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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:32:51 -0500
Here are some special Martial Arts skills:
Hardening
Balance(?)
Zen
Flowing Water(?)

The last 3 where taken from P. Sean O'Neils MA system in TSS-02 (With
Blind Fighting renamed Zen... I'd like to find better names for Balance &
Flowing Water. Hardening is equivelent to the Iron skin ability).

All skills are purchased as General Skills and have no specializations.

Mechanics:

Hardening: 1/2 skill level (round down) is added to body to resist stun
(But not shock) physical damage. If the user has any limb limb
replacements, the limbs are not protected (Subtract 1/8th of the bonus
per Cyberarm/leg and 1/4th of the bonus for a cybertorso. Round OFF the
result.)

Balance: (1/2 skill level, round down) dice are added to attempts to
resist knockbac/down attempts. If the user is targeted specificly by a
throw, s/her may add the same number of dice to resist the damage.

Zen: Reduces Visibilty Modifiers by 1/6th the skill level of the user
round down. The user may also add 1/4th his/her skill level to his/her
reaction for surprise rolls. This ability is cumulative with Physical
Adept powers, Magic, natural Abilities, and Cybernetic/Bioware
Enhancements.

Flowing Water: The skill level acts as a combat pool for dodging ONLY and
refreshes with the users combat pool.

What do you think? Is this a bit much? Also what Martial Arts Systems
would have what abilities? Are there any other abilities you can think
of?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 2
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:02:37 -0500
At 03:32 PM 10/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Here are some special Martial Arts skills:
>Hardening
>Balance(?)
>Zen
>Flowing Water(?)

>All skills are purchased as General Skills and have no specializations.

......
>Mechanics:
>
.....
>What do you think? Is this a bit much? Also what Martial Arts Systems
>would have what abilities? Are there any other abilities you can think
>of?
>
>--
>D. Ghost

They're interesting. Personally I'd need more time to think about them.
I'm assuming they would come out of active skill. If that is the case,
won't that cut really hard into other skills?
Since this is all to define a style of martial arts, how about this... By
taking the martial arts skill, create a sub set of skills (i.e. kicks,
punches, locks, grapples, throws, and so on). My original thought was to
take the martial arts skill (say martial arts- Kung-Fu of 6) and double
that (12). From those points spend it within the style to "create" the
style. example being; kicks 6, punches 3, locks 3. When the artist goes
into melee kicking, his skill is 6, punching his skill would be 3, and so
on with locks. If he wanted to grapple or throw someone it would default
through the skill web. You could add in your skills with that. So he
could have kicks 6, punches 3, hardening 3.
By giving more points from the Unarmed combat skill, you could always
expand, say breaking kicks down to front kick, side kick, back kick,
crescent kick, round-house kick, axe kick, and so forth. This way, instead
of staying certain styles and what they get, the player creates his own
style to fit the character and could flesh out unarmed combat. I would
have to say as a rule none of the subskills (kicking) could be higher than
the unarmed combat concentration of martial arts.

Good? Bad?

Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:50:20 -0500
On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:02:37 -0500 Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET> writes:
>At 03:32 PM 10/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Here are some special Martial Arts skills:
>>Hardening
>>Balance(?)
>>Zen
>>Flowing Water(?)

>>All skills are purchased as General Skills and have no specializations.
>
>......
>>Mechanics:
>>
>.....
>>What do you think? Is this a bit much? Also what Martial Arts Systems
>>would have what abilities? Are there any other abilities you can think
>>of?
>>
>>--
>>D. Ghost

> They're interesting. Personally I'd need more time to think about
them.
>I'm assuming they would come out of active skill. If that is the case,
>won't that cut really hard into other skills?

Yes, it will ... IF you want something like Hardening of 6. The idea is
that a character will either have spent a great deal of time studying
his/her martial arts style and thus developed one or more ability to high
level or only start with a level of 1-3 in one, maybe two abilities ...
(Even if you study a martial arts form that gives you access to
Hardening, doesn't mean yoou will know it at the start of the game ...)

> Since this is all to define a style of martial arts, how about
this... By
>taking the martial arts skill, create a sub set of skills (i.e. kicks,
>punches, locks, grapples, throws, and so on). My original thought was
to
>take the martial arts skill (say martial arts- Kung-Fu of 6) and double
>that (12). From those points spend it within the style to "create" the
>style. example being; kicks 6, punches 3, locks 3. When the artist
goes
>into melee kicking, his skill is 6, punching his skill would be 3, and
so
>on with locks. If he wanted to grapple or throw someone it would
default
>through the skill web. You could add in your skills with that. So he
>could have kicks 6, punches 3, hardening 3.
<SNIP>

I don't see how this does anything other than allow multiple
specializations ... (By the way I would reccomend not allowing a
specialization [ie, kicks, punches, etc...] to exceed the base Martial
arts skill by one.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:45:28 -0400
Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
> Mechanics:
>
> Hardening: 1/2 skill level (round down) is added to body to resist stun
> (But not shock) physical damage. If the user has any limb limb
> replacements, the limbs are not protected (Subtract 1/8th of the bonus
> per Cyberarm/leg and 1/4th of the bonus for a cybertorso. Round OFF the
> result.)

...and the TN for tactile perception tests is increased by the
same ammount. Frankly, the 'I'll kill all of my nerve endings so I can't
feel pain' approach has always seemed pretty dumb to me - I mean, sometimes
you WANT those nerves, and they don't really grow back too well.

> Zen: Reduces Visibilty Modifiers by 1/6th the skill level of the user
> round down. The user may also add 1/4th his/her skill level to his/her
> reaction for surprise rolls. This ability is cumulative with Physical
> Adept powers, Magic, natural Abilities, and Cybernetic/Bioware
> Enhancements.

Um, doesn't this mean that they get a 1-point reduction in visibility
penalties at a skill of 6, and none below that? And if so...well, what's
the point in a skill that doesn't do anything at all at ranks 1-3?

> What do you think? Is this a bit much? Also what Martial Arts Systems
> would have what abilities? Are there any other abilities you can think
> of?

They're not TOO much - the effects are reasonable and not too
odd for a semi-realistic system (ie, non-cinematic). However, I just don't
theink this sort of skill fits well into the SR3 skill system. They'd fit a
little better in SR2, which had 'Special Skills', but there's just no
precedent in SR3 for skills that have inherent effects rather than being
deliberately used and rolled. I'm not sure I worded that well...does
it make sense?

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:02:32 -0500
On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:45:28 -0400 Sean McCrohan
<mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> writes:
>Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
>> Mechanics:
>>
>> Hardening: 1/2 skill level (round down) is added to body to resist
stun
>> (But not shock) physical damage. If the user has any limb limb
>> replacements, the limbs are not protected (Subtract 1/8th of the bonus
>> per Cyberarm/leg and 1/4th of the bonus for a cybertorso. Round OFF
the
>> result.)

> ...and the TN for tactile perception tests is increased by the
>same ammount. Frankly, the 'I'll kill all of my nerve endings so I can't
>feel pain' approach has always seemed pretty dumb to me - I mean,
sometimes
>you WANT those nerves, and they don't really grow back too well.

You misunderstand. That is NOT what hardening is. Hardening is
toughning of the muscle tissue (I think) as well as training yourself to
keep your muscles tight. For example, Houdini had a trick where he could
take any punch to the gut. He died when he demonstrated it to (IIRC)
some college student(s?) and the guy who punched him tried to be a
smartass and hit him HARD before he was ready (ie, caught him off guard).

Hardening is NOT training yourself to feel no pain, it is training your
body to resist damage better.

>> Zen: Reduces Visibilty Modifiers by 1/6th the skill level of the user
>> round down. The user may also add 1/4th his/her skill level to
his/her
>> reaction for surprise rolls. This ability is cumulative with Physical
>> Adept powers, Magic, natural Abilities, and Cybernetic/Bioware
>> Enhancements.

> Um, doesn't this mean that they get a 1-point reduction in
visibility
>penalties at a skill of 6, and none below that? And if so...well, what's
>the point in a skill that doesn't do anything at all at ranks 1-3?

You must be patient grasshopper. Tru enlightenment (pun intended) takes
time.

>> What do you think? Is this a bit much? Also what Martial Arts
Systems
>> would have what abilities? Are there any other abilities you can
think
>> of?

> They're not TOO much - the effects are reasonable and not too
>odd for a semi-realistic system (ie, non-cinematic). However, I just
don't
>theink this sort of skill fits well into the SR3 skill system. They'd
fit a
>little better in SR2, which had 'Special Skills', but there's just no
>precedent in SR3 for skills that have inherent effects rather than being
>deliberately used and rolled. I'm not sure I worded that well...does
>it make sense?

I fail to see where you're coming from. Why can't you create new skills
for SR3? I see no reason you can't. Also, in SR2, these skills are as
equally "without precedent". All published SR2 skills I have seen were
meant/designed to be rolled even if the likelyhood that they would be
rolled during any given game session was slim to none. However, I do not
see how that prevents the introduction of the above skills.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 6
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:24:25 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 1:39 PM
Subject: Special Martial Arts skills


:Here are some special Martial Arts skills:
:Hardening
:Balance(?)
:Zen
:Flowing Water(?)

:All skills are purchased as General Skills and have no specializations.
:
:Mechanics:
<snip descriptions>

I'm not to keen on the idea of skills adding a permant effect based on
level- that seems to much like what a power or atributte should do.
Almost all the effect listed could be imitated in my "melle style" skill
system; when used (as part of a melee test) they modify the test or
result. I could send you the article, if you's like; it was written for
shadowland #8, and I've re-done it for sr3.

Mongoose

P.S.

:Flowing Water: The skill level acts as a combat pool for dodging ONLY and
:refreshes with the users combat pool.
Way, way, way to useful. Did I mention its to good? I really think
this is far to good.
Dodge dice are like gold in SR3, and this adds more combat pool. I
got into this with the athletics / dodging thread. In case its not
obvious, anybody with a brain saves combat pool for dodging. More dodge
dice = more combat pool usable for offense, so its NOT just a defensive
effect.

The other styles had (melee only) equivalents or similar in my Style
Skill Maneuver system.

The Knockdown skill is about the only one I could see in SR; it could
be an athletics complimentary skill use. ED has a talent that does
exactly this, and it CAN be used as a skill.
Message no. 7
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:23:19 -0500
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:24:25 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
<SNIP>
>:Here are some special Martial Arts skills:
>:Hardening
>:Balance(?)
>:Zen
>:Flowing Water(?)

>:All skills are purchased as General Skills and have no specializations.
>:
>:Mechanics:
><snip descriptions>

> I'm not to keen on the idea of skills adding a permant effect based
on
>level- that seems to much like what a power or atributte should do.
>Almost all the effect listed could be imitated in my "melle style" skill
>system; when used (as part of a melee test) they modify the test or
>result. I could send you the article, if you's like; it was written for
>shadowland #8, and I've re-done it for sr3.

Where may acquire Shadowland #8 (Is it a net ressource?)

>P.S.
>
>:Flowing Water: The skill level acts as a combat pool for dodging ONLY
and
>:refreshes with the users combat pool.

WHOOPS!!!! That was supposed to be melee only. Also, the effect should
probably halved (every 2 full dice pulled from pool give 1 die for dodge)
versus edged weapons, and thirded (every 3 full yadda yadda, you get the
idea :) or quartered (every 4 full dice yadda yadda) versus shock
weapons. (Btw, is thirded a word? :)

> Way, way, way to useful. Did I mention its to good? I really think
>this is far to good.
> Dodge dice are like gold in SR3, and this adds more combat pool. I
>got into this with the athletics / dodging thread. In case its not
>obvious, anybody with a brain saves combat pool for dodging. More dodge
>dice = more combat pool usable for offense, so its NOT just a defensive
>effect.

Yup. I didn't see how that turned out. If you really wanted Athletics
related dodge, you could have a Combat Pool equal to (Q+I+W)/4, round
down and a Dodge Pool equal to Athletics/2, round down. Then allow
Combat Pool to be used to Attack AND Dodge and Dodge Pool to dodge ONLY.
That rather hampers char's offensive ability, though.

> The other styles had (melee only) equivalents or similar in my Style
>Skill Maneuver system.

I had that in mind when I wrote the above but for some reason forgot to
include it.

> The Knockdown skill is about the only one I could see in SR; it
could
>be an athletics complimentary skill use. ED has a talent that does
>exactly this, and it CAN be used as a skill.

How 1/2 skill level, or maybe even full skill level, as extra dice for
knockdown tests?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Special Martial Arts skills
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:15:01 -0400
Quoting Mongoose (evamarie@**********.net):
> :Hardening
> :Balance(?)
> :Zen
> :Flowing Water(?)
>
> I'm not to keen on the idea of skills adding a permant effect based on
> level- that seems to much like what a power or atributte should do.

Ghost, Mongoose said what I was trying to say, but said it better.
There's no problem with creating new skills - I just don't feel like the
ones you listed fit the 'philosophy' of the skill system in SR3. Like
Mongoose says, they're more like attributes.
So, that said, let me offer an alternative:

Hardening:
Have them increase Body. Rather than 'bulking out', look
at it as just making what they have more durable. If you subscribe
to the more mystical martial arts philosophies, the whole body-
awareness thing could logically have an effect on just about
everything you roll Body for in SR.

Balance:
Have them increase Quickness or Athletics, and make whichever
one you choose a complementary skill for knockdown tests. That'd
be a reasonable house rule even outside of a martial arts setting, I
think...think about, say, an acrobat.

Zen:
Allow a Perception test, target equal to the current visibility
penalty. Reduce the penalty by 1 for every 2 successes. Incidentally,
in the game Steve runs, here, he made Perception a separate skill,
starting at Intelligence/2 but increasing separately, so people
could buy it up (or down) apart from Intelligence.

Flow Like Water:
Again, this sounds like either increased Quickness feeding
into the combat pool, or Athletics complementary to a dodge roll.


In general, I'm against the idea of having special skills that only
martial artists can use. Instead, I recomend trying to trace what they've
learned back to an existing skill or attribute, and then making a house
rule if that skill or attribute doesn't have an effect in a situation where
you think it should. One of the main reasons I say that is that none of
these qualities (hardiness, good balance, keen senses, situational
awareness) are unique to the martial arts. There are various places you
could learn any of them (though, perhaps, not all of them in the same place).
By looking at the activity rather than the context in which they learned it,
your rule modifications become useful over a broader range of situations -
they can model the acrobat, the stunt man, and so forth, in addition to
the martial artist.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

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