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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 12:15:01 2001
--- Wordman <wordman@*******.com> wrote:

> This is one of the many things that irritated me about the Matrix
rules. They give rules for absolutely everything except character
creation. What to do if you character wants to start the game with a
home built deck?

Yep, that's the crux of it. You can buy programs but not a custom
deck (I'm amazed they didn't pick this up even after three editions).
I'm just going to use the Custom Cyberdeck purchasing rules and pay
more if I have to. Thanks for your suggestion, though.

Lunatec - I'm definitely looking for a custom deck rather than a
shelf one, and I also want to familiarize myself with the rules
starting from the ground up. And I intend this decker to be spottily
competent in a firefight... but I'm not going the Decker/Sammie
route. But thanks for your answer :)

Sven, Meatnog, Elindor, Gurth - Thanks very much for your
recommendations on utilities. Extremely helpful stuff... this decker
may be able to survive a red host yet...

I do, however, have other questions. Simple ones. When building
the deck I've run into a couple funny things... is there any reason
not to take Hardening 8 if my MPCP's 8? None of the stock decks have
it that high, but there doesn't seem to be a limit apart from the
MPCP. Same goes for I/O speed.. why not just max it out to 800? And
as for active and storage memory... I'm not sure what to go with
there... does 1,500Mp and 2,000Mp respectively sound all right?
Should I do up my utilities before I decide this so I can figure out
how much I want to carry?

-Boondocker

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 13:15:00 2001
According to Scott W, on Sat, 17 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Yep, that's the crux of it. You can buy programs but not a custom
> deck (I'm amazed they didn't pick this up even after three editions).
> I'm just going to use the Custom Cyberdeck purchasing rules and pay
> more if I have to. Thanks for your suggestion, though.

VR 2.0 has price formulas for off-the-shelf cyberdecks, which are
basically the prices you'd pay for a custom-made deck (as in: you asking a
deckmeister to build a deck to your specifications); these are not as
difficult as they appear. Matrix makes it even simpler, because there
the cost is calculated simply by multiplying the square of the MPCP rating
by a factor based on the kind of item.

> Sven, Meatnog, Elindor, Gurth - Thanks very much for your
> recommendations on utilities.

Not a problem :)

> I do, however, have other questions. Simple ones. When building
> the deck I've run into a couple funny things... is there any reason
> not to take Hardening 8 if my MPCP's 8? None of the stock decks have
> it that high, but there doesn't seem to be a limit apart from the
> MPCP. Same goes for I/O speed.. why not just max it out to 800?

The main reason for _not_ doing these things is money and time spent on
constructing or buying them. Other than that, I don't see why anyone would
get a rating lower than the maximum, no.

> And as for active and storage memory... I'm not sure what to go with
> there... does 1,500Mp and 2,000Mp respectively sound all right?
> Should I do up my utilities before I decide this so I can figure out
> how much I want to carry?

That's a good idea, as it'll give you a much clearer picture of how much
memory you'll actually need. Just be sure to add some extra memory, say
about 25 to 50%, to cope with future expansion of your software list as
well as downloaded paydata. BTW, it's a good idea to simply put in equal
amounts of active and storage memory -- for one thing, this will allow you
to load all your utilities into active memory and not bother about swapping
them out for others when you need to do something you hadn't counted on :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 15:05:01 2001
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> Matrix makes it even simpler, because there the cost is calculated
simply by multiplying the square of the MPCP rating by a factor based
on the kind of item.

Yeah, I'm using that to make a deck. Expensive proposition... good
thing the GM allowed the 'Mo' Money' option :)

> The main reason for _not_ doing these things is money and time
spent on constructing or buying them. Other than that, I don't see
why anyone would get a rating lower than the maximum, no.

The only thing I can see that would make maxing my I/O out a bad
idea is the fact that you're limited to the lower of either your
deck's I/O spd or the interface's. The max interface speed I found
was 500... so there's really no sense in jumping my deck to 800, is
there?

> That's a good idea, as it'll give you a much clearer picture of how
much memory you'll actually need. Just be sure to add some extra
memory, say about 25 to 50%, to cope with future expansion of your
software list as well as downloaded paydata.

Can a decker download paydata directly into offline storage (that's
hooked to his/her deck)?

> BTW, it's a good idea to simply put in equal amounts of active and
storage memory -- for one thing, this will allow you to load all your
utilities into active memory and not bother about swapping them out
for others when you need to do something you hadn't counted on :)

Good idea, thanks.

Now I'm trying to buy programs, and I've run into trouble... it's
just my comprehension that's the problem, though. I know how to
figure the price for a plain vanilla prog, but when you tack on
options do you add that design modifier to the rating or the
multiplier? And if you get an option that reduces the Mp of a
program, do you pay the price as if it weren't smaller? Otherwise
you're paying less for more, if you get me. I wonder if people could
give me some examples of figuring out the cost of a program with options.

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven De Herdt)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 17:15:06 2001
Scott W wrote:

> The only thing I can see that would make maxing my I/O out a bad
> idea is the fact that you're limited to the lower of either your
> deck's I/O spd or the interface's. The max interface speed I found
> was 500... so there's really no sense in jumping my deck to 800, is
> there?

(IIRC) It would only serve some purpose if you are connecting from a console
on to the host, which would give you unlimited bandwidth.

> Can a decker download paydata directly into offline storage (that's
> hooked to his/her deck)?

Yes, you can and the data moves at the decks I/O speed.

> Now I'm trying to buy programs, and I've run into trouble... it's
> just my comprehension that's the problem, though. I know how to
> figure the price for a plain vanilla prog, but when you tack on
> options do you add that design modifier to the rating or the
> multiplier? And if you get an option that reduces the Mp of a
> program, do you pay the price as if it weren't smaller? Otherwise
> you're paying less for more, if you get me. I wonder if people could
> give me some examples of figuring out the cost of a program
> with options.

When using options programs have two separate sizes: the actual size (space
the program occupies on a computer) and design size (used to determine
programming base time).
The price of a program depends on its base rating and design size.

Fi. an attack-6M program has a base rating of 6 and design size of 108Mp,
thus costs 108x200!800 nuyen and the attack-6M program with the stealth-4
option has an effective rating of 10 and design size of 300Mp, thus it costs
60000 nuyen.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven De Herdt)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 17:20:01 2001
Scott W wrote:

> I do, however, have other questions. Simple ones. When building
> the deck I've run into a couple funny things... is there any reason
> not to take Hardening 8 if my MPCP's 8? None of the stock decks have
> it that high, but there doesn't seem to be a limit apart from the
> MPCP.

Keep in mind that hardening is quite expensive and only works against gray
and black IC!

It might be useful to spend some of that hardening on other stuff for your
deck, because otherwise you won't even be able to get as for as to the gray
and black IC trigger steps.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 17:25:02 2001
> Now I'm trying to buy programs, and I've run into trouble... it's
>just my comprehension that's the problem, though. I know how to
>figure the price for a plain vanilla prog, but when you tack on
>options do you add that design modifier to the rating or the
>multiplier? And if you get an option that reduces the Mp of a
>program, do you pay the price as if it weren't smaller? Otherwise
>you're paying less for more, if you get me. I wonder if people could
>give me some examples of figuring out the cost of a program with options.

You pay for the MP that would be in the SOURCE code, the stuff you would
have to program if creating it from scratch, at the actual rating of the
program.

For example, Attack M has a multiplier of 3. Attack M 6 would be 6x6x3 MP,
at 100¥ per MP. Targeting has a design modifier of +2, so it would take it
up to 8x8x3 MP, and still be 100¥ per MP. Optimization halves the actual
size, but doubles the design size, so if you wanted that optimized, you
would pay for 8x8x3x2 MP at 100 ¥ per MP. The optimized version would cost
twice as much, but take up half the active memory.

-Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 18:10:01 2001
> I do, however, have other questions. Simple ones.
When building the deck I've run into a couple funny
things... is there any reason not to take Hardening 8
if my MPCP's 8? None of the stock decks have it that
high, but there doesn't seem to be a limit apart from
the MPCP. Same goes for I/O speed.. why not just max
it out to 800? And as for active and storage
memory... I'm not sure what to go with there... does
1,500Mp and 2,000Mp respectively sound all right?
Should I do up my utilities before I decide this so I
can figure out how much I want to carry?
> -Boondocker

I can't address the first two - as I haven't got The
Matrix, I don't know of any reason why you shouldn't
do either of those. However, for the third - well,
there's a compelling reason to have significantly more
storage memory. If it's the same as in VR2, it's quite
a bit cheaper to get storage memory. Not only that,
but as well as having room to store anything you
download, you'll want it to hold copies of ALL your
utilities, in case they get zapped by Tar ice, or if
you need to do some swapping of utilities. Anyway,
there's no reason (except for cash) not to get as much
storage memory as you can. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 18:15:00 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Can a decker download paydata directly into
offline storage (that's hooked to his/her deck)?

Yup. At least, IIRC. :)

> > BTW, it's a good idea to simply put in equal
amounts of active and storage memory -- for one thing,
this will allow you to load all your utilities into
active memory and not bother about swapping them out
for others when you need to do something you hadn't
counted on :)
>
> Good idea, thanks.

No, it's NOT a good idea. It's a good idea to have
enough ACTIVE memory to hold all your utilities, so
you don't have to do any swapping under normal
circumstances, but if you go in without backups of
your utilities in your storage memory, you're setting
yourself up for a fall. And if you have enough active
memory to store all your utilities and the same amount
of storage memory, either you're going in without any
backups, or you won't be able to download anything.

BAD idea.

> Now I'm trying to buy programs, and I've run into
trouble... it's just my comprehension that's the
problem, though. I know how to figure the price for a
plain vanilla prog, but when you tack on options do
you add that design modifier to the rating or the
multiplier? And if you get an option that reduces the
Mp of a program, do you pay the price as if it weren't
smaller? Otherwise you're paying less for more, if
you get me. I wonder if people could give me some
examples of figuring out the cost of a program with
options.

Bearing in mind that this is VR2 knowledge, unless it
says SPECIFICALLY that the modifier is to applied to
the multiplier, it applies to the rating. Also, when
you got an option that reduced actual program size, it
also INCREASED the DESIGN size - and the design size
is what you calculate the cost from. Now, I don't know
if this still applies to SR3, but that's how it was
done in VR2 (and it's also how they did things for the
skillsoft options in CC, so I'd expect you to find
something like that in The Matrix).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sat Mar 17 20:20:01 2001
> Yep, that's the crux of it. You can buy programs but not a custom
>deck (I'm amazed they didn't pick this up even after three editions).
> I'm just going to use the Custom Cyberdeck purchasing rules and pay
>more if I have to. Thanks for your suggestion, though.

I think that's the basic assumption- if you want to start with a custom
deck, you have to PAY for the custom deck. Makes sense, neh? They don;t
have special rules for riggers and custom(ized) vehicles either, right- you
just pay the price to buy the stuff. It never seemed an issue that needed
detailing to me...

-Mongoose

> I do, however, have other questions. Simple ones. When building
>the deck I've run into a couple funny things... is there any reason
>not to take Hardening 8 if my MPCP's 8?

Because hardening costs a LOT, and is much much cheaper at rating 6 than 7
or 8? There's not that many things you need hardening for, and othr things
more worth spending the money on.

>Should I do up my utilities before I decide this so I can figure out
>how much I want to carry?

Yes. I'd just take them ALL at rating 3, then bump up the ones you figgure
to use a lot. That will vary on your deckers goals, but with all of them at
rating 3, you can at least take a shot at any task, and can code up the
rating to 5 or 6 a bit quicker than starting from scratch.

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sun Mar 18 05:40:01 2001
According to Scott W, on Sat, 17 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Can a decker download paydata directly into offline storage (that's
> hooked to his/her deck)?

I don't think so, but then, the way in which offline storage _can_ be used
has never been well defined anyway :) If you can access offline storage to
copy things from storage memory into it or vice-versa (and it makes very
little sense that you couldn't :) then I don't see why can't you do so
during a run...

Maybe this is hidden in Matrix somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

> Now I'm trying to buy programs, and I've run into trouble... it's
> just my comprehension that's the problem, though. I know how to
> figure the price for a plain vanilla prog, but when you tack on
> options do you add that design modifier to the rating or the
> multiplier?

To the rating. A rating 4 program with a x2 multiplier normally takes up
4^2 x 2 = 32 Mp. With an option that gives a +1 modifier, it becomes
(4+1)^2 x 2 = 50 Mp.

> And if you get an option that reduces the Mp of a
> program, do you pay the price as if it weren't smaller?

The cost is based on the _design_ size, not the actual size. For a rating
4 utility with x2 multiplier, design size is normally 32 Mp. With
Optimization option, for example, the actual size becomes 16 Mp, but the
design size becomes 64 Mp. You pay for a 64 Mp utility, even though you
only get a 16 Mp one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sun Mar 18 05:40:07 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Sun, 18 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> No, it's NOT a good idea. It's a good idea to have
> enough ACTIVE memory to hold all your utilities

That is what I was saying: equal amounts of active and storage memory.
Since your storage memory must be large enough to hold all the utilities
you want to take with you on the run, it follows that active memory will be
large enough for that as well. So you load all your utilities in both, and
don't have to worry about swapping them unless one gets crashed for some
reason.

> BAD idea.

I beg to differ...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven De Herdt)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sun Mar 18 11:00:01 2001
Gurth wrote:
>
> Maybe this is hidden in Matrix somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

I found something about off-line storage in SR3 on p.216 in the description
of the "download data" utility.

Didn't find any additional rules though about bandwidth restrictions,
connection speed,...

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sun Mar 18 11:25:01 2001
>> No, it's NOT a good idea. It's a good idea to have enough ACTIVE
memory to hold all your utilities

> That is what I was saying: equal amounts of active and storage
memory. Since your storage memory must be large enough to hold all
the utilities you want to take with you on the run, it follows that
active memory will be large enough for that as well. So you load all
your utilities in both, and don't have to worry about swapping them
unless one gets crashed for some reason.

I think Doc' was saying not to only have as much storage memory as
you have active memory (this assuming you have exactly enough active
mem to hold all your progs... then you wouldn't have enough storage
for anything BUT your progs). Gurth is saying have as much active
memory as you do storage memory... to illustrate:

The total program size I have is 1,300 Mp. I should have 2,000 Mp
storage so I can hold all the progs plus paydata. Gurth says why not
get 2,000 Mp active as well so I never have to worry about having to
shuffle programs (ack, must delete Attack D 6 so I can load Sleaze
7!). Rand's assuming that I'd only get 1,300 Mp storage since that's
all the active I really need... am I right, guys?

-Boondocker

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Sun Mar 18 18:55:06 2001
>>>That is what I was saying: equal amounts of active and storage memory.
Since your storage memory must be large enough to hold all the utilities
you want to take with you on the run, it follows that active memory will be
large enough for that as well. So you load all your utilities in both, and
don't have to worry about swapping them unless one gets crashed for some
reason.

Having extra active memory won't hurt, but loading all you utilities at once
may cause bandwidth problems, making it easy to trace you- IF you are using
those rules.

-Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 06:30:00 2001
According to Sven De Herdt, on Sun, 18 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> I found something about off-line storage in SR3 on p.216 in the description
> of the "download data" utility.
>
> Didn't find any additional rules though about bandwidth restrictions,
> connection speed,...

Exactly. Using I/O speed makes sense, since that gives you some kind of
disadvantage over using offline storage rather than storage memory, but on
the whole this is one of the things about cyberdecks that's the least clear
in any book...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 06:30:04 2001
According to Scott W, on Sun, 18 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> The total program size I have is 1,300 Mp. I should have 2,000 Mp
> storage so I can hold all the progs plus paydata. Gurth says why not
> get 2,000 Mp active as well so I never have to worry about having to
> shuffle programs (ack, must delete Attack D 6 so I can load Sleaze
> 7!). Rand's assuming that I'd only get 1,300 Mp storage since that's
> all the active I really need... am I right, guys?

You're right on what I was saying, certainly. I ca^H^Hwon't speak for
Doc', though :)

It wouldn't make sense to only get as much storage memory as necessary for
the utilities you're taking, for the obvious reasons of downloading paydata
and the future expansion of your software library; that's why I recommended
adding 25% to 50% to the minimum necessary. And then why not go for the
same amount of active memory as well?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 06:30:12 2001
According to Sebastian Wiers, on Sun, 18 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Having extra active memory won't hurt, but loading all you utilities at once
> may cause bandwidth problems, making it easy to trace you- IF you are using
> those rules.

Certainly, but it still won't hurt to have enough active memory to actually
put all your utilities in it, for those cases where you don't have to worry
about bandwidth.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 07:20:01 2001
> > No, it's NOT a good idea. It's a good idea to have
enough ACTIVE memory to hold all your utilities
>
> That is what I was saying: equal amounts of active
and storage memory. Since your storage memory must be
large enough to hold all the utilities you want to
take with you on the run, it follows that active
memory will be large enough for that as well. So you
load all your utilities in both, and don't have to
worry about swapping them unless one gets crashed for
some reason.
>
> > BAD idea.
>
> I beg to differ...
> Gurth@******.nl -

*Doc' slaps his forehead...*

Okay, Gurth. You've got enough active memory to store
all your utilities. Right? You've got an equal amount
of storage memory to store backup copies of your
utilities. Is that what you're saying? If so...

Then WHERE THE HELL are you going to store the paydata
you download????

:)

Now if I'm misunderstanding you, I apologise, but what
I've said above is how your comment read to me. And if
that's what you meant, then yes, it IS a bad idea. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 07:30:01 2001
> I think Doc' was saying not to only have as much
storage memory as you have active memory (this
assuming you have exactly enough active mem to hold
all your progs... then you wouldn't have enough
storage for anything BUT your progs). Gurth is saying
have as much active memory as you do storage memory...
to illustrate:
>
> The total program size I have is 1,300 Mp. I should
have 2,000 Mp storage so I can hold all the progs plus
paydata. Gurth says why not get 2,000 Mp active as
well so I never have to worry about having to shuffle
programs (ack, must delete Attack D 6 so I can load
Sleaze 7!). Rand's assuming that I'd only get 1,300
Mp storage since that's all the active I really
need... am I right, guys?
> -Boondocker

I'm not sure if that's what Gurth's saying, but yeah,
that's what I'm saying. Active memory is expensive as
far as memory goes and you only ever need enough to
hold all your utilities. You can always upgrade it
later, so I wouldn't recommend blowing money on it to
increase it ABOVE what's required for your utilities,
unless you really have money to burn. On the other
hand, your storage memory needs to EXCEED the total Mp
of all your utilities - I'd say by at least 1000Mp,
more if you can manage it. Paydata can get mighty hefty.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 09:30:01 2001
> I'm not sure if that's what Gurth's saying, but yeah, that's what
I'm saying.

Well great, everyone knows exactly what they're saying. What I'M
saying is that you're both right in your reasoning no matter how
wrong in your assumptions. Geez, you dingbats (Doc,' really :)

> On the other hand, your storage memory needs to EXCEED the total Mp
of all your utilities - I'd say by at least 1000Mp, more if you can
manage it. Paydata can get mighty hefty.

Oops. I really sense this decker's going to be a learning
experience. I've already nailed down a couple of "Room For
Improvement" things.

Ah, what the hell. We'll see how it goes.

-Boondocker

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 09:35:01 2001
> Exactly. Using I/O speed makes sense, since that gives you some
kind of disadvantage over using offline storage rather than storage
memory, but on the whole this is one of the things about cyberdecks
that's the least clear in any book...

Is off-line storage able to be wiped by Tar IC?

-Boondocker

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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 09:45:01 2001
> Is off-line storage able to be wiped by Tar IC?
>
> -Boondocker

No, that is the whole point of Offline.

I'll go one step further, I'm 99% sure that you can't download directly into
Offline storage either.

My understanding of the storage types and their modern day equivalents:

Online == Harddrive
Active == RAM
Offline == Burned CDs


-Nog
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 13:50:01 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Mon, 19 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Okay, Gurth. You've got enough active memory to store
> all your utilities. Right? You've got an equal amount
> of storage memory to store backup copies of your
> utilities. Is that what you're saying? If so...
>
> Then WHERE THE HELL are you going to store the paydata
> you download????

You store it in the extra memory, of course. First you figure out how much
space your utilities will take up. Say, 1000 Mp. Then you add some more
memory to account for paydata -- call it 1500 Mp in all. Add that amount of
storage memory. Then, for ease, you also add 1500 Mp of active memory
because who knows, in future you might add a few more utilities which you'd
also want to be able to load into active memory.

It's not difficult, really :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Mon Mar 19 18:55:09 2001
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:45:03 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>According to Rand Ratinac, on Mon, 19 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...
>
>> Okay, Gurth. You've got enough active memory to store
>> all your utilities. Right? You've got an equal amount
>> of storage memory to store backup copies of your
>> utilities. Is that what you're saying? If so...
>>
>> Then WHERE THE HELL are you going to store the paydata
>> you download????
>
>You store it in the extra memory, of course. First you figure out how much
>space your utilities will take up. Say, 1000 Mp. Then you add some more
>memory to account for paydata -- call it 1500 Mp in all. Add that amount of
>storage memory. Then, for ease, you also add 1500 Mp of active memory
>because who knows, in future you might add a few more utilities which you'd
>also want to be able to load into active memory.
>
>It's not difficult, really :)

Not difficult, but I must ask, why? What's the point of adding extra
Active memory instead of extra Storage memory? And isn't Active memory
more expensive anyway?
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Tue Mar 20 07:30:01 2001
> > Okay, Gurth. You've got enough active memory to
store all your utilities. Right? You've got an equal
amount of storage memory to store backup copies of
your utilities. Is that what you're saying? If so...
> >
> > Then WHERE THE HELL are you going to store the
paydata you download????
>
> You store it in the extra memory, of course. First
you figure out how much space your utilities will take
up. Say, 1000 Mp. Then you add some more memory to
account for paydata -- call it 1500 Mp in all. Add
that amount of storage memory. Then, for ease, you
also add 1500 Mp of active memory because who knows,
in future you might add a few more utilities which
you'd also want to be able to load into active memory.
>
> It's not difficult, really :)
> Gurth@******.nl -

Yeah, when you explain it THAT way. :)

Originally it read like you were saying take just
enough active memory to hold all your utilities, then
take the same amount of storage memory for backing up
the utilities. Of course, if you're taking more active
memory than necessary, then it's a different matter.
I'd dispute that 500Mp for storage of paydata is
enough, though, except for low-level campaigns. Like I
said, paydata can get very hefty, esp. if you have to
download a bunch of stuff and sort through it offline.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Tue Mar 20 14:15:01 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tue, 20 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Originally it read like you were saying take just
> enough active memory to hold all your utilities, then
> take the same amount of storage memory for backing up
> the utilities.

So what I was actually trying to say, was exactly the opposite of what you
thought... :)

> I'd dispute that 500Mp for storage of paydata is
> enough, though, except for low-level campaigns. Like I
> said, paydata can get very hefty, esp. if you have to
> download a bunch of stuff and sort through it offline.

That's another question entirely. I just grabbed some figures that sounded
OK to illustrate my point, not to give recommendations for actual values.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Wed Mar 21 00:25:11 2001
> > Originally it read like you were saying take just
enough active memory to hold all your utilities, then
take the same amount of storage memory for backing up
the utilities.
>
> So what I was actually trying to say, was exactly
the opposite of what you thought... :)

Just so...:)

> > I'd dispute that 500Mp for storage of paydata is
enough, though, except for low-level campaigns. Like I
said, paydata can get very hefty, esp. if you have to
download a bunch of stuff and sort through it offline.
>
> That's another question entirely. I just grabbed
some figures that sounded OK to illustrate my point,
not to give recommendations for actual values.
> Gurth@******.nl -

Fair 'nuff...but try to be more careful with that next
time, Gurth. Silly people like Boonie look up to you -
they're inclined to take your word as law. That's what
guruhood does.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: So you STILL want to be a Decker.
Date: Wed Mar 21 13:30:01 2001
> Fair 'nuff...but try to be more careful with that next time, Gurth.
Silly people like Boonie look up to you - they're inclined to take your
word as law. That's what guruhood does.

Riiiight. Sure, I nodded and said "good idea" when Gurth suggested
that... but I didn't actually end up matching the Active and Storage.
Sorry Gurth :) Maybe I'll blindly follow your 'guruian' suggestions
next time ;)

====-Boondocker ("Do some independant thinking? Are you sure I'm allowed?")

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