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Message no. 1
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:02:49 -0800
Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.

Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell work
on the same person?

-Toffer

Chris Davidson
CSRC Analist DWS
"Don't just do something...stand there!"
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:10:50 -0500
<SNIP two reflexes spells>
>Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell
>work on the same person?

The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
karma however) :)
I believe it says this somewhere in the rule book, but I don't
have it handy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 3
From: Thanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:16:50 -0500
><SNIP two reflexes spells>
>>Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell
>>work on the same person?
>
>The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
>rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
>karma however) :)
>I believe it says this somewhere in the rule book, but I don't
>have it handy.

Also, as a side note, spell locks don't exist in SR3.

Thanatos
Message no. 4
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:18:53 -0600
Davidson, Chris wrote:

> Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
> phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
> additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
> increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
> to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.
>
> Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell work
> on the same person?

According to the book he is plum out of luck.

>
>
> -Toffer

Grimlakin
Message no. 5
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:17:39 -0800
> The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
> rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
> karma however) :)
> I believe it says this somewhere in the rule book, but I don't
> have it handy.
>
I chuckled about the having him spend the karma
first thing for a couple of minutes...funny.

That only applies to the 2 spell lock issue,
correct?

-Toffer
Message no. 6
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:22:12 -0800
> Also, as a side note, spell locks don't exist in SR3.
>
They don't? We're still playing SR2 rules until
MitS comes out, but I haven't read about there not
being any spell locks in SR3. What happens to
them?

-Toffer
Message no. 7
From: "Shaun E. Gilroy" <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:32:10 -0500
At 10:17 AM 1/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
>> rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
>> karma however) :)
>> I believe it says this somewhere in the rule book, but I don't
>> have it handy.
>>
>I chuckled about the having him spend the karma
>first thing for a couple of minutes...funny.
>
>That only applies to the 2 spell lock issue,
>correct?

Initiative boosts are -not- cumulative. So if the character has the physad
ability and the spell lock, he can -either- use the spell lock dice -or-
the ability dice, but they cannot be used in conjuction to speed his
initiative higher than two aditional dice.

That applies to all forms of initiative boosts, including cyber.

>
>-Toffer
>
>
Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:33:39 -0500
>They don't? We're still playing SR2 rules until
>MitS comes out, but I haven't read about there not
>being any spell locks in SR3. What happens to
>them?

Spell locks are now sustaining spell foci. (A spell lock becomes
a rating 3 sustaining spell foci usually). There is no more
grounding, and basically the foci just removes the penalty for
sustaining the spell. This is all covered in the Magic chapter of
SR3, and other stuff appears in the converting SR2 characters
stuff in the back of the book.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 9
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:26 EST
In a message dated 1/18/99 1:07:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM writes:

> Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
> phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
> additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
> increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
> to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.
>
> Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell work
> on the same person?

You really have three questions here: (1) Can a Physad Bond a Foci? (2) Does
Increased Init 2 add to the Adept ability? and (3) Would 2 spell locks of the
same spell work on the same person?

Question 1: According to SR2 (as I lack SR3) (page 137 - under Bonding
A Foci) "A magician must pay karma to bond a foci...". That's all that Ican
find
about it. I allow my phyads to bond weapon foci's - but they must do it with
the
mage who created the weapon there with them (to act as a guide - or whatever).
I allow any PhyAds who can see Astrally (either the adept power or the edge
from
the Companion) to bond weapon foci without assistance of a mage - I'd do the
same
with "Spell Sustaining Foci". If they don't have the ability to see astrally,
then they
have no more hold over the astral energy than does an Essence 6 person.

Question 2: No. The only Init. giving piece of gear/spell that adds is
Synaptic Accl.
and Move by Wire. Everything else takes players choice or gm's choice.

Question 3: I don't think so, but I've been wrong before.

hope it helped.
andy
Message no. 10
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:40:09 EST
In a message dated 1/18/99 1:14:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

> <SNIP two reflexes spells>
> >Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell
> >work on the same person?
>
> The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
> rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
> karma however) :)


What do you want to do... start a riot b/c one player does not know
the rules! That's harsh and not good GMing. (note: if this guy is just try
to screw over the GM, don't charge him for it and then not allow it to
work - just get him out of your game).

On a side note: Spell Sustaining Foci no longer bond Individual Spells; but
Spell Types. So, he no longer bonds a Inc. Init 2 at force 4; he bonds Heath
Spell at force 4, and then assigns that it is Inc. Init 2. New spells of the
same
type are switched out at the player's whim.

at least that's how I read the SR3 magic rules.

andy mathews
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:46:02 +0100
According to Davidson, Chris, at 10:02 on 18 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
> phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
> additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
> increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
> to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.

It's common to use the (somewhat unofficial) ruling that only the highest
dice boost applies -- in this case, both are equal so it doesn't matter
which one you use. Had it been a spell lock for Increased Reflexes +3D6,
the physad would have gotten +3D6 dice, not +5D6, for example.

> "Don't just do something...stand there!"

Oddly appropriate to a question about initiative dice... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:46:02 +0100
According to Davidson, Chris, at 10:22 on 18 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Also, as a side note, spell locks don't exist in SR3.
> >
> They don't? We're still playing SR2 rules until
> MitS comes out, but I haven't read about there not
> being any spell locks in SR3. What happens to
> them?

They've magically become sustaining spell foci -- much the same concept,
but a different way of doing things. SSF are also a bit more powerful than
spell locks, due to them being able to have a Force rating higher than 1 --
but then again, you need to have a SSF of a Force equal to that of the
spell you want it to "lock" (to use the SRII term) so it's a necessity.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: barbie@********.DE
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:43:55 +0100
"Davidson, Chris" wrote:
>
> Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
> phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
> additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
> increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
> to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.

Well, a spell lock that is not bound to its normal user, is unbound
and the locked spell is gone, so you can't find a spell in a spell lock.
You just can find the empty spell lock. So, nope.
>
> Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell work
> on the same person?
>

Nope

--Barbie
Message no. 14
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:50:58 -0800
> Initiative boosts are -not- cumulative. So if the character has the physad
> ability and the spell lock, he can -either- use the spell lock dice -or-
> the ability dice, but they cannot be used in conjuction to speed his
> initiative higher than two aditional dice.
>
That cleared it up, except for one issue. I know
that the rules specifically say that they can't
be used with Boosted Reflexes or Wired Reflexes,
but if the character doesn't have either of those,
or move by wire, can a cybered person still use
it?

-Toffer
Message no. 15
From: Theard8159@***.COM
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:52:21 EST
Are these discussions available on a web site? What I mean is, rather than
getting each one by e-mail, is there a place where someone can log on and
scroll through what has been said?
Message no. 16
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:36:50 -0500
>That cleared it up, except for one issue. I know
>that the rules specifically say that they can't
>be used with Boosted Reflexes or Wired Reflexes,
>but if the character doesn't have either of those,
>or move by wire, can a cybered person still use
>it?

A cybered person can use a spell lock(sustaining spell foci)
without a problem. He just needs a magician to bind it to him and
cast the spell. It just isn't cumulative with cyberware reflex
enhancements.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:17:35 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Andy Mathews wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 1/18/99 1:14:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
/ DeckerL@******.COM writes:
/
/ > <SNIP two reflexes spells>
/ > >Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell
/ > >work on the same person?
/ >
/ > The short answer is no. You can't stack them, only the highest
/ > rating applies. (Have him find this out only after he spends the
/ > karma however) :)
/
/ What do you want to do... start a riot b/c one player does not know
/ the rules! That's harsh and not good GMing.

How so? Does the physad in question know anything about foci? If the
physad bonds the foci without doing any research than it's his own
fault.

However, since I'm a nice GM I would tell the player that the physad
can't bond the foci since he (the physad) doesn't know how and that he
needs to do his homework first. Hopefully during the course of this
the player (and the physad) will realize that the foci won't work for
him the way he wants it to. If he goes through with it then it will
teach the player and/or the physad a much needed lesson (be careful
when spending karma).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 18
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:36 -0600
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:02:49 -0800 "Davidson, Chris"
<Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM> writes:
>Here's a question for you magic experts. I have a player who had a
>phys adept with the increased reflexes power, so he's getting an
>additional 2 dice for init. He just found a spell lock that was also
>increased reflexes 2. He wanted to use a karma point and bond that
>to him. I'm not sure if that would work or not.
>
>Same question as, would 2 spell locks of the same exact spell work
>on the same person?

Page 125, SR2: "The only magical focus of any use to a physical adept is
a weapon foci."

Page 138, SR2: "A magician can create the lock then give it to another
magician of the same tradition (shamanic or hermetic) for placement and
activation. Anyone can, theoretically, place the spell lock, but only
another magician of the proper tradition can activate it."

Okay, the above means that the physical adept in question cannot,
himself, bond and activate the spell lock. Another magician of the same
tradition as the one who created the spell lock can, however. (Sorry
Barbie, I didn't find anything about the spell lock losing the spell.)
As far as I can tell, the astral thread would lead back to original
creator. For game balance, if you allow the above to be the case, I
would reccomend saying that at the time of the creator's demise, the
spell lock becomes undone.

Page 154, SR2, under Increase Attribute spell description: "Note that
this spell does not stack on top of other increase attribute spells of
the same type. When cast on characters with an already magically boosted
attribute (such as a physical adept), the target number is increased by
+4."

Okay, this is a really oddly worded passage. I take this passage to
mean, despite the last sentence, that you can't stack magical
enchantments of the same type and that it applies to all spells, not just
Increase Attribute.

Why don't I take it at face value?
<rules lawyer>
Because according to the rules, I can stack Increase Cybered Attribute +1
with Increase Cybered Attribute +2, Increase Cybered Attribute +3,
Increase Cybered Attribute +4, the physical adept power, Improved
Physical Attribute, AND Muscle Augmentation 4. For a total of up to 23
Strength and Quickness (the bonus was calculated for a human. Metahuman
totals will vary.).
</rules lawyer>

Ick. I *thought* you couldn't get a 20+ stat in shadowrun ... well, you
*shouldn't* be able to. You can't in SR3 (to the best of my knowledge.)
:)

However, the point is, I can't find anything (in the BBB2, I haven't
searched through the Grimoire or Awakenings.) that explicitly says you
can't stack two spells of the same type, but I wouldn't reccomend
allowing it ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)
___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:49:44 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ Toffer wrote:
/
/ >They don't? We're still playing SR2 rules until
/ >MitS comes out, but I haven't read about there not
/ >being any spell locks in SR3. What happens to
/ >them?
/
/ Spell locks are now sustaining spell foci. (A spell lock becomes
/ a rating 3 sustaining spell foci usually). There is no more
/ grounding, and basically the foci just removes the penalty for
/ sustaining the spell. This is all covered in the Magic chapter of
/ SR3, and other stuff appears in the converting SR2 characters
/ stuff in the back of the book.

Just to add a bit more. With an SR2 spell lock you could turn the lock
off and on. With an SR3 Sustaining Spell Foci, you have to cast the
spell on the foci (at which point the foci kicks in and sustains the
spell for the caster).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 20
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:03:49 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:53 PM 1/18/99 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>Ick. I *thought* you couldn't get a 20+ stat in shadowrun ... well,
you
>*shouldn't* be able to. You can't in SR3 (to the best of my
knowledge.)
>:)

Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
certainly up there.

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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 21
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:20:21 -0600
> If he goes through with it then it will
> teach the player and/or the physad a much needed lesson (be careful
> when spending karma).

Personally, I side with the opinion that if you spend Karma, you should get
something for your Karma. (Besides...does the physad actually know what
karma is? I say no). Karma is a game mechanic used by the player. If
anything, the character may know about Karma (the mechanic) in the most
abstract of terms.


-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 22
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:20:19 -0600
> On a side note: Spell Sustaining Foci no longer bond Individual
> Spells; but
> Spell Types. So, he no longer bonds a Inc. Init 2 at force 4; he
> bonds Heath
> Spell at force 4, and then assigns that it is Inc. Init 2. New
> spells of the
> same
> type are switched out at the player's whim.
>
> at least that's how I read the SR3 magic rules.

That's not how I read them. "The owner specifies the /spell/ the focus will
sustain when it is bonded. It will only sustain that /specific/ spell." (The
emphasis is mine).

Basically, the way I read it is...You can lock (say) Combat Sense or
Increase Reflexes +3. It doesn't matter what force you cast it at, as long
as it's less than the force of the SSF. You can cast it again and again and
again without rebonding. If you want to switch between Combat Sense or
Increase Reflexes +3 or Increase Strength, you have to recast, and rebond
the focus. Sorry, but the description doesn't say anything about Spell Type.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 23
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:20:22 -0600
> spell foci -- much the same concept,
> but a different way of doing things. SSF are also a bit more powerful than
> spell locks, due to them being able to have a Force rating higher
> than 1 --
> but then again, you need to have a SSF of a Force equal to that of the
> spell you want it to "lock" (to use the SRII term) so it's a necessity.

Actually 'being able to have a Force rating higher than 1' really isn't much
of an advantage anymore, now that grounding is gone. Paying for those high
force SSF's can get expensive!

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 24
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:28:06 EST
In a message dated 1/18/1999 1:27:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM writes:

>
> > Also, as a side note, spell locks don't exist in SR3.
> >
> They don't? We're still playing SR2 rules until
> MitS comes out, but I haven't read about there not
> being any spell locks in SR3. What happens to
> them?

A word of advice. *When* MitS does come out, you may heavily/seriously want
to consider switching full heartedly over to SR3 magic rules/guidelines. It
will probably be a lot easier.

-K
Message no. 25
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:24:47 -0600
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:03:49 -0500 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 02:53 PM 1/18/99 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>>Ick. I *thought* you couldn't get a 20+ stat in shadowrun ... well, you
>>*shouldn't* be able to. You can't in SR3 (to the best of my
knowledge.)
>>:)

>Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
>with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
>certainly up there.

Well, actually, now that you mentioned it ... I did figure you out that
using a deltagrade cybertorso, you could get a troll with a deltagrade
cyberarm with something like a 60 strength ... maybe higher, I forget.
(And don't want to remember ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 26
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:38:58 -0500
At 05:03 PM 1/18/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>
>Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
>with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
>certainly up there.

Well, a starting troll character can have a natural max Body of 11. A
starting troll physad can supplement that with up to six levels of
Increased Attribute or Boost Attribute, reaching 17. Initiation,
increasing the Magic Attribute, allows for more.

On top of that, you can get specialized bonuses like Rapid Healing. For a
starting troll physad with all Magic points invested, you could have a
general Body stat of 17 and be rolling 23 dice for healing tests. This
will allow the character in question to heal Light wounds in a matter of
hours, and Moderate wounds in less than a day on average.

Invest a bucket-load of Karma, and a troll's Body can max out at 17, with
physad bonuses on top of that. So, a troll physad, Grade 2 initiate and
Magic attribute of 8, with a maxxed-out natural attribute of 17 and 8
levels of Increased Body Attribute would have a Body of 25.

Oh, and don't forget the extra dice from the natural dermal armor for
damage tests... ;)


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 27
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:40:21 -0600
K in the Shadows wrote:

> A word of advice. *When* MitS does come out, you may heavily/seriously want
> to consider switching full heartedly over to SR3 magic rules/guidelines. It
> will probably be a lot easier.

You do mean IF Mits comes out don't you. I am starting to have my doubts as to
it ever makeing it past the development stages. Published in the back of fifty
different source books.

>
>
> -K

Grimlakin
Message no. 28
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:45:44 EST
In a message dated 1/18/1999 8:41:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

>
> You do mean IF Mits comes out don't you. I am starting to have my doubts
as
> to
> it ever makeing it past the development stages. Published in the back of
> fifty
> different source books.

Oh it *IS* coming, at least up to this, here and now, point in time, it is
still coming.

-K
Message no. 29
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:43:17 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:24 PM 1/18/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
>>Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
>>with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
>>certainly up there.
>
>Well, actually, now that you mentioned it ... I did figure you out
that
>using a deltagrade cybertorso, you could get a troll with a
deltagrade
>cyberarm with something like a 60 strength ... maybe higher, I
forget.
>(And don't want to remember ... ;)

Bah. What GM lets a starting player have deltagrade? (I want to know,
so we can foist off all our munchkin players on him.) After I wrote
the above, I went to the book and figured it out for myself.

Troll. Assign 6 points to Body. Add the troll racial bonus of +5 to
Body, bringing it up to 11. PhysAdept. Improved Physical Attribute:
Body (.5/level); the first three power points spent add +6 to Body,
taking the Troll to the Racial Attribute Maximum of 17. After that,
the cost of Improved Physical Attribute is a whole power point per
level. Spending the last three power points brings the troll up to a
body of 20. (And remember, since this is a troll, there's that natural
point of dermal armor, adding another point of body for those damage
resistance tests.)

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 30
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:04:17 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:38 PM 1/18/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
>>Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
>>with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
>>certainly up there.
>
>Well, a starting troll character can have a natural max Body of 11.
A
>starting troll physad can supplement that with up to six levels of
>Increased Attribute or Boost Attribute, reaching 17. Initiation,
>increasing the Magic Attribute, allows for more.

Actually, by the latest rulings out of FASA, a starting troll can get
nine levels of Increased Attribute. Here's the word from FASA's errata
guy, Rob Boyle, as posted to the list a week back:

>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:17:24 -0600
>From: sprites in the machine <sprite@***.COM>
>Subject: Re: Latest SR3 Errata? (Q for ROB)
>
>> That seems even MORE clearly in favor of my interpretation- you
can
>>exceed racial adjusted limit for the usual cost, and go over the max
for 1
>>point per level. Why would there NEED to be any limit besides magic
>>rating?
>
>Mongoose is correct in his interpretation. The cost for Improved
Physical
>Attributes is .5/level up to your Racial Attribute Maximum. Above
that, it's
>1/level.
>
>The Racial Modified Limit doesn't come into play for Improved
Physical
>Attribute costs.
>
>Hope that helps.
>Rob Boyle

Essentally, you go by the chart on p.245 of BBB3. The cutoff number
that you're looking for is the Racial Attribute Maximum, which is the
number in parenthesis. When rasing an attribute up to that number,
it's just .5 power points per level. It only goes up to 1 power point
per level when you take it above the number in the parenthesis.

Enjoy!

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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 31
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:37:08 -0500
At 10:04 PM 1/18/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>>
>>Well, a starting troll character can have a natural max Body of 11.
>A
>>starting troll physad can supplement that with up to six levels of
>>Increased Attribute or Boost Attribute, reaching 17. Initiation,
>>increasing the Magic Attribute, allows for more.
>
>Actually, by the latest rulings out of FASA, a starting troll can get
>nine levels of Increased Attribute. Here's the word from FASA's errata
>guy, Rob Boyle, as posted to the list a week back:

<snip errata>

>Essentally, you go by the chart on p.245 of BBB3. The cutoff number
>that you're looking for is the Racial Attribute Maximum, which is the
>number in parenthesis. When rasing an attribute up to that number,
>it's just .5 power points per level. It only goes up to 1 power point
>per level when you take it above the number in the parenthesis.
>
>Enjoy!

Except that the SR3 physad rules explicitly state that you can't have more
levels in an adept ability than your Magic rating. A starting physad has
Magic 6, so he can only have up to six levels in any one ability.
Installing cyber reduces Magic, and therefore the number of levels you can
have. You forgot to factor that in when making your various posts.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 32
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:44:43 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:37 PM 1/18/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
>Except that the SR3 physad rules explicitly state that you can't have
more
>levels in an adept ability than your Magic rating. A starting physad
has
>Magic 6, so he can only have up to six levels in any one ability.
>Installing cyber reduces Magic, and therefore the number of levels
you can
>have. You forgot to factor that in when making your various posts.

Argh. I knew I was forgetting something. :(

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 33
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:43:29 -0600
:Actually, by the latest rulings out of FASA, a starting troll can get
:nine levels of Increased Attribute. Here's the word from FASA's errata
:guy, Rob Boyle, as posted to the list a week back:


Nope. Magic Rating limits the level of any adpet power. Your "Body +9"
improved physical attributte power is 3 over that limit.
The max level of any single adept power is equal to the adepts magic
rating- one of my FAVE SR3
additions. So you'll have to spend those other 3 Power Points elsewhere
(or get cyber, whic drops Power points, but that drops magic...).
No starting troll could do what you suggested. In fact, no SR3 only
character can have more than 6 magic anyhow, so no adept will get more
than +6 to any stat (from adept powers alone), and getting cyber will make
that number lower.


Mongoose
Message no. 34
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:10:43 -0800
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:38:58 -0500, Starjammer wrote:

>On top of that, you can get specialized bonuses like Rapid Healing. For a
>starting troll physad with all Magic points invested, you could have a
>general Body stat of 17 and be rolling 23 dice for healing tests. This
>will allow the character in question to heal Light wounds in a matter of
>hours, and Moderate wounds in less than a day on average.

Unless you follow the rules as stated in SR3, page 127 (gray chart at the bottom of the
page). Reproduced here for clarity:

Healing Table

Damage Level Base Time Min Time
Deadly 30 days 3 days
Serious 20 days 2 days
Moderate 10 days 1 day
light 24 hours 2 hours

As you can see, it is only possible to heal a moderate wound in less than a day, if you
bend the rules.

BTW: maxing even a troll to a body of 23 is in my mind a severe indication that there is
a rule mechanic at hand. I wouldn't play in a game where the GM encouraged, or even
allowed such behaviour.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/shadowrun.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

"We all enter this world in the same way: naked, screaming, and soaked in blood. But
if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there."
Dana Gould.

I was never very good at parallel parking, so whenever
I can, I try to park in a parallel universe instead

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 35
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:04:56 -0600
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:38:58 -0500 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
>At 05:03 PM 1/18/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>>
>>Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
>>with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
>>certainly up there.

>Well, a starting troll character can have a natural max Body of 11. A
>starting troll physad can supplement that with up to six levels of
>Increased Attribute or Boost Attribute, reaching 17. Initiation,
>increasing the Magic Attribute, allows for more.
<SNIP>

Tsk. Tsk. That's not the way to go ... Maxed out starting body is 11.
Add on 6 points of Improved Physical Attribute for a total of 17 at a
cost of 3 magic points. Wait, I'm not done yet. Tack on 5 levels of
Attribute Boost (body) and for only 1.25 more magic points, you are
rolling (sometimes) 22 dice for body and you still have 1.75 points to
play with.

The scarier version is doing the same thing with strength. With 5 levels
of Improved Physical Attribute and 5 levels of Boosted Attribute, you get
up to a 20 strength with 2.25 points to play with... Hmmm. Killing Hands
or Improved Ability (unarmed combat), or both?

By the way, this does not take into account edges and flaws from SRCo
such as Exceptional Attribute or Aptitude ... Pleasant Dreams. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 36
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:35:30 EST
In a message dated 1/18/1999 5:13:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> >Ick. I *thought* you couldn't get a 20+ stat in shadowrun ... well,
> you
> >*shouldn't* be able to. You can't in SR3 (to the best of my
> knowledge.)
> >:)
>
> Wasn't there someone on the list who'd managed to get a troll physad
> with an obscene body stat, under SR3? If it wasn't 20+, it was
> certainly up there.

We had someone in the game here roll a "44" once, and I know that one time I
rolled a success test for a rating 3 Ident-scanner and got a "28." And about
the person getting a "44", that was there target number, as they were trying
to lift something using Levitation to get out of the Renraku Arcology (and the
players here are not going to like the upcoming Winternight Jihad game(s) that
are coming really soon.

-Herc
Message no. 37
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:44:22 EST
In a message dated 1/18/1999 8:41:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

> K in the Shadows wrote:
>
> > A word of advice. *When* MitS does come out, you may heavily/seriously
> want
> > to consider switching full heartedly over to SR3 magic rules/guidelines.
> It
> > will probably be a lot easier.
>
> You do mean IF Mits comes out don't you. I am starting to have my doubts
as
> to
> it ever makeing it past the development stages. Published in the back of
> fifty
> different source books.
>
> >
> >
> > -K
>
> Grimlakin
>
From conversations I have had with the DLoH, MiTS is supposedly already at the
publishers being put into the format to be mass-printed and distributed, so in
this case, I do believe that FASA will be on schedule this time.

-Herc
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:37:53 +0100
According to XaOs [David Goth], at 16:20 on 18 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Actually 'being able to have a Force rating higher than 1' really isn't much
> of an advantage anymore, now that grounding is gone.

True, but you can still fight a focus in astral space, and I'd much rather
fight a Force 1 focus than a Force 6 one. (Not to mention in my campaign
grounding still exists.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 39
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:10:28 -0500
At 02:04 AM 1/19/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
>
>Tsk. Tsk. That's not the way to go ... Maxed out starting body is 11.
>Add on 6 points of Improved Physical Attribute for a total of 17 at a
>cost of 3 magic points. Wait, I'm not done yet. Tack on 5 levels of
>Attribute Boost (body) and for only 1.25 more magic points, you are
>rolling (sometimes) 22 dice for body and you still have 1.75 points to
>play with.

Perhaps. But then in order to activate the boost, you have to make a Magic
test against a TN 9, with the power lasting only a number of turns equal to
successes, and then you've got to handle 11S stun drain with Willpower once
the boost runs out. (I figure a TN 9 because Improved Attribute bonuses
count as natural for other purposes, so they probably should for this as
well.)

Not a very practical solution. You'll be lucky to get the boost for one or
two turns and then you'll wipe yourself out with a massive drain. The only
way it really helps is if you know for a fact that you're going to get
nailed on a particular turn and you've got to resist scads of damage.

>The scarier version is doing the same thing with strength. With 5 levels
>of Improved Physical Attribute and 5 levels of Boosted Attribute, you get
>up to a 20 strength with 2.25 points to play with... Hmmm. Killing Hands
>or Improved Ability (unarmed combat), or both?

Again, TN 8 and 10S drain. Of course, this might be a bit more practical
as a weapon of last resort sort of thing.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 40
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:45:24 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:43 AM 1/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>:Actually, by the latest rulings out of FASA, a starting troll can
get
>:nine levels of Increased Attribute. Here's the word from FASA's
errata
>:guy, Rob Boyle, as posted to the list a week back:
>
>
>Nope. Magic Rating limits the level of any adpet power. Your "Body
+9"
>improved physical attributte power is 3 over that limit.
> The max level of any single adept power is equal to the adepts
magic
>rating- one of my FAVE SR3
>additions.

Yep, this has been previously pointed out to me, but since I posted
more than one example that overlooked this rule, it bears repeating.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 41
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:54:08 -0600
Mike Bobroff wrote:

> In a message dated 1/18/1999 8:41:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> Grimlakin@**********.COM writes:
> > You do mean IF Mits comes out don't you. I am starting to have my doubts as
> > to it ever makeing it past the development stages. Published in the back of
> > fifty different source books.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > -K
> >
> > Grimlakin
> >
> >From conversations I have had with the DLoH, MiTS is supposedly already at the
> publishers being put into the format to be mass-printed and distributed, so in
> this case, I do believe that FASA will be on schedule this time.

Oh I have hope again happy day!!!! Seriously though. I have been NEEDING that
book for quite some time now. Want to do Canon rules and have been pushing off
initiating. Maby I'll get really lucky and it will come out early!

>
>
> -Herc

Grimlakin
Message no. 42
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:58:58 -0600
:The scarier version is doing the same thing with strength. With 5 levels
:of Improved Physical Attribute and 5 levels of Boosted Attribute, you get
:up to a 20 strength with 2.25 points to play with... Hmmm. Killing Hands
:or Improved Ability (unarmed combat), or both?


Naw, since you only have level 5 adept powers, get plastic bone lacing
(22m stun) and 2 spurs (30M physical). Yes, that is correct- 30M!!!! Get
him close enough, and he could take out a Banshee LAV.


:By the way, this does not take into account edges and flaws from SRCo
:such as Exceptional Attribute or Aptitude ... Pleasant Dreams. :)


Well, yeah- but thats not straight SR3, silly dilly. :)

Mongoose
Message no. 43
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: spell locks and phys ads.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:44:35 EST
In a message dated 1/19/1999 3:55:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

>
> Oh I have hope again happy day!!!! Seriously though. I have been NEEDING
> that
> book for quite some time now. Want to do Canon rules and have been
pushing
> off
> initiating. Maby I'll get really lucky and it will come out early!
>
IF it is early, it will be a *VERY* happy day indeed!!!

-K

Further Reading

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