibilites, it is not conducive to gaming.

Good luck

Dave

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