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Message no. 1
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:25:23 -0400
I have a difference of opinon with my group about Clarvoyance &
Claraudience. both spells allow a sense to be used to sense a distance
scene as if physically present.

The question came up does this allow the target of the spell to see thru
barriers. For physical barriers I would say no. For Astral barriers I would
just change the target number of the spell. Xray vision IMHO since it has a
hirer drain code allows someone to see thru barriers.

I believe the reason the group thinks the other way is they view the spell
as wizard eye in D&D. They just move the point of view thru the door. They
also use the arguement that detect spell can see past barriers just by
adjusting the target number per the table in SR3 pg 192. They then say xray
vision has an enhanced drain because it allows spells to be cast thru it
while Clar... spells do not.

How does your group use it?

-
Lorden
Message no. 2
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:39:54 -0400
At 01:25 PM 10-7-98 -0400, you wrote:

>The question came up does this allow the target of the spell to see thru
>barriers. For physical barriers I would say no. For Astral barriers I would
>just change the target number of the spell. Xray vision IMHO since it has a
>hirer drain code allows someone to see thru barriers.

<snip>

>How does your group use it?
>
>Lorden

I have to say that I'd agree with your players on this call. The spell
says that any place within spell range may be viewed, and physical barriers
don't stop magic. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that a purely
physical barrier doesn't add ANY target modifiers to the spell. After all,
you're casting the spell on the subject, not on the area being viewed.

Astral barriers would function as per normal, increasing the difficulty of
perception tests through the barrier. Not the TN of the spell; remember,
the spell is cast on the subject, not the place being viewed.

The X-ray Vision spell gives LOS, which is an immense advantage to a
magician. Besides which, I'd expect it to be revised in MitS based on the
new rules for barriers and magic.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 3
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:13:53 -0400
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 westln@***.EDU wrote:

->I have a difference of opinon with my group about Clarvoyance &
->Claraudience. both spells allow a sense to be used to sense a distance
->scene as if physically present.
->
->The question came up does this allow the target of the spell to see thru
->barriers. For physical barriers I would say no. For Astral barriers I would
->just change the target number of the spell. Xray vision IMHO since it has a
->hirer drain code allows someone to see thru barriers.
->
->I believe the reason the group thinks the other way is they view the spell
->as wizard eye in D&D. They just move the point of view thru the door. They
->also use the arguement that detect spell can see past barriers just by
->adjusting the target number per the table in SR3 pg 192. They then say xray
->vision has an enhanced drain because it allows spells to be cast thru it
->while Clar... spells do not.
->
->How does your group use it?

Clairvoyance allows a mage to see from a point that the mage knows
exists. Range to this point must be within the range of the spell
(determined by successes & Magic Rating). The mage can see the entire
3x360 degree area around that point, but cannot move it. In order to
change POV the mage has to recast the spell. You use the same rules for
clairaudience.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 4
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:47:07 EDT
In a message dated 10/7/98 12:18:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
westln@***.EDU writes:

> I have a difference of opinon with my group about Clarvoyance &
> Claraudience. both spells allow a sense to be used to sense a distance
> scene as if physically present.

True, and the range of the spells in both cases happen to be line of sight
also.

> The question came up does this allow the target of the spell to see thru
> barriers. For physical barriers I would say no. For Astral barriers I would
> just change the target number of the spell. Xray vision IMHO since it has a
> hirer drain code allows someone to see thru barriers.

The one thing about barriers is this.
1. When casting the spell into an spot, and there is some form of magical
barrier in the way, yes the target number to cast the spell is also affected,
raised by some amount depending on each barrier.

2. For those barriers which obstruct vision or hearing, they work normally
against the mage making it harder to hear or see something within the area of
effect of the spell.

3. Once a spell has been cast into the area, the one thing that happens
now is that one thing must be kept in mind. If the area the mage is listening
/ seeing into is not within their line of sight (for instance, a mage sees a T
street intersection, there is a building that stretches out in front of them
and there are a pair of buildings to his/her right and left which obstruct the
view of the entire building) then they would not be able to see or hear within
that area of effect.
Getting back to the example in the parenthesis. The mage could cast
Clairvoyance onto the outside of the building in front of him/her and see
within it, however, the mage could not see in the areas which are blocked out
by the buildings on either side of the street in front of him or her.

> I believe the reason the group thinks the other way is they view the spell
> as wizard eye in D&D. They just move the point of view thru the door. They
> also use the arguement that detect spell can see past barriers just by
> adjusting the target number per the table in SR3 pg 192. They then say xray
> vision has an enhanced drain because it allows spells to be cast thru it
> while Clar... spells do not.

The Clairvoyance and Clairaudience spells allow a person to see of hear
anything within the area of effect, and once cast onto an area it won't move
(unless cast onto something that moves like a vehicle or person which does
move, then the spell also moves with the person or vehicle.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 5
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:03:22 -0400
>At 01:25 PM 10-7-98 -0400, you wrote:
>I have to say that I'd agree with your players on this call. The spell
>says that any place within spell range may be viewed, and physical barriers
>don't stop magic. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that a purely
>physical barrier doesn't add ANY target modifiers to the spell. After all,
>you're casting the spell on the subject, not on the area being viewed.
>
A couple of nit picking points,

"The subject can hear/see distant sounds/scenes as if physically present
to the range of the new sense." I see distant as implying at a distance but
still within view. The spell doesn't say observe everything within the area
of the spell.

The second paragraph under Detection spells SR3 pg 192. "The new sense is
normally directional (like normal sight)." If the sense is really an area
detect spell then the target number modifiers do apply is basically what
the next couple of sentences say.

I'm drawing a line of distinction between a "new sense" verses an "area
detect".
Something that is usually glossed over. Much the same way the hypersence
and gereral hypersense is in SR2.

I also was under the general impression you cannot cast magic at places you
cannot see. ( Yes there are exceptions like area detects and elemental
effects hitting people out of line of sight. Yet the target point for the
elemental effect must still be within view. Hence the approach I took of
the point of view you want must be within your line of sight but you can
see anything that could be seen from that new spot.) This actually depends
on how you believe the spell works. I by default took the approach that the
spell is present at both the location you want to view from and the person
the spell is cast on. Ie it ties those two places together together as far
as your senses go. This way a mage at the target location has a chance to
notice he is being spied on. Something I find usefull for game balance.

You could take the approach that the spell creates a magical sense organ
for the person it is cast on. But in which case why wouldn't environmental
effects like line of sight and others things effect the observations with
the new organ. Astral line of site is effected by such things. So why
wouldn't a magical sense that ties into the astral plane also be effected.

Going back to SR2 descriptions clarvoyance/audience are both hypersense
spells not general hypersense spells. SR2 pg 152. The difference being that
"hypersense spells are good against one target within the Limited range of
the spell. A general hypersense spell touches on all targets within the
Limited range." Also it's only general hypersense spells that get the
target modifiers to see targets out of line of sight. Reading the spell
design rules in GR pg 117 tends to support that you still need LOS for a
hypersense but you don't need LOS for a general hypersense.

>Astral barriers would function as per normal, increasing the difficulty of
>perception tests through the barrier. Not the TN of the spell; remember,
>the spell is cast on the subject, not the place being viewed.

If the spell is only on the subject why would a purely astral barrier
stop/hinder the effect unless the magic has to extend to the point you
want to observe from.

>
>The X-ray Vision spell gives LOS, which is an immense advantage to a
>magician. Besides which, I'd expect it to be revised in MitS based on the
>new rules for barriers and magic.

Your right Xray does meet the LOS requirement and allows the person to see
through inanimate barriers. Infact it specifically says so. It also says it
cannot see thru magical or living barriers. Because it mentions it
specifically and claraudience/voyance both do not I am inclined to say that
the clar... spells don't work thru barriers.
>
>Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare

And your right that MitS will undoubtly change all this.

-
Lorden
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:58:49 EDT
In a message dated 10/7/1998 12:18:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
westln@***.EDU writes:

>
> How does your group use it?
>
I snipped the variable ways of considering Clairvoyance/Clairaudience magic.
I really hate to say this, but Clairiance magic in general does allow for
sight beyond given distances/obstacles, as long as those obstacles are not
magical in nature.

-K
Message no. 7
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 23:44:37 -0400
At 04:03 PM 10-7-98 -0400, you wrote:

> "The subject can hear/see distant sounds/scenes as if physically present
>to the range of the new sense." I see distant as implying at a distance but
>still within view. The spell doesn't say observe everything within the area
>of the spell.

What you read into the spell is up to you, but I'm reading what it says.
It says the subject can view any area withing range and it doesn't say it's
limited to what the subject can already see.

>The second paragraph under Detection spells SR3 pg 192. "The new sense is
>normally directional (like normal sight)." If the sense is really an area
>detect spell then the target number modifiers do apply is basically what
>the next couple of sentences say.

This has absolutely no bearing on your argument one way or the other.
Clairvoyance is a sense, not an area detection. However, the "point of
perception" (to use a Champions term) can be any point within the spell's
range.

<snip>

>I also was under the general impression you cannot cast magic at places you
>cannot see. ( Yes there are exceptions like area detects and elemental
>effects hitting people out of line of sight. Yet the target point for the
>elemental effect must still be within view. Hence the approach I took of
>the point of view you want must be within your line of sight but you can
>see anything that could be seen from that new spot.) This actually depends
>on how you believe the spell works. I by default took the approach that the
>spell is present at both the location you want to view from and the person
>the spell is cast on. Ie it ties those two places together together as far
>as your senses go. This way a mage at the target location has a chance to
>notice he is being spied on. Something I find usefull for game balance.

Again, you cast the spell on the subject of the spell, not the location you
want to look at. The spell then gives the subject the ability to magically
perceive from any point within the spell's range. Astral barriers block
magic, physical ones do not.

>You could take the approach that the spell creates a magical sense organ
>for the person it is cast on. But in which case why wouldn't environmental
>effects like line of sight and others things effect the observations with
>the new organ. Astral line of site is effected by such things. So why
>wouldn't a magical sense that ties into the astral plane also be effected.

I take that approach because that's the way it works. And the sense isn't
limited by LOS because it's *different*, that's why. Clairvoyance is not
regular sight or astral perception. It's a magical perception of places
other than where the person is. By definition, that's what it is to be
clairvoyant.

>Going back to SR2 descriptions clarvoyance/audience are both hypersense
>spells not general hypersense spells. SR2 pg 152. The difference being that
>"hypersense spells are good against one target within the Limited range of
>the spell. A general hypersense spell touches on all targets within the
>Limited range." Also it's only general hypersense spells that get the
>target modifiers to see targets out of line of sight. Reading the spell
>design rules in GR pg 117 tends to support that you still need LOS for a
>hypersense but you don't need LOS for a general hypersense.

Wrong. Hypersense spells work on a specific person expanding the reach of
that person's sensorium, general hypersense spells gather information from
the environment. *That's* why they work differently. You do need LOS for
the hypersense spell, TO CAST IT ON THE SUBJECT. Those spells are cast on
the perceiver, not the perceived. Once the spell's been cast, however, LOS
no longer limits the perceiver's new sense. Yes, it's directional, but
that's different from being LOS-limited.

>>Astral barriers would function as per normal, increasing the difficulty of
>>perception tests through the barrier. Not the TN of the spell; remember,
>>the spell is cast on the subject, not the place being viewed.
>
>If the spell is only on the subject why would a purely astral barrier
>stop/hinder the effect unless the magic has to extend to the point you
>want to observe from.

Because astral barriers always block magic. Yes, magical energy must reach
the point I want to see, and a physical barrier can't stop that, anymore
than it can stop a spirit from walking through the wall. However, I'm not
casting the spell at the point, so I don't have to see it to make the aural
synchronization. I only have to see the thing I want the spell to affect,
and that is the subject of the spell.

>Your right Xray does meet the LOS requirement and allows the person to see
>through inanimate barriers. Infact it specifically says so. It also says it
>cannot see thru magical or living barriers. Because it mentions it
>specifically and claraudience/voyance both do not I am inclined to say that
>the clar... spells don't work thru barriers.

Incorrect. The Clairvoyance spell specifically says that it does not
provide LOS for spellcasting purposes. That is universes away from saying
that it requires LOS to function.

>Lorden


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:50:42 +0200
According to Fixer, at 15:13 on 7 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Clairvoyance allows a mage to see from a point that the mage knows
> exists. Range to this point must be within the range of the spell
> (determined by successes & Magic Rating). The mage can see the entire
> 3x360 degree area around that point, but cannot move it. In order to
> change POV the mage has to recast the spell. You use the same rules for
> clairaudience.

In my game, Clairvoyance moves the magician's point of view to any desired
place and direction within the area of effect, as if the magician's head
were at that location. That means you're limited to the normal field of
view of about 180 degrees, but I allow it to be moved when the spell is
sustained.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Love don't live here anymore.
She had to move out when Cobain shot himself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:38:06 -0400
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:

->According to Fixer, at 15:13 on 7 Oct 98, the word on the street was...
->
->> Clairvoyance allows a mage to see from a point that the mage knows
->> exists. Range to this point must be within the range of the spell
->> (determined by successes & Magic Rating). The mage can see the entire
->> 3x360 degree area around that point, but cannot move it. In order to
->> change POV the mage has to recast the spell. You use the same rules for
->> clairaudience.
->
->In my game, Clairvoyance moves the magician's point of view to any desired
->place and direction within the area of effect, as if the magician's head
->were at that location. That means you're limited to the normal field of
->view of about 180 degrees, but I allow it to be moved when the spell is
->sustained.

You're nicer than I am to your players too... I also limit their
field of vision, but they can turn it to all directions. In order to get
a new POV in my games, they have to recast the spell. Considering the
Drain Level is M and I doubt beginning Forces will be above 6, resisting a
3M with 5 Willpower dice is fairly easy. I have to make it slightly
difficult for them.... otherwise it's not a challenge.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:22:58 EDT
It has been said:

>I believe the reason the group thinks the other way is they view the spell
>as wizard eye in D&D. They just move the point of view thru the door. They
>also use the arguement that detect spell can see past barriers just by
>adjusting the target number per the table in SR3 pg 192. They then say
> xray
>vision has an enhanced drain because it allows spells to be cast thru it
>while Clar... spells do not.

I would have to disagree since SR3 states...

SPELL TARGETING pg 181 (In referance to LOS for casting)

"Metahuman Vision abilities can also enhance line of sight, but not spells
like Clairvoyance or ANY OTHER SPELLS WHICH ALTER VISION."

-Bandit
Message no. 11
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:11:24 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1998 8:27:25 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> You're nicer than I am to your players too... I also limit their
> field of vision, but they can turn it to all directions. In order to get
> a new POV in my games, they have to recast the spell. Considering the
> Drain Level is M and I doubt beginning Forces will be above 6, resisting a
> 3M with 5 Willpower dice is fairly easy. I have to make it slightly
> difficult for them.... otherwise it's not a challenge.

A suggestion if I may. How about additional sorcery tests with a target equal
to the force of the spell itself. The number of successes on these tests is
multiplied times the magic attribute of the spell caster, with the end result
being the number of total degrees (X, Y, Z axis) that the caster can change
perception during any complex action (remembering that actively studying an
area is a complex action here)???

-K
Message no. 12
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spell definitions
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:22:59 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1998 11:27:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
ElBandit@***.COM writes:

> I would have to disagree since SR3 states...
>
> SPELL TARGETING pg 181 (In referance to LOS for casting)
>
> "Metahuman Vision abilities can also enhance line of sight, but not spells
> like Clairvoyance or ANY OTHER SPELLS WHICH ALTER VISION."
>
> -Bandit
>
Uhm, Bandit, the trick is that we aren't altering the vision of the person,
but the Field of Vision available to the user. Very, VERY, important
difference here. One method augments/alters the person directly, while the
other puts something before the person and applies the changes to the field of
vision (like fiber optics or binoculars).

-K

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