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Message no. 1
From: riftspyro@*****.com (Mike Watren)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT)
Have sorta a strange question I probly missed before
when reading thru the spell section but on the "Ram"
spell how does that exactly work.. yes I know dunb
question but like lets say you are behind a window or
on a buss for example and you cast Ram at an target
will it break out the window infront of you ( If high
enough force?) or can you choose where the path of
distruction will start? Meh thought I would ask before
maybe chooseing this for a new char I am makeing thank
you.

The Great Mr Slamm-0! ( Shadowrunning isnt really a
crime.. its just a great way to end up dead =))

()xxx()_________________________)

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Message no. 2
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:50:01 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Watren" <riftspyro@*****.com>


> Have sorta a strange question I probly missed before
> when reading thru the spell section but on the "Ram"
> spell how does that exactly work..

> lets say you are behind a window or
> on a bus for example and you cast Ram at an target
> will it break out the window in front of you
> or can you choose where the path of
> distruction will start?

I'm pretty sure most of what I have to say about this is supported my
the various magic books, but take everything IMHO with the standard
YMMV disclaimer.

Only physical manipulation spells travel through normal space. These
spells create something near the caster and then fling it in the
direction of the target. That something will hit anything along the
path from caster to target. [Note: This path may not be a straight
line if reflective/refractive objects allow the caster to establish
LOS.] This something also has a dual-nature, so astral barriers can
also cause problems.

Any other spell creates something in *astral* space near the caster
and then flings this toward the target. If it survives the astral
travel (it might not depending on astral barriers in the way), it will
cause something to happen to/near the target. If it is a physical
spell, will probably create something in normal space near the target.
Physical obstacles (such as a window pane) will not affect the spells
travel, unless they also happen to be astral barriers (say, growing
FAB...).

So, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is ram a physical
manipulation spell or not?", punk. ;)

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 3
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:02:48 +0200
DTD> So, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is ram a physical
DTD> manipulation spell or not?", punk. ;)


---------------------------------------------

Ram is a Combat spell. Not a physical Manipulation. At least it is
listed undercombart and not under Manipulation. IMHO
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:03:54 +0200
According to Da Twink Daddy, on Monday 21 April 2003 23:50 the word on the
street was...

> Only physical manipulation spells travel through normal space. These
> spells create something near the caster and then fling it in the
> direction of the target. That something will hit anything along the
> path from caster to target. [Note: This path may not be a straight
> line if reflective/refractive objects allow the caster to establish
> LOS.]

IIRC, spells always travel along the shortest path to the target, even if
LOS requires a longer way -- if you're using a mirror to see around a
corner, the spell would try to go through the wall.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: stevenhad@*****.co.uk (Steve)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:56:51 +0100 (BST)
--- Mike Watren <riftspyro@*****.com> wrote: > Have
sorta a strange question I probly missed before
> when reading thru the spell section but on the "Ram"
> spell how does that exactly work.. yes I know dunb
> question but like lets say you are behind a window
> or
> on a buss for example and you cast Ram at an target
> will it break out the window infront of you ( If
> high
> enough force?) or can you choose where the path of
> distruction will start? Meh thought I would ask
> before
> maybe chooseing this for a new char I am makeing
> thank
> you.
>
> The Great Mr Slamm-0! ( Shadowrunning isnt really a
> crime.. its just a great way to end up dead =))
>
> ()xxx()_________________________)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
> http://search.yahoo.com

As I read the combat spell guidelines, you affect 1
object with any spell.

Because you can't target a specific part of a complete
object you couldn't blow out the window in your
example - if you cast the spell you'd frag the whole
bus!

Steve

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Message no. 6
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:17:47 +0200
From: "Hexren" <me@******.net>
>
> DTD> So, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is ram a physical
> DTD> manipulation spell or not?", punk. ;)
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Ram is a Combat spell. Not a physical Manipulation. At least it is
> listed undercombart and not under Manipulation. IMHO

And even combat spells are mana or physical spells.

Lars
Message no. 7
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:36:12 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>


According to Da Twink Daddy, on Monday 21 April 2003 23:50 the word on
the
street was...

> > Only physical manipulation spells travel through normal space.
These
> > spells create something near the caster and then fling it in the
> > direction of the target. That something will hit anything along
the
> > path from caster to target. [Note: This path may not be a
straight
> > line if reflective/refractive objects allow the caster to
establish
> > LOS.]

> IIRC, spells always travel along the shortest path to the target,
even if
> LOS requires a longer way -- if you're using a mirror to see around
a
> corner, the spell would try to go through the wall.

Let me clarify. I see astral space as shaped by a (the?) collective
mind, and in particular physical (and non-physical) senses. So, an
straight line path in astral space (what the spell will certainly
follow) may not correspond to a straight line in physcial space. Most
notably, if you are firing a physical manipulation at someone using a
mirror, I say it hits the mirror. Also, if you are using a mirror to
cast a "normal" spell (powerball or manaball, say), you are using a
mirror do to so, and there is a astral barrier between you and the
mirror or the mirror and your target but not you and your target, the
spell will have to deal with the astral barrier. This might not
simple cannon, though.

How can a straight line in astral space not correspond to straight in
normal space and vice versa? Mirrors and other sense manipulators
(but not sense manipulating spells!) "cause" folds and/or stretching
or compression of astral space. Of course, this has interesting
consequences that only a topologist couold enumerate for you, but I
know enough topology to accept magic as working that way.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 8
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:42:36 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>


> From: "Hexren" <me@******.net>

> > DTD> So, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is ram a
physical
> > DTD> manipulation spell or not?", punk. ;)

> > Ram is a Combat spell. Not a physical Manipulation. At least it is
> > listed undercombart and not under Manipulation. IMHO

I wasn't trying to imply that ram is a physical manipulation, sorry.
I didn't know and wasn't going to dig out my books, so I figured I'd
explain both sides and the interested party could look up what ram
actually was.

> And even combat spells are mana or physical spells.

Yes, but, oddly enough, that doesn't matter. Physical health,
physical combat, physical detection, and physical illusion spells all
act "normally" and travel through astral space to reach their target.
Physical manipulation spells are the only spells that travel through
normal space.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:17:00 +0200
According to Da Twink Daddy, on Tuesday 22 April 2003 20:36 the word on the
street was...

> Let me clarify. I see astral space as shaped by a (the?) collective
> mind, and in particular physical (and non-physical) senses. So, an
> straight line path in astral space (what the spell will certainly
> follow) may not correspond to a straight line in physcial space.

I'm not sure there's an SR3 rule about all this (if there is, someone
please point us all to it :) but in SRII's explanation of how spells work,
it does specifically address this problem, and comes up with what I
originally said: spells take the direct route. See page 150, SRII; in the
left-hand column is a paragraph reading "Finally, what about mirrors?"
followed by another paragraph of explanation, which includes the line "No,
it does not head out and reflect off the mirror"...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:53:55 -0800
>> Let me clarify. I see astral space as shaped by a (the?) collective
> >> mind, and in particular physical (and non-physical) senses. So, an
>> straight line path in astral space (what the spell will certainly
> >> follow) may not correspond to a straight line in physcial space.
>
>I'm not sure there's an SR3 rule about all this (if there is, someone
>please point us all to it :) but in SRII's explanation of how spells work,
>it does specifically address this problem, and comes up with what I
>originally said: spells take the direct route. See page 150, SRII; in the
>left-hand column is a paragraph reading "Finally, what about mirrors?"
>followed by another paragraph of explanation, which includes the line "No,
>it does not head out and reflect off the mirror"...

Yeah, I remember that. Back in High School when we were using 2nd ed, I was
playing Drake (my cabbie) and one of my friends played a mage. They shot
out my windshield and the mage (already having a Serious stun from a
previous failed drain check) was hiding in the passenger footspace in the
front seat. He picks up my rearview mirror and uses it to target the
humanis thug with the MMG in front of us.

Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.

======================Chronicals of TimeKeeper, Otaku Fixer

"Looks like you got a problem there Drake."

"Shut up TK, just shut up."
Message no. 11
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:12:12 -0600
At 08:53 PM 4/23/2003 -0800, Valeu John EMFA wrote:
> >in SRII's explanation of how spells work,
> >it does specifically address this problem, and comes up with what I
> >originally said: spells take the direct route. See page 150, SRII; in the
> >left-hand column is a paragraph reading "Finally, what about mirrors?"
> >followed by another paragraph of explanation, which includes the line "No,
> >it does not head out and reflect off the mirror"...
>
>Yeah, I remember that. Back in High School when we were using 2nd ed, I was
>playing Drake (my cabbie) and one of my friends played a mage. They shot
>out my windshield and the mage (already having a Serious stun from a
>previous failed drain check) was hiding in the passenger footspace in the
>front seat. He picks up my rearview mirror and uses it to target the
>humanis thug with the MMG in front of us.
>
>Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
>Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
>And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.

Your GM did it wrong :)

Powerbolt isn't/wasn't a physical manipulation spell. Therefor it would
travel through the astral plane, not the physical plane, and would only
"manifest" at the target (in a sense, grounding out into the target through
the target's aura).

Unless the engine block was dual natured (existing in both the physical and
the astral plane) or astral, it would not have been a barrier for the
powerbolt in any way.

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 12
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:44:16 -0800
> >> >in SRII's explanation of how spells work,
> >> >it does specifically address this problem, and comes up with what I
> >> >originally said: spells take the direct route. See page 150, SRII; in
> the
> >> >left-hand column is a paragraph reading "Finally, what about
mirrors?"
> >> >followed by another paragraph of explanation, which includes the line
> "No,
> >> >it does not head out and reflect off the mirror"...
> >
>>Yeah, I remember that. Back in High School when we were using 2nd ed, I
was
> >>playing Drake (my cabbie) and one of my friends played a mage. They
> shot
>>out my windshield and the mage (already having a Serious stun from a
> >>previous failed drain check) was hiding in the passenger footspace in
> the
>>front seat. He picks up my rearview mirror and uses it to target the
> >>humanis thug with the MMG in front of us.
>>
> >>Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
>>Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
> >>And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.
>
>Your GM did it wrong :)

>Powerbolt isn't/wasn't a physical manipulation spell. Therefor it would
>travel through the astral plane, not the physical plane, and would only
>"manifest" at the target (in a sense, grounding out into the target through

>the target's aura).

>Unless the engine block was dual natured (existing in both the physical and

>the astral plane) or astral, it would not have been a barrier for the
>powerbolt in any way.

Yeah well I think my whole car was magical with the amount of crap I had in
the trunk. We figured it was a pocket metaplane. Besides, we were kids,
still learning the rules and having fun. Throwing stuff out for the sake of
dramatic license :)
Message no. 13
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:17:07 -0600
At 09:44 PM 4/23/2003 -0800, Valeu John EMFA wrote:

> > >>Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
> >>Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
> > >>And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.
> >
> >Your GM did it wrong :)
>
> >Powerbolt isn't/wasn't a physical manipulation spell. Therefor it would
> >travel through the astral plane, not the physical plane, and would only
> >"manifest" at the target (in a sense, grounding out into the target
through
>
> >the target's aura).
>
> >Unless the engine block was dual natured (existing in both the physical and
>
> >the astral plane) or astral, it would not have been a barrier for the
> >powerbolt in any way.
>
>Yeah well I think my whole car was magical with the amount of crap I had in
>the trunk. We figured it was a pocket metaplane. Besides, we were kids,
>still learning the rules and having fun. Throwing stuff out for the sake of
>dramatic license :)

Oh, well then, I would've done the same thing your GM did, except maybe
"award" the Mage with an Insanity attribute of 1 ;)

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:05 +0200
According to Valeu John EMFA, on Thursday 24 April 2003 06:53 the word on
the street was...

> Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
> Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
> And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.

The car would actually have been working just as it did before the spell
was cast: Powerbolt is not a damaging manipulation spell, and so travels
through astral space to the target :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Spell Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:41:38 -0800
>> Ok, roll. Spell is good, and powerbolt goes through the engine block.
>> Now roll. Bad. Mage is knocked out from drain.
>> And now my car is knocked out too from the powerbolt.

>The car would actually have been working just as it did before the spell
>was cast: Powerbolt is not a damaging manipulation spell, and so travels
>through astral space to the target :)

Yeah well, the mage was rolling bad dice that day. The aformentioned
Serious Stun was from a manabolt that went THROUGH the target's head. On a
stoped monorail car, the target (another player) was on the roof, peeked
through the window. This freaked out the mage and he cast manabolt.
Successful cast, failed drain check. Target succesed his defense roll, but
GM decides that a secondary effect happens. The attack freaks him out and
he lets go of the ledge, falling over. The mage, with a splitting headache,
get's out of the monorail car (via those emergancy inflatable slide thingys)
and stumbles to my cab. The target (now falling) decides to punch the
monorail support with his cyberarm to stop himself.
Roll and success!

Of course the GM then reminds the player that he did buy second hand ware...

So it was all in keeping with the caos of the situation.

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