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Message no. 1
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:01:55 -0500
From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@********.net>
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> >
> > I think FASA have been working hard to make sure they update their old
> books
> > for the new players; you can play the game with the BBB, SRComp, M&M,
CC,
> > MITS and The Matrix (TM?), you only need Rigger2 to have access to every
> > rule in the game.

Very True... that, and just a few maps. The *MOST* important fluff material
of all the books is what is to be found in the very front of the SR3
sourcebook. For whatever reason, I keep finding out that players (some of
mine own included) just don't want to read that section. Hell, they don't
even realize just how much that lays out for people.

> This is true... but these books only apply to the rules to the game... and
> though the rules are obviously important, you also need somewhere to play.

So get a map or three. Hell, this is the Internet Age and quite honestly if
you are in most of the civilized nations of the world (which outside of
those, you won't be able to find Shadowrun anyway) you can gain access to
the Internet. And the Internet is a hell of lot more important nowadays
than a game so I'm sure you can find reasons and motivations to do something
to gain the access if you truly want to.

> The books that fasa has spent so much time in the way of keeping up to
date
> are the rules... the ones that they've pushed aside are the world.

I have a really good argument coming up...

> If you are a new GM to shadowrun, there is some info in the back of the
> rulebook... but not enough if you really want to flesh out a good ongoing
> campaign... locations, NPCs, corporations, run ideas, etc... all come from
> the sourcebooks... and overall are probably the most important parts to
the
> game... more important than the rules.

Not the back, the front.

Okay, now for the counter-argument.

Though I very much agree that the "sourcebook material" is also important
(background, fluff, filler, etc...), I completely disagree with the
mentality and approach of individuals such as yourselves. My reason for
this disagreement in viewpoints?

Simple.

The Veterans also did not have the "sourcebooks" to draw upon with possibly
one-exception and *THAT* one has been covered already in SR3 (and in many
ways, far better than the original).

Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our imaginations. We
didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain
email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I first
encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it).

We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material. We didn't have quality
adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon and/or
Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here and
now... barely usable as toilet paper). We didn't have flushed out volumes
of information for Tir Tairngire.

We *ONLY* had the material in the *beginning* of the SR1 Hardback/Softbacks
and ... the Seattle Sourcebook (which btw, is the same pattern of
developments that have come forth since SR3's started).

You may not remember, or perhaps you (speaking collectively here, not just
aimed at you Augustus) are just plain impatient because you here the stories
and the tales from the rest of us. I don't know. But I *DO* know that the
development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the calendar
dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well.

I can also tell you this.

Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a significant
advantage over the rest of us. Can you figure out what it is yet???

You have *US*. You have the Veterans to draw upon. We (again, speaking
collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many years
and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to go
through now. You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest of us
questions.

Yes, some of us may not be able to answer every question that comes along.
So be it, no one can. The only reason that Tom Dowd (if you deemed it
necessary to call him) had "an answer for everything" is because he viewed
the entirety of Shadowrun as *HIS* game. And as such, he answered those
questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well.

He made a GM Call.

And you know what, I can tell you from experience as one of those people who
called Tom on more than a few occasions, that his calls often just did NOT
coincide with the rules in the books or even (as I also found out from
experience) didn't even match his previous "answers" he'd given to me.

SR3 is not "Mulvihillrun" (word taken from an old joke other members of this
list may remember about "Keithrun"). When a question about SR3 comes up,
he, Rob or even many of the Freelancers/Playtesters are likely to ultimately
come down to one of just a few responses.

Is it in a book? If its not, why not and can we fix it?

Does your thoughts mesh with your own game? If so, then you aren't doing
anything wrong... you're playing the game the way it works best for you and
your players.

Is it something I even have an answer for? If not, then lets see if we can
at least figure it out together.

Geesh, I realize that many people new to role-playing games have a
significant trouble in being "an individual". That is ultimately what this
is coming down to. Do you want to a run a game "with the pack", or "that
is
going to be like the games that FASA is producing"? Or are you going to run
"Your own Individually Flavored Game"?

If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of the books about somewhere in
the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking. Maybe I'm too lazy to look even..
at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so.

I make it up.

I keep playing the game. So what if FASA comes along later and produces
some material that is different than what I did (trust me on this, I was
told specifically why my Aztechnology submission for Corporate Download
didn't make the cut for example and it is because I saw Aztechnology in a
far different light than what was going to work in the "canon" gameverse).

Now I realize that it is also frustrating. Lord how I do remember being
frustrated for not knowing certain things that would have made the games I
was running or even playing so much smoother. I remember how I wish I
didn't have to "make up" stuff for St. Louis MO when it came time for the
"Ubyr Games of 1999" because the I knew that eventually the players would
wind up going that direction. I still did it. And hell, I can guarantee
you that the stuff I made up wound up capturing my players attention far
better than anything FASA would have the ability to come up with. I
remember wishing I had more than just "mere rumors" to go on when I was
running my first "Aztlan Summerfest" PBEM almost 9 years ago now, but in the
end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and could keep
my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM).

I also have paid some very close attention to the books that have come out
since the release of SR3. I have noted the sheer volume of "fluff" and
"filler" that is in those books. What, you mean you have to have it spelled
out for you? You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the Second
Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the megas
has established for itself??? I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you the same
thing I tell those that ask me (and some of my players for that matter).

"Go back and read the books, its obvious to me at least you haven't let your
own imaginations run loose enough."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
THREEH.COM (www.threeh.com)
Message no. 2
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:12:08 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "NeoJudas" <neojudas@******************.com>

> Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a significant
> advantage over the rest of us. Can you figure out what it is yet???
>
> You have *US*. You have the Veterans to draw upon. We (again, speaking
> collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many
years
> and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to go
> through now. You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest of us
> questions.

JOY! Hey, everyone, we have K! It's like having your very own harpy... I
mean, birdm... no, bomba... not it either... what is the creature I'm
looking for?

:-)

Nexx, who has to elbow K in the ribs at least _once_ in a while.
Message no. 3
From: NightLife NightLife@********.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:05:05 -0500
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>So get a map or three. Hell, this is the Internet Age and quite honestly if
>you are in most of the civilized nations of the world (which outside of
>those, you won't be able to find Shadowrun anyway) you can gain access to
>the Internet. And the Internet is a hell of lot more important nowadays
>than a game so I'm sure you can find reasons and motivations to do something
>to gain the access if you truly want to.

Excuse me. I'm usually a lurker anymore as things have been on bullet train
which doesn't bother to stop unless you have a Fasa press pass but this is
ridiculous. You're telling thing fellow that to run his game he needs to
have Internet access, in addition to that he needs a computer with a
printer or to somehow remember every tidbit photographically. There are
plenty of people ( kids in junior high, high-schoolers, college student
etc.... who only have access to a computer either at their school lab or
the library. Fasa has spewed a whole lot of junk over the last few years
asking for a few maps of the city that been made into a book you're using
isn't much to ask when these book all cost about $20.00. If someone spends
their money on a game they have the right to actually expect things in them
to be useful. Maps are one of the most useful things out there.

>Though I very much agree that the "sourcebook material" is also important
>(background, fluff, filler, etc...), I completely disagree with the
>mentality and approach of individuals such as yourselves. My reason for
>this disagreement in viewpoints?
>
>Simple.
>
>The Veterans also did not have the "sourcebooks" to draw upon with possibly
>one-exception and *THAT* one has been covered already in SR3 (and in many
>ways, far better than the original).
>
>Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our imaginations. We
>didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain
>email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I first
>encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it).
>
>We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material. We didn't have quality
>adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon and/or
>Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here and
>now... barely usable as toilet paper). We didn't have flushed out volumes
>of information for Tir Tairngire.
>
>We *ONLY* had the material in the *beginning* of the SR1 Hardback/Softbacks
>and ... the Seattle Sourcebook (which btw, is the same pattern of
>developments that have come forth since SR3's started).

So what! This is one of the most elitist line I've ever read. We didn't
have anything to use so you shouldn't either. Bullpucky. That along the
lines I had a hard life so my kids are going to have one too.

>You may not remember, or perhaps you (speaking collectively here, not just
>aimed at you Augustus) are just plain impatient because you here the stories
>and the tales from the rest of us. I don't know. But I *DO* know that the
>development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the calendar
>dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well.
>
>I can also tell you this.
>
>Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a significant
>advantage over the rest of us. Can you figure out what it is yet???
>
>You have *US*. You have the Veterans to draw upon. We (again, speaking
>collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many years
>and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to go
>through now. You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest of us
>questions.
>
>Yes, some of us may not be able to answer every question that comes along.
>So be it, no one can. The only reason that Tom Dowd (if you deemed it
>necessary to call him) had "an answer for everything" is because he viewed
>the entirety of Shadowrun as *HIS* game. And as such, he answered those
>questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well.

Jeze Louise. You have us. I've been around the block since 1st edition too
but this is ridiculous. You don't need source material because the veterans
have had to make it up. The veterans didn't have a source book and got
along just fine without it. As for their release schedule. They go ahead
and push products back because they know that every Fasacist will rally to
their defense and say hey give them some more time they're working hard and
they're just human. Sure deadlines get missed but as a paying customer you
should be allowed to raise some hell without everybody and their mother
jumping on your back a force feeding you a piece of their mind. If you late
to work expect to get docked. But because of the general opinion Fasa
doesn't. I don't care if you're Mike's best bud or something like that.
They're a company it about time they started to act like one.

>And you know what, I can tell you from experience as one of those people who
>called Tom on more than a few occasions, that his calls often just did NOT
>coincide with the rules in the books or even (as I also found out from
>experience) didn't even match his previous "answers" he'd given to me.
>
>SR3 is not "Mulvihillrun" (word taken from an old joke other members of this
>list may remember about "Keithrun"). When a question about SR3 comes up,
>he, Rob or even many of the Freelancers/Playtesters are likely to ultimately
>come down to one of just a few responses.
>
>Is it in a book? If its not, why not and can we fix it?
>
>Does your thoughts mesh with your own game? If so, then you aren't doing
>anything wrong... you're playing the game the way it works best for you and
>your players.
>
>Is it something I even have an answer for? If not, then lets see if we can
>at least figure it out together.
>
>Geesh, I realize that many people new to role-playing games have a
>significant trouble in being "an individual". That is ultimately what this
>is coming down to. Do you want to a run a game "with the pack", or
"that is
>going to be like the games that FASA is producing"? Or are you going to run
>"Your own Individually Flavored Game"?

That is complete and utter drivel. What ever he wants he is a paying
customer who regardless of his style or lack there of is entitled to say
I'm paying x amount of dollars here a book. I'd like to see some of "Y".

>If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of the books about somewhere in
>the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking. Maybe I'm too lazy to look even..
>at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so.
>
>I make it up.

Hat's off to you. He's not asking for an entire world to pre-made for him
just some useful supplements.

>I keep playing the game. So what if FASA comes along later and produces
>some material that is different than what I did (trust me on this, I was
>told specifically why my Aztechnology submission for Corporate Download
>didn't make the cut for example and it is because I saw Aztechnology in a
>far different light than what was going to work in the "canon" gameverse).
>
>Now I realize that it is also frustrating. Lord how I do remember being
>frustrated for not knowing certain things that would have made the games I
>was running or even playing so much smoother. I remember how I wish I
>didn't have to "make up" stuff for St. Louis MO when it came time for the
>"Ubyr Games of 1999" because the I knew that eventually the players would
>wind up going that direction. I still did it. And hell, I can guarantee
>you that the stuff I made up wound up capturing my players attention far
>better than anything FASA would have the ability to come up with. I
>remember wishing I had more than just "mere rumors" to go on when I was
>running my first "Aztlan Summerfest" PBEM almost 9 years ago now, but in the
>end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and could keep
>my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM).

That's great for you. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do all this.

>I also have paid some very close attention to the books that have come out
>since the release of SR3. I have noted the sheer volume of "fluff" and
>"filler" that is in those books. What, you mean you have to have it spelled
>out for you? You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the Second
>Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the megas
>has established for itself??? I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you the same
>thing I tell those that ask me (and some of my players for that matter).
>
>"Go back and read the books, its obvious to me at least you haven't let your
>own imaginations run loose enough."
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")

K as somebody who has met you I can say I'm surprised. This fellow has a
valid opinion and one that I happen to back whole heartedly. As some who
watched this list develop into factions and what not. The Fasacist over
here, the newbies over their, the friends of the Fasacists right next to
them, the writers for SR one row of seats above, old timers under Gurth's
stairs etc........ Now it a place where sides decide what get talked about,
who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who buddy buddy
with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to Fasa who's
accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike would tear into
somebody without out fear of retribution because he was friends with this
group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas card list. I can also
remember when things where somewhat fair, before this elitist attitude
overtook the whole list and half of those who used to be here left. It's a
sad thing. I also realize this will probably get me banned but I don't care
anymore.

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite cite>So get a map or three.&nbsp; Hell, this is the
Internet Age and quite honestly if<br>
you are in most of the civilized nations of the world (which outside
of<br>
those, you won't be able to find Shadowrun anyway) you can gain access
to<br>
the Internet.&nbsp; And the Internet is a hell of lot more important
nowadays<br>
than a game so I'm sure you can find reasons and motivations to do
something<br>
to gain the access if you truly want to.<br>
</blockquote><br>
Excuse me. I'm usually a lurker anymore as things have been on bullet
train which doesn't bother to stop unless you have a Fasa press pass but
this is ridiculous. You're telling thing fellow that to run his game he
needs to have Internet access, in addition to that he needs a computer
with a printer or to somehow remember every tidbit photographically.
There are plenty of people ( kids in junior high, high-schoolers, college
student etc.... who only have access to a computer either at their school
lab or the library. Fasa has spewed a whole lot of junk over the last few
years asking for a few maps of the city that been made into a book you're
using isn't much to ask when these book all cost about $20.00. If someone
spends their money on a game they have the right to actually expect
things in them to be useful. Maps are one of the most useful things out
there.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Though I very much agree that the
&quot;sourcebook material&quot; is also important<br>
(background, fluff, filler, etc...), I completely disagree with the<br>
mentality and approach of individuals such as yourselves.&nbsp; My reason
for<br>
this disagreement in viewpoints?<br>
<br>
Simple.<br>
<br>
The Veterans also did not have the &quot;sourcebooks&quot; to draw upon
with possibly<br>
one-exception and *THAT* one has been covered already in SR3 (and in
many<br>
ways, far better than the original).<br>
<br>
Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our
imaginations.&nbsp; We<br>
didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain<br>
email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I
first<br>
encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it).<br>
<br>
We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material.&nbsp; We didn't have
quality<br>
adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon
and/or<br>
Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here
and<br>
now... barely usable as toilet paper).&nbsp; We didn't have flushed out
volumes<br>
of information for Tir Tairngire.<br>
<br>
We *ONLY* had the material in the *beginning* of the SR1
Hardback/Softbacks<br>
and ... the Seattle Sourcebook (which btw, is the same pattern of<br>
developments that have come forth since SR3's started).<br>
</blockquote><br>
So what! This is one of the most elitist line I've ever read. We didn't
have anything to use so you shouldn't either. Bullpucky. That along the
lines I had a hard life so my kids are going to have one too.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>You may not remember, or perhaps you (speaking
collectively here, not just<br>
aimed at you Augustus) are just plain impatient because you here the
stories<br>
and the tales from the rest of us.&nbsp; I don't know.&nbsp; But I *DO*
know that the<br>
development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the
calendar<br>
dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well.<br>
<br>
I can also tell you this.<br>
<br>
Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a
significant<br>
advantage over the rest of us.&nbsp; Can you figure out what it is
yet???<br>
<br>
You have *US*.&nbsp; You have the Veterans to draw upon.&nbsp; We (again,
speaking<br>
collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many
years<br>
and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to
go<br>
through now.&nbsp; You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest
of us<br>
questions.<br>
<br>
Yes, some of us may not be able to answer every question that comes
along.<br>
So be it, no one can.&nbsp; The only reason that Tom Dowd (if you deemed
it<br>
necessary to call him) had &quot;an answer for everything&quot; is
because he viewed<br>
the entirety of Shadowrun as *HIS* game.&nbsp; And as such, he answered
those<br>
questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well.<br>
</blockquote><br>
Jeze&nbsp; Louise. You have us. I've been around the block since 1st
edition too but this is ridiculous. You don't need source material
because the veterans have had to make it up. The veterans didn't have a
source book and got along just fine without it. As for their release
schedule. They go ahead and push products back because they <u>know</u>
that every Fasacist will rally to their defense and say hey give them
some more time they're working hard and they're just human. Sure
deadlines get missed but as a paying customer you should be allowed to
raise some hell without everybody and their mother jumping on your back a
force feeding you a piece of their mind. If you late to work expect to
get docked. But because of the general opinion Fasa doesn't. I don't care
if you're Mike's best bud or something like that. They're a company it
about time they started to act like one.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>And you know what, I can tell you from
experience as one of those people who<br>
called Tom on more than a few occasions, that his calls often just did
NOT<br>
coincide with the rules in the books or even (as I also found out
from<br>
experience) didn't even match his previous &quot;answers&quot; he'd given
to me.<br>
<br>
SR3 is not &quot;Mulvihillrun&quot; (word taken from an old joke other
members of this<br>
list may remember about &quot;Keithrun&quot;).&nbsp; When a question
about SR3 comes up,<br>
he, Rob or even many of the Freelancers/Playtesters are likely to
ultimately<br>
come down to one of just a few responses.<br>
<br>
Is it in a book?&nbsp; If its not, why not and can we fix it?<br>
<br>
Does your thoughts mesh with your own game?&nbsp; If so, then you aren't
doing<br>
anything wrong... you're playing the game the way it works best for you
and<br>
your players.<br>
<br>
Is it something I even have an answer for?&nbsp; If not, then lets see if
we can<br>
at least figure it out together.<br>
<br>
Geesh, I realize that many people new to role-playing games have a<br>
significant trouble in being &quot;an individual&quot;.&nbsp; That is
ultimately what this<br>
is coming down to.&nbsp; Do you want to a run a game &quot;with the
pack&quot;, or &quot;that is<br>
going to be like the games that FASA is producing&quot;?&nbsp; Or are you
going to run<br>
&quot;Your own Individually Flavored Game&quot;?<br>
</blockquote><br>
That is complete and utter drivel. What ever he wants he is a
<u>paying</u> customer who regardless of his style or lack there of is
entitled to say I'm paying x amount of dollars here a book. I'd like to
see some of &quot;Y&quot;.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of
the books about somewhere in<br>
the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking.&nbsp; Maybe I'm too lazy to look
even..<br>
at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so.<br>
<br>
I make it up.<br>
</blockquote><br>
Hat's off to you. He's not asking for an entire world to pre-made for him
just some useful supplements. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>I keep playing the game.&nbsp; So what if FASA
comes along later and produces<br>
some material that is different than what I did (trust me on this, I
was<br>
told specifically why my Aztechnology submission for Corporate
Download<br>
didn't make the cut for example and it is because I saw Aztechnology in
a<br>
far different light than what was going to work in the &quot;canon&quot;
gameverse).<br>
<br>
Now I realize that it is also frustrating.&nbsp; Lord how I do remember
being<br>
frustrated for not knowing certain things that would have made the games
I<br>
was running or even playing so much smoother.&nbsp; I remember how I wish
I<br>
didn't have to &quot;make up&quot; stuff for St. Louis MO when it came
time for the<br>
&quot;Ubyr Games of 1999&quot; because the I knew that eventually the
players would<br>
wind up going that direction.&nbsp; I still did it.&nbsp; And hell, I can
guarantee<br>
you that the stuff I made up wound up capturing my players attention
far<br>
better than anything FASA would have the ability to come up with.&nbsp;
I<br>
remember wishing I had more than just &quot;mere rumors&quot; to go on
when I was<br>
running my first &quot;Aztlan Summerfest&quot; PBEM almost 9 years ago
now, but in the<br>
end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and could
keep<br>
my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM).<br>
</blockquote><br>
That's great for you. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do all
this. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>I also have paid some very close attention to
the books that have come out<br>
since the release of SR3.&nbsp; I have noted the sheer volume of
&quot;fluff&quot; and<br>
&quot;filler&quot; that is in those books.&nbsp; What, you mean you have
to have it spelled<br>
out for you?&nbsp; You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the
Second<br>
Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the
megas<br>
has established for itself???&nbsp; I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you the
same<br>
thing I tell those that ask me (and some of my players for that
matter).<br>
<br>
&quot;Go back and read the books, its obvious to me at least you haven't
let your<br>
own imaginations run loose enough.&quot;<br>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-<br>
J. Keith Henry (&quot;K&quot;
&quot;NeoJudas&quot;)</blockquote><br>
K as somebody who has met you I can say I'm surprised. This fellow has a
valid opinion and one that I happen to back whole heartedly. As some who
watched this list develop into factions and what not. The Fasacist over
here, the newbies over their, the friends of the Fasacists right next to
them, the writers for SR one row of seats above, old timers under Gurth's
stairs etc........ Now it a place where sides decide what get talked
about, who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who
buddy buddy with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to
Fasa who's accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike
would tear into somebody without out fear of retribution because he was
friends with this group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas
card list. I can also remember when things where somewhat fair, before
this elitist attitude overtook the whole list and half of those who used
to be here left. It's a sad thing. I also realize this will probably get
me banned but I don't care anymore.<br>
</html>

--=====================_26031731==_.ALT--
Message no. 4
From: Brother Justice brother_justice@*******.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:45:22 EST
>From: NightLife <NightLife@********.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:05:05 -0500
>
>
>
>Now it a place where sides decide what get talked about,
>who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who buddy buddy
>with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to Fasa who's
>accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike would tear into
>somebody without out fear of retribution because he was friends with this
>group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas card list. I can also
>remember when things where somewhat fair, before this elitist attitude
>overtook the whole list and half of those who used to be here left. It's a
>sad thing. I also realize this will probably get me banned but I don't care
>anymore.

NightLife, I'll be right behind you going out the door if that's the case.
Sentiments long felt by myself have finally come to light in a much better
way than I could state it. And though, you'll probably not know how much
what you said helped, you've given me a lot to think about. And yes, I
realize that this probably should have gone off-list, but I wanted to show
some support to what NL had to say.
_________________________________________________________________________
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http://profiles.msn.com.
Message no. 5
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:54:17 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
>
>
> Not the back, the front.

You are refering to the history and brief overview... the actual sourcebook
for Seattle starts on page 313.

> Okay, now for the counter-argument.
>
> Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our imaginations.

Hmm... maybe you were living in a small town or something... in the first 7
months that SR1 was out there was 6 or 7 items released.

> We didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain
> email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I
first
> encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it).

Yep, I was there back then... I know just how it was. The internet has come
a long way since then... maybe if people today knew what it was like back
then, they'd have a greater appreciation for it today.

>
But I *DO* know that the
> development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the
calendar
> dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well.

Nah... for SR3 the stuff is coming out at a snail's pace... SR3 is over 2
years old now... but if we look at the first 2œ years of SR3 development we
get this (I say 2œ years to take into account Rigger 3 and Tale of the Comet
should be out by then)

So for Shadowrun 3 we have:
Adventures in first 2œ years: 4
Sourcebooks in first 2œ years: 10
(This counts the main rulebook only once... not taking into
account
that there was both a hard and softcover edition. It
also counts
the "quickstart" book too)

And for Shadowrun 1 we had:
Adventures in first 2œ years: 10
Sourcebooks in first 2œ years: 15

>
> I can also tell you this.
>
> Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a significant
> advantage over the rest of us. Can you figure out what it is yet???
>
> You have *US*. You have the Veterans to draw upon. We (again, speaking
> collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many
years
> and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to go
> through now. You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest of us
> questions.

You know... when I first read this I had a flashback to about 2 months ago
in the IRC channel #shadowrun... this new guy came in and was asking about
some stuff cuz he wanted to play an adept and needed rules clarifications.

Anyhow eventually the topic of weapon came up and the whole channel pretty
much jumped all over the guy because he wouldn't take a magical dikote
coated katana as his weapon focus.

And I mean they really jumped all over him... For a bunch of people who
seem so proud of how they aren't munchkin, they really should stop and think
about it for a second (and yes, in the channel it was actually the regulars
that were hounding this guy into taking the weapon)

But anyhow... your point... the internet...

Firstly, you are assuming that everybody who plays shadowrun is on the
internet talking in here, the dumpshock forums and on the IRC channel... if
that was the case this list would be a hell of alot busier than it is...
that or if this is all the players Fasa better do something fast to drum up
more players.

But aside from that smart-ass comeback there are 2 points here I can make:

1) Why should players feel a need to come to the internet for help? Yes the
net is here... yes its big and covers alot of stuff... its great for sharing
ideas... but you shouldn't utterly feel compelled to log in to better enjoy
your game.
And the net is slow, to a degree... if I come in here and ask a question
about something from the old books... its a crap shoot if I get an answer...
let alone a correct answer. And even if I get an answer, it might come in
2 or 3 days later (I started playing shadowrun in 1989, I got all the
books... I still ask questions... and alot of them don't get answered in
here at all)

2) This one is hard to say delicatly enough... but oh well... so I'll just
say it outright... there is alot of really shitty politics going around the
online shadowrun community.
Obviously I can't go in to details since it would just get me kicked off
this list, banned from #shadowrun and probably unable to do anything in the
dumpshock forums... so I'll just leave this as enough and with a wink say
"you all know what I mean"

So no... the online community isn't a great one... there are lots of
resources and things to read... but again... downloading maps and info
doesn't earn any money for Fasa... and thats kinda the original thought
behind this whole conversation... Fasa wants to put out more sourcebooks and
make more money.... so that they can continue to put out more sourcebooks in
the future and make more money in the future...

> . And as such, he
answered those
> questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well.
>
> He made a GM Call.

Some GMs can do this... some can't. Its one of the skills that make up a
great GM.

But the problem with your answer there is... you are thinking only about
you... you are assuming everybody is like you... you are not the be all and
end all of Shadowrun GMs. Try to remember, there are novice GMs out
there... sure they might be too far below you for you to consider, but they
are the future of the game.

> If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of the books about somewhere
in
> the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking. Maybe I'm too lazy to look even..
> at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so.

This is like like good GMing... some can do it... some can't. To some,
trying to think of the whole world and all its NPCs it just too daunting a
task... they want it all spelled out...

For others they'd like something to tie it all together...

For some of the remaining few... they want something that will have some
semblance of cohesion and consistancy.

For myself... I play in my own shadowrun universe... I have things in it
that some might scoff at... lots of stuff that everybody will recognize...
but I just had my own specific wants and desires in the way of a game
world... and so I had to come up with my own setting.

But... that doesn't mean that everybody can do that... my world is well
layed out, lots of detail and the 4 sourcebooks I have total about 460
pages... but I had plenty of time to write it, and I have a great
imagination. Time and imagination isn't something everybody has to the same
degrees.

> I also have paid some very close attention to the books that have come out
> since the release of SR3. I have noted the sheer volume of "fluff" and
> "filler" that is in those books. What, you mean you have to have it
spelled
> out for you? You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the Second
> Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the megas
> has established for itself???

?

I can't see how you totally veered this off to another tangent... the point
here wasn't about how much people needed spelled out for them... if thats
the impression you got then go back and reread the previous posts.

The point was... some people want a new and updated sourcebook covering all
of North America.
Their 2 main points for why this should happen:
-Almost all the books are out of print and expensive on eBay
-Most of the info on North America is from 2050-2052, the current
timeline is 2061-2062.

And then there are some people who don't want a new sourcebook updating and
covering North America (You being the most vocal thus far)
Your 2 main points for why this shouldn't happen:
-People should make up the world on their own.
-People should just log into the net and ask old timers questions
about the
world.

So... I think we'll just leave it at that.

Augustus
Message no. 6
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:58:18 +1300 (NZDT)
On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, NeoJudas wrote:

> We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material. We didn't have quality
> adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon and/or
> Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here and
> now... barely usable as toilet paper). We didn't have flushed out volumes
> of information for Tir Tairngire.

Flushed out volumes? Barely usable as toilet paper? <grin> Sounds to me
like you're misusing those books...

BTW K, you may want to think about the fact that GMs new to SR with 3rd ed
can't always get OOP books, but also don't want to contradict SR canon by
accident (deliberately being another matter altogether...)

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 7
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:04:15 -0600
At 22:54 30/10/2000 -0800, Augustus wrote:

(I've already said this privately to one person, but I'll post it publicly
so I don't have to keep sending it privately..)

>2) This one is hard to say delicatly enough... but oh well... so I'll just
>say it outright... there is alot of really shitty politics going around the
>online shadowrun community.
> Obviously I can't go in to details since it would just get me kicked off
>this list, banned from #shadowrun and probably unable to do anything in the
>dumpshock forums... so I'll just leave this as enough and with a wink say
>"you all know what I mean"

Nobody has ever - EVER - been banned from ShadowRN for stating their
opinions. In the years since I've been Assistant Fearless Leader, *1*
person has been banned, and that was for repeated violations of netiquette
back in the summer of 1997.

There are problems with the online Shadowrun community, but I don't believe
that the Administration of ShadowRN adds to it - ShadowRN has always had
open and free-wheeling discussion about Shadowrun, and even though most of
us on the Admin team are now freelancers for FASA, I don't think this has
changed.

Please do not mistake the opinion of vocal posters for the opinion of the
list Administration (unless said vocal posters are the list Administration,
but please also recognize that we're all real people with opinions, not
just mindless robots here to run the server). I won't apolgize for Keith's
actions because it's simply not my place to do so, but I'm asking that you
don't look at him and see "ShadowRN", because he's but one member of a very
large list. The same goes for every other member. I'm not ShadowRN. Steve
Kenson isn't ShadowRN. Gurth isn't ShadowRN.

Just to be clear, the Administrative team for ShadowRN is:

Myself - Assistant Fearless Leader
Mark Imbriaco - Fearless Leader
David Buehrer, Gurth, Marc Renouf - GridSec
Dvixen - FAQ Maintainer

Consider yourself free to speak your opinions - within the bounds of the
law and good netiquette - here.

Thank you,
Adam Jury
--
< The Shadowrun Supplemental? ShadowFAQ? Full Count? >
< Latest news about them all: http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj/ >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 8
From: NightLife NightLife@********.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 03:26:13 -0500
>There are problems with the online Shadowrun community, but I don't
>believe that the Administration of ShadowRN adds to it - ShadowRN has
>always had open and free-wheeling discussion about Shadowrun, and even
>though most of us on the Admin team are now freelancers for FASA, I don't
>think this has changed.

This is where I have to point something out. If indeed you are employed in
anyway by Fasa it kind of like getting both sides of the muffin buttered.
Don't take this as a personal insult Adam but humans being human tend to
protect the hand that feeds them. Not yourself but others have and it needs
to stop.

>Please do not mistake the opinion of vocal posters for the opinion of the
>list Administration (unless said vocal posters are the list
>Administration, but please also recognize that we're all real people with
>opinions, not just mindless robots here to run the server). I won't
>apolgize for Keith's actions because it's simply not my place to do so,
>but I'm asking that you don't look at him and see "ShadowRN", because he's
>but one member of a very large list. The same goes for every other member.
>I'm not ShadowRN. Steve Kenson isn't ShadowRN. Gurth isn't ShadowRN.

But the connotation is there. Just as I've said with other things. If you
working for Fasa and maintaining this list then personal and professional
convergences are inevitable. This means that changes are in order. If
Granite were still around I'd give him the nod for an addition to the admin
team and right now I can't think of anybody else except for Tinner but I
don't think he'd be up to the position.
Message no. 9
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 02:10:36 -0600
At 03:26 31/10/2000 -0500, NightLife wrote:
>
>This is where I have to point something out. If indeed you are employed in
>anyway by Fasa it kind of like getting both sides of the muffin buttered.

I have never been employed by FASA - I have done one set of freelance work
for FASA (Which I believe is classified as a 'work for hire', but I don't
have a formal contract on me to check), for a sum of money that could be
equated to that of several weeks work at any McJob across the country. This
work has obviously not been released yet, but it's in Target: Matrix.

>Don't take this as a personal insult Adam but humans being human tend to
>protect the hand that feeds them. Not yourself but others have and it needs
>to stop.

I could feed myself just as well from a McJob as I will from what FASA owes
me, and I have no intentions of making writing or working in the game
business a full time career. If it came to that point, or if my
Administrating habits changed so it was obvious that I was nothing but a
cheerleader for FASA, then I would feel it appropriate to step down.

However, I feel it is important to restate that: this list is not
moderated. I do not see posts before they arrive to the list at large. I
have no way of "recalling" messages that I dislike. I do not step into
discussions unless they are Off Topic, inflammatory, or in violation of
netiquette. Admin messages from me are clearly tagged as such.

>But the connotation is there. Just as I've said with other things. If you
>working for Fasa and maintaining this list then personal and professional
>convergences are inevitable. This means that changes are in order. If
>Granite were still around I'd give him the nod for an addition to the admin
>team and right now I can't think of anybody else except for Tinner but I
>don't think he'd be up to the position.

As you've already said that I don't exhibit this problem, I see no reason
for you to ask me to step down, and I think that I'm well suited to make a
decision with respects that on my own.

Adam
--
< The Shadowrun Supplemental? ShadowFAQ? Full Count? >
< Latest news about them all: http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj/ >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:28:01 +0100
According to Augustus, on Tue, 31 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> 1) Why should players feel a need to come to the internet for help? Yes the
> net is here... yes its big and covers alot of stuff... its great for sharing
> ideas... but you shouldn't utterly feel compelled to log in to better enjoy
> your game.

Agreed, but OTOH I also agree with Keith's remark that, if you don't have
enough information, you make something up that works for you.

> And the net is slow, to a degree... if I come in here and ask a question
> about something from the old books... its a crap shoot if I get an answer...
> let alone a correct answer. And even if I get an answer, it might come in
> 2 or 3 days later (I started playing shadowrun in 1989, I got all the
> books... I still ask questions... and alot of them don't get answered in
> here at all)

Unfortunately, it's the way the list works these days :( It used to be that
you asked a question and fifteen different people gave you about ten
different answers, all of them more or less right. Now, it seems a lot of
people are losing interest in the list altogether...

> 2) This one is hard to say delicatly enough... but oh well... so I'll just
> say it outright... there is alot of really shitty politics going around the
> online shadowrun community.
> Obviously I can't go in to details since it would just get me kicked off
> this list, banned from #shadowrun and probably unable to do anything in the
> dumpshock forums... so I'll just leave this as enough and with a wink say
> "you all know what I mean"

You would not get kicked off the list. It's what people always think, but
this isn't a dictatorship where you're only allowed to say what the leaders
want you to.

I take it you are referring to the fact that many of the more prominent
listmembers write for FASA as freelancers these days, which at times causes
a bit of a split between those "in the know" and those who aren't.
Unfortunately, this is also how the list works these days, IMHO. Way back
when, doing anything at all for FASA was about the highest thing we on
this list aspired to, when it came to gaming anyway -- just look at
the line in Doom's ShadowManiacs theme song: "We want play-test-ing
contracts!" I don't know if it's true, but I certainly got the impression
FASA ignored us; then Mike Mulvihill took over as line developer and we
started seeing a change. Mike uses freelancers, which I don't think Tom
Dowd did (much) and apparently decided to tap this list as a reserve of
them. It's a logical choice, but it _has_ changed the list, and not entirely
for the better IMO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:44:30 +0100
According to NightLife, on Tue, 31 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> But the connotation is there. Just as I've said with other things. If you
> working for Fasa and maintaining this list then personal and professional
> convergences are inevitable. This means that changes are in order. If
> Granite were still around I'd give him the nod for an addition to the admin
> team and right now I can't think of anybody else except for Tinner but I
> don't think he'd be up to the position.

I don't think that would work too well. It would for a while, but -- as
far as I can see -- the reason why many of the more well-known listmembers
are working for FASA nowadays is _because_ they're the more well-known
listmembers. Changing the admins is probably a short-time solution at best,
if this is a real problem (of which I'm not convinced).

As much as I hate it, being the nostalgic that I am, the list isn't the
same as it was in what I'll now refer to as the Good Old Days -- say,
about five years ago. The membership has changed, the old timers' attitudes
have changed, FASA's stance toward the list has changed, and all that put
together have altered the list from one where I really enjoyed being to one
that -- to be honest -- I have ambivalent feelings about. It's not that I
hate being here (I haven't unsubscribed) but it's certainly not as much
fun as it was before we grew up... :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:04:18 -0800
Gurth wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > And the net is slow, to a degree... if I come in here and ask a question
> > about something from the old books... its a crap shoot if I get an answer...
> > let alone a correct answer. And even if I get an answer, it might come in
> > 2 or 3 days later (I started playing shadowrun in 1989, I got all the
> > books... I still ask questions... and alot of them don't get answered in
> > here at all)
>
> Unfortunately, it's the way the list works these days :( It used to be that
> you asked a question and fifteen different people gave you about ten
> different answers, all of them more or less right. Now, it seems a lot of
> people are losing interest in the list altogether...
>

I've been quiet lately, a fact which makes me wonder sometimes why I'm still on
this list, but I can directly address this remark. For me, I used to try to be the
"Helpy Helperton (tm)" who answered every question. Fine. That worked when I was
checking email 5-10 times a day. Now I check it twice, and it's probably too late
to answer the question, so I get lost in the clutter.
<SNIP>

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 13
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:50:42 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: NightLife <NightLife@********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)


>>So get a map or three. Hell, this is the Internet Age.

>You're telling thing fellow that to run his game he needs to have
>Internet access, in addition to that he needs a computer with a >printer or
to somehow remember every tidbit photographically.
Helpful hint, maps of most cities worldwide are availably from the
right stores. If you live in a city, a lot of book stores either stock the
maps or can order them. There are also specialty stores that are more likely
to stock them. Maps of London enhanced my games greatly way back when (I'm
the sole fan of the London sourcebook on this list). Otherwise, most
libraries have Internet access for quite cheap rates, they also have
printers. Tourist maps are a role player's friend.





>Jeze Louise. You have us. I've been around the block since 1st edition
too but >this is ridiculous. You don't need source material because the
veterans have >had to make it up. The veterans didn't have a source book and
got along just >fine without it. As for their release schedule. They go
ahead and push products >back because they know that every Fasacist will
rally to their defense and say >hey give them some more time they're working
hard and they're just human. >Sure deadlines get missed but as a paying
customer you should be allowed to >raise some hell without everybody and
their mother jumping on your back a >force feeding you a piece of their
mind. If you late to work expect to get >docked. But because of the general
opinion Fasa doesn't. I don't care if you're >Mike's best bud or something
like that. They're a company it about time they >started to act like one.
The sad thing is, missing deadlines is good company business. If consume
rs are told that the next product will be released in one year, they are
likely to go somewhere else with their money because a year is a long time
to wait, and that Deadlands book looks interesting. If you promise the book
will be out in 6 months, then the consumer is less likely to stray. Even if
you know full well that it is pretty unlikely that the book can be done that
quickly. So, if 4 months down the track you postpone the book by two months,
well 4 months isn't too much longer to wait. Then when it gets postponed
another two months later, well, 4 months isn't too much longer to wait, and
so on. It's cutting waiting time down into bite-size chunks so they're more
appetising. Not really defensible behavior, but you're free to vote with
your feet any time you like. This is an important thing to remember, Fasa
supplies merchandise, not an essential service.
As for relying on veterans, well this doesn't really work. Anyone can
stick any old thing on the net, and it isn't easy to use your discretion
unless you are blessed with a stable group that runs a regular campaign with
a single GM. Otherwise, each GM has a different ruling on each subject and
you end up with one big mess of a game. Much better to only accept canon,
and for that you need official sourcebook information.



>but in the
>end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and
>could keep
>my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM).


>That's great for you. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do all
this.
The best thing you can do for your games is to do this, even if you
don't do it well at first. Of course, once again, a stable campaign group is
a plus. I remember with a cringe how my lovingly crafted Greek D&D world had
purple worms and umber hulks introduced into it by another GM who just
didn't understand the importance of solely classical monsters. But then,
sourcebooks sometimes ruin your idea of things just as much. Bloody
cybertorso with hardened armour.




>K as somebody who has met you I can say I'm surprised. This fellow has
a >valid opinion and one that I happen to back whole heartedly. As some who
>watched this list develop into factions and what not. The Fasacist over
here, >the newbies over their, the friends of the Fasacists right next to
them, the >writers for SR one row of seats above, old timers under Gurth's
stairs etc........ >Now it a place where sides decide what get talked about,
who can or can't say >something in particular. It's become who buddy buddy
with Mike this month or >who's got their submission printed to Fasa who's
accorded more say and >lienency. I can remember when Spike would tear into
somebody without out >fear of retribution because he was friends with this
group over here and they >where on the DLOH Christmas card list. I can also
remember when things >where somewhat fair, before this elitist attitude
overtook the whole list and half >of those who used to be here left. It's a
sad thing. I also realize this will >probably get me banned but I don't care
anymore.
I've been on this list about 9 months now, and I have to say I'm not
aware of any factions as such. Possibly because I don't participate in any
other simmilar lists. When I first started, there were a few argumentative
souls who'd clog the list with endless repetitions of their opinions, but
they seem to have left or settled down. Now it seems peaceful and friendly
here, and a few times when newbies have brought up subjects that have
already been covered, people happily go over the subject instead of an old
guard saying "Check the archives, dickhead" like I half expect. I might be
blind to a glaring problem, but I really think you have overreacted.
Message no. 14
From: Mark C Farrington alareth@*********.net
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:21:51 -0500
>
> As much as I hate it, being the nostalgic that I am, the list isn't the
> same as it was in what I'll now refer to as the Good Old Days -- say,
> about five years ago. The membership has changed, the old timers'
> attitudes
> have changed, FASA's stance toward the list has changed, and all that put
> together have altered the list from one where I really enjoyed
> being to one
> that -- to be honest -- I have ambivalent feelings about. It's not that I
> hate being here (I haven't unsubscribed) but it's certainly not as much
> fun as it was before we grew up... :(

I'm what might be considered a semi-oldtimer on this list. Barring a
lack of net access for about a year I have had a continuos subscription
since late 95 or early 96.

I have to agree with Gurth about how this list has changed. Change is
unavoidable. People come and they go. I saw this change long ago, some may
vaguely remeber my lost and found message looking for the list and that was
about two years ago.

Why do I read this list? Because I enjoy the overall community aspect.
I rarely get to play Shadowrun anymore so many of the rules questions I tend
to gloss over. But I enjoy seeing the silly and OT stuff that pops up here.
Things like the coming of the FCotSB and the gradual fall of the resistance.
Or the accursed Woodchuck threads. Who has the 1000 Year Old Carp anyway?

Regardless of the reasons anyone joined this list it is a community and
it will remain as such. People communicate here and that is how communties
form. You don't have to agree with others here.

The list has grown way too serious these days. We used to have fun
here. Just like the game that is responsible for this list being here. At
least that's why I play rpg's, to have fun.

As for K's post on how the early 1st ed players were "deprived" of
source material, that's true of all games. I've gone through it with many
systems, including that relatively new AD&D game when I started this dark
path of gaming. But I also feel that there is a point to be made about
FASA's release schedule. WotC was able to get the core books for 3rd ed out
in three months (and in hardback too). Just how long did it take for FASA
to release the first 3 books for SR 3rd ed? I would have rather seen FASA
delay the release of 3rd ed by about a year than have the hideously slow
release schedule.

I'm done rambling for now, I'll babble some more when I think of
something.

Alareth:
Thrice incubated Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
Investigator, Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs
Possesor of the infamous #shadowrun Clone-O-Matic(tm)
Message no. 15
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:30:15 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark C Farrington" <alareth@*********.net>

> Why do I read this list? Because I enjoy the overall community
aspect.
> I rarely get to play Shadowrun anymore so many of the rules questions I
tend
> to gloss over. But I enjoy seeing the silly and OT stuff that pops up
here.
> Things like the coming of the FCotSB and the gradual fall of the
resistance.
> Or the accursed Woodchuck threads. Who has the 1000 Year Old Carp anyway?

::THWAP::

I do, right now.
Message no. 16
From: Mark C Farrington alareth@*********.net
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:10:43 -0500
> > Or the accursed Woodchuck threads. Who has the 1000 Year Old
> Carp anyway?
>
> ::THWAP::
>
> I do, right now.
>

Hey! That was just downright mean :Þ Thwap K. He started all this today
:) (the previous statment about K made in jest so laugh damn you)

Alareth
Message no. 17
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:04:12 EST
In a message dated 10/31/00 5:12:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> It's not that I
> hate being here (I haven't unsubscribed) but it's certainly not as much
> fun as it was before we grew up... :(

Ain't everything? I go to a school these days that has a daycare center on
the grounds, actively used by child care classes in coursework. I look
outside my window in English class, and I see a veritable horde of kids
there, playing cops and robbers. Gurth, as I realized today...so long as we
have memories, grownup life (or, close to it) will never be as fun as being a
kid.:-) However, a great strategy, that's also mentally healing and
enormously helpful to everyone....Go, volunteer to work with little kids or
something...or just go to your local park and watch the little kids. It's a
Good Thing.:-)

John
Message no. 18
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:11:05 +0000
On Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 04:21:51PM -0500, Mark C Farrington wrote:
>
> The list has grown way too serious these days. We used to have fun
> here. Just like the game that is responsible for this list being here. At
> least that's why I play rpg's, to have fun.

I love that this is the only list where we can't say "We *all* play
this game for fun!" :)

gordon
Message no. 19
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:41:55 -0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simon and Fiona [mailto:sfuller@******.com.au]
>
> I've been on this list about 9 months now, and I have to
> say I'm not
> aware of any factions as such. Possibly because I don't
> participate in any
> other similar lists. When I first started, there were a few
> argumentative
> souls who'd clog the list with endless repetitions of their
> opinions, but
> they seem to have left or settled down. Now it seems peaceful
> and friendly
> here, and a few times when newbies have brought up subjects that have
> already been covered, people happily go over the subject
> instead of an old
> guard saying "Check the archives, dickhead" like I half
> expect. I might be
> blind to a glaring problem, but I really think you have overreacted.

I've only been here a couple of months, but I've had a similar
experience to you. Most of the posts I've seen are on-topic and
informative. Obviously, the people getting heated up about this have
been building up a head of steam over several months (possibly years)
and have latched on to a few statements that have given them an
opportunity to vent their spleen.

What are the issues here?

1. Should FASA concentrate it's efforts into releasing rules or
background?

Personally, I'd rather have mainly rules with a little bit of
background. Yes, a collated and updated guide to North America would be
nice, but I'm quite capable of making stuff up. And a NA book won't help
me set a run in Hong Kong, or Johannesburg, or Rio de Janeiro, or Rome
etc. Rules on how to conduct runs (combat, decking, Magic, rigging,
scenario design etc) are useful in *any* campaign setting.

2. Should people who have written stuff for FASA be involved in running
the List?

I don't see the problem. If I want to talk about running
Shadowrun in a d20 setting, or say that a given sourcebook was obviously
written by someone who hasn't even seen the place on a map, or that the
matrix rules suck and this is how I do it, does it matter that the guy's
(and gal's) making sure the server is up and working have connections to
FASA?

3. Should writers of forthcoming releases mention them in advance?

I don't have a problem with it, after all, what does it really
change?. If it covers something that isn't directly relevant to me, such
as Target:Wastelands if we never do runs to deserts or toxic sites etc,
then either I will ignore it or wait until it comes out to see if it
might be useful. If I *have* to set a run in such a place before the
sourcebook is released then I'll *make it up*. It's not as if no-one has
ever set a run to an arctic weather station to retrieve data from a
downed satellite because the appropriate sourcebook has been released.
Instead, I might read or watch Ice Station Zebra for inspiration, of go
to the library, or watch Discovery channel, or National Geographic etc.

If it's a rules book, then I'll try to ensure that the way I
play Shadowrun is more in keeping with any hints the writer has given,
but when it comes down it *any* rules changes or additions are bound to
mean changes in the way things are done, so just play with your existing
rules until the new ones come out. It is somewhat immature to say "No
fair! I wanna play it now. I've got the cash, FASA is honour bound to
let me have it now. Now! Now, now, now! How can I be expected to play a
game that I *know* has more products to be released for it in the
future..."

4. Are the List 'Veterans' elitist?

Only in the sense that they have know each other for years and
have a natural clique. I certainly haven't found them to be unhelpful to
newbies. And of course they know more about Shadowrun if they've been
playing it longer. I played my first game of Shadowrun *ever* about 4
months ago, enjoyed it immensely, bought all the 3E rules and New
Seattle (and a few other bits on eBay. Oh, my aching wallet!), and think
I have a fair grasp on 3E. But I still don't have the ingrained
understanding that only comes from constant use over a sustained period
of time. I may take rules at face value, but the veterans can explain
that this rule is flawed, or how it has developed over time etc, because
they have the experience of using the rules and of earlier incarnations
of them.

5. FASA should shovel out books as fast as it can print them, because I
want to buy them.

Nonsense. FASA is a business, not a charity. Would endless reams
of errata-ridden badly edited supplements be preferable to carefully
written and edited books, released according to a schedule determined by
business operation considerations rather than by a 'the customer is
always right, even if they are bankrupting me' mindset.

Well, I've probably stirred the pot a bit with that lot, so I'll leave
it there for now...

Matt
Message no. 20
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:33:45 -0500
On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:41:55 -0000 Matt Bond <MBOND@******.demon.co.uk>
writes:
> I've only been here a couple of months, but I've had a similar
> experience to you. Most of the posts I've seen are on-topic and
> informative. Obviously, the people getting heated up about this have
> been building up a head of steam over several months (possibly
> years)
> and have latched on to a few statements that have given them an
> opportunity to vent their spleen.
>

For myself, it's stuff that has been around for a while, but that I don't
let bother me so much. (I don't get "heated" about something I read on
line) but at the same time, I know of some that have left because of some
of these reasons, so I think the discussion is important to prevent
people from leaving for something that can possibly be fixed.


> 2. Should people who have written stuff for FASA be involved in
> running
> the List?
>
> I don't see the problem.

I snipped the explanation, because I agree with you. As (urgh, was it
Adam that said it?) was said before, the list admin/gridsec doesn't
"approve" emails before they're sent. They read stuff the same time we do
(if not later, depending on when they heck mail)

> 3. Should writers of forthcoming releases mention them in advance?
>
> I don't have a problem with it, after all, what does it
> really
> change?

1) announcing when something will come out, and then it doesn't come out
for another year is a drag :-)
2) it's the tone that is used that is important. If you say "I know
Rigger3 is coming out, but until then, I was wondering what about Rule X"
and the reply is "oh, you're going to be surprised" or "if I could
comment here..." it's not helpful, and it is irritating.
3) this includes playtesters too. I enjoy having writers discuss their
work, it's fun. I'd actually rather have that information when I have the
finished book in front of me though :-) If it's helpful information ahead
of time, that's grand, but...

>
> 4. Are the List 'Veterans' elitist?
>
> Only in the sense that they have know each other for years
> and
> have a natural clique. I certainly haven't found them to be
> unhelpful to
> newbies.

OTOH, you've also got to remember that anyone that has been playing
forever also has changed their campaign. There are campaigns out there
that are very different from the game as presented. This is of course
true for anything, but you have to keep in mind that the information
presented by members of the "clique" is treated as "more right" than
others. There are quite a few rules experts here, but it's not always
obvious.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 21
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 19:39:12 +1000
At 03:26 AM 31/10/00 -0500, NightLife wrote:
>
>>There are problems with the online Shadowrun community, but I don't
>>believe that the Administration of ShadowRN adds to it - ShadowRN has
>>always had open and free-wheeling discussion about Shadowrun, and even
>>though most of us on the Admin team are now freelancers for FASA, I don't
>>think this has changed.
>
>This is where I have to point something out. If indeed you are employed in
>anyway by Fasa it kind of like getting both sides of the muffin buttered.

None of the list members are 'employed' by FASA, with the exception of Rob
Boyle (if he's still on this list). A few of us have had, and/or will have,
freelance contracts to write specific material for FASA.

A freelance contract does not an employee make. If you think it does, I
invite you to watch me try and get health insurance and holiday pay out of
FASA.

Additionally (and I apologise in advance for the cranky tone): I resent
your implication that the freelance writers, singularly and collectively,
have lost their capacity for rational analysis and objective criticism
merely because of an employment situation. Sure, I'm biased. Sure, Adam's
biased. Sure, just about any mortal human is biased. Unless you're Mr.
Spock, I'm sure you have just as many biases as I do. But only myyyyy
comments are biased when it comes to Shadowrun; yours are doubtless 100%
objective.

Yeah, whatever. Message: Human beings are biased, live with it.

If I'm being brutally honest, I have been a whole lot less than happy with
any number of recent Shadowrun books. Do I noise about it? Not in public,
no. Whether through a sense of loyalty (gasp! BIAS! Execute me now for
being biased!) or through basic professionalism, I prefer not to bitch in
public about what I don't like. But neither do I fawn and grovel on FASA's
behalf and try to make them look good to other people. I merely choose not
to speak about it at all.

But I am SICK TO DEATH of being repeatedly slagged off for crimes I did not
commit. I am sick to death of people trying to delineate divisions in this
list where none need to exist. I am sick of being tagged as a "FASA
apologist" merely because my name has appeared in the credits of a few
Shadowrun books. I am exceedingly tired of people assuming that my beliefs
and policies are the same as every other person who happens to either a)
run relatively well-known online Shadowrun resources, b) be an op on
#Shadowrun, or c) write for FASA.

Well, my apologies. That was going to be a well-reasoned critical analysis;
instead, it turned into a kvetch. I'm going to post it regardless, though,
because I still want to make my ultimate point: PLEASE stop assuming that
everyone who fits a certain criterion is going to behave the same way when
it comes to Shadowrun. I am exceedingly sick and tired of being labelled
and criticised for viewpoints I don't espouse, and I would imagine many
others are in my shoes as well.

--

Restating this point to address the initial issue in a PS I just thought
of: There may or may not be elitism on this list and in the other online
communities. It may be real, it may be perceived.

However, please do not assume that every "oldtimer" (ugh, a label) is
elitist and unwelcoming, *even if* some *are*. Please. I speak for myself
here, but I'm sure I speak for many of the other "oldtimers" as well.

--

And another PS. This email is probably somewhat after the fact, if the
argument has died down by now (this is the first time I've checked email in
2 and a half days), but this is something I've been feeling strongly about
for quite a while, so I wanted to comment regardless.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 22
From: Old Man Bethyaga acuteparanoia@*******.com
Subject: Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:14:43 CST
>From: NightLife <NightLife@********.com>
>Now it a place where sides decide what get talked about,
>who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who buddy buddy
>with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to Fasa who's
>accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike would tear into
>somebody without out fear of retribution because he was friends with this
>group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas card list. I can also
>remember when things where somewhat fair, before this elitist attitude
>overtook the whole list and half of those who used to be here left. It's a
>sad thing. I also realize this will probably get me banned but I don't care
>anymore.


Amen, Nightlife.

I come here for INTELLIGENT discussion of SR. I visit DRF for OPEN talk on
any SR topic. I just can't seem to find both in one place, cuz the people
at Bulldrek just don't like to talk about SR anymore.

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Thwap!