Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: BrotherJustice50@***.com BrotherJustice50@***.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:31:52 EDT
Alright, after getting into a discussion with a player this week, I need some
clarification and some references if you all can. When casting a combat spell, not
elemental manipulation spells, you make a spell resistance test. If you achieve more
successes than the caster, the spell has no effect. But if you do not, then the spell
takes effect. Then is there a damage resistance test made? And even for the mana based
spells, this would be using Body correct? Or is it only the spell resistance test, then
just figure out the amout of damage you take with those successes?
Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:51:13 -0500
From: BrotherJustice50@***.com
:Alright, after getting into a discussion with a player this week, I need
some clarification and some references if you all can. When casting a combat
spell, not elemental manipulation spells, you make a spell resistance test.
If you achieve more successes than the caster, the spell has no effect. But
if you do not, then the spell takes effect. Then is there a damage
resistance test made? And even for the mana based spells, this would be
using Body correct?

For combat spells, there is not seperate damage resitance roll.

Or is it only the spell resistance test, then just figure out the amout of
damage you take with those successes?

That is correct.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:58:49 +0200
According to BrotherJustice50@***.com, at 11:31 on 15 May 00, the word on
the street was...

> Alright, after getting into a discussion with a player this week, I
> need some clarification and some references if you all can. When
> casting a combat spell, not elemental manipulation spells, you make a
> spell resistance test. If you achieve more successes than the caster,
> the spell has no effect. But if you do not, then the spell takes effect.

Yep.

> Then is there a damage resistance test made?

No. The target's test is a sort of combination spell resistance test and
damage resistance test.

> And even for the mana based spells, this would be using Body correct?

Recite like a mantra: Willpower is used against mana spells, Body against
physical ones :) Unless otherwise indicated, of course, like using
Intelligence to resist some illusion spells.

> Or is it only the spell resistance test, then just figure out the amout
> of damage you take with those successes?

Precisely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: BrotherJustice50@***.com BrotherJustice50@***.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:13:13 EDT
So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at a target with a Willpower of
6. Mage gets three successes. Target rolls Willpower and gets 2 successes. So, if the
target doesn't resist the spell, he/she will always take base damage. No way to reduce
that? Either all or nothing?
Message no. 5
From: Mathena, Timothy A. Tim.Mathena@************.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:27:02 -0700
> So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at
> a target with a Willpower of 6. Mage gets three successes.
> Target rolls Willpower and gets 2 successes. So, if the
> target doesn't resist the spell, he/she will always take base
> damage. No way to reduce that? Either all or nothing?
>

You are correct Sir!
Message no. 6
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:28:44 -0600
BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:
>So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at a target with
>a Willpower of 6. Mage gets three successes. Target rolls Willpower and
>gets 2 successes. So, if the target doesn't resist the spell, he/she will
>always take base damage. No way to reduce that? Either all or nothing?

Yes. The target in the above example failed to resist the spell.

Now I have a related question. Let's say the target didn't get any
successes. Are the mage's three successes used to stage the damage up to
Deadly?


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 7
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:37:31 GMT
Here goes...

Smoke - a mage - casts a force 4 manaball at M damage at two corp guards.
She rolls her socery of 5 and two spell pool againts their wilpower of 3
getting 3 successes. The guards then resist, rollong their willpower
against a TN of 4 (the spell's force). The first rolls 1 success, reducing
Smokes successes down to 2, this stages the damage of M up to S, he takes S.
The second guard rolls his willpower of 3 and gets all successes, reducing
Smokes successes to 0 so the spell has no effect. Smoke then rolls
willpower (or magic depending on which side of the GM screan I happen to
be).

If the spell had been (for example) Clout then his three successes would
have reduced Smokes successes to 0 and the spell would not have staged, so
the guard would have taken M damage.

Sorry if this seemed a little condecending, all unintentional :)>

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Mathena, Timothy A. Tim.Mathena@************.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:42:02 -0700
> Yes. The target in the above example failed to resist the spell.
>
> Now I have a related question. Let's say the target didn't get any
> successes. Are the mage's three successes used to stage the
> damage up to
> Deadly?
>

Yes it would stage it up to deadly if he did not make any resistance tests.
Message no. 9
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:45:14 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 15 May 2000 dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> Now I have a related question. Let's say the target didn't get any
> successes. Are the mage's three successes used to stage the damage up to
> Deadly?

Yes. Sucks to mundane, doesn't it?

Marc
Message no. 10
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:47:29 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Phil Smith wrote:

> Here goes...

[SNIP]

> The second guard rolls his willpower of 3 and gets all successes, reducing
> Smokes successes to 0 so the spell has no effect.

Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the attacker. In this
case, the target takes the base damage of the spell.

Marc
Message no. 11
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:57:43 GMT
>From: BrotherJustice50@***.com
>So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at a target with
>a Willpower of 6. Mage gets three successes. Target rolls Willpower and
>gets 2 successes. So, if the target doesn't resist the spell, he/she will
>always take base damage. No way to reduce that? Either all or nothing?

Thats about it; its a cruel world out there.

I've been reading up on this and if you want to avoid dangerous spells just
close your eyes; it'll just wash over you (joking) ;)>

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 12
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:28:33 GMT
>From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
> Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the attacker. In this
>case, the target takes the base damage of the spell.

(grumble grumble grumble)

*Phil tries to think of a house rule that makes Marc wrong*

Okay, you win this round...

How did you reply to this message so fast? I haven't even got to the
original yet?

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:27:32 -0600
Marc Renouf wrote:


>On Mon, 15 May 2000 dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>
> > Now I have a related question. Let's say the target didn't get any
> > successes. Are the mage's three successes used to stage the damage up to
> > Deadly?
>
> Yes. Sucks to mundane, doesn't it?

Yes it does. On the other hand, a mundane can fire a PAC without any fear
of drain (though the recoil may knock him on his ass ;)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 14
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:57:23 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Phil Smith wrote:

> (grumble grumble grumble)
>
> *Phil tries to think of a house rule that makes Marc wrong*

Don't worry, I think of enough house rules to make myself wrong
for the both of us. :)

> How did you reply to this message so fast? I haven't even got to the
> original yet?

<donning GridSec hat>
Well, ya see, it's like this: Sometimes the list server "saves" a
bundle of messages. These messages get delivered out of order, and
sometimes weeks after they're sent. Some select recipients receive the
message originally (I was apparently one of the people to receive yours),
but not everyone. It's pretty uncommon, but it happens occasionally, and
even the folks who wrote MailMan can't seem to figure out why. Rest
assured, however, that in a matter of days or weeks, the list will barf up
all the "held" copies of messages and you'll get it.
<doffing GridSec hat>

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.html.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 15
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:06:53 -0500
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>


:BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:
:>So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at a target with
:>a Willpower of 6. Mage gets three successes. Target rolls Willpower and
:>gets 2 successes. So, if the target doesn't resist the spell, he/she will
:>always take base damage. No way to reduce that? Either all or nothing?
:
:Yes. The target in the above example failed to resist the spell.
:
:Now I have a related question. Let's say the target didn't get any
:successes. Are the mage's three successes used to stage the damage up to
:Deadly?

Yes. The current SR3 erratta (which I just printed out form the PDF's
on Herkimers Lair) includes the line:
{begin quote}
*P. 183 - Spell effect
Add the following line to the end of the third paragraph.
"For any spells that damage the target, stage up the Damage Level for every
2 net successes."
{end quote}

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 16
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:22:35 +0900
On 5/16/00 3:47 AM, Marc Renouf at renouf@********.com wrote:

> Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the attacker. In this
> case, the target takes the base damage of the spell.
Wait a sec. On p. 183 of SR3:

If there is a Spell Resistance Test, the caster's successes are compared
to the successes generated by the target. If the target generated the same
number or more successes, the spell does not affect the target.
If the caster generates more successes, the spell has an effect.


Did I miss some errata somewhere or something? If so, my group's mage is
gonna be real happy the next time he's tossing powerballs at a go-gang. :)

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
That's okay, I've still got my guitar.
--Jimi Hendrix
Message no. 17
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:53:52 -0500
:> The second guard rolls his willpower of 3 and gets all successes,
reducing
:> Smokes successes to 0 so the spell has no effect.
:
: Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the attacker. In this
:case, the target takes the base damage of the spell.
:
:Marc

Spells are not attacks, per se, except for Damaging manipulations, so
that does not apply. It is specifically mentioned in ranged and melee
combat, but it doesn't really apply as a general rule- most opposed tests DO
require a net success.
In any case, as part of the spellcasting procedure, there is "Spell
Effect". P. 183 sr3, the second paragraph, says "If there is a spell
resitance test, the caster's successes are comapred to the successses
generated by the target. If the target generated the same number or more
successes, the spell does not affect the target." In other words, the
caster needs at least 1 net success- in the case given, the spell would NOT
damage the target.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:29:49 +0200
According to BrotherJustice50@***.com, at 14:13 on 15 May 00, the word on
the street was...

> So, a mage cast a Force 5 Manabolt (Serious Damage Level) at a target
> with a Willpower of 6. Mage gets three successes. Target rolls
> Willpower and gets 2 successes. So, if the target doesn't resist the
> spell, he/she will always take base damage. No way to reduce that?
> Either all or nothing?

In the situation you describe, the target would take Serious damage. Had
the target rolled 3 or more successes, though, _no_ damage would have been
taken at all. This is described in SR3 on page 183, under Spell Effect.

However, had the target had only one success against the caster's three,
the spell would have been staged up one level, and the target would take
Deadly damage from it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:29:49 +0200
According to Marc Renouf, at 14:47 on 15 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> > The second guard rolls his willpower of 3 and gets all successes, reducing
> > Smokes successes to 0 so the spell has no effect.
>
> Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the attacker. In this
> case, the target takes the base damage of the spell.

Not according to SR3 spellcasting rules. Ties between the caster and the
target go in favor of the target -- the spell from the example above has
no effect, as Phil mentions.

FWIW, I've always reversed that ruling so it's in line with damage from
firearms and other sources: equal number of successes = base damage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
--- Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
>
> :> The second guard rolls his willpower of 3 and
> gets all successes,
> reducing
> :> Smokes successes to 0 so the spell has no effect.
> :
> : Incorrect. A tie *always* goes in favor of the
> attacker. In this
> :case, the target takes the base damage of the
> spell.
> :
> :Marc

We always played that a tie goes to the PC so that way
the GM can scratch off another goon that they won't
have to worry about anymore. After all, the GM can
just decide that the PCs haven't taken enough
punishment and have another goon squad come around the corner...

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Message no. 21
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:22:02 -0500
:We always played that a tie goes to the PC so that way
:the GM can scratch off another goon that they won't
:have to worry about anymore. After all, the GM can
:just decide that the PCs haven't taken enough
:punishment and have another goon squad come around the corner...
:
:====:~Raveness

Well, that's not what the rules (even in SR2) say to do. Besides, any
mage who can't get 1 net success against goons deserves to make his own
resistance test- against a hail of lead!
It may not seem to make a big difference, but trust me, when playing a
mundane who ends up in 1 on 1 combat with a bloodmage, it does.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 22
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 06:26:00 -0700 (PDT)
--- Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
>
> :We always played that a tie goes to the PC so that
> way
> :the GM can scratch off another goon that they won't
> :have to worry about anymore. After all, the GM can
> :just decide that the PCs haven't taken enough
> :punishment and have another goon squad come around
> the corner...
> :
> :====> :~Raveness
>
> Well, that's not what the rules (even in SR2)
> say to do. Besides, any
> mage who can't get 1 net success against goons
> deserves to make his own
> resistance test- against a hail of lead!
> It may not seem to make a big difference, but
> trust me, when playing a
> mundane who ends up in 1 on 1 combat with a
> bloodmage, it does.
>
> Mongoose

How's the PC going to know anyway?

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Message no. 23
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: spellcasting question
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:22:32 -0500
from Mongoose(same damn re:)
>>Well that's not what the rules (even in SR2) say to do.<<

Thats some verbage the Cowboy coulda lived a long time without hearing
again.

Personally, Mongoose, old rodent, I always figured the rules where a
quiet lot who never
said a great deal of anything at all. Perhaps they just don't talk to me.

If a rule makes for a lousy game, ignore it or modify it. A game is a
great way to have a
good time. A rule should not be allowed to screw with a good time.

They don't talk, but they screw? Penguins don't come from next door...

(like a rhinestone)COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 24
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:03:19 -0500
<snip "ties mean failed spellcasting" discuassion>
:> It may not seem to make a big difference, but
:> trust me, when playing a
:> mundane who ends up in 1 on 1 combat with a
:> bloodmage, it does.

:How's the PC going to know anyway?
:~Raveness


I'm not sure I understand the question- do you mean "how does a PC know
they are in combat with a blood mage" or "how does the PC know they are
still alive instead of dead"? I think those are obvious. ;-)
If you mean "how does the PC know the rule makes a difference"- well,
they don't. They just live ot die. But the PLAYER generally notices, like
when the GM says "nope, yer still gonna die, want to use some more karma?"-
after he's already made 2 re-rolls and (due to enourmous luck) has gotten 5
successes on resisting the force 9 manabolt with is that just got rammed
down the characters throat with thier 6 willpower.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 25
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:07:13 +0300
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
But the PLAYER generally notices, like
> when the GM says "nope, yer still gonna die, want to use some more karma?"-
> after he's already made 2 re-rolls and (due to enourmous luck) has gotten 5
> successes on resisting the force 9 manabolt with is that just got rammed
> down the characters throat with thier 6 willpower.
>
> Mongoose
>
Shielding, man, shielding!

The loveliest word for our unawakened friends! :)

You just make sure the mage covering you stays alive! :)

And to use a handle on the GM rant about the mother having to roll a
natural 18 to have learned the killer manabolt in the first place! don't
you just hate Azzies? :)

In any case, if you had a willpower of 6 the TN of his spell would be a
hefty 6 all the way!
Say he had 20 dice on the spellcasting and 6 karma pool (three rerolls),
some 10 successes all round.
You burn five karma pool and frag the bastard! Take the pain and bite
the bullet! It's better than losing your character, though it sure hurts
karmawise! But think of the stories you can tell your grand children! :)

the wiz
Message no. 26
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Spellcasting Question
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:11:21 -0700 (PDT)
--- Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
> <snip "ties mean failed spellcasting" discuassion>
> :> It may not seem to make a big difference, but
> :> trust me, when playing a
> :> mundane who ends up in 1 on 1 combat with a
> :> bloodmage, it does.
>
> :How's the PC going to know anyway?
> :~Raveness
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand the question- do you
> mean "how does a PC know
> they are in combat with a blood mage" or "how does
> the PC know they are
> still alive instead of dead"? I think those are
> obvious. ;-)
> If you mean "how does the PC know the rule makes
> a difference"- well,
> they don't. They just live ot die. But the PLAYER
> generally notices, like
> when the GM says "nope, yer still gonna die, want to
> use some more karma?"-
> after he's already made 2 re-rolls and (due to
> enourmous luck) has gotten 5
> successes on resisting the force 9 manabolt with is
> that just got rammed
> down the characters throat with thier 6 willpower.
>
> Mongoose
I think too much was snipped in that... what I meant
was if you fudge the roll, how's the PC going to know
anyway...that's what the GM Screen is there for...they
can only tell how many dice you roll by how many dice
they hear hit the table...We definately use the screen
at our games because our rules lawyer is a bit of a
munchkin and has been known to try to see what page of
the manual the GM is open to so he can find out what
we're up against next and prepare for it.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Spellcasting Question, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!