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Message no. 1
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:19:53 -0400
Greetings -n- Salutations,

Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher than
6? How many of those characters were PC's?

I ask because I was looking at the drain codes the other day and they seem
awfully low in SR3. A base drain difficulty of half the force (rounded
down) with a drain modifier for the spell applied, and +2 for any
additional spells being sustained. now i am quite aware of how fast things
like that can stack up, but still.. a force 5 spell has a base drain of 2.
I'm not complaining. It jut seems to me that their would be a great number
of mages with spells in the force 10 range.

Just curious,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 2
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:40:21 -0400
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:19:53 -0400 Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com>
writes:
> Greetings -n- Salutations,
>
> Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell
above
> force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
> wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your
campaigns
> how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher
than
> 6? How many of those characters were PC's?
>
I haven't seen many. Mainly because of the difficulty in learning such
spells. Come on, trying to roll a 14 is statistically very difficult
(about 1 in 100 off the top of my head) and doesn't happen much anyways.
The only PCs I have with spells over force 6 are Hunter and Phoenix.
And they go up into the double digit range. But they really don't
qualify as "normal" anyways.

*************************************************************************
Griffin Industries
"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

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Message no. 3
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:39:00 -0500
From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
Subject: Spells above Force 6


> Greetings -n- Salutations,

Heyas!

> Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
> force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
> wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
> how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher
than
> 6? How many of those characters were PC's?

At one point in our darkened past, the group here used to see spells above
the force quite frequently. Nowadays, with more restraint and a better
understanding of target modifiers (on both sides of the oppositional fence),
it isn't that common.

> I ask because I was looking at the drain codes the other day and they seem
> awfully low in SR3. A base drain difficulty of half the force (rounded
> down) with a drain modifier for the spell applied, and +2 for any
> additional spells being sustained. now i am quite aware of how fast things
> like that can stack up, but still.. a force 5 spell has a base drain of 2.
> I'm not complaining. It jut seems to me that their would be a great number
> of mages with spells in the force 10 range.

Now when the target number to learn (NOT design) the force 10 would be a 20
it wouldn't. And as for the record, I think the highest force spell running
loose currently in the games is Padre's Force-9 Nutrition (long story
involving botanicals). I know there is a Force-8 Mind Probe in the hands of
the Cat Shamaness, but I believe that's her "super spell" also.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Winstar Tech Support and Provisioning (www.winstar.com)
Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:45 -0500
:Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
:force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
:wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
:how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher than
:6? How many of those characters were PC's?

I don't think we've ever needed NPC's with such spells, but we had one
PC who made a point of learning such spells in SR2 (usually with expendable
fetishes and maybe exclusive). I think he had a force 10 acid bomb and a
force 8 mana dart.
I don't really see the point in SR3. For most spells, force 6 is either
very effective (assuming maximum allowed effect at force 6) or hard to
resist (force 10 would be somewhat harder, but is it worth it?)
In SR2, the spells force determined how many spellcasting dice you
rolled, so there was a lot more reason to learn them.

Mongoose

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Message no. 5
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:32:35 GMT
>From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
> I don't really see the point in SR3. For most spells, force 6 is
>either
>very effective (assuming maximum allowed effect at force 6) or hard to
>resist (force 10 would be somewhat harder, but is it worth it?)

Depends, seeing as a spell can be cast at any force lower than it was
learned it could well be worth the time and the karma to learn one that
causes physical damage from drain (castintg it at alower force the rest of
the time) just for those moments when another box of stun will be enough to
drop you. Plus, heal can be applied to physical damage, effectively giving
you two chances to stage the damage down and turning most of what is left to
stun the second time round.

Having said that though, a TN of twice the force to learn makes high-force
spells all but impossible; I have tried hard to forget how many months my
character took to learn a force 6 manaball. Even with karma pool you have
to be lucky to make an intelligence(12) test on 1-6 dice (I'm sure Mongoose
will be kind enough to tell me :)>) and that's for a force 6 spell.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 6
From: Jamz JamzTheMan@****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:11:26 -0500
> >From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
> > I don't really see the point in SR3. For most spells, force 6 is
> >either
> >very effective (assuming maximum allowed effect at force 6) or hard to
> >resist (force 10 would be somewhat harder, but is it worth it?)
>

Sometimes it depends on the spell and/or the caster. A initiate grade 5 might be tossing
force 8-10 spells more regular and easier. Also, with SR3 now, some spell
effects/successes are capped. ie. a Heal spell at force 6 allows for 6 boxes max to be
healed, force 10, well, 10 boxes. Most Illusion spells are also limited to a number of
successes per force of the spell. So, were a Force 3 Invisibility or Cunfusion worked well
in SR2, are rather ineffective in SR3. Given the difficulty of learning spells 6 and
higher, it's rather balanced.

Jamz
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:18:23 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 16:32 on 17 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> Plus, heal can be applied to physical damage, effectively giving you
> two chances to stage the damage down and turning most of what is left
> to stun the second time round.

Damage from Drain can't be healed with magic (SR3 page 162). IIRC it was
Lady J. who proclaimed a few years ago (before SR3; back then magically
healing Drain damage was allowed) that magicians with a low Magic rating
were actually better off, because they could cast a spell, get physical
Drain, and use Treat to remove it again.

--
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Message no. 8
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:19:30 -0400
> Having said that though, a TN of twice the force to learn makes high-force
> spells all but impossible; I have tried hard to forget how many months my
> character took to learn a force 6 manaball. Even with karma pool you have
> to be lucky to make an intelligence(12) test on 1-6 dice (I'm sure Mongoose
> will be kind enough to tell me :)>) and that's for a force 6 spell.
>
> Phil

<digression mode: ON>
How many people limit initial starting skills/spells. I know that the
last game I GMed, I set a limit of 1 level/force 6 skill/spell or two
level 5's, to reflect the fact that these are 'expert' and 'master' levels
of knowledge.
What do you think?

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly
Message no. 9
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:53:18 -0500
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Spells above Force 6


> Depends, seeing as a spell can be cast at any force lower than it was
> learned it could well be worth the time and the karma to learn one that
> causes physical damage from drain (castintg it at alower force the rest of
> the time) just for those moments when another box of stun will be enough
to
> drop you. Plus, heal can be applied to physical damage, effectively
giving
> you two chances to stage the damage down and turning most of what is left
to
> stun the second time round.

Uhm ... erm ... why is I don't seem to recall that working for magically
caused damage (from spell drain resistance), let alone regular "drain".

> Having said that though, a TN of twice the force to learn makes high-force
> spells all but impossible; I have tried hard to forget how many months my
> character took to learn a force 6 manaball. Even with karma pool you have
> to be lucky to make an intelligence(12) test on 1-6 dice (I'm sure
Mongoose
> will be kind enough to tell me :)>) and that's for a force 6 spell.

Intelligence of twice force??? I'm digging out my book now.... yeah, page
180 (SR3)... "Intelligence" is never a part of this formula, and I think
that people keep forgetting other things that actually do help them "learn"
the spell from the formula. Also, it won't ever take more than two months
(60 days) for a Deadly drain spell. In fact, if you have a force 60 spell
(OMG!!!!) I think we should all be very afraid.... as learning a spell takes
force in DAYS to learn. Designing it at most would take 60 days....

No offense guy, but go back and relearn the rules for this kind of thing, it
is VERY clear that at least your recollection isn't the best.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 10
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 18:08:45 -0400
On 17 Jun 2000, at 13:53, NeoJudas wrote:

> Intelligence of twice force??? I'm digging out my book now.... yeah, page
> 180 (SR3)... "Intelligence" is never a part of this formula, and I think
> that people keep forgetting other things that actually do help them "learn"
> the spell from the formula. Also, it won't ever take more than two months
> (60 days) for a Deadly drain spell. In fact, if you have a force 60 spell
> (OMG!!!!) I think we should all be very afraid.... as learning a spell takes
> force in DAYS to learn. Designing it at most would take 60 days....

But you have to score at least one success to learn the spell.
Sure, the base time for a Force 60 spell is two months, but I'd like
to see ANYONE (and that includes Dunky & Harley) hit TN#120.

You are correct about Intelligence, though. It is a Sorcery Test,
using Magic Background as a Complementary Skill. An instructor
can also add dice to the test.

> No offense guy, but go back and relearn the rules for this kind of thing, it
> is VERY clear that at least your recollection isn't the best.

Not to be rude, but you need to read all the rules. We all make
mistakes, especially when it comes to something as complex as
Shadowrun.

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly
Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:23:50 -0500
:>From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
:> I don't really see the point in SR3. For most spells, force 6 is
:>either
:>very effective (assuming maximum allowed effect at force 6) or hard to
:>resist (force 10 would be somewhat harder, but is it worth it?)
:
:Depends, seeing as a spell can be cast at any force lower than it was
:learned it could well be worth the time and the karma to learn one that
:causes physical damage from drain (castintg it at alower force the rest of
:the time) just for those moments when another box of stun will be enough to
:drop you.

Potentially, I suppose. Rarely, though.

:Plus, heal can be applied to physical damage, effectively giving
:you two chances to stage the damage down and turning most of what is left
to
:stun the second time round.


Nope. Damage caused by drain can not be healed with magic.

:Having said that though, a TN of twice the force to learn makes high-force
:spells all but impossible; I have tried hard to forget how many months my
:character took to learn a force 6 manaball. Even with karma pool you have
:to be lucky to make an intelligence(12) test on 1-6 dice (I'm sure Mongoose
:will be kind enough to tell me :)>) and that's for a force 6 spell.
:
:Phil

On 6 dice, its a 15% chance you'll succeede. A better library or lodge
can add dice, as can a elemental (not nescesarily yours, just one commanded
to aid you), a good teacher, or totem modifiers, and its a sorcery test, not
intellegence. Pump those dice up to 12 (quite do-able) and you got a 29%
chance. Not a simple job, but easier than finding APDS, which folks seem to
manage fairly often...

Mongoose

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Message no. 12
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:36:03 -0500
> >From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
> > I don't really see the point in SR3. For most spells, force 6 is
> >either
> >very effective (assuming maximum allowed effect at force 6) or hard to
> >resist (force 10 would be somewhat harder, but is it worth it?)
>

>>>Sometimes it depends on the spell and/or the caster. A initiate grade 5
might be tossing force 8-10 spells more regular and easier.

Yeah, but his sorcery is likely to be so high (or at least potentially
could be if he'd not wasted karma on high force spells) that he won't even
NEED high force spells.

>>>Also, with SR3 now, some spell effects/successes are capped. ie. a Heal
spell at force 6 allows for 6 boxes max to be healed, force 10, well, 10
boxes.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten "Heal". That is one spell my PC was considering
trying to learn at very high force. OTOH, rolling those 10 successes still
not easy, especially since the lowest TN is gonna be 4, and the often go
over 6. Additionally, getting those 10 successes means you probably used
your whole spell pool, meaning your resitng the drain of a force 10 spell
with nothing but willpower...
My PC took it at force 4, and only ever rolled more than 4 successes
when healing the parties adept, and that only once or twice. For everybody
else, the TN was always at least 6 (including himself- 5 essence plus a
light wound = tn 6)

>>>Most Illusion spells are also limited to a number of successes per force
of the spell. So, were a Force 3 Invisibility or Cunfusion worked well in
SR2, are rather ineffective in SR3. Given the difficulty of learning spells
6 and higher, it's rather balanced.
>>>Jamz


None of those spells have a success cap based on force. (If its not
mentioned in the description, theres no cap.) They don't need one- the
spells effect is resited, so higher force spells are more likely to produce
the desired effect. However, an invisibility spell with 7 successes is
pretty unlikely to be seen through, regardless of force...

Mongoose

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Message no. 13
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:11:49 -0500
From: "Fanguad" <fanguad@****.rit.edu>
Subject: Re: Spells above Force 6


> > Intelligence of twice force??? I'm digging out my book now.... yeah,
page
> > 180 (SR3)... "Intelligence" is never a part of this formula, and I
think
> > that people keep forgetting other things that actually do help them
"learn"
> > the spell from the formula. Also, it won't ever take more than two
months
> > (60 days) for a Deadly drain spell. In fact, if you have a force 60
spell
> > (OMG!!!!) I think we should all be very afraid.... as learning a spell
takes
> > force in DAYS to learn. Designing it at most would take 60 days....
>
> But you have to score at least one success to learn the spell.
> Sure, the base time for a Force 60 spell is two months, but I'd like
> to see ANYONE (and that includes Dunky & Harley) hit TN#120.

For which portion of the procedure? Learning the Spell or Designing the
Spell? Designing the spell is twice desired force minus magic attribute.
For all we know, Harley and Ehran *might* have had target number of a 2
(everyone fails on a "one" after all) when it came to designing the spell.

> You are correct about Intelligence, though. It is a Sorcery Test,
> using Magic Background as a Complementary Skill. An instructor
> can also add dice to the test.
>
> > No offense guy, but go back and relearn the rules for this kind of
thing, it
> > is VERY clear that at least your recollection isn't the best.
>
> Not to be rude, but you need to read all the rules. We all make
> mistakes, especially when it comes to something as complex as
> Shadowrun.

Oh trust me, I have. In fact, I had just reread them prior to the reply I
made. Design time for a Deadly drain spell is 60 days. Learning the spell
is force of formula in days (unless of course, you start getting in various
metaplanar quests, then either or both of these times could be altered in
some manner most likely).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Winstar Tech Support and Provisioning (www.winstar.com)
Message no. 14
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:22:02 GMT
>From: "NeoJudas" <neojudas@******************.com>
>No offense guy, but go back and relearn the rules for this kind of thing,
>it
>is VERY clear that at least your recollection isn't the best.

None taken; my anouncement that drain damage can be magically healed comes
from an essay I read a while ago on why magic should be used to resist drain
and I assumed that this was still the case.

The use of intelligence as opposed to sorcery to learn spells is just me
being lazy; I roll 5 dice and forget where they come from.

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 15
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:03:11 -0400
On 18 Jun 2000, at 0:11, NeoJudas wrote:

> > But you have to score at least one success to learn the spell.
> > Sure, the base time for a Force 60 spell is two months, but I'd like
> > to see ANYONE (and that includes Dunky & Harley) hit TN#120.
>
> For which portion of the procedure? Learning the Spell or Designing the
> Spell? Designing the spell is twice desired force minus magic attribute.
> For all we know, Harley and Ehran *might* have had target number of a 2
> (everyone fails on a "one" after all) when it came to designing the spell.

Learning the spell, as I said above. I didn't want to talk about
designing a spell since that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

> Oh trust me, I have. In fact, I had just reread them prior to the reply I
> made. Design time for a Deadly drain spell is 60 days. Learning the spell
> is force of formula in days (unless of course, you start getting in various
> metaplanar quests, then either or both of these times could be altered in
> some manner most likely).

As Steve reiterated, you need _at least_ one success to learn the
spell (and design it, IIRC). There really is no upper bound on how
long it takes to learn a spell, since you could keep trying and
failing until your character died from old age.

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly
Message no. 16
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:50:21 GMT
>From: Fanguad <fanguad@****.rit.edu>
> > For which portion of the procedure? Learning the Spell or Designing the
> > Spell? Designing the spell is twice desired force minus magic
>attribute.
> > For all we know, Harley and Ehran *might* have had target number of a 2
> > (everyone fails on a "one" after all) when it came to designing the
>spell.
>
>Learning the spell, as I said above. I didn't want to talk about
>designing a spell since that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Actually your point is justified even with designing a spell because even
once the spell is made, it's creator does not automaticly know how to cast
it, only that it works (MITS pg48, Using the formula "once you have a spell
formula, you can use it to learn the spell...")

I have found that designing spells is one hell of a lot easier than learning
them; you are allowed to take your magic attribute away from the design
target number (the drain modifiers almost never go higher than your magic
attribute and therefore it is easier than learning as spell so long as you
have a suitably high spell design skill).

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 17
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:16:17 -0500
From: "Fanguad" <fanguad@****.rit.edu>
Subject: Re: Spells above Force 6


> > Oh trust me, I have. In fact, I had just reread them prior to the reply
I
> > made. Design time for a Deadly drain spell is 60 days. Learning the
spell
> > is force of formula in days (unless of course, you start getting in
various
> > metaplanar quests, then either or both of these times could be altered
in
> > some manner most likely).
>
> As Steve reiterated, you need _at least_ one success to learn the
> spell (and design it, IIRC). There really is no upper bound on how
> long it takes to learn a spell, since you could keep trying and
> failing until your character died from old age.

Ah, I see what you were trying to point out now. Okay, you are right in
that you do have to have at least one success on each test, and the target
numbers for the different tests are most likely different from one another
as well. BUT, and perhaps this is just me, there is an upper limit to the
entire process, as spell design is a voluntary action, as is learning the
spell actually. If you achieve a certain threshold of time, basing it upon
your own historical/personal knowledge, and for whatever reason you just
don't seem to be grasping it (design or learning, whichever is in question)
... then you can opt to quit.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 18
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:58:07 -0400
NeoJudas wrote:

> From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
> Subject: Spells above Force 6
>
> > Greetings -n- Salutations,
>
> Heyas!
>
> > Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
> > force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
> > wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
> > how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher
> than
> > 6? How many of those characters were PC's?

Jett has a couple of spells over force 6...a force 8 acid spell, and a force 8
freeze spell. However, technically they aren't really over force 6, they're only
EFFECTIVE force 8 because of the exclusive spell modifier. Designing and/or
learning spells higher than ACTUAL force 8 is a stainless steel bitch.

--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll die
here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles


"I'll make this clear, I'm only here for backup. And to offer the occasional
advice or insult."
--Jett, undead bounty hunter
Message no. 19
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:11:41 +0200
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

> Actually your point is justified even with designing a spell because even
> once the spell is made, it's creator does not automaticly know how to cast
> it, only that it works (MITS pg48, Using the formula "once you have a spell
> formula, you can use it to learn the spell...")
>
> I have found that designing spells is one hell of a lot easier than learning
> them; you are allowed to take your magic attribute away from the design
> target number (the drain modifiers almost never go higher than your magic
> attribute and therefore it is easier than learning as spell so long as you
> have a suitably high spell design skill).

Strictly separating design and learning seems quite artificial,
especially for "freelancers" like shadowrunner mages. I mean, let's view
spell creation as creating a computer program, an analogy that seems to
fit. Finding the formula would be like sorting out formal algorithms and
a decisionnal tree for the program, without taking any little bit of
coding into account. Then learning the spell (and thus adding one's
signature to it) would be the coding part, with signature being the
programmer's tricks, habits and 'user interface'. However, design and
coding are often conducted in parallel, with tries and misses strategy
added to pure theoretical concepts. Also, when you design say a complex
algorithm, you're likely to have a profound understanding of it, that
will greatly help when coding it. Designing a formula should similarly
ease learning.
So, what about this (Tada !) Genuine Untested House Rule:
Intertwined spell design and learning: the mage makes a design test as
usual, and a learning test with a target number reduced by twice the
number of successes (more, less ?) achieved on the design test. Design
and learning times are added. The formula obtained is however somewhat
customized for the designer, and any other mage learning it suffers a +2
on her learning test target number. The author can still streamline his
work in half the base time, to get a proper formula for sale. At GM
discretion, the mage may 'field-test' his unfinished work, with either
higher drain, lower efficiency and (most probably) spectacular fumbles.

Oh yeah, I used the word mage, it should work as well for other
traditions. So, what do you think of this ? Makes sense ? Utterly stupid
?

By the way, I was wondering about magic research. How is it performed,
has magic theory a big theoretical background as are mathematics for
physics, or is it more a kind of art ? What do students in the MIT&T (or
a similar college) actually learn ? MitS states that mages "draw on a
vast library of cultural symbols and ideas". I have trouble figuring out
what symbolism/paradigm a 'generic mage' from MIT&T uses to grasp the
magical world. Any opinion will be gladly welcome.

Achille

P.S.: this has an interest in my game, where the 'generic mage' is quite
frustrated of lacking a nice magical background as his Tir-na-nOg
friends have.
Message no. 20
From: Mark Abbott markabbott@****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:02:57 -0400
>
> On 6 dice, its a 15% chance you'll succeede. A better library or lodge
>can add dice, as can a elemental (not nescesarily yours, just one commanded
>to aid you), a good teacher, or totem modifiers, and its a sorcery test, not
>intellegence. Pump those dice up to 12 (quite do-able) and you got a 29%
>chance. Not a simple job, but easier than finding APDS, which folks seem to
>manage fairly often...


Hi all,

I'm a newbie on this list, a relative newbie to SR (roughly a year of
playing) and a longtime gamer. I've been following the high force
spells discussion with interest. Question: "a better library or
lodge can add dice"? I haven't seen this one in the rules, but then
given how complex the system is things are easy to miss. Can anyone
point me at the reference?

Mark
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:45:15 +0200
According to Mark Abbott, at 10:02 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> > On 6 dice, its a 15% chance you'll succeede. A better library or lodge
> >can add dice, as can a elemental (not nescesarily yours, just one commanded
> >to aid you), a good teacher, or totem modifiers, and its a sorcery test, not
> >intellegence. Pump those dice up to 12 (quite do-able) and you got a 29%
> >chance. Not a simple job, but easier than finding APDS, which folks seem to
> >manage fairly often...

Finding APDS is easy enough. Just add 2 days to the base time and .1 to
the street index for every -1 Availability TN modifier you want -- if
you're willing to spend 364 nuyen for ten rounds and wait 38 days for
them, you're rolling against a 2.

Anyway...

> I'm a newbie on this list

Welcome :) Enjoy your stay, and please read the FAQ if you haven't done so
yet.

> a relative newbie to SR (roughly a year of playing) and a longtime
> gamer. I've been following the high force spells discussion with
> interest. Question: "a better library or lodge can add dice"? I
> haven't seen this one in the rules, but then given how complex the
> system is things are easy to miss. Can anyone point me at the
> reference?

When designing a spell, every 2 rating points by which the rating of your
lodge/library exceeds your Spell Design skill level adds another die. This
is explained on page 48 of Magic in the Shadows, at the bottom of the left-
hand column.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:40:30 GMT
>From: Achille Autran <aautran@*************.fr>
<snip>
>So, what about this (Tada !) Genuine Untested House Rule:
>Intertwined spell design and learning: the mage makes a design test as
>usual, and a learning test with a target number reduced by twice the
>number of successes (more, less ?) achieved on the design test.Design
>and learning times are added. The formula obtained is however somewhat
>customized for the designer, and any other mage learning it suffers a +2
>on her learning test target number. The author can still streamline his
>work in half the base time, to get a proper formula for sale. At GM
>discretion, the mage may 'field-test' his unfinished work, with either
>higher drain, lower efficiency and (most probably) spectacular fumbles.

Works for me, I might give them extra dice based on how many successes they
get when designing, but then that will only act to make this rule a bit less
effective.

>Oh yeah, I used the word mage, it should work as well for other
>traditions. So, what do you think of this ? Makes sense ? Utterly stupid
>?

Looking at this system, mages should be able to make formula that any other
mage can understand just as well, but all shamanic formulas not designed to
be sold should be tailored towards the spell's creator - it's a very
personal thing you know.

>has magic theory a big theoretical background as are mathematics for
>physics, or is it more a kind of art ? What do students in the MIT&T (or
>a similar college) actually learn ? MitS states that mages "draw on a
>vast library of cultural symbols and ideas". I have trouble figuring out
>what symbolism/paradigm a 'generic mage' from MIT&T uses to grasp the
>magical world. Any opinion will be gladly welcome.

I imagine they all sit around discussing how the views of the
caster/conjourer affect what they can do, which came first the totem or the
shaman and how the levels of magic change with time.


Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 23
From: Mark Abbott markabbott@****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:12:18 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>When designing a spell, every 2 rating points by which the rating of your
>lodge/library exceeds your Spell Design skill level adds another die. This
>is explained on page 48 of Magic in the Shadows, at the bottom of the left-
>hand column.
>

The original post (by Mongoose) was discussing learning spells, not
spell design, IIRC. The implication was that there are library
modifiers for learning spells, similar to the modifiers for spell
design. Any pointers to the reference?

Mark
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:11:52 +0200
According to Mark Abbott, at 15:12 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> The original post (by Mongoose) was discussing learning spells, not
> spell design, IIRC. The implication was that there are library
> modifiers for learning spells, similar to the modifiers for spell
> design. Any pointers to the reference?

None that I could find in either SR3 or MITS. My guess is Mongoose got the
two mixed up.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:31:32 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Spells above Force 6


> According to Mark Abbott, at 15:12 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > The original post (by Mongoose) was discussing learning spells, not
> > spell design, IIRC. The implication was that there are library
> > modifiers for learning spells, similar to the modifiers for spell
> > design. Any pointers to the reference?
>
> None that I could find in either SR3 or MITS. My guess is Mongoose got the
> two mixed up.

The modifiers used to exist in SR2 and in the SR2-Grimoire II. I don't
recall if I have actually seen them still in SR3/MitS myself, but I know we
still use them.

The modifier isn't a modifier really, it's an extra dice bonus. For every
two full rating points the library/lodge is above/greater than the spell
that is attempting to be learned, there is an extra die towards the
designing success test (I don't think it worked for the learning test
though).

There was also, back in first edition, the mention that if you used these
extra dice, the design time was increased by 50%.

I'm going on pure memory, we're off to a meeting, finding the verification
would be a good idea.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 26
From: Herc airwisp@******************.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:43:45 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "NeoJudas" <neojudas@******************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: Spells above Force 6


> The modifiers used to exist in SR2 and in the SR2-Grimoire II. I don't
> recall if I have actually seen them still in SR3/MitS myself, but I know
we
> still use them.
>
> The modifier isn't a modifier really, it's an extra dice bonus. For every
> two full rating points the library/lodge is above/greater than the spell
> that is attempting to be learned, there is an extra die towards the
> designing success test (I don't think it worked for the learning test
> though).
>
> There was also, back in first edition, the mention that if you used these
> extra dice, the design time was increased by 50%.
>
> I'm going on pure memory, we're off to a meeting, finding the verification
> would be a good idea.

The extra dice for a lodge/library only added 50% time increase if the
rating of the lodge/library is higher than that of the designer's Sorcery
skill.

-Mike B.
Message no. 27
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:44:46 -0500
:I'm a newbie on this list, a relative newbie to SR (roughly a year of
:playing) and a longtime gamer. I've been following the high force
:spells discussion with interest. Question: "a better library or
:lodge can add dice"? I haven't seen this one in the rules, but then
:given how complex the system is things are easy to miss. Can anyone
:point me at the reference?
:
:Mark

I could be confusing this with the bonus for high rating tools used in
spell design. I did notice that astral quests do potentially add dice to
test to learn a spell, though.

Mongoose
:
:

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Message no. 28
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:26:33 +0300
Aristotle wrote:
>
> Greetings -n- Salutations,
>
> Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
> force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
> wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
> how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher than
> 6? How many of those characters were PC's?
>
I have never used a spell higher than force 8 on my players. It could
potentially prove deadly (and we don't want that top happen now do we?
They have to be coscious to feel the pain!) :)

As a player I once researched manaball at force 8 in SR2 but saw no
meaning in this first attempt of powerplay because it was actually not
so useful in the end (resisting force 8 is not so diffrent than force 6)
so I didn't bothe anymore.

In SR3 force became more important and my snake shaman has:
a force 8 Heal,
a force 7 levitate (to fly around faster than he (or any sammie) could
run),
a force 9 smoke cloud (actually a research variant called "Breath of the
Asp" without the elemental effects and based on air delivered contact
poison)
and a killer force 11 (eleven) Spiritblast. this was called for because
we tend to come up agaist high force spirits and those mothers eat up
your hard earned successes like candy :)

the wiz

btw. For those interested, the story behind this outrageous force 11
spiritblast is this.

After getting our hoops kicked by two force 9 spirits in the arcology
(that's Renraku arcology) I always wanted a BIG spirit killer.
Yet I never had the guts for a force 9 or 10 spell.
TN of 18+, yeah sure!
By that time, HHackerH (Keith for friends) was ranting about anybody
being able to get as big a TN he wanted if he gave it a hard try.
So when our team met with a strange shaman/mage that held a strange
technique of learning spells at -2 learning TN (and some other obscure
stuff on force increase and spell resistance our "evil" GM seems to have
pillaged from "Threats"-I dread the day when we are going to pay for
that boon!), I said what the heck!
I decided on a force 11 spiritblast. It was as near the "number 12" cap
as I could possibly get. I made a force 9 astral quest,designed the
formula for fixed serious damage, and sat down to make the roll after
being istructed by the mysterious mage/shaman. After rolling 19 dice (10
for magic and 9 from the quest) for five times (using up 10 karma pool)
against a modified TN 20, I managed to roll 5 16s, 2 17s, and on my
last roll I finally roll my third 6 for an 18. I now only neede a 2+ to
get the long awaited superspell.
My game master evilly looked at me with his infamous jinx look and
smiled...
I looked back at him with my infamous "you can't get me!I am invincible
Mr Bond!" look and promised that if I rolled a "one" I would strangle
him!
I then rolled the die and procceded to roll a "one"!
After a brief chase around the gaming table and a aborted first degree
by strangulation, he promised to let me reroll the die if I burned a
permanent karma pool, which I procedded to do making it my third one
after the other two I burned at the arcology). I rolled a four and he
got away with his life and most of his bodily functions intact. :)
Thus i have my precarious spirit blast 11, which I don't use very often
cause I 've seen him scribble some obscure remarks behind his screen
every time I cast it like he's keeping a score or something, making all
kinds of funny noises like suppressed laughter or something!

If the spirit is force 8 or less I use my version of the spell at force
6.
Message no. 29
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Spells above Force 6
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:26:33 +0300
Aristotle wrote:
>
> Greetings -n- Salutations,
>
> Now I'm not a total newbie. I know what is required to cast a spell above
> force 6, and what is required to learn a spell above force 6. What I do
> wonder about is the frequency of spells above force 6. In your campaigns
> how frequently to characters have access to spells with a force higher than
> 6? How many of those characters were PC's?
>
I have never used a spell higher than force 8 on my players. It could
potentially prove deadly (and we don't want that top happen now do we?
They have to be coscious to feel the pain!) :)

As a player I once researched manaball at force 8 in SR2 but saw no
meaning in this first attempt of powerplay because it was actually not
so useful in the end (resisting force 8 is not so diffrent than force 6)
so I didn't bothe anymore.

In SR3 force became more important and my snake shaman has:
a force 8 Heal,
a force 7 levitate (to fly around faster than he (or any sammie) could
run),
a force 9 smoke cloud (actually a research variant called "Breath of the
Asp" without the elemental effects and based on air delivered contact
poison)
and a killer force 11 (eleven) Spiritblast. this was called for because
we tend to come up agaist high force spirits and those mothers eat up
your hard earned successes like candy :)

the wiz

btw. For those interested, the story behind this outrageous force 11
spiritblast is this.

After getting our hoops kicked by two force 9 spirits in the arcology
(that's Renraku arcology) I always wanted a BIG spirit killer.
Yet I never had the guts for a force 9 or 10 spell.
TN of 18+, yeah sure!
By that time, HHackerH (Keith for friends) was ranting about anybody
being able to get as big a TN he wanted if he gave it a hard try.
So when our team met with a strange shaman/mage that held a strange
technique of learning spells at -2 learning TN (and some other obscure
stuff on force increase and spell resistance our "evil" GM seems to have
pillaged from "Threats"-I dread the day when we are going to pay for
that boon!), I said what the heck!
I decided on a force 11 spiritblast. It was as near the "number 12" cap
as I could possibly get. I made a force 9 astral quest,designed the
formula for fixed serious damage, and sat down to make the roll after
being istructed by the mysterious mage/shaman. After rolling 19 dice (10
for magic and 9 from the quest) for five times (using up 10 karma pool)
against a modified TN 20, I managed to roll 5 16s, 2 17s, and on my
last roll I finally roll my third 6 for an 18. I now only neede a 2+ to
get the long awaited superspell.
My game master evilly looked at me with his infamous jinx look and
smiled...
I looked back at him with my infamous "you can't get me!I am invincible
Mr Bond!" look and promised that if I rolled a "one" I would strangle
him!
I then rolled the die and procceded to roll a "one"!
After a brief chase around the gaming table and a aborted first degree
by strangulation, he promised to let me reroll the die if I burned a
permanent karma pool, which I procedded to do making it my third one
after the other two I burned at the arcology). I rolled a four and he
got away with his life and most of his bodily functions intact. :)
Thus i have my precarious spirit blast 11, which I don't use very often
cause I 've seen him scribble some obscure remarks behind his screen
every time I cast it like he's keeping a score or something, making all
kinds of funny noises like suppressed laughter or something!

If the spirit is force 8 or less I use my version of the spell at force
6.

Further Reading

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