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Message no. 1
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:01:43 +0100
I've got a new question :
A spell (or a critter power) creates its effect by passing energy from
astral plane to physical one. In the case of a manipulation spell, this is
done at the caster and for other spells, at the target.
My question is why could a spell affect astral plane (exemples are mana
barrier, astral static ...)?
If it is possible, what make different spells from different categories
have the same effect ?


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:56:11 GMT
William Gallas writes

> A spell (or a critter power) creates its effect by passing energy from
> astral plane to physical one. In the case of a manipulation spell, this is
> done at the caster and for other spells, at the target.
In the case of some (most damaging manipulations) this is true but
other manipulations, eg control actions must ground at the target.

> My question is why could a spell affect astral plane (exemples are mana
> barrier, astral static ...)?
It's magic. I mean if you and your target are both astrall=y
projecting a manabolt affects your targets astral form !

> If it is possible, what make different spells from different categories
> have the same effect ?
>
Multiple ways of approaching generating the same effect, want to get
from city A to B, well walk, taxi, bus, train, plane? same with magic
you want to blow him up, well cook his mind (manabolt), body
(powerbolt), cover him in fire (flame thrower) to burn him up, or
blow him up in flams (fire bolt - combat spell with elemental fire).
The latter two have a similar effect (charred corpse) but one attacks
from insdie and burns as a secondard effect, the other burns from
outside and kills as a secondary effect (effect of enough burns on
living target). Note the game mechanics are different though.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:13:43 +0100
A 09:56 31/10/97 GMT, vous avez écrit :
>> My question is why could a spell affect astral plane (exemples are mana
>> barrier, astral static ...)?
>It's magic. I mean if you and your target are both astrall=y
>projecting a manabolt affects your targets astral form !

Not so simple. If you're in astral plane, every spell you launch will
damage an astral being, based on the spell's drain. So, a manabolt affects
the astral form but powerbolt too !

>> If it is possible, what make different spells from different categories
>> have the same effect ?
>>
>Multiple ways of approaching generating the same effect, want to get
>from city A to B, well walk, taxi, bus, train, plane? same with magic
>you want to blow him up, well cook his mind (manabolt), body
>(powerbolt), cover him in fire (flame thrower) to burn him up, or
>blow him up in flams (fire bolt - combat spell with elemental fire).
>The latter two have a similar effect (charred corpse) but one attacks
>from insdie and burns as a secondard effect, the other burns from
>outside and kills as a secondary effect (effect of enough burns on
>living target). Note the game mechanics are different though.

You're describing the way the same energy (spell category) can do different
effects. This is done by putting the mana (magical energy if you prefer) in
the mental pattern of the spell (because magicians do not know how to do a
physical pattern in SR as opposed to ED) which makes the spell manifest in
the physical world.
My point was how this is possible in stral plane where the spell cannot
manifest because it is already in astral ! In other words, if effect of a
spell is obtained by the passage of energy from astral plane to physcical
plane (which is the way magic works in SR), how could it affect the astral
plane where its manifestation is astral raw energy ?

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:24:58 GMT
William GallasWrites

> >It's magic. I mean if you and your target are both astrall=y
> >projecting a manabolt affects your targets astral form !
>
> Not so simple. If you're in astral plane, every spell you launch will
> damage an astral being,
exactly, i just used one example.

> based on the spell's drain.
No if it hits the target it does its standard damage, the drain code
is only used for astral combat, ie if someone intecepts the spell on
its way to the target.

>So, a manabolt affects
> the astral form but powerbolt too !
>
so i only listed one example. But correct.

>
> You're describing the way the same energy (spell category) can do different
> effects.
true.
> This is done by putting the mana (magical energy if you prefer) in
> the mental pattern of the spell (because magicians do not know how to do a
> physical pattern in SR as opposed to ED) which makes the spell manifest in
> the physical world.
in whatever place it was targeted at, where do you get this specific
physical all the time from????

> My point was how this is possible in stral plane where the spell cannot
> manifest because it is already in astral !
but it doesn't need to manifest. The only time spells have to
manifest or ground to the physical is if they are to hurt purely
physical targets, grounding to the physical is not required 'for the
spell to work' only for cases where the target is not available on
the astral plane.

> In other words, if effect of a
> spell is obtained by the passage of energy from astral plane to physcical
> plane (which is the way magic works in SR),
the 'to physical plane' is only required oif the target is purely
physical, i know the quote in GR2 may include this but thats because
they are demonstrating the most common and complex case of a non
percieving magician chucking a spell at a mundane 'person' type
target (eg security guard)

> how could it affect the astral
> plane where its manifestation is astral raw energy ?
>
Becasue its astral energy! and on the astral plane.

Mark
>
Message no. 5
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:02:21 +0100
>> based on the spell's drain.
>No if it hits the target it does its standard damage, the drain code
>is only used for astral combat, ie if someone intecepts the spell on
>its way to the target.

I do not agree. It's true it is for astral combat but not only for someone
intercepting a spell, it's everytime you cast a spell at someone in astral
plane (which is astral combat).

>> This is done by putting the mana (magical energy if you prefer) in
>> the mental pattern of the spell (because magicians do not know how to do a
>> physical pattern in SR as opposed to ED) which makes the spell manifest in
>> the physical world.
>in whatever place it was targeted at, where do you get this specific
>physical all the time from????

See below.

>> My point was how this is possible in stral plane where the spell cannot
>> manifest because it is already in astral !
>but it doesn't need to manifest. The only time spells have to
>manifest or ground to the physical is if they are to hurt purely
>physical targets, grounding to the physical is not required 'for the
>spell to work' only for cases where the target is not available on
>the astral plane.

Again, I do not agree. Raw astral energy has no natural effect except the
damaging one (this is why it hurts someone in astral plane and why there is
a drain). If you want an effect, you need a cause.
Let's take the exemple of a levitate person spell. It is a mana spell and
it has a physical effect. Effect on the physical plane is obtained because
the spell energy is taking effect. This physical action of the spell is
what I call the physical manifestation of the spell.
So, what if the spell needs only an astral effect ?
You seem to think that after you have crafted the raw energy with the
pattern of the spell, you can launch it in astral to do some effect.
But it is said in PAoE that powers function only in the physical plane (a
fire elemental can't do a flame aura in astral) and that it functions like
magic. If astral energy is always harming in astral, what would make it
different for it to have an effect. You cast the mana barrier spell, the
energy walks its way to destination during which it is harming and then
*SHAZAM !* it has an other effect.
IMHO, to change it's effect, it needs to physically manifest.

>> In other words, if effect of a
>> spell is obtained by the passage of energy from astral plane to physcical
>> plane (which is the way magic works in SR),
>the 'to physical plane' is only required oif the target is purely
>physical, i know the quote in GR2 may include this but thats because
>they are demonstrating the most common and complex case of a non
>percieving magician chucking a spell at a mundane 'person' type
>target (eg security guard)

IMHO, it's an exemple to show how magic works.

>> how could it affect the astral
>> plane where its manifestation is astral raw energy ?
>>
>Becasue its astral energy! and on the astral plane.

No very convincing.

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:08:45 GMT
William Gallas writes

> >> based on the spell's drain.
> >No if it hits the target it does its standard damage, the drain code
> >is only used for astral combat, ie if someone intecepts the spell on
> >its way to the target.
>
> I do not agree. It's true it is for astral combat but not only for someone
> intercepting a spell, it's everytime you cast a spell at someone in astral
> plane (which is astral combat).
>
no its them getting hit by a spell if they don't intercept it IMHO.
This is another one for SR3!!!! i agree both of are valid
interpretaions of the book IMHO.

>
> Again, I do not agree. Raw astral energy has no natural effect except the
> damaging one (this is why it hurts someone in astral plane and why there is
> a drain).
but its a spell....

> If you want an effect, you need a cause.
> Let's take the exemple of a levitate person spell. It is a mana spell and
> it has a physical effect.
fine
> Effect on the physical plane is obtained because
> the spell energy is taking effect. This physical action of the spell is
> what I call the physical manifestation of the spell.
> So, what if the spell needs only an astral effect ?
no problem but you seem to think that because some spells produce a
physical effect then all MUST do so in order to function, it is the
latter i disagree with.

> You seem to think that after you have crafted the raw energy with the
> pattern of the spell, you can launch it in astral to do some effect.
> But it is said in PAoE that powers function only in the physical plane
some i think

> (a
> fire elemental can't do a flame aura in astral) and that it functions like
> magic.
because that power works by creating magical matter which is like a
damaging manipulation and has a physical component. Are you trying to
tell me a Wraith cannot use its compulsion on an astrally projecting
magician????

> IMHO, to change it's effect, it needs to physically manifest.
>
where do the rules say that? specifically this one line.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:29:58 +0100
>> You seem to think that after you have crafted the raw energy with the
>> pattern of the spell, you can launch it in astral to do some effect.
>> But it is said in PAoE that powers function only in the physical plane
>some i think

All.

>> (a
>> fire elemental can't do a flame aura in astral) and that it functions like
>> magic.
>because that power works by creating magical matter which is like a
>damaging manipulation and has a physical component. Are you trying to
>tell me a Wraith cannot use its compulsion on an astrally projecting
>magician????

In my game, this is not allowed. For the reasons I gave in an earlier post.

>> IMHO, to change it's effect, it needs to physically manifest.
>>
>where do the rules say that? specifically this one line.

It's the conclusion of what was said before.
I know the SR rules (quite well). In my first post, I wanted an explanation
of the phenomenon. My objective is to have a clear and logical background
for magic in SR universe. Then, the rules can be changed to suit the course
of the universe.
It seems our interpretation of SR magic is not quite the same. Perhaps
yours is better than mine, so could you please tell me what makes a spell
manifest its effects (in astral or physical plane because you seem think
it's possible in each one)?

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:37:27 GMT
William Gallas writes
> >> You seem to think that after you have crafted the raw energy with the
> >> pattern of the spell, you can launch it in astral to do some effect.
> >> But it is said in PAoE that powers function only in the physical plane
> >some i think
>
> All.
>
> I know the SR rules (quite well).
agreed.

> In my first post, I wanted an explanation
> of the phenomenon. My objective is to have a clear and logical background
> for magic in SR universe. Then, the rules can be changed to suit the course
> of the universe.
> It seems our interpretation of SR magic is not quite the same.
given the vaugeness of some things nothing new.

> Perhaps
> yours is better than mine, so could you please tell me what makes a spell
> manifest its effects (in astral or physical plane because you seem think
> it's possible in each one)?
>
At this point i really need to do some serious cross checking with
PNAE, SR2 and GR2 as i will admit deadlock till i can explicitly
check some things, given this account is at work and my books are at
home this could pose a few problems. If you can double check a few
things we might get further.

On the Wraith matter, i should check that far too long since i read
the book but it is really really silly if the critter cannot use
mental powers at least against an astral target because whats the
difference, there still a living mind there, ok so its astrally
projectd out of the body not inside the body but the physical body
has nothing at all to do with powers like that one.

--

oh well, sorry but without books to check i have reached the limits
of what i can be sure of from memory. [a coomon cuase of huge
discussion on the list], if you want more checking i will try if you
like but i cannot guarantee to find the time required.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:58:14 +0100
>At this point i really need to do some serious cross checking with
>PNAE, SR2 and GR2 as i will admit deadlock till i can explicitly
>check some things, given this account is at work and my books are at
>home this could pose a few problems. If you can double check a few
>things we might get further.

I'm at work too ... Perhaps we could continue monday ?

>On the Wraith matter, i should check that far too long since i read
>the book but it is really really silly if the critter cannot use
>mental powers at least against an astral target because whats the
>difference, there still a living mind there, ok so its astrally
>projectd out of the body not inside the body but the physical body
>has nothing at all to do with powers like that one.

I'll verify this point.

>oh well, sorry but without books to check i have reached the limits
>of what i can be sure of from memory. [a coomon cuase of huge
>discussion on the list], if you want more checking i will try if you
>like but i cannot guarantee to find the time required.

OK

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:30:33 GMT
William Gallas writes
>
> I'm at work too ... Perhaps we could continue monday ?
>
ok i will schedule some checking for the weekend, chances of it
happening not good but we'll see.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:08:33 -0500
In a message dated 97-10-31 04:00:04 EST, wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> I've got a new question :

Maybe we've got a new answer Cobra ;)

> A spell (or a critter power) creates its effect by passing energy from
> astral plane to physical one. In the case of a manipulation spell, this is
> done at the caster and for other spells, at the target.

Sort of, I am following your POV at least.

> My question is why could a spell affect astral plane (exemples are mana
> barrier, astral static ...)?

If it was designed that way. Energy exists in different states, even Astral
Energy. Large (let's call it Gross categories) groups of energies relate to
targets in different fashion (Combat, Detection, Manipulation, etcetera).
And if the energies are connected in some fashion (as in the rules for
Anchoring and/or Quickening), then even those states of being are altered.

> If it is possible, what make different spells from different categories
> have the same effect ?

It is referred to as "Parallel Development." It happens in nearly anything
that mankind thinks up for itself, even in fictional material.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:45:22 GMT
William Gallas writes

chop:

Ok i have been and done some digging on the discussion we had Friday.

PAE makes no comments concering the use of critter powers on the
astral plane, however the Grimoire (p87 GR2 - dual beings on the
astral) notes that the special powers of dual beings eg petrifying
gaze and flame projection operate on the interaction of the physical
and astral components of the sritter and may not be used on purely
astral targets.
Similarly tyhe right hand side of the page makes the same comment
about spirits.

Ok so 'by yhe book' these are not allowed but none of the examples
covers purely mental powers, i still so no reason why thngs like
fear, and control powers have anything to do whit the physical plane
so in my game at least being a projecting magician is no defence.

Any chance of clearing this up in SR3??
-----

Spells and astral combat: (force)Drainlevel, P147 SR2 is for astral
comabt which P147 notes under the heading 'astral combat' (in bold)
works like melee combat, so only for melee atacks, the rules note
that 'the nature of astral space precludes ranged attacks'.

However : P148, 'spells and astral space' specifically lists the
astral damge codes (drain based) for spells as for the case that they
are intercepted and fought in astral combat.
Last paragraph : 'a magician in astral space cannot cast a spell at
another spell but he can cast one at another astral being',...
'A sleep spell cannot be used to damage a magical item but it would
work against a magician in astral space'.

This section makes no reference to spells working any differently and
notes that physical spells ground out so therefore must work as epr
the physical plane rules (because they are hitting the physical body
just as if the had been cast by a magician on the physical plane at a
physical target).

Therefore i see no reason that a sleep spell doesn't continue to do
(Force)M stun vs a projected magician just like it does to that pack
of gangers.


----
Note for 3rd edition! Tidy this up, i know the system and had to leaf
through SR2 nd GR2 in order to find all of this in print. (please
sort things out, i know its difficult, mostly becuaes there are so
many cases of what happens if i use this with that in the magic
system that nobody had ever thought of when the book was written but).

comments.

Mark
Message no. 13
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:56:22 +0100
A 13:45 03/11/97 GMT, vous avez écrit :
>William Gallas writes
>
>chop:
>
>Ok i have been and done some digging on the discussion we had Friday.
>...

I didn't have time to look at this this week end (can I write that ?) but
I'll try to do this evening. But at the moment, it seems quite reasonnable.

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:35:52 GMT
William Gallas writes
> >Ok i have been and done some digging on the discussion we had Friday.
> >...
>
> I didn't have time to look at this this week end (can I write that ?)
usually 'weekend' as one word otherwise fine.

> I'll try to do this evening. But at the moment, it seems quite reasonnable.
>
>
Ok. i'll await comment when you get time

Mark
Message no. 15
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:37:36 +0100
>PAE makes no comments concering the use of critter powers on the
>astral plane, however the Grimoire (p87 GR2 - dual beings on the
>astral) notes that the special powers of dual beings eg petrifying
>gaze and flame projection operate on the interaction of the physical
>and astral components of the sritter and may not be used on purely
>astral targets.
>Similarly tyhe right hand side of the page makes the same comment
>about spirits.
>
>Ok so 'by yhe book' these are not allowed but none of the examples
>covers purely mental powers, i still so no reason why thngs like
>fear, and control powers have anything to do whit the physical plane
>so in my game at least being a projecting magician is no defence.

On the right hand side of the page, there is no limitation to the powers
being physical or mental so I think it applies to the two.

>Any chance of clearing this up in SR3??

Let's hope !

>-----
>
>Spells and astral combat: (force)Drainlevel, P147 SR2 is for astral
>comabt which P147 notes under the heading 'astral combat' (in bold)
>works like melee combat, so only for melee atacks, the rules note
>that 'the nature of astral space precludes ranged attacks'.
>
>However : P148, 'spells and astral space' specifically lists the
>astral damge codes (drain based) for spells as for the case that they
>are intercepted and fought in astral combat.
>Last paragraph : 'a magician in astral space cannot cast a spell at
>another spell but he can cast one at another astral being',...
>'A sleep spell cannot be used to damage a magical item but it would
>work against a magician in astral space'.
>
>This section makes no reference to spells working any differently and
>notes that physical spells ground out so therefore must work as epr
>the physical plane rules (because they are hitting the physical body
>just as if the had been cast by a magician on the physical plane at a
>physical target).
>
>Therefore i see no reason that a sleep spell doesn't continue to do
>(Force)M stun vs a projected magician just like it does to that pack
>of gangers.

I found a few things about this :
- GR2 : On p.110 (How spells work), it is written "... The result is a
spell construct on the etheric plane ... 'programmed' by the spell formula"
which is the first part of the casting. Then "When a spell reaches its
target, it creates the effect the magician desires by transferring astral
energy into the physical plane. The effects of this energy transfer depend
on the spell's design: it may create or destroy, heal or harm". This
paragraphe is about all spells and not only the ones affecting someone.
- SR2 : On p.148 (Spells), it is written on casting a spell in astral plane
"Such a spell cannot be intercepted and only spells that would affect the
thing or being physically will work." Then "a sleep spell cannot be used to
damage a magical item, but it would work against a magician in astral
space. Mana spells only affect the astral target. Physical spells groung
out and may affect others."

So, it seems there is a contradiction between theses citations. As a
conclusion, I will give what is sure :
* Spells are astral energy shaped by the spell formula. It then makes its
way to the target via astral space.
* During this travel, it can be attacked (if the conditions are satisfied).
In this case, its damage depends on drain.

Then we can choose between these two options :
* You can cast spells in the astral. These spells funtion only if they
affect the target physically. Mana spells only affect the spiritual part of
a being. If the target is dual being (like a focus), you need to use a
physical spell.
It is not clear if the spell affects the physical body or the spiritual
one. In the second case, it would mean you can be invisible in astral plane
! which I do not like. In this case, I do not understand how the spell
creates the effect. Mental powers act in the same way as mana spells.
* You can cast spells in the astral but they do not have any effect except
damaging a spiritual being. In order to get the spell's effect, the
spiritual energy needs transfer into physical plane. That means that if you
ground, you get the spell's effect but not if the spell is targeted at a
projected magician. To affect the astral plane (like mana barrier or astral
static), you create a physical effect which acts in astral plane. This
option limits why you can do in astral space which I like, but you can
choose the other option. Notes that with this option you need a physical
component to get the spell's effect so you can't ground quickened spell but
you can with the first one considering that a spell arising in astral can
affect the physical world (mana barrier). Powers cannot function in astral
with this option.

>----
>Note for 3rd edition! Tidy this up, i know the system and had to leaf
>through SR2 nd GR2 in order to find all of this in print. (please
>sort things out, i know its difficult, mostly becuaes there are so
>many cases of what happens if i use this with that in the magic
>system that nobody had ever thought of when the book was written but).

Note 2 : Please clarify how a spell works in each cases without game
techniques for everyone to use them in his or her own system.

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 16
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:37:20 GMT
William Gallas writes

This could get a bit long to keep things in context.
> >
> >Ok so 'by the book' these are not allowed but none of the examples
> >covers purely mental powers, i still so no reason why thngs like
> >fear, and control powers have anything to do whit the physical plane
> >so in my game at least being a projecting magician is no defence.
>
> On the right hand side of the page, there is no limitation to the powers
> being physical or mental so I think it applies to the two.
>
I'd noticed, so as i say above you are right (though wrong book
claimed, big deal) but i still disagree with FASA.

> >Spells and astral combat: (force)Drainlevel, P147 SR2 is for astral
> >combat which P147
> >However : P148, 'spells and astral space' specifically lists the
> >Last paragraph : 'a magician in astral space cannot cast a spell at
> >another spell but he can cast one at another astral being',...
> >'A sleep spell cannot be used to damage a magical item but it would
> >This section makes no reference to spells working any differently and
> >notes that physical spells ground out so therefore must work as epr
> >the physical plane rules
[above trimmed somewhat]

> I found a few things about this :
> - GR2 : On p.110 (How spells work), it is written "... The result is a
> spell construct on the etheric plane ... 'programmed' by the spell formula"
> which is the first part of the casting. Then "When a spell reaches its
> target, it creates the effect the magician desires by transferring astral
> energy into the physical plane. The effects of this energy transfer depend
> on the spell's design: it may create or destroy, heal or harm". This
> paragraphe is about all spells and not only the ones affecting someone.
> - SR2 : On p.148 (Spells), it is written on casting a spell in astral plane
> "Such a spell cannot be intercepted and only spells that would affect the
> thing or being physically will work." Then "a sleep spell cannot be used to
> damage a magical item, but it would work against a magician in astral
> space. Mana spells only affect the astral target. Physical spells groung
> out and may affect others."
>
Note that under the 'astral physical symmetry/repercussion notes (why
damage from the astral and physical planes also appears on the other
and why projected magicians still only have one set of damage tracks)
that spells striking a projecting magician all ground into his/her
physical body, but only physical ones may spread to area effect on
the physical plane.

> So, it seems there is a contradiction between theses citations. As a
> conclusion, I will give what is sure :
ok. point by point.
> * Spells are astral energy shaped by the spell formula. It then makes its
> way to the target via astral space.
Fine, noting that damaging manipulations are a special case which
also travel in the physical plane at the same time.
> * During this travel, it can be attacked (if the conditions are satisfied).
> In this case, its damage depends on drain.
>
Agreed.

> Then we can choose between these two options :
> * You can cast spells in the astral. These spells funtion only if they
> affect the target physically. Mana spells only affect the spiritual part of
> a being. If the target is dual being (like a focus), you need to use a
> physical spell.
fine.

> It is not clear if the spell affects the physical body or the spiritual
> one. In the second case, it would mean you can be invisible in astral plane
> ! which I do not like.
spell types : Physical affect physical, mana affect spiritual. Sure
you can turn 'invisible' on the astral appart from a few problems
:magicians who are astrally projecting may not sustain spells (i
think thats under spell duration, it is a FASA rule), ok so you are
invisible to 'visible light' fine i'm assensing your aura, big deal!
(the invisibility spell affects vision (either the regular vision
part of the brain (invisibilty) or the light rays themselves
(improved [also works against technology]). Disreagard (Awakenings)
may work because it makes the observer ignore you (ie doen't affect
his abilty to see you so not actually invisibilty)

> In this case, I do not understand how the spell
> creates the effect. Mental powers act in the same way as mana spells.
Which is my basis for why i think they should work against astral
targets (despite FASA's comments on the subject)

> * You can cast spells in the astral but they do not have any effect except
> damaging a spiritual being. In order to get the spell's effect, the
> spiritual energy needs transfer into physical plane. That means that if you
> ground, you get the spell's effect but not if the spell is targeted at a
> projected magician.
But by repercussion the effects always 'ground out' just they won't
affect anything except the target in most cases, remember even a
manabolt throen by a physical mage at a sammie hits his aura and
'grounds' into his physical body from his spiritual body.

> To affect the astral plane (like mana barrier or astral
> static), you create a physical effect which acts in astral plane. This
> option limits why you can do in astral space which I like, but you can
> choose the other option. Notes that with this option you need a physical
> component to get the spell's effect so you can't ground quickened spell but
> you can with the first one considering that a spell arising in astral can
> affect the physical world (mana barrier). Powers cannot function in astral
> with this option.
>
This section i don't understand well enough to comment on.

Mark
Message no. 17
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:25:32 +0100
>> To affect the astral plane (like mana barrier or astral
>> static), you create a physical effect which acts in astral plane. This
>> option limits why you can do in astral space which I like, but you can
>> choose the other option. Notes that with this option you need a physical
>> component to get the spell's effect so you can't ground quickened spell but
>> you can with the first one considering that a spell arising in astral can
>> affect the physical world (mana barrier). Powers cannot function in astral
>> with this option.
>>
>This section i don't understand well enough to comment on.

Oops ! Please excuse me for my poor english.
What I tried to say was that a spell needs (remember it was the second
option) to transfer in physical plane to create its effect. So, in order to
affect etheric plane like mana barrier or astral static do, there must be
an effect on the physical plane which will cause an astral effect. This
makes the design of such a spell really difficult.
The fact (in this option) that you need the spell to transfer in the
physical plane to have an effect is the reason why you cannot ground a
quickened spell (with this option). The fact that (in the first option) you
can get an direct effect in astral plane with a spell permits you to ground
through a quickened spell.

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:30:09 GMT
William Gallas writes
>
> Oops ! Please excuse me for my poor english.
thats fine.

> What I tried to say was that a spell needs (remember it was the second
> option) to transfer in physical plane to create its effect. So, in order to
> affect etheric plane like mana barrier or astral static do, there must be
> an effect on the physical plane which will cause an astral effect. This
> makes the design of such a spell really difficult.
yes.
I don't like it but.

> The fact (in this option) that you need the spell to transfer in the
> physical plane to have an effect is the reason why you cannot ground a
> quickened spell (with this option). The fact that (in the first option) you
> can get an direct effect in astral plane with a spell permits you to ground
> through a quickened spell.
>
I don't see why this is so, if fact i would have though it more
supported you cannot ground throught them first option while this
option would suggest you could (the requirement for a physical
manifestation of a spell offering something (that physical
manifestation of the spell) for you to ground into).

Either way the 'spells may not target spells' rather does for
grounding through Quickenings (as does the result of a couple of HUGE
debates here in the past that shredded the rules looking for quotes
even worse than we are here).
Further if FASAmike stands after further queries by the forwarded
comments he made ok masking i forsee the end of any unmasked
quickenings anyway (that haven't had so much karma dropped in them to
armour them up that they are horribly huge anyway).

Mark
Message no. 19
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:51:28 +0100
>I don't see why this is so, if fact i would have though it more
>supported you cannot ground throught them first option while this
>option would suggest you could (the requirement for a physical
>manifestation of a spell offering something (that physical
>manifestation of the spell) for you to ground into).

I didn't thought about targeting the physical effect of the spell nor the
spell itself but the karma used to quicken the spell (which is spiritual
IMHO).

>Further if FASAmike stands after further queries by the forwarded
>comments he made ok masking i forsee the end of any unmasked
>quickenings anyway (that haven't had so much karma dropped in them to
>armour them up that they are horribly huge anyway).

Do you mean masking using a quest or 'passive' masking i.e. for a number of
points equal to the initiate rank. In the second case, the major problem is
to have enough initiation ranks. Karma to boost the defense of a quickened
spell is easier to get than karma to raise initiation rank.

>Mark

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 20
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells acting in astral
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:42:26 GMT
William Gallas writes

> I didn't thought about targeting the physical effect of the spell nor the
> spell itself but the karma used to quicken the spell (which is spiritual
> IMHO).
ok.

> >Further if FASAmike stands after further queries by the forwarded
> >comments he made ok masking i forsee the end of any unmasked
> >quickenings anyway (that haven't had so much karma dropped in them to
> >armour them up that they are horribly huge anyway).
>
> Do you mean masking using a quest or 'passive' masking i.e. for a number of
> points equal to the initiate rank.
masked using the latter, given a force 1 quicened spell would take
one masking slot to mask while a force 1 spell locked spell would
need 2 (lock + spell)

> In the second case, the major problem is
> to have enough initiation ranks.
You don't say! finding enough DIFFERENT spells you want to use up 10
initiation grades is easy enough as it is!

> Karma to boost the defense of a quickened
> spell is easier to get than karma to raise initiation rank.
>
True, but just how much do you like the wraiths, cops, Azzies, guys
that think they can 'beat the hopttest magician in the west' a head
load of unmasked rating 6 quickenings will attract eh.

Mark

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