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Message no. 1
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:43:50 -0500 (EST)
A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting down with my Raccoon
Shaman, who has no combat spells and tried to figure out how to make
her more useful in a fight, which is what the rest of the group seems
to actively seek out. :/

I discovered what appears to be a major loophole in spell
defense, and was wondering (hoping) if I'm interpreting the rules
incorrectly. We're currently experimenting with various house rules,
and generally ignoring the problems. Anyways, on with the problem:

So, it appears that as a Free action, I can declare spell
defense dice equal to Sorcery + Magic Pool. If I use these dice, they
are gone until the end of the turn. I like having 12 spell defense
dice instead of the 6 I had in SR2, but this causes serious problems.

1) If you use Sorcery dice, is your effective Sorcery skill reduced
for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
outside of spell defense.

2) Even if Sorcery dice do reduce your Sorcery for the remainder of
the turn, it seems that there is no penalty for allocating dice up to
your sorcery skill into spell defense at all times. If you have to
use those dice after your last action, there are no drawbacks.

Example: Assume all relevant stats are 6. I roll a 10 for
initiative.

On 10: I cast a force 6 Manaball at the enemy, throwing all 6
spell pool dice into drain. Everything is good so far. For my free
action, I declare 6 points of spell defense (sorcery + remaining spell
pool), reducing my effective Sorcery to 0 for the remainder of the
turn.
On the next round, I roll a 10 for initiative. If I have to
resist a spell before 10, then things work properly. I spend 4 spell
defense dice, leaving me with an effective Sorcery of 2 for the
remainder of the turn (or 6, depending on how you answer question 1).
However, on 10, I can do the same thing as last turn.
(Manaball, still have 6 dice for spell defense.) However, I my
effective Sorcery is still 6, since I haven't spent any Spell Defense
dice yet.

As you can see, it appears that I have 6 (Sorcery) "free"
spell defense dice between my last action and the end of the turn. Is
this really true as the rules stand, or is this a misinterpretation?
The problem gets even worse if you don't interpret the Sorcery dice as
lowering your effective Sorcery (IMHO, a valid interpretation). Then,
I have 6 "free" spell defense dice at all times.

Further brainstorming has come up with two house-rule
solutions. However, this is non-optimal. Ideally, I'd like to see
that our entire group has misinterpreted the rules, or an errata.

Current possible house rules under consideration:

1) You only get to allocate Magic Pool to spell defense, not
sorcery+magic pool.
2) Redistributing dice to spell defense is a simple action, not a
free action.

Mark
Message no. 2
From: David Woods david@*******.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 00:02:31 +0000
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting down with my Raccoon
> Shaman, who has no combat spells and tried to figure out how to make
> her more useful in a fight, which is what the rest of the group seems
> to actively seek out. :/
>
> I discovered what appears to be a major loophole in spell
> defense, and was wondering (hoping) if I'm interpreting the rules
> incorrectly. We're currently experimenting with various house rules,
> and generally ignoring the problems. Anyways, on with the problem:
>
> So, it appears that as a Free action, I can declare spell
> defense dice equal to Sorcery + Magic Pool. If I use these dice, they
> are gone until the end of the turn. I like having 12 spell defense
> dice instead of the 6 I had in SR2, but this causes serious problems.
>
> 1) If you use Sorcery dice, is your effective Sorcery skill reduced
> for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
> outside of spell defense.

Yes they do. Their used to cast spells. If you allocated all your
Sorcery
dice you wouldn't be able to cast spells at all.

> 2) Even if Sorcery dice do reduce your Sorcery for the remainder of
> the turn, it seems that there is no penalty for allocating dice up to
> your sorcery skill into spell defense at all times. If you have to
> use those dice after your last action, there are no drawbacks.

Except not casting spells. Imo this is a drawback for a Magicain....

> Example: Assume all relevant stats are 6. I roll a 10 for
> initiative.
>
> On 10: I cast a force 6 Manaball at the enemy, throwing all 6
> spell pool dice into drain. Everything is good so far. For my free
> action, I declare 6 points of spell defense (sorcery + remaining spell
> pool), reducing my effective Sorcery to 0 for the remainder of the
> turn.

No. You've already used your Sorcery dice this phase. The dice are
therefore unavailable for spell defence. If you had rolled 11 you could
allocate your Sorcery dice to spell defence then; at the expense of not
casting a spell that phase.

> On the next round, I roll a 10 for initiative.

If you had roll 11, you could have 6 spell defense dice at this stage.
Otherwise you would have any.

> If I have to
> resist a spell before 10, then things work properly. I spend 4 spell
> defense dice, leaving me with an effective Sorcery of 2 for the
> remainder of the turn

No. On your next action you can reallocate dice as you wish. You can
allocate no dice to spell defence and all to casting a spell is you
wish.

Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
desires.

> (or 6, depending on how you answer question 1).
> However, on 10, I can do the same thing as last turn.
> (Manaball, still have 6 dice for spell defense.) However, I my
> effective Sorcery is still 6, since I haven't spent any Spell Defense
> dice yet.
>
> As you can see, it appears that I have 6 (Sorcery) "free"
> spell defense dice between my last action and the end of the turn. Is
> this really true as the rules stand, or is this a misinterpretation?
> The problem gets even worse if you don't interpret the Sorcery dice as
> lowering your effective Sorcery (IMHO, a valid interpretation). Then,
> I have 6 "free" spell defense dice at all times.

No. I think your confusing SR3 with SR2. Force is no longer used to cast
spells. Sorcery dice are used for the spellcasting success test.

> Further brainstorming has come up with two house-rule
> solutions. However, this is non-optimal. Ideally, I'd like to see
> that our entire group has misinterpreted the rules, or an errata.

What about having another look at the rulebook?

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 3
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:13:04 +1100
At 12:02 4/03/99 +0000, David Woods wrote:
>Mark A Shieh wrote:
>> 1) If you use Sorcery dice, is your effective Sorcery skill reduced
>> for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
>> outside of spell defense.
>Yes they do. Their used to cast spells. If you allocated all your
>Sorcery
>dice you wouldn't be able to cast spells at all.

Or use Sorcery for astral combat, if relevant.

>No. On your next action you can reallocate dice as you wish. You can
>allocate no dice to spell defence and all to casting a spell is you
>wish.
>
>Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
>every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
>wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
>desires.

Yes. This is the balancing act that magicians must play in SR3. The magician
must allocate his Sorcery dice to one or more purposes on each of his actions.
The dice are fixed for those purposes until the magician's next action, at
which point the magician may re-allocate the dice to other purposes. Another
example is the astrally perceiving/projecting magician who's using Sorcery for
spell casting, spell defense and astral combat. If, on one action, he allocates
all of his Sorcery dice to spell-casting but is attacked before his next
action, he cannot defend with Sorcery, since all of the dice have been
allocated to spell-casting and none are left for combat. If he allocates all of
his Sorcery dice to astral combat, he has none left to allocate to spell
defence - until his next action.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 4
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:26:45 -0600
: A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting down with my Raccoon
:Shaman, who has no combat spells and tried to figure out how to make
:her more useful in a fight, which is what the rest of the group seems
:to actively seek out. :/
:
: I discovered what appears to be a major loophole in spell
:defense, and was wondering (hoping) if I'm interpreting the rules
:incorrectly. We're currently experimenting with various house rules,
:and generally ignoring the problems. Anyways, on with the problem:
:
: So, it appears that as a Free action, I can declare spell
:defense dice equal to Sorcery + Magic Pool. If I use these dice, they
:are gone until the end of the turn. I like having 12 spell defense
:dice instead of the 6 I had in SR2, but this causes serious problems.

You can only allocate defense you have dice avaibale for, and only
cover as many targets as sorcery dice allocated, but yes, it seems more
flexable (and more total dice may be availible for defense, especially at
one time).


Not that as a racoon shaman, the number of dice rolled for defense may
be affected by your totem modifier.

:1) If you use Sorcery dice, is your effective Sorcery skill reduced
:for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
:outside of spell defense.


Yes they do- they are used for spellcasting and dispelling, and are
not available for defense if used for that. Your sorcery dice can
genrally each be used once per ACTION.

:2) Even if Sorcery dice do reduce your Sorcery for the remainder of
:the turn, it seems that there is no penalty for allocating dice up to
:your sorcery skill into spell defense at all times. If you have to
:use those dice after your last action, there are no drawbacks.


Actually, your sorcery is "reduced" until your nect action- in any
case, allocating dice to defense means they weren't used for anyhting
else. So yes, a "default state" of constant and total defense doesn't
hurt- if the GM lets your character continuall;y maintain such defense.
Certainly, allocating sorcery to defense you will perform before your
action is a good idea, and doesn't hurt you any.

: Example: Assume all relevant stats are 6. I roll a 10 for
:initiative.
:
: On 10: I cast a force 6 Manaball at the enemy, throwing all 6
:spell pool dice into drain. Everything is good so far. For my free
:action, I declare 6 points of spell defense (sorcery + remaining spell
:pool), reducing my effective Sorcery to 0 for the remainder of the
:turn.

What diec did you use to cast the spell? You need some sorcey dice to
do that, so you won't have six for your defense.

: On the next round, I roll a 10 for initiative. If I have to
:resist a spell before 10, then things work properly. I spend 4 spell
:defense dice, leaving me with an effective Sorcery of 2 for the
:remainder of the turn (or 6, depending on how you answer question 1).


On your action, you would be able to use all six of your sorcery dice.
Its your spell pool dice that you only get once per turn.

: As you can see, it appears that I have 6 (Sorcery) "free"
:spell defense dice between my last action and the end of the turn. Is
:this really true as the rules stand, or is this a misinterpretation?


I think its a misinterpretation. They can only be used for defense if
they were not used for casting / dispelling.
:Current possible house rules under consideration:
:
:1) You only get to allocate Magic Pool to spell defense, not
:sorcery+magic pool.

I really like that you can use just as many dice for defense (sorcery
plus pool) as offense, and would not change that.

:2) Redistributing dice to spell defense is a simple action, not a
:free action.


Also pretty icky- although I guess you could MAINTAIN defense and cast
spells.

:Mark
:


I don't see the problem. Casting a spell chews up sorcery dice and
maybe spell pool dice. Thus (by definition) those dice were not allocated
to (and are not available as) spell defense dice. Sure, you might get a
load of defense if you haven't yet used sorcery (and spell pool) dice for
other things, but I don't see any "free" dice.

Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:23:11 -0600
> Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
> every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
> wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
> desires.

I think FASA dropped the ball on this one. It needs way more explaining.
I like the fact that sorcery is used in spellcasting now which puts it in
line with other Active skills such as Pistols. Now you're saying UNLIKE any
other skill, Sorcery now depletes itself as it's used? I think FASA could
have worded things much better or gave better examples. It's clear that
Pools refresh every Combat Turn, but skills?

Also, by your thinking, I could say that I can cast a spell in 19, then
allocate dice in 18. It's a new phase and I have a free action.

But the book states that; Once used, Spell Defense dice are lost until the
magician's next Combat Turn. So, if in 23 I use all of my Defense dice to
resist a spell, I can't Defend OR Cast a spell for the rest of the combat
turn!

This doesn't make sense though, I can cast a spell in 23, 13, & 3 but once I
defend, poof, that's it. I hope MITS changes things.

Last thing, Initiate Shielding <--how the hell does this work now? (or
Deflecting per Awakening for that matter)

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 6
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:53:44 -0500 (EST)
David Woods <david@*******.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> Mark A Shieh wrote:
[snip situation, I think people know what's going on]

> > for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
> > outside of spell defense.
>
> Yes they do. Their used to cast spells. If you allocated all your
> Sorcery dice you wouldn't be able to cast spells at all.

I'm stating that they don't seem to exist any more than
"Armed Combat" dice seem to exist. I can spend all of my Armed Combat
dice on my phase to attack, and they're still around to defend as many
times as I want, every phase I want. You don't allocate Armed Combat
"dice", you get dice equal to your skill for any Armed Combat test.
You don't allocate Sorcery "dice" to spellcasting, you get dice equal
to your skill for all Sorcery tests.

> > 2) Even if Sorcery dice do reduce your Sorcery for the remainder of
> > the turn, it seems that there is no penalty for allocating dice up to
> > your sorcery skill into spell defense at all times. If you have to
> > use those dice after your last action, there are no drawbacks.
>
> Except not casting spells. Imo this is a drawback for a Magicain....

That's okay. I'm done with spells for the turn, the phase
after I cast my spell.

> > Example: Assume all relevant stats are 6. I roll a 10 for
> > initiative.
> >
> > On 10: I cast a force 6 Manaball at the enemy, throwing all 6
> > spell pool dice into drain. Everything is good so far. For my free
> > action, I declare 6 points of spell defense (sorcery + remaining spell
> > pool), reducing my effective Sorcery to 0 for the remainder of the
> > turn.
>
> No. You've already used your Sorcery dice this phase. The dice are
> therefore unavailable for spell defence.

Why are sorcery dice only usable once per phase? Could you
point this out somewhere, or are you quoting a house rule? I can't
find any examples in the rules stating that I can only use my skill
dice once per turn. Firearms with a SA weapon, for example, lets me
use my Firearms skill twice per turn.

[responding to other post]
Also, does this mean that if I'm astrally projecting, and I
cast a spell (blowing my sorcery dice), I can't defend as well in
astral melee since my Sorcery dice are gone? I can't find *this*
anywhere.

Fine. I wait until 9 (a new phase) and declare spell defense.
I still see a problem.

> Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
[phase, action, it doesn't matter that much, but people disagree here]
> every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
> wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
> desires.

This is the cause of the problem. I'm only using sorcery for
the purposes of spellcasting once per initiative pass at best. I can
reallocate as a free action, so this seems to give me use the idle
phases for spell defense.

Keldon states it well. Where does it say that Sorcery
functions differently than other skills? You seem to be laying down
the line to prevent abuse (like any GM should do), not finding a more
permanent fix for SR that happens when you're not GMing.

> > As you can see, it appears that I have 6 (Sorcery) "free"
> > spell defense dice between my last action and the end of the turn. Is
> > this really true as the rules stand, or is this a misinterpretation?
> > The problem gets even worse if you don't interpret the Sorcery dice as
> > lowering your effective Sorcery (IMHO, a valid interpretation). Then,
> > I have 6 "free" spell defense dice at all times.
>
> No. I think your confusing SR3 with SR2. Force is no longer used to cast
> spells. Sorcery dice are used for the spellcasting success test.

I never claimed Force was used anywhere. I just claimed all
relevant stats were 6 for simplicity, so you may have assumed a force
6 spell when I was assuming force 6 sorcery. I'm pretty sure I have
things straight, and that it's not relevant to the discussion of spell
defense problems anyways.

> > Further brainstorming has come up with two house-rule
> > solutions. However, this is non-optimal. Ideally, I'd like to see
> > that our entire group has misinterpreted the rules, or an errata.
>
> What about having another look at the rulebook?

How about you? I couldn't find any references to what you're
talking about, perhaps you're the one who needs a look. I also don't
like the tone of voice you're starting to take here. Don't try to
take down me or my character a peg just because I found a loophole and
am trying to get it fixed. House ruling isn't satifactory, as I have
to bring it up with every GM I run into between now and 4th edition,
and explain it every time I get a new player.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:46:28 -0500
Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.edu> made my mailer see:
-> I'm stating that they don't seem to exist any more than
-> "Armed Combat" dice seem to exist. I can spend all of my Armed Combat
-> dice on my phase to attack, and they're still around to defend as many
-> times as I want, every phase I want. You don't allocate Armed Combat
-> "dice", you get dice equal to your skill for any Armed Combat test.
-> You don't allocate Sorcery "dice" to spellcasting, you get dice equal
-> to your skill for all Sorcery tests.

On the contrary. Here is the reference:

SR3/181/1/7
(SR3 page 181, column 1, paragraph 7)

Choose the spell or spells to be cast, the Force of the spell, how
many Spell Pool dice will be used, and whether the character is sustaining
or dropping any sustained spells. Choose the number of Sorcery dice
allocated to the spellcasting. Determine the radius of effect for area
spells.

SR3/183/2/3

Sorcery can be used to defend against the effects of spells as well
as cast them. To use Spell Defense, allocate Sorcery dice, plus any
Spell Pool dice desired, to defense. ...

SR3/183/2/6

Allocating Spell Defense dice is a Free Action. Once used, Spell
Defense dice are lost until the magician's next Combat Turn. Spell
Pool dice used in spell defense do not refresh until the next Combat
Turn.

It sounds to me that any dice that are allocated from the Sorcery dice
that are *USED* for Spell Defense are no longer available until the
next Combat Turn. However, it also sounds like one call reallocate
those dice to another purpose (like spellcasting) later in the same
turn.

It appears that the Sorcery dice are another pool. This pool refreshes
at the start of the next phase, except for dice that were *USED* for
Spell Defense.

If that supposition is true, I think it would be best spelled out in
the rules more clearly. There are lots of implications to it being a
pool, like the fact that if one uses all the Sorcery dice in a phase
to cast spells, one is not able to allocate any of the dice to Spell
Defense until the pool refreshes in the next phase.


--Scott
Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:50:41 -0500 (EST)
Scott Harrison <Scott_Harrison@*****.com> writes:
> Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.edu> made my mailer see:
> -> I'm stating that they don't seem to exist any more than
> -> "Armed Combat" dice seem to exist.

> On the contrary. Here is the reference:

Many thanks for the references. I had missed the first part
of allocating Sorcery dice to spellcasting, making me think of Sorcery
as just another skill. I had no idea how important unarmed combat is
to an astral mage until now.

> Allocating Spell Defense dice is a Free Action. Once used, Spell
> Defense dice are lost until the magician's next Combat Turn. Spell
> Pool dice used in spell defense do not refresh until the next Combat
> Turn.

> It sounds to me that any dice that are allocated from the Sorcery dice
> that are *USED* for Spell Defense are no longer available until the
> next Combat Turn. However, it also sounds like one call reallocate
> those dice to another purpose (like spellcasting) later in the same
> turn.

Yeah, our group got hung up on the word "used" the same way
you seem to be. It seems that you can allocate and unallocate dice
every phase, and they don't get locked in until they get used up for
resisting a spell, or spellcasting. Even if you can't, you could
unallocate them on phase 1 (0?), so they are available next turn.

> It appears that the Sorcery dice are another pool. This pool refreshes
> at the start of the next phase, except for dice that were *USED* for
> Spell Defense.

Actually, this implication doesn't seem clear to me. If it's
going to be treated as just another pool, it should refresh once per
combat turn, not once per phase.
OTOH, it's not explicitly stated as being a pool, as all of
the pools are listed in the pools section on p.43-44, with a caveat
for the Karma Pool.
It seems to me that Sorcery dice function in a pool-like
manner, but aren't strictly a pool. If this is true, then there are
no hard rules for the rate of refresh.

> If that supposition is true, I think it would be best spelled out in
> the rules more clearly. There are lots of implications to it being a
> pool, like the fact that if one uses all the Sorcery dice in a phase
> to cast spells, one is not able to allocate any of the dice to Spell
> Defense until the pool refreshes in the next phase.

And even if they have to wait one phase, it could still mean
that the Sorcery dice are refreshing often enough to provide free
spell defense between the last action in the turn and the beginning of
a turn, when pools refresh.
It also has implications for two mages duking it out in astral
space, if it refreshes once per action instead of once per phase.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: David Woods david@*******.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:20:41 +0000
Keldon Mor wrote:
>
> > Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
> > every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
> > wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
> > desires.
>
> I think FASA dropped the ball on this one. It needs way more explaining.
> I like the fact that sorcery is used in spellcasting now which puts it in
> line with other Active skills such as Pistols.

Agreed.

> Now you're saying UNLIKE any
> other skill, Sorcery now depletes itself as it's used? I think FASA could
> have worded things much better or gave better examples. It's clear that
> Pools refresh every Combat Turn, but skills?

Well, Sorcery is a most complexe skill. It can be used for Spellcasting,
Dispelling, Spelldefence and Astral Combat. The fact is that Sorcery is
one of the few (only?) skills that have more than one action associated
with it in a single phase. If you use Pistols you shot a pistol, there
is no reason to split your Pistol skill dice.

Imo FASA have not 'dropped the ball'. Imo this is completely consistant
with their overall design philosophy.

If you could do two things at once with a pistol you would (imo) split
your Pistols dice.

Example: Say a character was holding a pistol in each hand. The
character faces two opponents and has only one simple action left. He
asks the GM if he can target the two opponents with either gun (left for
left, right for right). The generous GM allows it. As well as all the
other penalties the character much also split his Pistols dice between
the targets.

> Also, by your thinking, I could say that I can cast a spell in 19, then
> allocate dice in 18. It's a new phase and I have a free action.

No your next Free action is on 9 in the next phase, not 18. This is
basic to the SR3 Phase and Turn system.

> But the book states that; Once used, Spell Defense dice are lost until the
> magician's next Combat Turn. So, if in 23 I use all of my Defense dice to
> resist a spell, I can't Defend OR Cast a spell for the rest of the combat
> turn!

You have a point.

However, examine the section.

"Once used, Spell Defense dice are lost until the magician's next Combat
Turn. Spell Pool dice used in spell defense do not refresh until the
next Combat Turn."

It seems clear the writer was focusing on dice from the Spell Pool. He
may not have been considering Sorcery Dice when he wrote this. An easy
mistake to
make. An easy mistake to miss in editting.

As (except in astral space), magicians generally only have one active
Phase per Turn, it's more than often true in any case.

> This doesn't make sense though, I can cast a spell in 23, 13, & 3 but once I
> defend, poof, that's it. I hope MITS changes things.

As I said, I don't think this is the author's intention (I await
correction).

As you point out, it's a highly anomalous situation and this is what
makes me believe it's an editting oversight.

> Last thing, Initiate Shielding <--how the hell does this work now? (or
> Deflecting per Awakening for that matter)

We'll have to wait until MitS.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 10
From: David Woods david@*******.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:04:03 +0000
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> David Woods <david@*******.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> > Mark A Shieh wrote:
> [snip situation, I think people know what's going on]
>
> > > for the remainder of the turn? Sorcery "dice" don't really exist
> > > outside of spell defense.
> >
> > Yes they do. Their used to cast spells. If you allocated all your
> > Sorcery dice you wouldn't be able to cast spells at all.
>
> I'm stating that they don't seem to exist any more than
> "Armed Combat" dice seem to exist. I can spend all of my Armed Combat
> dice on my phase to attack, and they're still around to defend as many
> times as I want, every phase I want. You don't allocate Armed Combat
> "dice", you get dice equal to your skill for any Armed Combat test.
> You don't allocate Sorcery "dice" to spellcasting, you get dice equal
> to your skill for all Sorcery tests.

Page 181 SR3 - Preparation

"Choose the number of of Sorcery dice allocated to the spellcasting."

Page 183 SR3 - Spell Defence

"To use Spell Defence, allocate Sorcery dice,"

> > > 2) Even if Sorcery dice do reduce your Sorcery for the remainder of
> > > the turn, it seems that there is no penalty for allocating dice up to
> > > your sorcery skill into spell defense at all times. If you have to
> > > use those dice after your last action, there are no drawbacks.
> >
> > Except not casting spells. Imo this is a drawback for a Magicain....
>
> That's okay. I'm done with spells for the turn, the phase
> after I cast my spell.

You can reallocate dice on *your* next phase. In the above example you
don't have another active phase that turn.

> > > Example: Assume all relevant stats are 6. I roll a 10 for
> > > initiative.
> > >
> > > On 10: I cast a force 6 Manaball at the enemy, throwing all 6
> > > spell pool dice into drain. Everything is good so far. For my free
> > > action, I declare 6 points of spell defense (sorcery + remaining spell
> > > pool), reducing my effective Sorcery to 0 for the remainder of the
> > > turn.
> >
> > No. You've already used your Sorcery dice this phase. The dice are
> > therefore unavailable for spell defence.
>
> Why are sorcery dice only usable once per phase?

Game Balance? This after all was what you were complaining about.

However, imo Astral combat is a seperate matter and the full Sorcery
skill is always used.

> Could you
> point this out somewhere, or are you quoting a house rule?

Both the Spellcasting and Spell Defense sections talk about allocation
of Sorcery dice. Imo it's very clear what the author intended.

> I can't
> find any examples in the rules stating that I can only use my skill
> dice once per turn.

I never claimed 'once per turn'. I'm talking about the allocation of
Sorcery dice one per active *phase*.

> Firearms with a SA weapon, for example, lets me
> use my Firearms skill twice per turn.

That FASA choose to use a slightly different system for Spellcasting
than mundane skills, shouldn't be a surprise. The fact is the Sorcery
section continually refers to the Magician allocating his Sorcery dice.

> [responding to other post]
> Also, does this mean that if I'm astrally projecting, and I
> cast a spell (blowing my sorcery dice), I can't defend as well in
> astral melee since my Sorcery dice are gone? I can't find *this*
> anywhere.

Well, imo Astral combat should be treated as 'normal' melee combat. The
allocation of dice should only be in referance to controlling 'external'
Mana, rather than your own Astral Form.

> Fine. I wait until 9 (a new phase) and declare spell defense.
> I still see a problem.
>
> > Iirc your Sorcery 'pool' refreshes every phase, your Magic Pool refreshs
> [phase, action, it doesn't matter that much, but people disagree here]

Phase is more technically correct. Using the correct terms is important
in these discussions to avoid confusion.

> > every turn. So each phase you can allocate your Sorcery dice as you
> > wish. This allows a Magicain to balance offense and defense as he
> > desires.
>
> This is the cause of the problem. I'm only using sorcery for
> the purposes of spellcasting once per initiative pass at best. I can
> reallocate as a free action, so this seems to give me use the idle
> phases for spell defense.

But you only have a Free Action on your next active Phase. You have no
'idle' phases, unless you choose not to act.

Example: You roll 32 for Init. You have 6 Magic Pool and 6 Sorcery.
Opponent A roll 21 and opponent B roll 9 Init.

TURN 1

Phase 1:

On 32 you allocate 6 Magic Pool dice to SD. And cast a spell using 6
dice from Sorcery.

On 21 A cast a spell at you and you resist with all 6 dice in your SD.

On 9 you are attacked by a spell from B. You have used all your
allocated SD dice this phase and so have no SD dice left.

There are no more actions this phase so you subtract 10 from your Init
and start the new phase.

Phase 2:

On 22 you have no more Magic Pool (It refreshes next turn), but you
allocate 3 Sorcery Dice to SD. You use the remaining 3 dice to cast a
spell.

On 11 you are attacked by a spell for A. You resist with your 3 SD dice.

There are no more actions this phase so you subtract 10 from your Init
and start the new phase.

Phase 3

On 22 you allocate all Sorcery dice to SD, giving you a SD pool of 6.

On 1 opponent A casts a spell and you resist with all dice.

There are no more actions this phase so you subtract 10 from your Init
and start the new phase.

Phase 4

On 2 you use all you Sorcery dice to cast a spell. You have no SD dice.

There are no more phases this turn.

TURN 2

You roll 30 on your Init.
Apponent B rolls 32 Init.

On 32, B cast a spell and you have no SD dice to resist. You die.

> Keldon states it well. Where does it say that Sorcery
> functions differently than other skills?

The section on Magic...

> You seem to be laying down
> the line to prevent abuse (like any GM should do), not finding a more
> permanent fix for SR that happens when you're not GMing.

Imo this is the way the authors untended it to be played. No rulebook is
going to be 100% clear. It's the GM's job to interpret not just the
letter of the rules, but divine the intention. He does this be taking
the rules as a whole and seeing how it can all fit together.

Often this means that you have to 'best fit' the rules.

The way I interpret it works very well. If you find a 'better fit'
please say.

> > > Further brainstorming has come up with two house-rule
> > > solutions. However, this is non-optimal. Ideally, I'd like to see
> > > that our entire group has misinterpreted the rules, or an errata.
> >
> > What about having another look at the rulebook?
>
> How about you? I couldn't find any references to what you're
> talking about, perhaps you're the one who needs a look. I also don't
> like the tone of voice you're starting to take here. Don't try to
> take down me or my character a peg just because I found a loophole and
> am trying to get it fixed. House ruling isn't satifactory, as I have
> to bring it up with every GM I run into between now and 4th edition,
> and explain it every time I get a new player.

Sorry if my tone offended you. However, imo the referances to
'allocating sorcery dice' in both the Spellcasting and Spell Defence
section are very clear in implication. I personally can't see how you
could reasonably interpret it in any other way.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 11
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:32:08 -0500 (EST)
David Woods <david@*******.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> Keldon Mor wrote:
> > Now you're saying UNLIKE any
> > other skill, Sorcery now depletes itself as it's used?
>
> The fact is that Sorcery is
> one of the few (only?) skills that have more than one action associated
> with it in a single phase. If you use Pistols you shot a pistol, there
> is no reason to split your Pistol skill dice.
>
> Imo FASA have not 'dropped the ball'. Imo this is completely consistant
> with their overall design philosophy.
>
> If you could do two things at once with a pistol you would (imo) split
> your Pistols dice.

[as explanation for my confusion]
I thought you got to use both at full skill, splitting combat
pool between the two. You would take a +2 penalty, listed under
"Using a second firearm".
Same thing with melee... If you get attacked by two opponents
on the same phase, it would appear that you get to conterattack at
full skill on both attempts. The penalty for this would be the
"friends in melee bonus" that they get and the corresponding penalty,
as well as splitting combat pool.
As a result, I had assumed that the same thing applied to
Sorcery.

> > Also, by your thinking, I could say that I can cast a spell in 19, then
> > allocate dice in 18. It's a new phase and I have a free action.
>
> No your next Free action is on 9 in the next phase, not 18. This is
> basic to the SR3 Phase and Turn system.

Here, I have to take issue. It seems that you can take a Free
action any and every phase after your first action. (p. 104, section
3A) The only apparent restriction on free actions is the inability to
take any action until your first active phase comes up.

If you only get a free action on phases where you get a
complex/2 simple actions (active phases), then the rest of your
reasoning holds and I have to agree.

> > Last thing, Initiate Shielding <--how the hell does this work now? (or
> > Deflecting per Awakening for that matter)
>
> We'll have to wait until MitS.

Yep. All PC mages have been hoarding karma for this.

Mark

PS- A big thanks to everyone who's helped so far! I think the
interpretation of having Sorcery dice refresh once per action seems
like the best solution that is closest to vanilla rules.

PPS- Would there be any way to get an official ruling on how often
Sorcery dice get to refresh? Once per turn, like the other pools,
seems the most consistent, but generally limits spells to one
effective spell per turn regardless of the number of available
actions. However, once per action seems the most appropriate.
Message no. 12
From: David Woods david@*******.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:28:07 +0000
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> David Woods <david@*******.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> > Keldon Mor wrote:
> > > Now you're saying UNLIKE any
> > > other skill, Sorcery now depletes itself as it's used?
> >
> > The fact is that Sorcery is
> > one of the few (only?) skills that have more than one action associated
> > with it in a single phase. If you use Pistols you shot a pistol, there
> > is no reason to split your Pistol skill dice.
> >
> > Imo FASA have not 'dropped the ball'. Imo this is completely consistant
> > with their overall design philosophy.
> >
> > If you could do two things at once with a pistol you would (imo) split
> > your Pistols dice.
>
> [as explanation for my confusion]
> I thought you got to use both at full skill, splitting combat
> pool between the two. You would take a +2 penalty, listed under
> "Using a second firearm".

Imo you calulate one success test with the 'second firearm' modifiers.
Then the Target may try to dodge using Combat Pool. The net successes
are applied to both weapons damage codes and then the Target must resist
both weapons damage.

Example: Sammy fires at Geek with a heavy pistol (9M) and a light (6L).
Sammy rolls his Pistol + Combat Pool and scores 4 successes. Geek rolls
2 successes on his Dodge giving Sammy 2 net successes. Geek must now
resist a 9S and a 6M wound.

However, this is my personal take. The canon is not clear (afaik) on how
two weapon use is resolved.

> Same thing with melee... If you get attacked by two opponents
> on the same phase, it would appear that you get to conterattack at
> full skill on both attempts.

I agree.

> The penalty for this would be the
> "friends in melee bonus" that they get and the corresponding penalty,
> as well as splitting combat pool.
> As a result, I had assumed that the same thing applied to
> Sorcery.

Imo it does in Astral Combat, but not Spell Casting or Defense.

As I imagine it, Spells and Spell Defense are manipulation the external
Mana. When a magician enters Astral Combat, this is not the same 'type'
of use as casting a Spell or Defending against one.

Imo Sorcery indicates the magician's control over his Astral Form. It
should be treated exactly like Armed/Unarmed Combat on the physical
plane.

If Sorcery Dice were expended in Astral Combat this would be very
strange.

> > > Also, by your thinking, I could say that I can cast a spell in 19, then
> > > allocate dice in 18. It's a new phase and I have a free action.
> >
> > No your next Free action is on 9 in the next phase, not 18. This is
> > basic to the SR3 Phase and Turn system.
>
> Here, I have to take issue. It seems that you can take a Free
> action any and every phase after your first action. (p. 104, section
> 3A) The only apparent restriction on free actions is the inability to
> take any action until your first active phase comes up.

Opps. Your right of course.

However, imo you still can't allocate dice from your Sorcery that you
had used in your last action; although you could redistrubute SD dice
you had remaining.

> If you only get a free action on phases where you get a
> complex/2 simple actions (active phases), then the rest of your
> reasoning holds and I have to agree.

The Free Action in everyones phase is (imo) a way slow characters can do
*something* while the WRIII sammies hit the fast-forward button. It's
not there to have a huge combat effect, as SD dice refreshing would.

I'm player of a Magician with no Cyber and no Inc. Reflex spell. Being
able to at least look round shout things at my fellows releaves *some*
of the boredom.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 13
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:11:22 -0600
>But you only have a Free Action on your next active Phase. You have no
>'idle' phases, unless you choose not to act.
>
>Example: You roll 32 for Init. You have 6 Magic Pool and 6 Sorcery.
>Opponent A roll 21 and opponent B roll 9 Init.
>
>TURN 1
>
>Phase 1:
>


You might want to take a look at Page 104; The Combat Phase. I think you're
confusing terms. There's Combat Turns, PASSES, and Phases (in that order)
and you can take Free Actions during anyone else's Combat Phase (as long as
it's after your first action for the combat turn).

I agree that hopefully it's was an error or misjudgment that dice once used
permanently reduce your Sorcery skill for the Combat Turn. But if it was an
error, couldn't they have just added another pool? Spell Defense Pool Sorcery Skill.

Perhaps it's worded exactly how they wanted and Initiates will get a break?
Eventually, well find out.... Everyone, start chanting MITS MITS MITS, maybe
they'll hear...

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 14
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Spell Defense (was SR3... SpellCasting (and Game Balance))
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:58:23 -0600
On another note, while we are discussing Spell Defense. It states that you
can only protect chummers within X-distance. Do you have to be able to see
them? This was the case in SR2 but it was only line of sight. Do you have to
see them when you allocate the Defense dice then they can be where ever?

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon

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