Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:30:04 -0400
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Eve Forward wrote:

> Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
> reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
> just about every combat I've seen.

Skill, weight of numbers, reach, superior positioning and tactics,
suppressive fire, and anti-personnel mines. A good plan beats a fast gun
any day of the week.
Especially in hand-to-hand, being faster means dying faster if
you have less skill. Sure, your combat pool refreshes more often than
the other guy, but if he has twice your skill to begin with, you're
hosed. If he's smart, he'll wound you on the first action and then it's
all downhill.
And I don't care how fast you are, if you trip a claymore, you're
toast. Yes, you're scooting down the corridor at half your Quickness in
meters while still holding your action, but that just means you'll get to
the trip-wire faster.
Also keep in mind that in you basic shoot-out with corp guards,
speed is really not going to be that much of an advantage. When you
include all the modifiers (here I go again...) for shooter's movement,
target's movement, poor visibility, your cover, their cover, wounds, and
other random situational modifiers, you're often looking at a
double-digit target number. Suddenly skill, far more than speed,
becomes the deciding factor. Faster characters just waste more ammo.
In situations like this you also have to worry about the weight
of numbers. Yes, you'll shoot twice before the goons go, but your
chances of hitting, much less killing one are slim. If they have
superior numbers, they will ultimately end up rolling more dice than
you. In addition, they can often lower their target numbers to less than
yours by doing things like trapping you in a cross-fire where you have
less (or even no) cover in relation to some of them.
How about surprise? If they are laying in wait to ambush you,
their target number for the surprise test is at -2. So while you're
looking for 4's, they're looking for 2's. A wired-3, max natural
Reaction sammy has a Reaction of about 12. That's 6 successes,
statistically speaking. The corp goon with Reaction 5 and a Threat
Rating of 2 is going to at least tie. That Lone Star DED trooper with a
Reaction 8 and Threat Rating 3 is going to blow you away. And if there
are two of them? Goodbye.
On to supressive fire. It doesn't matter how fast you are,
you're still going to take rounds if you step out into an area that's
being suppressed. Though the rules don't explicitly state it, it is
reasonable to allow suppressive fire to "wrap around" from one combat
round to another. After all, you're just holding down the trigger. So
it doesn't matter how fast you are. Once you start, the renewal of
suppressive fire is a free action (house rule, but makes sense). You can
keep it up all day long, or until you run out of ammo (or you barrel
melts). And when that happens, the three goons that you didn't see while
you were pinned down have already taken up positions to hose you.
As you can see, speed is definitely not everything, especially
when facing a well-trained opponent who actually thinks rather than
standing out in the open and shooting from a standstill in a well-lit
corridor. And facing an opponent who knows you're coming and has
prepared for it? The fastest one is the first one in the bodybag.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:00:53 +0200
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:00:50 +0200 (MET DST)

> corridor. And facing an opponent who knows you're coming and has
> prepared for it? The fastest one is the first one in the bodybag.

Yes - that is definitely right. On the last run our Samurai took 2
deadly wounds (we were able to heal him with some magic) when I jumped
out of cars when we were ambushed - he was really pissed.

By the way: I built myself a Speed-Sammy that had an Initative of
4D6+13 - but I didn't only make him fast, I made him INTELLIGENT and I
improved nearly every sense you could (without Cybertechnology). The
combination was what made him deadly - after playing a bit he had
Firearms 8, Monofilament Whip (in Fingertip Compartment) 8, Stealth 8,
Athletics 8 ... I used some Reflex Recorders for this, but he WAS very
skilled and extremely dangerous.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 3
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:11:29 -0700
>By the way: I built myself a Speed-Sammy that had an Initative of
>4D6+13 - but I didn't only make him fast, I made him INTELLIGENT
>and I improved nearly every sense you could (without Cybertech).
>The combination was what made him deadly - after playing a bit he
>had Firearms 8, Monofilament Whip (in Fingertip Compartment) 8,
>Stealth 8, Athletics 8 ... I used some Reflex Recorders for this,
>but he WAS very skilled and extremely dangerous.
>
>Bye...
> Georg

Show us this speed deamon, put him on the list (or email it to me)
I'ld be very interested in what all you added to him.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 4
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:10:02 GMT
Marc A Renouf writes:
> > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> > Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
> > reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
> > just about every combat I've seen.
>
> Skill, weight of numbers, reach, superior positioning and tactics,
> suppressive fire, and anti-personnel mines. A good plan beats a fast gun
> any day of the week.

> Also keep in mind that in you basic shoot-out with corp guards,
> speed is really not going to be that much of an advantage. When you
> include all the modifiers (here I go again...) for shooter's movement,
> target's movement, poor visibility, your cover, their cover, wounds, and
> other random situational modifiers, you're often looking at a
> double-digit target number. Suddenly skill, far more than speed,
> becomes the deciding factor. Faster characters just waste more ammo.

Low hit probability means he who fires most often wins.

> In situations like this you also have to worry about the weight
> of numbers. Yes, you'll shoot twice before the goons go, but your
> chances of hitting, much less killing one are slim. If they have
> superior numbers, they will ultimately end up rolling more dice than
> you. In addition, they can often lower their target numbers to less than
> yours by doing things like trapping you in a cross-fire where you have
> less (or even no) cover in relation to some of them.

Speed gives you more chance to deal with that. Speed also gives you more
time to retreat and live to lie about it. And if you have thermographic
or ultrasound and they don't, speed lets you dirty the area up with smoke
grenades. It hurts them more than you and evens the odds.

If you run into security who are dug in and organised, smoke them off and
pull back behind a hail of gunfire and anything that might spoil their
shooting (flash packs, flash grenades, smoke, setting fires, activating
the sprinklers...) If you're outnumbered, attacking into a prepared position's
killing ground will get you killed however much you paid for those wires.

> How about surprise? If they are laying in wait to ambush you,
> their target number for the surprise test is at -2. So while you're
> looking for 4's, they're looking for 2's. A wired-3, max natural
> Reaction sammy has a Reaction of about 12. That's 6 successes,
> statistically speaking. The corp goon with Reaction 5 and a Threat
> Rating of 2 is going to at least tie. That Lone Star DED trooper with a
> Reaction 8 and Threat Rating 3 is going to blow you away. And if there
> are two of them? Goodbye.

So where is the Reaction 5-6 non-wired PC at any advantage at all? The wireboy
at least starts out even. Without wires, you're completely hosed. This
certainly doesn't support the contention that high speed is irrelevant.

> On to supressive fire. It doesn't matter how fast you are,
> you're still going to take rounds if you step out into an area that's
> being suppressed. Though the rules don't explicitly state it, it is
> reasonable to allow suppressive fire to "wrap around" from one combat
> round to another. After all, you're just holding down the trigger.

Not at all: suppressive fire takes conscious thought and training. Anyone
can put holes in landscape: putting rounds where they will pin and intimidate
an enemy into staying put, is a skill the British Army teaches you.

"Holding the trigger down" on any automatic weapon leads to a lot of lead
fired harmlessly into the sky, an empty magazine within three seconds,
and if you keep reloading, you can shoot off your entire ammo load in
under two minutes. By then the barrel is red-hot and ruined.

In this scenario, the bad guys are emptying magazines as fast as they
can slap them into the weapons: embarrasing when thirty or forty Combat
Phases into the fight, the entire opposing force runs out of ammo in unison.

> So
> it doesn't matter how fast you are. Once you start, the renewal of
> suppressive fire is a free action (house rule, but makes sense). You can
> keep it up all day long, or until you run out of ammo (or you barrel
> melts). And when that happens, the three goons that you didn't see while
> you were pinned down have already taken up positions to hose you.

The way you put suppressive fire on two men is to have eight troops keep
a steady fire of single aimed shots into their position. In SR terms, you
hold your action and then stagger them through the combat turn. Recall
that in real life, you maintain suppressive fire on a position for up
to fifteen minutes while your assault section moves into place and attacks.

> As you can see, speed is definitely not everything, especially
> when facing a well-trained opponent who actually thinks rather than
> standing out in the open and shooting from a standstill in a well-lit
> corridor. And facing an opponent who knows you're coming and has
> prepared for it? The fastest one is the first one in the bodybag.

The problem is that fast is still better than slow. Every one of your
examples is simply "smart bad guys with superior numbers can beat the
hell out of the players". Now play the same numbers with non-wired
characters... and if both wired and non-wired fight smart, you'll see
a lot more of the wireboys/girls get out alive.

An ambush? Wired sammy needs 4s on 12 dice, goons need 2s on 6 dice? Fine.
But non-wired PC needs 4s on 6 dice, goons need 2s on 6 dice, is even more
of a slaughter.

Try a meeting engagement: guards and runners both alert, both looking
for the others. The first side to get a grenade launcher or squad automatic
weapon firing controls the engagement from that point on. In other words,
he who reacts fastest writes the contact report.

A running fight as the players pull back through the corridors? The wireboys
have more actions in which to place surprises as they retreat. Without
wires you're less able to take an action to check the corridor, before moving
into it.

Wires, all the sensory mods you can use, smartgun links, selected bioware
(endurance mods like synthacardium, plus damage compensators) are exactly
what you need to help you fight when routinely outnumbered. Use speed and
surprise to tackle larger forces, use superior senses to avoid being caught
by surprise. When engaged, screw up visibility: it hurts them more than you.
If things go bad, you can run further and faster than them, and you
can fight while hurt if necessary.

If you can dictate the terms of the engagement you've already won: if you
had that advantage and lost, you did something badly wrong. The question is,
how well do you cope when you are *not* dictating the terms? When the melee-
combat death-on-legs physad finds himself under fire from a medium MG four
hundred yards away, when the sniper discovers there's a guard in her chosen
firing position, when the demolition expert is attacked while laying those
handy AP mines...

Saying speed will automatically let you win is ludicrous. But a smart merc
or samurai knows that wires buy you time to re-evaluate your options: speed
counts when you run away, too.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:35:00 PDT
>By the way: I built myself a Speed-Sammy that had an Initative of
>4D6+13 - but I didn't only make him fast, I made him INTELLIGENT and I
>improved nearly every sense you could (without Cybertechnology). The
>combination was what made him deadly - after playing a bit he had
>Firearms 8, Monofilament Whip (in Fingertip Compartment) 8, Stealth 8,
>Athletics 8 ... I used some Reflex Recorders for this, but he WAS very
>skilled and extremely dangerous.

I got ya beat on this one. My PC, (I hate the word Sam) started with an
initiative od 4d6+17. no it is 4d6+19 and almost 20. I don't mean to
boast, i spent 2 weeks designing this character and his personality. If you
think I'm a munchkin, I did this by the book. well, the main rules and
shadowtech only.

Rick St Jean

<<<<<stjeanr@*******.canadore.ca>>>>>
Message no. 6
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:24:41 -0400
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and reaction
and
> not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in just about every combat
I've
> seen.

Eve, a sniper works pretty well at defeating high inits, especially the first
round. After that it is going to take a few phases for the character to
locate the sniper (observe in detail, with his head exposed). If you want to
munchkin it you can say that the sniper has been taking careful aim for a few
turns and holds his action from the end of 1 turn so that just prior to his
first action in the next turn (before he has opened up and alerted the
target) he fires and in the very next phase he fires again (albeit without
the careful aim bonus).

But by far and away the best way to defeat speed is melee combat, where he
who is fast just provides a lot of opportunities for his opponent to swing
back.

There are other "special" situations you can come up with to negate the
characters abilities, these are just two of the methods I prefer if I can't
think of something really clever and fun.

Duke
Message no. 7
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 02:44:33 -0400
This message was sent to owner-shadowrn (which then forwarded it
to me) due to a major failing of Microsoft Mail. If you have a choice,
use a program which handles Internet EMail correctly. If not, always keep
an eye on who you're actually sending the message to.

---------- FORWARDED MESSAGE ----------
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
To: owner-shadowrn <owner-shadowrn@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 15:33:00 PDT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


> corridor. And facing an opponent who knows you're coming and has
> prepared for it? The fastest one is the first one in the bodybag.

I'm sorry I don't agree. The stupidest one is the first one in the body
bag. please don't flame.

I have a chrome king (with 4d6 +19 initiative. Soon to be 20) and only
once have I went down. My GM thought it would be funny to put me up against
3 cyborgs with shotguns and apds. ( surprise I shot one twice with 12
successes and it still wouldn't go down.) This would have been fine but I
had only 1 clip in a HP and no armor. i took a deadly of course TN12 and
8 successes to counter. I only have 8 body.

The point is just because you are fast, doesn't mean you are stupid. Delays
are wonderous things. You can still move 1/2 quickness.


I also have a mage with 1d6+1 initiative so i know what it is like to be at
bothe ends of the speed spectrum. Force 7 exclusive physical barrier.

Please e-mail me a copy of your best characters. I need them for a run.

Rick St Jean

<<<<<stjeanr@*******.canadore.ca>>>>>



-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| Assistant Listowner, ShadowRN, NERPS, ShadowTK, and Plot-D |
| (Please enjoy this Admin-after-DEATH experience) |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 8
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:31:38 -0400
On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Duke Diener wrote:

> If you want to munchkin it you can say that the sniper has been taking
> careful aim for a few turns and holds his action from the end of 1
> turn so that just prior to his first action in the next turn (before he
> has opened up and alerted the target) he fires and in the very next
> phase he fires again (albeit without the careful aim bonus).

Ummmmm...read the rules on held actions again. The kind of thing
you are describing is not allowed (at least not by the rules as written
anyway). You have to wait a full 10 phases until you can act again,
regardless of when your initiative would allow you to act. It's
expressly to keep people from trying to "munchkin it." :)

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:00:11 -0400
> I also have a mage with 1d6+1 initiative so i know what it is like to be at
> bothe ends of the speed spectrum. Force 7 exclusive physical barrier.

I'm sorry, but this spell sounds sorta...pointless. If it's a
good physical barrier, you won't be able to shoot through it. And if
it's exclusive, you can't cast spells while sustaining it. So you've
basically hamstrung yourself (unless you're using a laser ;).
Now granted, I can think of a few special circumstances where this
would be great, but if I were a mage, this would be a last ditch spell.

Marc
Message no. 10
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:14:33 -0400
In a message dated 95-09-22 15:51:53 EDT, you write:

>> If you want to munchkin it you can say that the sniper has been taking
[snip, snip]
> You have to wait a full 10 phases until you can act again,
>regardless of when your initiative would allow you to act. It's
>expressly to keep people from trying to "munchkin it." :)
>
>Marc

You are right...obviously I don't "munchkin it" very often <grin>.

Duke
Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:28:15 +0100
>>I also have a mage with 1d6+1 initiative so i know what it is like to be
>>at bothe ends of the speed spectrum. Force 7 exclusive physical barrier.

> I'm sorry, but this spell sounds sorta...pointless. If it's a
>good physical barrier, you won't be able to shoot through it. And if it's
>exclusive, you can't cast spells while sustaining it. So you've basically
>hamstrung yourself (unless you're using a laser ;).
> Now granted, I can think of a few special circumstances where this
>would be great, but if I were a mage, this would be a last ditch spell.
>
>Marc

I made a similar barrier spell, only it was force 6 + 2(exp.fet) +2(excl)
for a total of 10. This would cripple unless it's quickened or locked,
which it is. Now it takes a weapon with base 30 power to break the barrier
in one shot. Not likely to happen in a rustle with the local street gang.

So remember, all you mages out there, always lock, quicken, elemental
sustain, your exclusive spells!

Madman (Mages Rule!!)
Message no. 12
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:13:32 +0100
> So remember, all you mages out there, always lock, quicken, elemental
> sustain, your exclusive spells!

Locking is out of the question as its one hell of a health hazzard,
quickening is much too unwieldy and much too expensive (karmawise) for
my tastes. Using an elemental to sustain a spell however is a great idea.
I have often thought about it, but have never had the chance to try it
out. An elemental would not only sustain the spell, but also protect it
at the same time. The best think about it however is that elementals in
the astral canot be grounded through :)

Anyway does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:32:51 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Anyway does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing ?

Using elementals to sustain spells is expensive... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 14
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:03:59 +0100
> > Anyway does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing ?
>
> Using elementals to sustain spells is expensive... :)

Well not nececerily, but a rather strong force 6-10 Elemental would
be kinda expensive, not to mention taxing to summon :) Anyway its a really
fullproff way of sustaining a spell on yourself and you only need to do it
once a run. I'd say that a highpayed runner mage would definitely spend the
10K to do it.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 15
From: U-Fwnw <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:10:34 EDT
Jani Fikouras:
>Well not necessarily, but a rather strong force 6-10 elementel would be kinda
>expensive [snip]
>I'd say a highpayed runner mage would definitely spend the 10k to do it.

AYIEEEEE! How well paid is that? My runs average about 30k and that makes
that a whole third of a paycheck. OTOH the mage characters don't have that
much stuff to spend money on, so might as well spend keepin himself alive.
But just to make sure, once you spend the 10k to make a circle to summon the
elemental, you can keep using that circle to summon THAT type of elemental
again and again. But I have been known to be wrong.

I still haven't gotton the copy function to work, so sorry if I cut messages
short in my replies.

U-Gene << Decker who can't possibly collect enough money to keep up with
Tech>>
Message no. 16
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:51:53 +0100
> Jani Fikouras:
> >Well not necessarily, but a rather strong force 6-10 elementel would be kinda
> >expensive [snip]
> >I'd say a highpayed runner mage would definitely spend the 10k to do it.
>
> AYIEEEEE! How well paid is that? My runs average about 30k and that makes
> that a whole third of a paycheck. OTOH the mage characters don't have that
> much stuff to spend money on, so might as well spend keepin himself alive.
> But just to make sure, once you spend the 10k to make a circle to summon the
> elemental, you can keep using that circle to summon THAT type of elemental
> again and again. But I have been known to be wrong.
>
> I still haven't gotton the copy function to work, so sorry if I cut messages
> short in my replies.

No you are right, OTOH do you know how big a force 10 cirlce is ? I'd
rule that you have to pay an amount of money to keep that space, something
like an extra rent.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 17
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:06:04 EDT
Jani Fikouras:
>No, you are right, OTOH do you know how big a force 10 circle is? I'd
>rule you would have to pay an amount of money to keep that space, something
>like extra rent.

I'd buy that. Maybe more like maintance. Like the difference between
keeping a pool clean (force 10) to a bucket clean (force 3). Maybe like
5% a month for all circles?

I think I learn more rules on this list then from the book!

U-Gene << Glad he has the rules straight for once >>
Message no. 18
From: Christopher C Mooney <ccmooney@********.CA>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:15:07 -0400
On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > So remember, all you mages out there, always lock, quicken, elemental
> > sustain, your exclusive spells!
>
> Locking is out of the question as its one hell of a health hazzard,
> quickening is much too unwieldy and much too expensive (karmawise) for
> my tastes. Using an elemental to sustain a spell however is a great idea.

Would some-one care to elucidate on what they believe to be the
necessary game mechanics for having an elemental sustain a spell over a
period long enough to accomplish a run. Both of the mage characters within
our campaign make use of quickened increase reflexes and increase
reaction spells, (almost a necessity in order to both survive and be
effective) and we're more than happy with it.
I'd also like to hear your opinions as to what people feel to be
the benefits of quickening versus anchoring are in this area (reflex
enhancement).
Thanks,
Japes
Message no. 19
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:35:27 -0500
> Would some-one care to elucidate on what they believe to be the
> necessary game mechanics for having an elemental sustain a spell over a
> period long enough to accomplish a run. Both of the mage characters within
> our campaign make use of quickened increase reflexes and increase
> reaction spells, (almost a necessity in order to both survive and be
> effective) and we're more than happy with it.
> I'd also like to hear your opinions as to what people feel to be
> the benefits of quickening versus anchoring are in this area (reflex
> enhancement).
> Thanks,
> Japes
>
Read the bits about elemental services. An elemental can sustain a spell two
ways- very short term, or on a long term basis. Long term sustaining of
spells permanatly lowers thier force, wheras short term only lowers it until
you ask for another favor. Also, the elemental is vul;nerable to astal atacks
and other magic in either case.
Quickening can be very effective and hard to break. I think anchoring is
easier to break, and to mke it sustained, much more draining. It is, however,
more versatile- you could even give the anchor to a teamate as a "magic item".
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 11:27:22 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> > > Anyway does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing ?
> >
> > Using elementals to sustain spells is expensive... :)
>
> Well not nececerily, but a rather strong force 6-10 Elemental would
> be kinda expensive, not to mention taxing to summon :) Anyway its a really
> fullproff way of sustaining a spell on yourself and you only need to do it
> once a run. I'd say that a highpayed runner mage would definitely spend the
> 10K to do it.

Until, instead of having spells channeled his way, he gets his elementals
zapped instead. :) Not to mention that's another service down the drain,
and the elemental probably couldn't sustain it and fight at the same time
(can't remember... rules check, anyone?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 11:30:02 +0930
U-Fwnw wrote:
> But just to make sure, once you spend the 10k to make a circle to summon the
> elemental, you can keep using that circle to summon THAT type of elemental
> again and again. But I have been known to be wrong.

MAKING the circle costs nothing but time, and materials. What materials you
use depends on how permanent you want it. You can inscribe a circle in the
dust of a thousand year old tomb, if you want to (and if you could find
one... :), or use the chalk you carry around to play hopscotch on the
sidewalk with. Or even neon-pink spray paint (use a fine nozzle, though).

The money spent on ritual goods t summon the elemental is needed each time,
though. It's used up in the summoning.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 11:43:05 +0930
Christopher C Mooney wrote:
>
> Would some-one care to elucidate on what they believe to be the
> necessary game mechanics for having an elemental sustain a spell over a
> period long enough to accomplish a run. Both of the mage characters within
> our campaign make use of quickened increase reflexes and increase
> reaction spells, (almost a necessity in order to both survive and be
> effective) and we're more than happy with it.

Sure, no worries. It's a service to sustain the spell. It's another service
for every 24 hours the elemental hangs around. Oh, and you can't tell the
elemental to bugger off home (it has to stick around) so you stand out on
the astral plane like a sore thumb. Oh, and I _think_ that the elemental
has to be of a Force at least equal to that of the spell.

> I'd also like to hear your opinions as to what people feel to be
> the benefits of quickening versus anchoring are in this area (reflex
> enhancement).

Quickening is nice, anchoring is more convienent.

It also depends on how you play cyber. In my games, for example, wired
reflexes can be turned off. So the sams don't HAVE to live on the edge all
the time. (If you want the rules, it's a simple action to turn it on or
off, but you don't get the benefit, or the loss, until the next round).
Anchoring helps reflect that.

Also, while I'm sure quickened spells can be zapped through to you,
anchored spells keep being discussed, and I can never remember the answer.
I'm not asking for one, either, as I'm sure it's in "Awakenings".

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 23
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:31:32 +0100
> > > > Anyway does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing
?
> > >
> > > Using elementals to sustain spells is expensive... :)
> >
> > Well not nececerily, but a rather strong force 6-10 Elemental would
> > be kinda expensive, not to mention taxing to summon :) Anyway its a really
> > fullproff way of sustaining a spell on yourself and you only need to do it
> > once a run. I'd say that a highpayed runner mage would definitely spend the
> > 10K to do it.
>
> Until, instead of having spells channeled his way, he gets his elementals
> zapped instead. :) Not to mention that's another service down the drain,
> and the elemental probably couldn't sustain it and fight at the same time
> (can't remember... rules check, anyone?)

I dont think that a force 10 elemental has much to fear from spells. Not
to mention that its probably so quick (in the astral) that it'll beat the
brains out of any spell tossed its way. And as the elemental is not
manifesting you (the mage) got nothing to fear.
As for the services, well you can kiss all your services goodby. I was
thinking more along the lines of dedicated service, you know were you
give up all your services. The elemental would loose one force point
per day, but that shouldnt be a problem. Most runs last 2 or 3 days
tops. And yes the elemental can sure sustain it and fight at the same
time, not that anyone would be dumb enough toduke it out with a
force 10 elemental in the astral. And even if that happens, you
can always project and gang up on the attacker, can you say *ouch* :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:44:58 +0100
> From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>

> MAKING the circle costs nothing but time, and materials. What materials you
> use depends on how permanent you want it. You can inscribe a circle in the
> dust of a thousand year old tomb, if you want to (and if you could find
> one... :), or use the chalk you carry around to play hopscotch on the
> sidewalk with. Or even neon-pink spray paint (use a fine nozzle, though).

Could you draw a ritual circle with just your finger on a clean concrete
floor? I mean, you won't see anything that looks like a circle but you
have gone through the motions to draw one...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be that it's only superficiality?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:22:36 +0100
> > > So remember, all you mages out there, always lock, quicken, elemental
> > > sustain, your exclusive spells!
> >
> > Locking is out of the question as its one hell of a health hazzard,
> > quickening is much too unwieldy and much too expensive (karmawise) for
> > my tastes. Using an elemental to sustain a spell however is a great idea.
>
> Would some-one care to elucidate on what they believe to be the
> necessary game mechanics for having an elemental sustain a spell over a
> period long enough to accomplish a run. Both of the mage characters within
> our campaign make use of quickened increase reflexes and increase
> reaction spells, (almost a necessity in order to both survive and be
> effective) and we're more than happy with it.

Well, if you dedicate an elemental to sustaining a spell it will sustain
it for a number of days equall to its force rating. With each day that
passes it will loose one force point. So in oreder for it to sustain it
for a reasonable amount of time, it has to be quite high force.

> I'd also like to hear your opinions as to what people feel to be
> the benefits of quickening versus anchoring are in this area (reflex
> enhancement).

Anchoring is the best, but it costs mondo karma. It gives you both
flexibility (you can turn it one/off) and strength (you can invest
karma to fortify it). Its only problem is that it costs mondo karma.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 26
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:24:54 +0100
> Quickening can be very effective and hard to break. I think anchoring is
> easier to break, and to mke it sustained, much more draining. It is, however,
> more versatile- you could even give the anchor to a teamate as a "magic
item".

An anchoring can be as anduring as a quickening, its all a matter of karma.
The more you pump into it the stronger it gets. And provided you design it
with some sort of switch, you'll never hace to wait outside because your
quickening want go through the barrier.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:50:57 +0100
> > MAKING the circle costs nothing but time, and materials. What materials you
> > use depends on how permanent you want it. You can inscribe a circle in the
> > dust of a thousand year old tomb, if you want to (and if you could find
> > one... :), or use the chalk you carry around to play hopscotch on the
> > sidewalk with. Or even neon-pink spray paint (use a fine nozzle, though).
>
> Could you draw a ritual circle with just your finger on a clean concrete
> floor? I mean, you won't see anything that looks like a circle but you
> have gone through the motions to draw one...

Naaa, you need the ritual materials to draw the circle. I agree
that a mage would have to pay some sort of upkeep to keep the
circle operational, but he doesnt have to pay the full price over and
over again.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 28
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <steve@*******.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 19:16:27 +0200
On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, U-Gene wrote:

> I'd buy that. Maybe more like maintance. Like the difference between
> keeping a pool clean (force 10) to a bucket clean (force 3). Maybe like
> 5% a month for all circles?

That would be a lifestyle thing. If it starts to form a habit, your GM
should rule your lifestyle has gone up and you have to pay up.

--
Stephanos Piperoglou -- steve@****.hol.gr
"Beside the everlasting `Why?' there is a `Yes', and a `Yes', and a `Yes'!"
- E. M. Forster, "A Room with a View"
Geek Code v3.1: GCS/S/M/L/PA d- s++:++ a16 C++++ UL++>++++ P+ L+++>++++ E
W+>+++ N+ o? K w--- O- M+ !V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R+++ tv b++(+++)
DI+ D+ G++ e->++++* h! r y?
Message no. 29
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:06:57 EDT
Robert Watkins:

>U-Fwnw wrote:

No, this wasn't a typo by Robert, it was a typo by me when I signed it.
Silly me. Imagine my embarresment.

[snip about the summoning materials costing, not the circle.]

I can't get anything right these days :)

U-Gene << Decker who would like to give up on magic if he didn't GM >>
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:28:42 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> I dont think that a force 10 elemental has much to fear from spells. Not
> to mention that its probably so quick (in the astral) that it'll beat the
> brains out of any spell tossed its way. And as the elemental is not
> manifesting you (the mage) got nothing to fear.

Gang up on it... or have the mage have to go through a ward. :) "What do
you mean my elemental can't go through it?"

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:35:27 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> Could you draw a ritual circle with just your finger on a clean concrete
> floor? I mean, you won't see anything that looks like a circle but you
> have gone through the motions to draw one...

I'd say yeah, but who says the elemental would think there was a circle
there? :)

Of course, sustain a "Flame Hand" spell (a neat one I just thought off),
and you'd at least leave a trail of soot behind. Or you could dip your
finger in soysauce now and then...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:36:17 +0100
> Naaa, you need the ritual materials to draw the circle.

Acme Mystic Circle Paint? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be that it's only superficiality?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 33
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:06:37 +0100
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > I dont think that a force 10 elemental has much to fear from spells. Not
> > to mention that its probably so quick (in the astral) that it'll beat the
> > brains out of any spell tossed its way. And as the elemental is not
> > manifesting you (the mage) got nothing to fear.
>
> Gang up on it... or have the mage have to go through a ward. :) "What do
> you mean my elemental can't go through it?"

Yes, that would be a problem, the question is does an elemental have to
follow the mage at all times in order to sustain the spell ? I think not,
especially for a spell like increased reflexes that only requires touch.
What do you think ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 34
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 02:11:30 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Yes, that would be a problem, the question is does an elemental have to
> follow the mage at all times in order to sustain the spell ? I think not,
> especially for a spell like increased reflexes that only requires touch.
> What do you think ?

I would rule that they have to stick around in the real world rather than
disappearing back into the metaplanes. Which means they fall under the LOS
rule for elemental services, with the exception of remote service. And, as
the ward would block astral LOS, they'd have to follow the mage through...
which means dropping the ward and alerting the security.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:25:58 +0100
> > Naaa, you need the ritual materials to draw the circle.
>
> Acme Mystic Circle Paint? :)

Whatever works for you chummer, I prefer the Forcefull Oligocentric
Oriented Barrier Allocation Radius technique :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 36
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:36:02 +0100
> > Yes, that would be a problem, the question is does an elemental have to
> > follow the mage at all times in order to sustain the spell ? I think not,
> > especially for a spell like increased reflexes that only requires touch.
> > What do you think ?
>
> I would rule that they have to stick around in the real world rather than
> disappearing back into the metaplanes. Which means they fall under the LOS
> rule for elemental services, with the exception of remote service. And, as
> the ward would block astral LOS, they'd have to follow the mage through...
> which means dropping the ward and alerting the security.

Yes, but why ? this doesnt make any sence. A mage can sustain a spell from
the astral so why should an elemental be able to do the same thing. As for
it always having to follow the mage around, I dont see the reason why. I mean
a mage can cast Incr. Reflexes on a person (touch) and then go shopping
for all he cares. Sure the caster will have a +2 for all TNs, but that
is irrelevant.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 37
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 00:31:40 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Yes, but why ? this doesnt make any sence. A mage can sustain a spell from
> the astral so why should an elemental be able to do the same thing. As for
> it always having to follow the mage around, I dont see the reason why. I mean
> a mage can cast Incr. Reflexes on a person (touch) and then go shopping
> for all he cares. Sure the caster will have a +2 for all TNs, but that
> is irrelevant.

The elemental has to stay in this plane, or the astral plane... it can't go
back to the metaplanes. So it's not going to be able to follow the mage
through a ward, or other astral barrier (even when manifesting, it's still
dual-natured), without breaching it first.

And it has to stay with the mage, cause otherwise that'd be a remote
service, which has to be specified at the time of summoning.

And sure, the MAGE can sustain it, but we're talking about elementals
sustaining spells. :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 38
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 01:07:52 +0100
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 01:07:49 +0100 (MET)

> I made a similar barrier spell, only it was force 6 + 2(exp.fet) +2(excl)
> for a total of 10. This would cripple unless it's quickened or locked,
> which it is. Now it takes a weapon with base 30 power to break the barrier
> in one shot. Not likely to happen in a rustle with the local street gang.

Huh ? I always thought you could only use exclusive OR fetish
modifiers, not BOTH in the same spell.

Bye...
Georg

P.S. Just think about a exclusive, expandable + reusable fetish -
spell: +5 force !!! ;-)
Message no. 39
From: Matt DeBarger <Neuromanc@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:32:28 -0400
A quick side question. How would you get an elemental to sustain inc flexes,
there is no health spell elemental. (ie fire = combat, earth = manipulation,
air = detection, water = illusion).
Message no. 40
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:19:30 -0400
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Matt DeBarger wrote:

> A quick side question. How would you get an elemental to sustain inc flexes,
> there is no health spell elemental. (ie fire = combat, earth = manipulation,
> air = detection, water = illusion).

A quick answer: You wouldn't.

Marc
Message no. 41
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:20:52 -0400
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > > Naaa, you need the ritual materials to draw the circle.
> >
> > Acme Mystic Circle Paint? :)
>
> Whatever works for you chummer, I prefer the Forcefull Oligocentric
> Oriented Barrier Allocation Radius technique :)

Ah! The infamous "FOOBAR" technique. All is made clear!

Marc
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:56:08 +0100
Matt DeBarger said on 29 Sep 95...

> A quick side question. How would you get an elemental to sustain inc flexes,
> there is no health spell elemental. (ie fire = combat, earth = manipulation,
> air = detection, water = illusion).

You can't get an elemental to do that, plain and simple. As you point out
no elemental is there for health spells, so none can sustain it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
FAQ? What is that? :)
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 43
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:07:17 +0100
> A quick side question. How would you get an elemental to sustain inc flexes,
> there is no health spell elemental. (ie fire = combat, earth = manipulation,
> air = detection, water = illusion).

Errr, good question. :) *blush* I am afraid you cant. This however does
not make the topic any less iteresting.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 44
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:27:29 +0100
Gurth Wrote:

>Matt DeBarger said on 29 Sep 95...
>
>> A quick side question. How would you get an elemental to sustain inc
>>flexes,
>> there is no health spell elemental. (ie fire = combat, earth =
>>manipulation,
>> air = detection, water = illusion).

>You can't get an elemental to do that, plain and simple. As you point out
>no elemental is there for health spells, so none can sustain it.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

The only way to get another to sustain your health spells, is to get
yourself an ally spirit. They can sustain any type of spells.

Madman
Message no. 45
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed is Life (Is it?) (fwd)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:58:23 +0100
Robert Watkins said:
>
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> >
> > Yes, but why ? this doesnt make any sence. A mage can sustain a spell from
> > the astral so why should an elemental be able to do the same thing. As for
> >it always having to follow the mage around, I dont see the reason why. I mean
> > a mage can cast Incr. Reflexes on a person (touch) and then go shopping
> > for all he cares. Sure the caster will have a +2 for all TNs, but that
> > is irrelevant.
>
> The elemental has to stay in this plane, or the astral plane... it can't go
> back to the metaplanes. So it's not going to be able to follow the mage
> through a ward, or other astral barrier (even when manifesting, it's still
> dual-natured), without breaching it first.

Yes, but no going to the metaplanes does not mean that it has to follow
the mage around (even in the astral). As I see it its entirely possible for the
elemental to sustain the spell from say the mages home (astral side of the
barrier) or some other apropriate hiding place.

> And it has to stay with the mage, cause otherwise that'd be a remote
> service, which has to be specified at the time of summoning.

Ok, you got anything against that ? After all its the only way to get
a reasonable duration out of the elemental.

> And sure, the MAGE can sustain it, but we're talking about elementals
> sustaining spells. :)

Yes and no, as I see it this only means that the elemental should get
more slack, after all it is a native being of the astral plane. OTOH
if you plainly want to forbidd it, well that a totaly different ballgame :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Speed is Life (Is it?), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!