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Message no. 1
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:36:24 -0500
It is noted in SR2, p136 "tracking the sending", that a ritual team is
considered present in astral space. Does this mean they are dual
natured, and hence astrally percieving?
If yes, would that then mean that spell casting adepts who do NOT have
astral perception could then use meta magic techniques that requre
astral perception, if done in conjunction with ritual sorcery? IE, would
this be an OK way for them to cast quickened spells?

-Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:20:47 +1000
wafflemiester writes:

> It is noted in SR2, p136 "tracking the sending", that a ritual team is
> considered present in astral space. Does this mean they are dual natured,
> and hence astrally percieving?

It means that they are dual natured. I wouldn't say that they are
neccesarily astrally perceiving. OTOH, the original intention of the rules
may have been to imply that the casters of ritual sorcery had to perceive
during the sending stage, something that was entirely OK by the rules until
sorcery adepts came along with the Grimything. OTOH, I think that the rules
probably would have specified that the casters were required to perceive
during the sending stage, so it is possible to just conclude that the act of
casting ritual sorcery creates a bridge between the casters and astral space
during the sending stage. This is different from the casters astrally
perceiving.

> If yes, would that then mean that spell casting adepts who do NOT have
> astral perception could then use meta magic techniques that requre astral
> perception, if done in conjunction with ritual sorcery? IE, would this be
> an OK way for them to cast quickened spells?

I would say no, based upon the logic above.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:13:04 -0500
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:20:47 +1000 Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
writes:
>wafflemiester writes:
>> It is noted in SR2, p136 "tracking the sending", that a ritual team is
>> considered present in astral space. Does this mean they are dual
natured,
>> and hence astrally percieving?

>It means that they are dual natured. I wouldn't say that they are
>neccesarily astrally perceiving. OTOH, the original intention of the
rules
>may have been to imply that the casters of ritual sorcery had to
perceive
>during the sending stage, something that was entirely OK by the rules
until
>sorcery adepts came along with the Grimything. OTOH, I think that the
rules
>probably would have specified that the casters were required to perceive
>during the sending stage, so it is possible to just conclude that the
act of
>casting ritual sorcery creates a bridge between the casters and astral
space
>during the sending stage. This is different from the casters astrally
>perceiving.

Sorcery Adepts came with the BBB ... Elemental Adepts were in the Grimmy
(at least that's how Second Edition goes ... don't feel like checking the
First Edition ...) Aside from that, I agree with you ... sounds good :)
.... Hmmm... btw, rather than look it up and figure it out for myself,
I'll ask the list: can Astral Adepts (Awakenings) participate in ritual
sorcery as the spotter? or does the spotter still need to know the spell
being cast? IMO, Astral Adepts can be act as spotters ...

<SNIP>
>
>--
>Damion Milliken
<SNIP Sig>

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 4
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:53:22 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:13:04 -0500

> I'll ask the list: can Astral Adepts (Awakenings) participate in ritual
> sorcery as the spotter? or does the spotter still need to know the spell
> being cast? IMO, Astral Adepts can be act as spotters ...
>

<snip sig>

I agree that Astral Adepts can be used as spotters without knowing the actual
spell because they can still use the Sorcery skill on the Astral plane, just
not for casting spells.



--
--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:44:39 +1000
Alfredo B Alves writes:

> Sorcery Adepts came with the BBB ... Elemental Adepts were in the Grimmy
> (at least that's how Second Edition goes ... don't feel like checking the
> First Edition ...) Aside from that, I agree with you ... sounds good :)

Drek! I hate it when I remember things that are from 1st Ed. Anyway, the
principle is somewhat similar... :-)

> .... Hmmm... btw, rather than look it up and figure it out for myself,
> I'll ask the list: can Astral Adepts (Awakenings) participate in ritual
> sorcery as the spotter? or does the spotter still need to know the spell
> being cast? IMO, Astral Adepts can be act as spotters ...

I would say no, as according to the rules for ritual sorcery, p 135 SRII,
all members of the ritual team must know the spell being cast. The astral
spotter is a member of the team...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 6
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:20:46 -0500
> > Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
(Damion Milliken , Sun 15:20)
>
> wafflemiester writes:
>
> > It is noted in SR2, p136 "tracking the sending", that a ritual team is
> > considered present in astral space. Does this mean they are dual natured,
> > and hence astrally percieving?
>
> It means that they are dual natured. I wouldn't say that they are
> neccesarily astrally perceiving.

ALL dual beings can percieve as a free action, at leastby the BBB.

> <snip 1st ed rules stuff> it is possible to just conclude that the act of
> casting ritual sorcery creates a bridge between the casters and astral space
> during the sending stage. This is different from the casters astrally
> perceiving.

That is possible, yes- Cyberzombies give a similar example of an astral
presence with no perception.
Alsoworth notingis the section on P.148, which also says "astrally
active", with a similarly vaugue meaning.

<snipusing "ritual perception" for metamagic>
Damn, that seemed like a groovy idea. I can see some reasons for not
allowing the "free" perception, though- not the least, ritual sorcery
might be used JUST for that purpose (to assense objects, forexample), if
you allow they can do activities besides the ritual. If your against
that sort of thing- If you allow a-perception as a spell or intiate
ability, why even bother?

-Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:38:26 EDT
I didn't quote because as far as I can tell, this hasn't been brought up
but...

Would you allow a sorcery adept to lower his effective magic by 2 to get
Astral Perception (like a physical adept)? Not buy anything else like an PAD
but make their Magic for the purposes of sorcery (like max spell force and
such) a 4, and allow them to use astral perception? Is it just me, or does
this sound like a good , non-munchkinous, idea?

Nexx
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:42:17 -0600
Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
/
/ I didn't quote because as far as I can tell, this hasn't been brought up
/ but...
/
/ Would you allow a sorcery adept to lower his effective magic by 2 to get
/ Astral Perception (like a physical adept)? Not buy anything else like an PAD
/ but make their Magic for the purposes of sorcery (like max spell force and
/ such) a 4, and allow them to use astral perception? Is it just me, or does
/ this sound like a good , non-munchkinous, idea?

It depends on the GM, his game, and player. In my game I would let any
of my players do it. Of course, me and my players only have mild
munchkin tendancies :)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:36:57 +1000
David Buehrer writes:

> / Would you allow a sorcery adept to lower his effective magic by 2 to get
> / Astral Perception (like a physical adept)? Not buy anything else like an PAD
> / but make their Magic for the purposes of sorcery (like max spell force and
> / such) a 4, and allow them to use astral perception? Is it just me, or does
> / this sound like a good , non-munchkinous, idea?
>
> It depends on the GM, his game, and player. In my game I would let any
> of my players do it. Of course, me and my players only have mild
> munchkin tendancies :)

Hmm, that sounds like a pretty good idea. OTOH, would it then be possible
for the Sorcery Adept to use those metamagical techniques that require
astral perception that he would otherwise not be able to use? Myself I can
see that it would be a reasonable conclusion to draw. OTOH (yep, I've an
articulate arm :-)), the loss of 2 Magic points is nowhere near as bad for a
Sorcery Adept as it is for a PA, so is the direct conversion really
equitable?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:38:52 EDT
In a message dated 22/06/98 23:37:16 Central Daylight Time, milko@***.EDU.AU
writes:

> Hmm, that sounds like a pretty good idea. OTOH, would it then be possible
> for the Sorcery Adept to use those metamagical techniques that require
> astral perception that he would otherwise not be able to use? Myself I can
> see that it would be a reasonable conclusion to draw.

IMO, yes... at least so far as they don't require other skills.

> OTOH (yep, I've an
> articulate arm :-)), the loss of 2 Magic points is nowhere near as bad for
a
> Sorcery Adept as it is for a PA, so is the direct conversion really
> equitable?

I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical magicians
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:03:36 +1000
Nexx Many-Scars writes:

> > OTOH (yep, I've an articulate arm :-)), the loss of 2 Magic points is
> > nowhere near as bad for a Sorcery Adept as it is for a PA, so is the
> > direct conversion really equitable?
>
> I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical magicians

Except that Physical Magicians can be considered to be getting the Astral
Perception from the PA ability... Also, Physical Magicians are Priority A
magicians, so one would expect them to have easier access to Astral Space.
I just see it as a somewhat easy way for Sorcery Adepts to get Astral
Perception, that's all - 2 Magic Points is hardly a worry, really.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:24:31 -0500
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:38:52 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 22/06/98 23:37:16 Central Daylight Time,
>milko@***.EDU.AU
>writes:
<SNIP>
>>OTOH (yep, I've an
>>articulate arm :-)), the loss of 2 Magic points is nowhere near as bad
for a
>>Sorcery Adept as it is for a PA, so is the direct conversion really
>>equitable?

>I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical
magicians

Because physical magicians and physad still don't actually LOSE the Magic
point ... It is SPENT but still there.

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:01:58 EDT
In a message dated 23/06/98 03:41:47 Central Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> >I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical
> magicians
>
> Because physical magicians and physad still don't actually LOSE the Magic
> point ... It is SPENT but still there.

Yes, but when a physical magician spends it, it can't be used for things like
spell-casting... his Magic is considered an effective 4, because he invested 2
points in the power. That's all I'm suggesting be available to Sorcery,
Conjuring, and Enchanting Adpets.

Another thought... what about a detection spell that lets one see into the
astral?

Nexx
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:22:31 +0100
Nexx Many-Scars said on 22:38/22 Jun 98,...

> Would you allow a sorcery adept to lower his effective magic by 2 to get
> Astral Perception (like a physical adept)? Not buy anything else like an PAD
> but make their Magic for the purposes of sorcery (like max spell force and
> such) a 4, and allow them to use astral perception? Is it just me, or does
> this sound like a good , non-munchkinous, idea?

I wouldn't allow it, because I feel in essence you'd be making a
combination adept -- physad + sorcery adept. By modifying the
rules for physical magicians, I'd probably allow it, but then I'm
wondering why you'd want a sorcery adept/physad combo if a
true physical mage can do just that little bit more (namely
summon spirits)?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nobody has a nicely-balanced range of obsessions
which they dabble in when they feel like it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:22:32 +0100
Alfredo B Alves said on 3:24/23 Jun 98,...

> Because physical magicians and physad still don't actually LOSE the Magic
> point ... It is SPENT but still there.

For a physical magician, the points spent on physad powers are
effectively lost when it comes to casting spells. A physical
magician with astral perception as his or her only physad power
can only cast spells up to Force 4 without suffering physical
Drain, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nobody has a nicely-balanced range of obsessions
which they dabble in when they feel like it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:16:13 +0200
> > >I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical
> > magicians
> >
> > Because physical magicians and physad still don't actually LOSE the M=
agic
> > point ... It is SPENT but still there.
>
> Yes, but when a physical magician spends it, it can't be used for things=
like
> spell-casting... his Magic is considered an effective 4, because he inve=
sted 2
> points in the power. That's all I'm suggesting be available to Sorcery,
> Conjuring, and Enchanting Adpets.
>
> Another thought... what about a detection spell that lets one see into t=
he
> astral?

If you accept ED as a background for SR, it could be possible since
it exists in ED as a low level spell.

I would do something like this :

Deep eye [Detection]
Description : With this spell, the target is able to look in astral.
During the time the spell is sustained, the target is only capable of
seeing into astral, he can't see in the real world. The spell
requires a voluntary target.

New Physical Sense..........D
Sustained Spell.............+1 DT
Detection Spell.............-1 DT
Limited Range...............-1 DL
Voluntary Subject...........-1 DL
Complex Effect..............+1 DL

Total.......................(F/2)S

OR

Deep thought [Detection]
Description : By the use of the spell, the target is able to know the
position and nature of entities in the astral in the area of effect.
He cannot actually see them but gets the knowledge of their position.
The target continues seeing in the physical world. A voluntary
subject is needed.

Analyze Magical Energy........S
Sustained Spell...............+1 DT
Superficial Mind Interaction..+1 DT
Detection Spell...............-1 DT
Touch Required................-1 DT
Area Effect Spell.............+1 DL
Touch Required................-1 DL
Voluntary Subject.............-1 DL

Total.........................(F/2)M

AND THE LAST ONE

True Vision [Illusion]
Description : The spell creates an illusion of the astral scene in
the area effect. This gives the possibility for everyone to see
what's happening in the astral and thus gives the possibility for
physads to hit the spirits.

Very Realistic Illusion......S
Sustained Spell..............+1 DT
Area Effect Spell............+1 DL
Illusion Spell...............-1 DL
Limited Range................-1 DL
Complex Effect...............+1 DL

Total........................[(F/2)+1]S


    -
Cobra.                   =
                      
###
     'When all is wrong, it will get worse.'    
   ##=
######
                         =
                        
#=
####
           ####  #### 
##     #####   =
####      ########
          ###   ##  ##
####   ##  ## ##  #=
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Message no. 17
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:16:13 +0200
> I didn't quote because as far as I can tell, this hasn't been brought up
> but...
>
> Would you allow a sorcery adept to lower his effective magic by 2 to get
> Astral Perception (like a physical adept)? Not buy anything else like a=
n PAD
> but make their Magic for the purposes of sorcery (like max spell force a=
nd
> such) a 4, and allow them to use astral perception? Is it just me, or d=
oes
> this sound like a good , non-munchkinous, idea?

That seems fine to me.


    -
Cobra.                   =
                      
###
     'When all is wrong, it will get worse.'    
   ##=
######
                         =
                        
#=
####
           ####  #### 
##     #####   =
####      ########
          ###   ##  ##
####   ##  ## ##  #=
#      ########
######### ###   ##  ## ##  ## #####  ###### #### #######
#########  ####  ####  #####  ##  ## ##  ## ##########
Message no. 18
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:01:43 +1000
Nexx Many-Scars writes:

> > >I don't see why not... after all, that's what it costs Physical
> > magicians
> >
> > Because physical magicians and physad still don't actually LOSE the Magic
> > point ... It is SPENT but still there.
>
> Yes, but when a physical magician spends it, it can't be used for things
> like spell-casting... his Magic is considered an effective 4, because he
> invested 2 points in the power. That's all I'm suggesting be available to
> Sorcery, Conjuring, and Enchanting Adpets.

Although in a way I somewhat agree with Gurth about this type of procedure
more or less creating a combo sorcery-physical adept, I still think that
it's a good idea. After all, PAs can obtain the Astral Perception power by
spending 2 Magic Points, and they are the least likely magically active
types to be getting to see astral space in my view... So why not let other
adepts do the same for about the same cost in Magic Points? The only
concern I still have is that by spending 2 Magic Points, a PA has squandered
a full third of his magical ability. A sorcery adept who spend 2 Magic
Points is still nearly fully functional (or, more to the point, any sorcery
adept that any of my players created would be - they _never_ choose spells
that could result in drain - the damage snowball effect and all).

> Another thought... what about a detection spell that lets one see into the
> astral?

I am firmly against these because I feel that they are a simple, widely
available cop out for astral access that otherwise requires an awaful lot of
resources or dedication to obtain (even though there is a precedent for them
in Earthdawn). OTOH, I was very much intriuged and impressed by Cobras
illusion spell that mimiked the locations fo astral entities (which I'll
comment on elsewhere).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 19
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:09:07 +1000
wafflemiester writes:

> > It means that they are dual natured. I wouldn't say that they are
> > neccesarily astrally perceiving.
>
> ALL dual beings can percieve as a free action, at leastby the BBB.

Huhn? I would have said that all dual beings are automatically astrally
perceiving, actually. OTOH, exactly as you say below, the situation with
ritual sorcery is open to question given the wording (and the cyberzombie is
an excellent example of an astrally active critter that can't actually
astrally perceive - good logic).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sorcery Adepts and quickening
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:53:42 -0500
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:09:07 +1000 Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
writes:
>wafflemiester writes:
>> > It means that they are dual natured. I wouldn't say that they are
>> > neccesarily astrally perceiving.

>> ALL dual beings can percieve as a free action, at leastby the
BBB.
>
>Huhn? I would have said that all dual beings are automatically astrally
>perceiving, actually. OTOH, exactly as you say below, the situation
with
>ritual sorcery is open to question given the wording (and the
cyberzombie is
>an excellent example of an astrally active critter that can't actually
>astrally perceive - good logic).
>
>--
>Damion Milliken
<SNIP>

I think what he meant (Don't remember the original post, so I'm guessing)
is that Dual Natured critters are always perceiving and can percieve
(glance around as a free action but observe in detail is a Simple action

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Further Reading

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Thwap!