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Message no. 1
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:17:25 -0600 (MDT)
Ben Singley wrote:
|
[snip: wonderful example of how to reign in players' access to toys]
|
|To my experience, and I've reached
|a consensus on this with all the people with whom I've ever played SRII, in
|terms of combat, regardless of skill level (kinda), speed is what
|influences combat the most. This if often true in any scenario, and I'm
|not just talking about the SRII game system. But it can get a bit outta
|hand in the SRII game system (my opinion, I know this'll spark a big
|debate). what is the point of developing a character when all you really
|need to be combat effective is a smartlink, Wired refs 3 (or move by wire),
|muscle aug 4, enhanced articulation, and an adrenal pump (level 2)? That's
|a reaction (assuming quickness and Intelligence of 6) of 20+4D6.--Gakk.

I agree that speed plays a major factor in SRII combat. All of my
players have allready figured that out and each PC has at least some
form of enhancement. But, it's really easy to equalize. Just throw a
large number of opponents at them (4:1 or better). If you use enough
they don't even have to be all that good (the most fun I had when
playing AD&D was surrounding experienced PCs with an army of Kobolds).

The other equalizers are armor, cover, perception and range. If you
can't hit your opponent(s), or don't know where he is, then it doesn't
matter how fast you are.

And, IMHO, the best way around the speed freak is to eliminate that factor
from an adventure. Don't make combat an issue.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't let the speed characters have fun by
letting them chew up the opposition from time to time. I'm just saying
that it isn't cut in stone that speed rules.

BTW, my favorite trick is to use manifesting critters. It eliminates the
use of the sams' weapons and they have to go hand-to-hand and rely on
willpower instead of skill. Plus, the critters are fast and pretty magic
resistant too.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 2
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:02:28 +0200
On 12.06.96, David Buehrer wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)":
[Ben Singley about speed in combat]
> I agree that speed plays a major factor in SRII combat. All of my
> players have allready figured that out and each PC has at least some
> form of enhancement. But, it's really easy to equalize. Just throw a
> large number of opponents at them (4:1 or better). If you use enough
> they don't even have to be all that good (the most fun I had when
> playing AD&D was surrounding experienced PCs with an army of Kobolds).
>
> The other equalizers are armor, cover, perception and range. If you
> can't hit your opponent(s), or don't know where he is, then it doesn't
> matter how fast you are.
You forget at least two other equalizers: a) surprise. No, I am NOT talking
'bout the rules on p. 86, but the moments when the players (or the GM :-)
just sits and stares in awe.If you keep your combats fast and don't give
your players too much time to think, you may get them cold. I managed that
twice, first time our mage discovered the backdraws of spell locks (no, he
didn't know till then :-), second time when a "civilian" bypassing car
suddenly poped open a turret and hose the runners' vehicle down ("What do
you mean, power of 20?"). Both times the whole group was just frozen :-)

The other thing is TACTICS. Work with delayed actions, fool the players
(sure, there *was* the click of an AR running out of ammo... but noone said
a thing about the 2nd grunt :-), circle 'em in, ...
There was a great file posted here once (my players HATE it :-), I don't
know by who, but may have a look.

[snip]
> BTW, my favorite trick is to use manifesting critters. It eliminates the
> use of the sams' weapons and they have to go hand-to-hand and rely on
> willpower instead of skill. Plus, the critters are fast and pretty magic
> resistant too.
Spirits are great there, too.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 3
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:19:28 PDT
> The other thing is TACTICS. Work with delayed actions, fool the players
> (sure, there *was* the click of an AR running out of ammo... but noone said
> a thing about the 2nd grunt :-), circle 'em in, ...
> There was a great file posted here once (my players HATE it :-), I don't
> know by who, but may have a look.
>

And have someone bring a portable sound player... "SURE you heard an
AR run out of ammo... I didn't say it DID, though, did I?"
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:30:32 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 22:02/12 Jun 96...

> The other thing is TACTICS. Work with delayed actions, fool the players
> (sure, there *was* the click of an AR running out of ammo... but noone said
> a thing about the 2nd grunt :-), circle 'em in, ...
> There was a great file posted here once (my players HATE it :-), I don't
> know by who, but may have a look.

You mean Marc Renouf's combat tactics file? That one was very good,
although most of the things you can think up with a bit of common sense
yourself as well (I'm a great believer in common sense :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Gurth wrote:

> You mean Marc Renouf's combat tactics file? That one was very good,
> although most of the things you can think up with a bit of common sense
> yourself as well (I'm a great believer in common sense :)

That's just it. Good tactics is often just good common sense.
The flashier stuff gets, the more can go wrong. :)

Marc
Message no. 6
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:19:48 +0000
> > The other thing is TACTICS. Work with delayed actions, fool the players
> > (sure, there *was* the click of an AR running out of ammo... but noone said
> > a thing about the 2nd grunt :-), circle 'em in, ...
> > There was a great file posted here once (my players HATE it :-), I don't
> > know by who, but may have a look.
> >
Benjamin said:
> And have someone bring a portable sound player... "SURE you heard an
> AR run out of ammo... I didn't say it DID, though, did I?"

When I first read your idea I thought is was underhanded, sneaky and
cruel and I loved it! However, there is one problem
with it: I asked myself if I thought it would fool my players and the
answer was "no". The reason: anyone with a smartgun would know how much
ammo they had left in their clip/magazine. My Samurai players would suspect
a trap. How about having the NPC or sound player simulate a weapon
malfunction? Sounds of somebody cursing and working the action on a
weapon? Of course my players are so paranoid they probly wouldn't
even believe that!

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 7
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:53:02 -0400
Sambo wrote:
> When I first read your idea I thought is was underhanded, sneaky and
> cruel and I loved it! However, there is one problem
> with it: I asked myself if I thought it would fool my players and the
> answer was "no". The reason: anyone with a smartgun would know how much
> ammo they had left in their clip/magazine. My Samurai players would suspect
> a trap. How about having the NPC or sound player simulate a weapon
> malfunction? Sounds of somebody cursing and working the action on a
> weapon? Of course my players are so paranoid they probly wouldn't
> even believe that!

gun malfuntioning or stuff usually meant it was time to toss a grenade
or too (be it concussion, offensive, or smoke depended on how much a
nuisance the npcs had been) }:>

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:02:23 +0100
Sambo said on 14:19/13 Jun 96...

> When I first read your idea I thought is was underhanded, sneaky and
> cruel and I loved it! However, there is one problem with it: I asked
> myself if I thought it would fool my players and the answer was "no".
> The reason: anyone with a smartgun would know how much ammo they had
> left in their clip/magazine. My Samurai players would suspect a trap.
> How about having the NPC or sound player simulate a weapon malfunction?
> Sounds of somebody cursing and working the action on a weapon? Of
> course my players are so paranoid they probly wouldn't even believe
> that!

An alternative is to make clear to your players that the guards don't have
smartguns: let them look into the dot of a laser sight a few times (a la
Hollywood), which would be possible if the guard makes an aimed shot to
the head -- that has two advantages: whether he hits or misses, you can
tell the player about the laser sight, and if he hits the players could
very well be in trouble even before you do the empty gun trick.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:54:07 +0000
> An alternative is to make clear to your players that the guards don't have
> smartguns: let them look into the dot of a laser sight a few times (a la
> Hollywood), which would be possible if the guard makes an aimed shot to
> the head -- that has two advantages: whether he hits or misses, you can
> tell the player about the laser sight, and if he hits the players could
> very well be in trouble even before you do the empty gun trick.

Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:26:25 -0500
<snip part about faking running out of ammo with Assault Rifle>
One trick I read in an Eric Lustibader novel that I'm dying to have my character
(if I ever don't have to be GM) try: take a revolver (won't work on a
semiautomatic) that you've fired most of your shots from. Duck down behind
cover and manually rotate the barrel backwards a notch or two. Stick your head
back up and pull the trigger -- "Click, Click" Make a big point of being scared
as
the sam advances on you, say "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot" (obviously
bluffing), and then when he's about to slice you up with his spurs at point blank,
blow him away with the remaining rounds in your revolver (you've been aiming all
this while).

Of course, if he's the kind of samurai who would just open up with his uzi when
you run out of ammo, I don't recomend this trick.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:32:20 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
|<snip part about faking running out of ammo with Assault Rifle>
|One trick I read in an Eric Lustibader novel that I'm dying to have my
character |(if I ever don't have to be GM) try: take a revolver (won't
work on a |semiautomatic) that you've fired most of your shots from.
Duck down behind |cover and manually rotate the barrel backwards a
notch or two. Stick your head |back up and pull the trigger -- "Click,
Click" Make a big point of being scared as |the sam advances on you,
say "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot" (obviously |bluffing), and
then when he's about to slice you up with his spurs at point blank,
|blow him away with the remaining rounds in your revolver (you've been
aiming all |this while).

Saw movie once with an early appearance of Arnold Schwartzenhagger where he
played the character Handsome Stranger. It was a comedy/western. Anyway,
Handsome Stranger had a seven shot six-shooter so as to fool the bad guys.
Pretty silly, but it's an idea.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:12:29 -0400
Sambo wrote:
>
>
> > An alternative is to make clear to your players that the guards don't have
> > smartguns: let them look into the dot of a laser sight a few times (a la
> > Hollywood), which would be possible if the guard makes an aimed shot to
> > the head -- that has two advantages: whether he hits or misses, you can
> > tell the player about the laser sight, and if he hits the players could
> > very well be in trouble even before you do the empty gun trick.
>
> Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
>
and very blinding too...just reminding everyone that looking into a
laser sight causes permanent (I think) damage to the retina so unless
they have cybereyes...ouchie! great way to neutralize a mage :>
--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 13
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:13:40 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:02 6/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
[SNIP]
>
>An alternative is to make clear to your players that the guards don't have
>smartguns: let them look into the dot of a laser sight a few times (a la
>Hollywood), which would be possible if the guard makes an aimed shot to
>the head -- that has two advantages: whether he hits or misses, you can
>tell the player about the laser sight, and if he hits the players could
>very well be in trouble even before you do the empty gun trick.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl

Question. AFAIK its not good to look into a laser beam. Now is the laser on
a laser sight a low enoguh power not to do damage to a target's eye or would
the target get blinded for a second, or permenantly? Any of you Mil-Specs know?

Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
| What happens when they fight each other? |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (yet) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:46:18 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Mike Elkins wrote:

> <snip part about faking running out of ammo with Assault Rifle>
> One trick I read in an Eric Lustibader novel that I'm dying to have my character
> (if I ever don't have to be GM) try: take a revolver (won't work on a
> semiautomatic) that you've fired most of your shots from. Duck down behind
> cover and manually rotate the barrel backwards a notch or two. Stick your head
> back up and pull the trigger -- "Click, Click" Make a big point of being
scared as

Hm. We had a teammate who carried revolvers and was set up with
reflex recorders and an adrenal pump. He kept the first couple
of cylinders empty to keep himself from killing friends....

Tim Serpas Crime Test: 2. The harder I work, the less I
wretch@**.com have. The less I work, the more I have. I love
having everything, I'm just tired of cleaning
up all the time. Someone else should do all the
work and let me live in peace.
Message no. 15
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 18:28:39 +0000
> Saw movie once with an early appearance of Arnold Schwartzenhagger where he
> played the character Handsome Stranger. It was a comedy/western. Anyway,
> Handsome Stranger had a seven shot six-shooter so as to fool the bad guys.
> Pretty silly, but it's an idea.
>
> -David

Not silly at all, there have been several revolvers made that have had
anywhere from 7 to 9 chambers. These are mostly .22's of course.
But you can get custom cylinders for .38/.357 revolvers with an extra
chamber. I used to have a .22 mag revolver with 9 chambers.
Considering this round has the power of a .38, is a LOT more accurate
and has loads more penetration - this is a respectable amount of
firepower in a revolver.

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 16
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 11:16:47 +0100
Hairy Smurf said on 13:13/14 Jun 96...

> Question. AFAIK its not good to look into a laser beam. Now is the
> laser on a laser sight a low enoguh power not to do damage to a target's
> eye or would the target get blinded for a second, or permenantly? Any of
> you Mil-Specs know?

Laser sights are low-wattage lasers, generally only good for illuminating
the target with a dot so you can see where you're going to hit. Looking
straight into one can damage the eye, yes, but I think you have to do so
for a little while at least (not five minutes, but a few seconds perhaps).

A very "nice" effect of a laser shining into an eye is that it can burst
blood vessels. The result? The eye fills with blood, making its owner
see everything go red... Not a nice thought, really.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 11:16:47 +0100
Jeff Perrin said on 12:12/14 Jun 96...

> > Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
> >
> and very blinding too...just reminding everyone that looking into a
> laser sight causes permanent (I think) damage to the retina so unless
> they have cybereyes...ouchie! great way to neutralize a mage :>

I believe that kind of statement is called "threat inflation" :) AFAIK
you can be blinded by laser sights, but not every time and automatically
you get a laser shining into your eye.

It is, however, the reason why laser-protective goggles have been invented
for use by battlefield soldiers. Not that they realy help all that much,
because they tend to protect against only one frequency of light, but it's
a start.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:44:27 +0100
In message <199606132115.OAA29292@*****.csrv.uidaho.edu>, Sambo
<polan881@******.edu> writes
>Benjamin said:
>> And have someone bring a portable sound player... "SURE you heard an
>> AR run out of ammo... I didn't say it DID, though, did I?"
>
>When I first read your idea I thought is was underhanded, sneaky and
>cruel and I loved it! However, there is one problem
>with it: I asked myself if I thought it would fool my players and the
>answer was "no". The reason: anyone with a smartgun would know how much
>ammo they had left in their clip/magazine.

Even today, for CQB (close quarters battle) you're taught to change
magazines every six bursts. Reason: you keep bursts to 3-5 rounds even
when clearing houses/trenches/bunkers, and in the stress of battle it's
likely to be nearer five than three :) So you don't get many stoppages
from 'out of ammo'. (The part-used ones get dropped down the front of
your combat jacket, BTW, not thrown away, so you waste less ammo: CQB is
the final phase of a battle, you don't usually spend much time there,
it's too dangerous and unpredictable). With ammo counters in most
weapons, even in the backsights...

We always trained to use "Magazine!" or "Stoppage!": okay, if the
enemy
speaks English they know one person is out of action with rifle trouble
for a few seconds. But, you work in - at the least - skirmishing pairs.
While you change magazines, your buddy is covering you. Enemy comes up
to kill me while I reload, my buddy drills some 7.62mm holes in his
head.

Training, discipline and teamwork: on a battlefield it matters
enormously. IRL a typical shadowrun team of strangers would never
survive a disciplined, reasonably-led section attack.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:05:33 +0100
In message <199606150915.LAA02710@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>Hairy Smurf said on 13:13/14 Jun 96...
>
>> Question. AFAIK its not good to look into a laser beam. Now is the
>> laser on a laser sight a low enoguh power not to do damage to a target's
>> eye or would the target get blinded for a second, or permenantly? Any of
>> you Mil-Specs know?
>
>Laser sights are low-wattage lasers, generally only good for illuminating
>the target with a dot so you can see where you're going to hit. Looking
>straight into one can damage the eye, yes, but I think you have to do so
>for a little while at least (not five minutes, but a few seconds perhaps).

Not even that. Laser sights (as in the small aiming projectors) are
eyesafe, They have to be - how do you train them, how do you explain
blinded civilians (well, he was in the wrong area, and then he reached
into his jacket, sir, I thought he was going for a weapon...)

Effects vary, Non-eyesafe types mostly just produce minor retinal burns
- the nasty is you automatically look at the brightness, and burn out
the fovea of your eye. You can still see, but you can't percieve detail
sufficiently to read normal, do mechanical or especially electronic
repairs... or use a rifle's sights. More power, more damage: Total
blindness would also involve burning your face half off :)

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:06:52 +0000
In case mine doesn't quote automatically:

Paul J. Adams wrote:
> Even today, for CQB (close quarters battle) you're taught to change
> magazines every six bursts. Reason: you keep bursts to 3-5 rounds even
> when clearing houses/trenches/bunkers, and in the stress of battle it's
> likely to be nearer five than three :) So you don't get many stoppages
> from 'out of ammo'. (The part-used ones get dropped down the front of
> your combat jacket, BTW, not thrown away, so you waste less ammo: CQB is
> the final phase of a battle, you don't usually spend much time there,
> it's too dangerous and unpredictable). With ammo counters in most
> weapons, even in the backsights...

Where I come from it's called a "combat reload". However the number
of rounds you fire before reloading is certainly a major area of
controversy. Of course you're not going to do it if there are still
people shooting back at you and you still have rounds in the clip.
I was taught to wait till the immediate are is cleared, then do the
reload. Of course you don't want to expend all your rounds so the
bolt locks back, it's nice to have that one in the chamber if you
need it! Also, it seems to me that if you did drop the clip, then
made sure your new one was in, you could figure out where to put the
expended clip and not have to worry about handling a situation with a
weapon with only one round in it.

An example similar to this:
A cop was a frequent competitor in IPSC shooting competions, and in
these competitions there was a "brass bucket" that he would drop his
expended rounds into. Obviously he was using a revolver. Anyway,
this cop gets into a shootout, goes to do his reload, looks down for
his brass bucket and while trying to find it is shot by the
assailant. The lesson for this is: Always train for real life!
Of course, everyone has learned a different technique and I'm a firm
believer in sticking with what you've been taught. You get in less
trouble that way. Also I'd be interested to learn where you learned
your tactics? I was taught by someone from Gunsight, not Jeff Cooper
unfortunatly.

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 21
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:46:37 +0100
In message <199606151901.MAA02940@*****.csrv.uidaho.edu>, Sambo
<polan881@******.edu> writes
>Also, it seems to me that if you did drop the clip, then
>made sure your new one was in, you could figure out where to put the
>expended clip and not have to worry about handling a situation with a
>weapon with only one round in it.

A lot of European weapons - Browning Hi-Power, Glocks - have magazines
that don't fall free. Hit the release, pull it out and stash it, stuff
in the replacement. And it's amazing how fast you can shove an empty mag
down the front of your jacket :) But by the end of a section attack you
do clank when you run :)

Different attitudes. I've had a rifle that suddenly started giving
stoppages every other round, because of a damaged magazine. Drop it and
have it land on the lips, and you can have a lot of trouble with it
thereafter. Depends whether you're thinking ahead, or whether you expect
to live to reload it :) If it was seriously desperate, I'd throw the
damn thing at the enemy while I was grabbing the replacement :)

>Of course, everyone has learned a different technique and I'm a firm
>believer in sticking with what you've been taught. You get in less
>trouble that way. Also I'd be interested to learn where you learned
>your tactics? I was taught by someone from Gunsight, not Jeff Cooper
>unfortunatly.

British Army for rifle :) And some IPSC for pistol.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 22
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:40:44 -0600
Sparhawk wrote:
>
>Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
>

Sure. And revolvers are so nineteenth century. Next you'll be saying that street punks
aren't going to carry knives anymore.

Piatro
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:46:12 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 22:46/15 Jun 96...

> Different attitudes. I've had a rifle that suddenly started giving
> stoppages every other round, because of a damaged magazine. Drop it and
> have it land on the lips, and you can have a lot of trouble with it
> thereafter.

A more or less interesting bit of trivia: Israeli soldiers would use the
magazine lips for getting caps off bottles, and damaged the magazines
while doing so. To prevent similar feed problems as Paul was
experiencing, there's a bottle opener on the end of the bipod legs of
Galil rifles...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 24
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:33:07 +0000
> Sparhawk wrote:
> >
> >Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
> >
>
> Sure. And revolvers are so nineteenth century. Next you'll be saying that street
punks aren't going to carry knives anymore.
>
> Piatro

Nonsense, knives can come in very handy. I myself have quite a few
of them. My favorite is a Spyderco Endura, very nasty! Do they sell
those overseas? Just curious.

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 25
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 23:47:12 -0600
Sparhawk wrote:

>> Sparhawk wrote:
>> >
>> >Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
>> >
>>
>> Sure. And revolvers are so nineteenth century. Next you'll be saying=
that street punks aren't going to carry knives anymore.
>>
>> Piatro
>
>Nonsense, knives can come in very handy. I myself have quite a few
>of them. My favorite is a Spyderco Endura, very nasty! Do they sell
>those overseas? Just curious.
>

That's exactly my point. Effective technology will still be used, and used=
widely, even after it has become "obsolete." I agree that smartguns are=
more accurate than laser sights, but there is still a large market out=
there for them. The two largest groups would be the essence hoarding=
magical types and standard corprate goons. It is far more reasonable for a=
corp. to buy laser sighted guns and train goons to use them than to pay for=
smartguns and surgery for every giard. After all, we are talking about a=
TN difference of _1_.

Piatro
Message no. 26
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:04:15 GMT
> From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)

> >
> >Nonsense, knives can come in very handy. I myself have quite a few
> >of them. My favorite is a Spyderco Endura, very nasty! Do they sell
> >those overseas? Just curious.
> >
>
> That's exactly my point. Effective technology will still be used, and
> used widely, even after it has become "obsolete." I agree that
> smartguns are more accurate than laser sights, but there is sti

One of the reasons some folks today are using stuff years old, the
vital thing about a gun point blank is it goes off when the drug
dealer/terrorist etc pops into your sights before something very
nasty happens to you.

>
> Piatro
>
While answering can you try and do something about line length in
your posts i can read long lines, though they are not convenient but
as you can see above things get chopped eventually, if i'm having
problems some folks probably cannot read more than 80 characters of
any of your replies.

Mark
Message no. 27
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Peter wrote:

> Sparhawk wrote:
> >
> >Yeah, but laser sights are SO twentieth century:)
> >
>
> Sure. And revolvers are so nineteenth century. Next you'll be saying that street
punks aren't going to carry knives anymore.
>
> Piatro
>
>
>
Yes but a dikote coated fineblade would probably cut through a knights
armor like butter (in fact a dikote coated fineblade would cut through
just about anything like butter).

Stephen
Message no. 28
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:07:45 +0200
On 18.06.96, Stephen Delear wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)":
[knifes on streetpunks]
> Yes but a dikote coated fineblade would probably cut through a knights
> armor like butter (in fact a dikote coated fineblade would cut through
> just about anything like butter).
...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk, right.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 29
From: HALOWEEN JACK <sbc3kcb@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:58:28 GMT
> On 18.06.96, Stephen Delear wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low
Powered...)":
> [knifes on streetpunks]
> > Yes but a dikote coated fineblade would probably cut through a knights
> > armor like butter (in fact a dikote coated fineblade would cut through
> > just about anything like butter).

Sascha wrote:
> ...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk, right.

In FoF they say that the fineblade is already coated with a polymer
similar to dikoting it so that dicoating a fine blade woudn't offer
any advantages.

Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack
Message no. 30
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:07:10 +0200
On 18.06.96, HALOWEEN JACK wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)":
[knifes/fineblade/dikote]
> Sascha wrote:
> > ...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk, right.
>
> In FoF they say that the fineblade is already coated with a polymer
> similar to dikoting it so that dicoating a fine blade woudn't offer
> any advantages.
The FoF lists the Fineblade with 800 nuyen, the large fineblade with 1500
nuyen, Street Index both _3_, while the knife is at 30 (SI 0,75). I don't
know about your small-scale gangies and street punks, but in our campaign
a person who could spend 2,400 nuyen on weapons woul get a SMG, or an
automatic shotgun. And the 23 nuyen for the knife will be in there, too.
And lots of Ammo.

Know what I mean?

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 31
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:56:25 -0400
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> On 18.06.96, HALOWEEN JACK wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low
Powered...)":
> [knifes/fineblade/dikote]
> > Sascha wrote:
> > > ...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk, right.
> >
> > In FoF they say that the fineblade is already coated with a polymer
> > similar to dikoting it so that dicoating a fine blade woudn't offer
> > any advantages.
> The FoF lists the Fineblade with 800 nuyen, the large fineblade with 1500
> nuyen, Street Index both _3_, while the knife is at 30 (SI 0,75). I don't
> know about your small-scale gangies and street punks, but in our campaign
> a person who could spend 2,400 nuyen on weapons woul get a SMG, or an
> automatic shotgun. And the 23 nuyen for the knife will be in there, too.
> And lots of Ammo.

funny thing is that the GM of a game I was in made a mistake and had every punk in the bar

we were chilling at have katanas. Later he had 6 bikers riding side by side following us
in the barrens on a normal street (just so you know 6 bikes with one per lane is a fraggin

highway :)). It just wasnt his nite for by the fly decisions :).

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 32
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:37:52 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> On 18.06.96, Stephen Delear wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low
Powered...)":
> [knifes on streetpunks]
> > Yes but a dikote coated fineblade would probably cut through a knights
> > armor like butter (in fact a dikote coated fineblade would cut through
> > just about anything like butter).
> ...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk, right.
>
> Sascha

But if you happen to be in england armored knights takes on a whole new
meaning....

Stephen
>
> --
> +---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
> | / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
> | / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
> | \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
> |==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
> |LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
> +------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
>
>
>
Message no. 33
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:39:11 +0200
>>> Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
18/June/1996 06:07pm >>>
On 18.06.96, HALOWEEN JACK wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low
Powered...)":
[knifes/fineblade/dikote]
> Sascha wrote:
> > ...and are affordable by each and any gully dwar... err, gutterpunk,
right.
> > In FoF they say that the fineblade is already coated with a polymer >
similar to dikoting it so that dicoating a fine blade woudn't offer > any
advantages.
The FoF lists the Fineblade with 800 nuyen, the large fineblade with 1500
nuyen, Street Index both _3_, while the knife is at 30 (SI 0,75). I don't
know about your small-scale gangies and street punks, but in our
campaign a person who could spend 2,400 nuyen on weapons woul
get a SMG, or an automatic shotgun. And the 23 nuyen for the knife will
be in there, too.
And lots of Ammo.
Know what I mean?
Sascha

Yeah, but in our campaign it quite frequently pays off to have a excellent
melee weapon handy. Most of our Mr. Johnsons seem to prefer meeting
in very secure areas or high class bars/ restaurants where security is
tight and no-one enters with a firearm. Suddenly tasers and knives are
extremely important.
Marc Lipshitz
Message no. 34
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...) -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:46:50 +0200
On 20.06.96, Marc Lipshitz wrote about "Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...)
-Reply":
[knife prices and weapons]
> Yeah, but in our campaign it quite frequently pays off to have a excellent
> melee weapon handy. Most of our Mr. Johnsons seem to prefer meeting
> in very secure areas or high class bars/ restaurants where security is
> tight and no-one enters with a firearm. Suddenly tasers and knives are
> extremely important.
a) You will agree that this is no problem to a street punk, right?
b) I would expect to have a knife (a large one at least) striped from me
as a gun, MADs will detect 'em just fine, and they are dangerous
(I suppose you know that :-)
The discussion started with some statement like "why don't your streetpunks
don't use Dikote on their knifes?". And subtility isn't really what your
gangie is all about... no, not really :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Further Reading

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