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Message no. 1
From: kimgoyret@*****.es (Jong-Won Kim)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:10:39 -0500 (CDT)
Hello all,

I'm planning to run an espionage campaign based on
World War 2, possibly throwing in some weird stuff
(like an alternate timeline and X Files-style alien
conspiracies).

While my original intention was to run it with d20
Modern as a way to test that particular game (although
using vitality rules from Spycraft, maybe guns too), I
am now tempted to GM with SR rules.

However, I have some questions that I'm hoping you can
help me with:

1) Character generation: If I go the SR route, it
would be with the Building Points system rather than
the Priority system (no, I've never tried BECKS, do
you think it is better?). Problem is that without
magic, cyberware, computers and races, you have to
choose only between attributes, skills, edges & flaws
and resources. How many BPs do you think would be
right? 120? 100?

2) Resources: Using yens would be treason in WW2 ;)
Real problem is prices. Some things were a lot cheaper
then, some didn't exist, some were insanely expensive.
How about dividing by 10 every price and the starting
money to make it more plausible, or saying that if you
choose X resources you automatically get a certain
lifestyle, are able to buy some things without problem
(which?), etc.

3) Weapons and armor: What kind of armor and weapons
existed at that time? (I don't think kevlar was an
option by then).

4) Vehicles: Are there any rules in Rigger 3 for
WW2-style airplanes?

5) Gear: Any specific gear I should remember it
exists/doesn't exist during WW2?

6) The party could later face the archetypal Nazi
Secret Project (TM), which should include some
"psionics" (manipulation, health and detection spells,
mainly), "ubermen" (using rules for Adepts) or mythic
paracritters straight out of the labs. Sounds right?

7) Think I should stick with a hybrid of d20 Modern &
Spycraft?

Thanks!
Jong-Won Kim
Montevideo, Uruguay.

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Message no. 2
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:25:25 -0300 (BRT)
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
>
> 1) Character generation: If I go the SR route, it
> would be with the Building Points system rather than
> the Priority system (no, I've never tried BECKS, do
> you think it is better?). Problem is that without
> magic, cyberware, computers and races, you have to
> choose only between attributes, skills, edges & flaws
> and resources. How many BPs do you think would be
> right? 120? 100?

I like BeCKS, mainly because it's free and I'm not quite willing to shell
out the cash for a 3rd Edition SRC :). Anyway, a somewhat lower point
total is appropriate unless you want your PCs to be some kind of
special forces super-soldiers.

> 2) Resources: Using yens would be treason in WW2 ;)
> Real problem is prices. Some things were a lot cheaper
> then, some didn't exist, some were insanely expensive.
> How about dividing by 10 every price and the starting
> money to make it more plausible, or saying that if you
> choose X resources you automatically get a certain
> lifestyle, are able to buy some things without problem
> (which?), etc.

The PCs are probably going to be soldiers, right? If so, you don't need to
care about money, since they'll be issued all the gear the government
thinks they need :). If they require anything else, they'll have to either
scrounge it from the battlefield or trade favors with corrupt
quartermasters.

> 3) Weapons and armor: What kind of armor and weapons
> existed at that time? (I don't think kevlar was an
> option by then).

IIRC, there was no armor to speak of except for some heavy overcoats
intended to protect mainly against shrapnel. They'd be heavy,
unconfortable, and probably no better than SR armored clothing (3/0 or
2/1).

For weapons, you'd have light or "medium" (7M) pistols, semi-automatic
rifles (equivalent to SR hunting rifles), the occasional SMG, offensive
grenades, and, very rarely, a bazooka or a flamethrower.

> 4) Vehicles: Are there any rules in Rigger 3 for
> WW2-style airplanes?

You can create fixed-wing planes with propeller engines, put some
hardpoints on them, and fake the rest :).

> 5) Gear: Any specific gear I should remember it
> exists/doesn't exist during WW2?

Radios and communication equipment is large, heavy and fragile. Usually,
only one soldier in a sizable unit carries a radio, to communicate with
other units.

> 6) The party could later face the archetypal Nazi
> Secret Project (TM), which should include some
> "psionics" (manipulation, health and detection spells,
> mainly), "ubermen" (using rules for Adepts) or mythic
> paracritters straight out of the labs. Sounds right?

It does, but your PCs sure are in for a heavy beating unless they're
super-SpecOps types.

> 7) Think I should stick with a hybrid of d20 Modern &
> Spycraft?

No :).



--
Bira
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html ou
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:34:24 +0200
According to Jong-Won Kim, on Wednesday 01 October 2003 18:10 the word on
the street was...

> I'm planning to run an espionage campaign based on
> World War 2, possibly throwing in some weird stuff
> (like an alternate timeline and X Files-style alien
> conspiracies).

Cool :)

> While my original intention was to run it with d20
> Modern as a way to test that particular game (although
> using vitality rules from Spycraft, maybe guns too), I
> am now tempted to GM with SR rules.

I'd go for just about anything that isn't d20... IMO the system works sort
of for fantasy, but I wouldn't like using a level/class-based system in
any other kind of game. That aside from the fact that I think most d20
game mechanics are too limited.

> 1) Character generation: If I go the SR route, it
> would be with the Building Points system rather than
> the Priority system (no, I've never tried BECKS, do
> you think it is better?). Problem is that without
> magic, cyberware, computers and races, you have to
> choose only between attributes, skills, edges & flaws
> and resources. How many BPs do you think would be
> right? 120? 100?

I think you'd best determine this using a good equipment list. Once you've
established prices for the kind of stuff PCs will have access to, you can
write up BP costs for resources (hint: set it up so that there are no
five-point gaps in it, like in the SR Companion). After that, figuring out
how many BPs to give players is much easier, as you can adjust both sides
of the problem.

> 2) Resources: Using yens would be treason in WW2 ;)

Why, using anything other than plasticreds is treason! ;)

> Real problem is prices. Some things were a lot cheaper
> then, some didn't exist, some were insanely expensive.
> How about dividing by 10 every price and the starting
> money to make it more plausible, or saying that if you
> choose X resources you automatically get a certain
> lifestyle, are able to buy some things without problem
> (which?), etc.

The way I'd do it, would be to write up an equipment list that includes the
kind of equipment RPGs always make available, and assign everything on it
prices based on research into 1940s pricing. I wouldn't start with the SR
equipment list(s), though, because very little in it will be useful in
WWII. Rather, a good place to start would be an equipment list from
another game set in the same era, or thereabouts.

> 3) Weapons and armor: What kind of armor and weapons
> existed at that time? (I don't think kevlar was an
> option by then).

Find a good book on firearms, and chances are it will explain most of this
to you. There were far too many weapons available at the time to easily
list (let alone give stats for), so it would help if you have a setting in
mind. For example, if you want to play spies in 1937, with the players
discovering a Japanese plot to occupy parts of China, you won't need stats
for an M1 Garand or Sturmgewehr 44, because those are unlikely to be used
by spies, weren't used in the area, and/or weren't even ideas at the time,
but if you want the players to run around with soldiers in early-1945
Germany, you would want stats for those same weapons because they're
likely to be encountered.

As for armor, steel helmets is about the limit. Some body armor was
available, but generally only for special troops and/or occasions -- some
British Airborne troops at Arnhem had body armor, for example, as did US
Army Air Force bomber crews by the end of the war, but on the whole, the
only armor the PCs would be likely to encounter are helmets. Note, though,
that the tech was there to make reasonably effective body armor (it was in
World War I already) but it tended to be heavy or bulky, and usually both.

> 4) Vehicles: Are there any rules in Rigger 3 for
> WW2-style airplanes?

No, but you could probably make them using the R3 rules. Or at least,
something close enough for comfort -- and you can also break the rules if
you're modelling a real aircraft or other vehicle. Using R3, you can't
legally get eight heavy machine guns on a single-engined propellor-driven
plane, for example, but the P-47 Thunderbolt had them anyway. There's
nothing stopping you from making it like that if you want to.

> 5) Gear: Any specific gear I should remember it
> exists/doesn't exist during WW2?

That is a very difficult question to answer because of its wide scope. If I
were you, I'd go to a library and try to find books about World War II
soldiers and spy stuff, as well as about daily life. This should give a
reasonable idea of what was around, and what wasn't.

But basically: anything electronic isn't there, is too large to carry
easily, and/or has mechanical or other equivalents. Typewriters instead of
computers; one-time pads rather than voice scramblers; backpack radio
instead of a mobile phone; etc.

> 6) The party could later face the archetypal Nazi
> Secret Project (TM), which should include some
> "psionics" (manipulation, health and detection spells,
> mainly), "ubermen" (using rules for Adepts) or mythic
> paracritters straight out of the labs. Sounds right?

Sounds good to me. Depending on how you want to do it, you could drop hints
that these things exist, or you could suddenly put the players in the
middle of them. My preference would be for the first method, as that will
lower the unbelievability factor -- you know: "The world was just like the
real one for fifteen adventures, and now suddenly there's all this magic
stuff flying around!"

> 7) Think I should stick with a hybrid of d20 Modern &
> Spycraft?

I'd use whatever rules system you are most comfortable with. Unless
specifically written for the period, you'll need to make some changes and
write up an equipment list anyway, so you might as well do it for the
system you know/like best.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: pgrosse@********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:17:23 -0500
>
> I'm planning to run an espionage campaign based on
> World War 2, possibly throwing in some weird stuff
> (like an alternate timeline and X Files-style alien
> conspiracies).
>
> While my original intention was to run it with d20
> Modern as a way to test that particular game (although
> using vitality rules from Spycraft, maybe guns too), I
> am now tempted to GM with SR rules.
>
> However, I have some questions that I'm hoping you can
> help me with:
>
> 1) Character generation: If I go the SR route, it
> would be with the Building Points system rather than
> the Priority system (no, I've never tried BECKS, do
> you think it is better?). Problem is that without
> magic, cyberware, computers and races, you have to
> choose only between attributes, skills, edges & flaws
> and resources. How many BPs do you think would be
> right? 120? 100?
>
> 2) Resources: Using yens would be treason in WW2 ;)
> Real problem is prices. Some things were a lot cheaper
> then, some didn't exist, some were insanely expensive.
> How about dividing by 10 every price and the starting
> money to make it more plausible, or saying that if you
> choose X resources you automatically get a certain
> lifestyle, are able to buy some things without problem
> (which?), etc.
>
> 3) Weapons and armor: What kind of armor and weapons
> existed at that time? (I don't think kevlar was an
> option by then).
>
> 4) Vehicles: Are there any rules in Rigger 3 for
> WW2-style airplanes?
>
> 5) Gear: Any specific gear I should remember it
> exists/doesn't exist during WW2?
>
> 6) The party could later face the archetypal Nazi
> Secret Project (TM), which should include some
> "psionics" (manipulation, health and detection spells,
> mainly), "ubermen" (using rules for Adepts) or mythic
> paracritters straight out of the labs. Sounds right?
>
> 7) Think I should stick with a hybrid of d20 Modern &
> Spycraft?
>
> Thanks!
> Jong-Won Kim
> Montevideo, Uruguay.
>

Actually you might want to check out http://www.battlefieldpress.com
and look at the "Pulp Fiction" book. It's d20 rules, but it is set in
the 1920's to 1960's. It also has rules for the "Mad Scientist" type
person which would tie in nicely with the Nazi Secret Project (tm).

Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
PCGen OGL Gibbon
ICQ: 14397299
AO: Nylan
Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

"The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race
to keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
Message no. 5
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:23:53 +0200
At 11:10 01.10.2003 -0500, Jong-Won Kim wrote:

<snip>

>3) Weapons and armor: What kind of armor and weapons
>existed at that time? (I don't think kevlar was an
>option by then).

<snip>

>5) Gear: Any specific gear I should remember it
>exists/doesn't exist during WW2?

I'd suggest watching some DVDs:

Saving Private Ryan and A thin red line should give you enough ideas about
fighting and weapons back then,
Enigma is a good spy movie and of course you should watch the Indiana Jones
movies *g*



--
Arclight

"Her lips said no but her eyes said 'read my lips'..."
Message no. 6
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:44:13 -0500
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:10:39 -0500 (CDT), Jong-Won Kim
<kimgoyret@*****.es> wrote:

> 1) Character generation: If I go the SR route, it
> would be with the Building Points system rather than
> the Priority system (no, I've never tried BECKS, do
> you think it is better?). Problem is that without
> magic, cyberware, computers and races, you have to
> choose only between attributes, skills, edges & flaws
> and resources. How many BPs do you think would be
> right? 120? 100?

Depends. Here's what I'd do sit down and don't worry about the BPs and
make an average-joe soldier (or one for each "archetype"). Calculate the
average BPs over all the average-joes you made. Add 20-100% to that since
the players should be more survivable than the average-joe and use that.
Save the average-joes you've made to be generic NPCs, or futher modified
to become psions or ubermen.

> 7) Think I should stick with a hybrid of d20 Modern &
> Spycraft?

Low to no magic, tech closer to modern that to SR level, resources need to
be flexible, sounds like 3 good reasons to use d20 Modern.

However, no matter which system you use you are going to have to spend a
bit of time working out statistics for WWII era stuff, so it might help to
go with whatever system you find most comportable to improvise in and/or
the one you think making new equipment is fastest in.

--
Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: 514984
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 7
From: talmeta@*******.net (Tal Meta)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:19:01 -0400
Da Twink Daddy wrote:
> However, no matter which system you use you are going to have to spend a
> bit of time working out statistics for WWII era stuff, so it might help
> to go with whatever system you find most comportable to improvise in
> and/or the one you think making new equipment is fastest in.

Weird Wars II, by Pinnacle. d20, but a source for all things WWII.

--
talmeta@*******.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine
AIM - talmeta
ICQ - 12594453
Homepage - <http://talmeta.net>;

My girlfriend and I went on a picnic. I don't know how she did it, but
she got poison ivy on the brain. When it itched, the only way she could
scratch it was to think about sandpaper. -- Steven Wright
Message no. 8
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:24:37 -0700
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:19:01 -0400
Tal Meta <talmeta@*******.net> wrote:
> Da Twink Daddy wrote:
> >However, no matter which system you use you are going to have to spend a
> >bit of time working out statistics for WWII era stuff, so it might help
> >to go with whatever system you find most comportable to improvise in
> >and/or the one you think making new equipment is fastest in.
>
> Weird Wars II, by Pinnacle. d20, but a source for all things WWII.
>
> --
Actually, you don't have to superdetail the weapon stats, just benchmark
standard rifles, SMGs, pistols, etc. from an existing standard weapons list.
You will want to NAME them names appropriate to the army and period. You'll
have a lot more detail to get boged down in, you don't have to add the
weapons to the list.
Unless you like weapons, and/or the players are gun bunnies.
--Anders
Message no. 9
From: kimgoyret@*****.es (Jong-Won Kim)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:32:24 -0500 (CDT)
Hello all!

Wow, thanks for so much advise in such a short time.
We're having a meeting tomorrow to decide what is the
exact type of campaign we want and, therefore, which
system would be more adequate.

I'd like to correct something people keep getting
confused with: This is not going to be a GI campaign,
but one of spies. That means intrigue in Lisbon
instead of gunfights in El Alamein, teaming up with
the French Maquis instead of Gurkhas in El Alamein,
helping the G-Men stop a Nazi spy from blowing up the
USS Augusta, while Roosevelt and Churchill are having
their meeting, etc.

@ Paul Grosse: Thanks for the link. Looks cool,
although it seems the games haven't been released yet.

@ Phillip Gawlowski: Hey, that german slang might be
useful for us too, thanks ;)

@ Tal Meta: Thanks for the reference. However, my
options are SR3, d20 Modern, Spycraft and Pulp Heroes
(the mini game in the back of Jan/02 Dungeon
Magazine). I think they all have their own merits and
flaws, allowing for different kinds of campaigns. It
will depend on what we decide tomorrow. However, my
heart's with SR.

Ok, suppose we walk the Path of Shadowrun:

-BPs: I'm tihnking of giving less than 120 points
()perhaps 100) for attributes, skills, resources,
contacts and edges & flaws.
However, resources would only be used to determine
lifestyle and maybe enemies. Resources would have a
very low impact outside that (government provides with
spy gear), so maybe it could be reduced to a range of
1-5 BPs: 1 BP Squatter, 2BP Low, 3 BP Middle-class,
etc.
Contacts could bought with either the Extra Contact
edge, or by spending BPs: 1 BP for a L1 contact, 3 BP
for a L2 contact, 5 BP for a L3 contact (no, I haven't
tested these numbers, but I think they look
reasonable). Alternatively, I could rule out that
resources don't come with enemies, but getting a L2 or
a L3 contact does.

Example:

Average GI
BPs:
3 Middle class american
3 Edges (any)
2 Extra contacts (L1 x2)
42 Attributes: 21 points (Physicals at 4, Mentals at
3)
40 Skills: 40 points
---
90 BPs

So, assuming the characters are a little above the
average, that could mean 100 BPs?

-WW2 Vehicles: My father-in-law has dozens of WW2
books, including tech specs for every airplane,
battleship & tank. I only have to give them SR3 stats
:) Civilian vehicles might need a little reasearch,
though.

-Gear: I'll probably set a single damage code for each
kind of firearm, with the differences being
concealability, ammo capacity, etc. I do need to find
the exact guns used, however.

-Suppose a player suffers some genetical experiments
while captive... Giving them some SURGE-like modifiers
could do the trick? Or maybe giving him an Edge PLUS a
Flaw (can't remove it without removing the bonus).

Food for thought...

Saludos,
Jong-Won Kim



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com
Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: (S-OT) World War 2 campaign: advise needed
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:55:59 +0200
According to Jong-Won Kim, on Friday 03 October 2003 20:32 the word on the
street was...

> -WW2 Vehicles: My father-in-law has dozens of WW2
> books, including tech specs for every airplane,
> battleship & tank.

If he only has dozens of books, he does not have stats for _every_
aircraft, battleship, and tank :)

> I only have to give them SR3 stats :)

Like I said, that's not too difficult if you don't try to stick to R3
design rules religiously.

> Civilian vehicles might need a little reasearch,
> though.

These will be fairly easy, because all they'll really differ in will be the
number of passengers they can carry, and their top speeds. OK, fuel
capacity and consumption may vary a bit, too, but this is not normally a
worry during games unless the PCs need to drive their car for a long
distance.

> -Gear: I'll probably set a single damage code for each
> kind of firearm, with the differences being
> concealability, ammo capacity, etc. I do need to find
> the exact guns used, however.

Like I said before, this depends a lot on what exactly you want the game to
be like, and where it will be set.

> -Suppose a player suffers some genetical experiments
> while captive... Giving them some SURGE-like modifiers
> could do the trick? Or maybe giving him an Edge PLUS a
> Flaw (can't remove it without removing the bonus).

Sounds good to me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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