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From:	Eric Lemme e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:26:12 -0500

Message no. 1 hi All, I have been trying to come up with a list of spells that you
would not mind having at force 1 here is what I have so far.

Combat Spells
none

Detection Spells
none
need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information

Health Spells
heathly glow :)
hibernate (needing 4 successes do you have to have this spell at a
minimum of force 4 for it to work?)
increased reflexes (why this one works at force one is beyond me,
seems a more reasonable spells would allow +1 initiative dice for
every 2 successes)

Illusions
invisibility
improved invisibility
stealth

Control
none

Elemental
all (because you choose the damage level, anything that inflicts deadly
damage can hurt. Dont try it on trolls)

Telekinetics
levitate (flying slow might be handy)

Transformations
none

So did I miss any or are there ones on the list that might not belong?

From:	NightRain nightrain@***.com.au
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:59:04 +1000

Message no. 2 ----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Lemme <e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu>
To: shadowrun newslist <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:26 AM
Subject: Spells and Force Level

> Combat Spells
> none

Good idea. All resisted.

> Detection Spells
> none
> need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information

Also determines the range of the spell.

> Health Spells
> heathly glow :)

Yep. :)

> hibernate (needing 4 successes do you have to have this spell at a
> minimum of force 4 for it to work?)

Even if it doesn't say so, I beleive it is meant to.

> increased reflexes (why this one works at force one is beyond me,
> seems a more reasonable spells would allow +1 initiative dice for
> every 2 successes)

Per the rules and errata, this spell should work at force 1. Though as you
have done, I limit it to 1 dice per two successes, and cap successes at the
spell's force.

> Illusions
> invisibility
> improved invisibility
> stealth

Nope. All of these spells are indirect illusions. Indirect illusions are
all resisted spells. Force 1 therefore is usless.

> Control
> none
>
> Elemental
> all (because you choose the damage level, anything that inflicts deadly
> damage can hurt. Dont try it on trolls)

For just that reason yes. Though IMO you are better taking them at high
force and casting them with M damage or something. Higher power level
means you can beat hardened armour and can more guarantee damage against
those aforementioned trolls :)

> Telekinetics
> levitate (flying slow might be handy)

Might be. But then so might be flying fast. Take it at high force, cast
it at low if you need to.

> Transformations
> none
>
> So did I miss any or are there ones on the list that might not belong?

I'd say that most of them don't belong. The two that really do, should
have some sort of errata to fix them so they don't. Force 1 spells should
be like rating 1 skills. Nearly useless.

NightRain.

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From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:18:17 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 3 "NightRain" <nightrain@***.com.au> writes:
> > Illusions
> > invisibility
> > improved invisibility
> > stealth
>
> Nope. All of these spells are indirect illusions. Indirect illusions are
> all resisted spells. Force 1 therefore is usless.

Actually, these aren't completely worthless. Your TN is 4,
and theirs is Force. If you throw everything into it, you'll get ~6
successes + totemic/focus modifiers. They'll need to roll 6 2s on
intelligence in order to break through.
Get the 7th success and even most runners will have problems.

Mark

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:08:47 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 8/30/1999 6:30:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu writes:

> hi All, I have been trying to come up with a list of spells that you
> would not mind having at force 1 here is what I have so far.
>
> Combat Spells
> none

Really? Your games must not have many Wards and such then. Of course, I
could be misinterpreting what it is your saying.

> Detection Spells
> none
> need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information

True.

> Health Spells
> heathly glow :)
> hibernate (needing 4 successes do you have to have this spell at a
> minimum of force 4 for it to work?)

You don't always need 4 successes, but you do get the idea.

> increased reflexes (why this one works at force one is beyond me,
> seems a more reasonable spells would allow +1 initiative dice for
> every 2 successes)

Yeah, I do agree, this one is something that seems to slip beyond the grasp
of understanding and consistent "magical mechanics."

> Illusions
> invisibility
> improved invisibility
> stealth

Hmmm...I was always under the belief that these spells had their "ceiling
limit" placed onto them by their spell force as well.

> Control
> none
>
> Elemental
> all (because you choose the damage level, anything that inflicts deadly
> damage can hurt. Dont try it on trolls)
>
> Telekinetics
> levitate (flying slow might be handy)

It could be handy, yes.

> Transformations
> none
>
> So did I miss any or are there ones on the list that might not belong?

I honestly am not sure.

-K

From:	Wolfchild nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:10:29 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 5 > hi All, I have been trying to come up with a list of spells that you
> would not mind having at force 1 here is what I have so far.
[snipper]

> heathly glow :)
[snipper]

I don't know, I kinda like the idea of having Healthy Glow at force 6. Of
course this is from the same guy with an AD&D fremlin that, when presented
with the one and only opportunity to save the world by pulling a favor
with a dragon to use one of the items in his hoard, he promptly requested
a bubble-wand instead (you know, the ones where you dip it in a glass of
soapy water and blow through it to make bubbles). A nice shiny one . . .
with pretty red sparkles. The dragon felt sorry for him and made it
magically produce its own bubbles so he wouldn't need the glass of soapy
water.

A few days later, the world ended. But the fremlin was happy! (I dare say
that the other players were not quite so happy. Oops! :) )

Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque|"Let us spend one day as
antiquam amoves?" -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus|deliberately as Nature. . .
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--|and not be thrown off the
"There are nights when the wolves are silent|track by every nutshell and
and only the moon howls." -George Carlin |mosquito's wing that falls on
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu> |the rails." -H.D.Thoreau

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:23:44 -0500

Message no. 6 Eric Lemme wrote:
>
> hi All, I have been trying to come up with a list of spells that you
> would not mind having at force 1 here is what I have so far.

I had a long discussion with another friend and shadowrun GM about this
very topic. He thought that the Force should be related to the effect
extensively while I was liberal in my need for rules and could usually
come up with reasons to have higher force.

*snip spell categories I agree with*

> Health Spells
> heathly glow :)
> hibernate (needing 4 successes do you have to have this spell at a
> minimum of force 4 for it to work?)
> increased reflexes (why this one works at force one is beyond me,
> seems a more reasonable spells would allow +1 initiative dice for
> every 2 successes)

While this does work at Force 1, remember the beauty of Dispelling.
Dispelling is an option to magicians in SR3 that was not in SR2 and so a
lot of players either forget they can do it or overlook it. An opponent
spellcaster rolls Sorcery + Spell Pool against the Force of the spell.
Each success cancels a success generated by the original casting.
Extremely useful against spells that have high target numbers to cast
and are sustained (Increased Reflexes, Armor, Barrier, etc...).

Dispelling a magician's Increased Reflexes on the last pass of a Combat
Turn is very nasty indeed.

> Illusions
> invisibility
> improved invisibility
> stealth

(Mark Shieh adressed this and I respond in his post.)

> Elemental
> all (because you choose the damage level, anything that inflicts deadly
> damage can hurt. Dont try it on trolls)

A Force 1 Deadly Flamethrower would still have a drain of 3D (1/2
rounded down = 0, +1 from the spell, plus +2 for staging the drain
beyond Deadly p. 191). Last I checked, most magicians don't have a
Willpower of 8. That means you'll be spending some of that precious
Spell Pool to resist the drain and the big tough sammies are going to be
able to shrug off the damage. Not my choice.

Now let's look at a Force 5 Medium Flamethrower. The drain is going to
be 3S and it's going to have a much better chance of injuring someone
and you are going to have a much better chance of taking no drain.
Sounds like I'd go for a higher force on the elemental spells.

> Telekinetics
> levitate (flying slow might be handy)

The force does limit the speed at which you can travel. For a lot of
applications that's not important, but you are limiting the versatility
of the spell by opting for a lower force. Also, Dispelling can be real
nasty a couple floors off the ground.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:28:08 -0500

Message no. 7 Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> "NightRain" <nightrain@***.com.au> writes:
> > > Illusions
> > > invisibility
> > > improved invisibility
> > > stealth
> >
> > Nope. All of these spells are indirect illusions. Indirect illusions are
> > all resisted spells. Force 1 therefore is usless.
>
> Actually, these aren't completely worthless. Your TN is 4,
> and theirs is Force. If you throw everything into it, you'll get ~6
> successes + totemic/focus modifiers. They'll need to roll 6 2s on
> intelligence in order to break through.
> Get the 7th success and even most runners will have problems.

I don't like game mechanics that make average thugs have no chance of
spotting/defeating the runners' tactics. Even if they only have a 1%
chance, I'm happy. That's why I use a different system for illusions.

Magician casts spell. Viewer makes an INT roll with a TN of [Force +
successes].

Some people may think it's too easy to see through the illusion, but
coupled with some Stealth it makes it very effective.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:01:04 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 8 Lars Ericson <lericson@****.edu> writes:
> Mark A Shieh wrote:
> > "NightRain" <nightrain@***.com.au> writes:
[useful spells at force 1]
> > > > Illusions
> > > > invisibility
> > > > improved invisibility
> > > > stealth

> > Actually, these aren't completely worthless. Your TN is 4,
> > and theirs is Force. If you throw everything into it, you'll get ~6
> > successes + totemic/focus modifiers. They'll need to roll 6 2s on
> > intelligence in order to break through.
> > Get the 7th success and even most runners will have problems.
>
> I don't like game mechanics that make average thugs have no chance of
> spotting/defeating the runners' tactics. Even if they only have a 1%
> chance, I'm happy. That's why I use a different system for illusions.

I suppose, but it seems to work fine as is. I have no
problems with making it difficult for a group of thugs without magic
support to have no chance. Astral backup or ultrasound can take down
the spell rather trivially, and any security system worth its nuyen
will have methods of detecting and dealing with invisible intruders.
In addition, the mage has difficulty concealing more than one person
with a force 1 spell.

Mark

From:	Eric Lemme e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:59:42 -0500

Message no. 9 Lars Ericson wrote:
>
> Eric Lemme wrote:
> >
> > hi All, I have been trying to come up with a list of spells that you
> > would not mind having at force 1 here is what I have so far.
>
> I had a long discussion with another friend and shadowrun GM about this
> very topic. He thought that the Force should be related to the effect
> extensively while I was liberal in my need for rules and could usually
> come up with reasons to have higher force.
>
> *snip spell categories I agree with*
>
> > Health Spells
> > heathly glow :)
> > hibernate (needing 4 successes do you have to have this spell at a
> > minimum of force 4 for it to work?)
> > increased reflexes (why this one works at force one is beyond me,
> > seems a more reasonable spells would allow +1 initiative dice for
> > every 2 successes)
>
> While this does work at Force 1, remember the beauty of Dispelling.
> Dispelling is an option to magicians in SR3 that was not in SR2 and so a
> lot of players either forget they can do it or overlook it. An opponent
> spellcaster rolls Sorcery + Spell Pool against the Force of the spell.
> Each success cancels a success generated by the original casting.
> Extremely useful against spells that have high target numbers to cast
> and are sustained (Increased Reflexes, Armor, Barrier, etc...).

The plus side is that you can spell lock it for 1 karma. One thing
about dispelling is that if an enemy mage is taking an action to dispell
your spell he is not nuking the rest of the team, kinda like ablative
spell defense.

> Dispelling a magician's Increased Reflexes on the last pass of a Combat
> Turn is very nasty indeed.
>
> > Illusions
> > invisibility
> > improved invisibility
> > stealth
>
> (Mark Shieh adressed this and I respond in his post.)
>
> > Elemental
> > all (because you choose the damage level, anything that inflicts deadly
> > damage can hurt. Dont try it on trolls)
>
> A Force 1 Deadly Flamethrower would still have a drain of 3D (1/2
> rounded down = 0, +1 from the spell, plus +2 for staging the drain
> beyond Deadly p. 191). Last I checked, most magicians don't have a
> Willpower of 8. That means you'll be spending some of that precious
> Spell Pool to resist the drain and the big tough sammies are going to be
> able to shrug off the damage. Not my choice.
>
> Now let's look at a Force 5 Medium Flamethrower. The drain is going to
> be 3S and it's going to have a much better chance of injuring someone
> and you are going to have a much better chance of taking no drain.
> Sounds like I'd go for a higher force on the elemental spells.
>

The big reason I see for a 1D elemental attack would be for the
secondary effects that are directly related to its damage level. The
prime example that comes to mind is a 1D lightning ball attack to
pursade pursuers that risking the destruction of all their electronic
equipment is not worth the chase.

From:	Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:29:35 -0700

Message no. 10 > Detection Spells
> none
> need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information

Where does it say the maximum number of successes you can have is equal to
the force?

> Illusions
> invisibility
> improved invisibility
> stealth

Also Entertainment and Trid Entertainment, Dream,

> Transformations
> none

Fashion and Makeover.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
Resume http://resumes.dice.com/arcady
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:11:42 -0500

Message no. 11 Arcady wrote:
>
> > Detection Spells
> > none
> > need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information
>
> Where does it say the maximum number of successes you can have is equal to
> the force?

It doesn't but the range of Detection spells is Magic x Force. Doesn't
do a lot of good if you can only Detect Enemies 6 meters away.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

From:	Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:04:35 +700

Message no. 12 >> > Detection Spells
>> > none
>> > need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information
>>
>> Where does it say the maximum number of successes you can have is equal to

>> the force?
>
>It doesn't but the range of Detection spells is Magic x Force. Doesn't
>do a lot of good if you can only Detect Enemies 6 meters away.

Yes. But it depends on the usage. For instance Clairaudience force 1 gives the
old D&D 'Listen at the door' trick. Clairaudience force 1 should be in the spell
vocabulary of any 'sneak-mage'. See what's in that office or beyond that wall
BEFORE you go bursting through. :)

Arcady Resume: http://resumes.dice.com/arcady <0){{{{><
Art: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:25:19 -0500

Message no. 13 Arcady wrote:

> >It doesn't but the range of Detection spells is Magic x Force. Doesn't
> >do a lot of good if you can only Detect Enemies 6 meters away.
>
> Yes. But it depends on the usage. For instance Clairaudience force 1 gives the
> old D&D 'Listen at the door' trick. Clairaudience force 1 should be in the spell
> vocabulary of any 'sneak-mage'. See what's in that office or beyond that wall
> BEFORE you go bursting through. :)

I think you are missing the point. I thought the whole thread was about
why you shouldn't ever get high force versions of certain spells.

I will grant you that low-level detection spells can be useful. But why
not spend the couple extra points and get a Clairvoyance 4 or 5. Now not
only can you see/hear behind a door, you can look down the corridor and
into the room, or up whole floors, etc... It becomes a much more useful
spell, IMO.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

From:	Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:51:38 +700

Message no. 14 >> >It doesn't but the range of Detection spells is Magic x Force. Doesn't
>> >do a lot of good if you can only Detect Enemies 6 meters away.
>>
>> Yes. But it depends on the usage. For instance Clairaudience force 1 gives
the
>> old D&D 'Listen at the door' trick. Clairaudience force 1 should be in the
spell
>> vocabulary of any 'sneak-mage'. See what's in that office or beyond that
wall
>> BEFORE you go bursting through. :)
>
>I will grant you that low-level detection spells can be useful. But why
>not spend the couple extra points and get a Clairvoyance 4 or 5. Now not
>only can you see/hear behind a door, you can look down the corridor and
>into the room, or up whole floors, etc... It becomes a much more useful
>spell, IMO.

Only by a little bit. Force 1 gives you 6 meters (for a non burned out mage)
and that's enough for most uses. Those other 3 to 4 force points would be much
better spent getting a wider variety of spells.

At only 25 points to start with (35 for aspected) you don't get much in the
way of variety unless you buy everything at the bare bones practical level.
With spells that you can afford to go low on it's a better idea to do so.

Unless you want a very narrowly focused mage.

Arcady Resume: http://resumes.dice.com/arcady <0){{{{><
Art: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Wed, 01 Sep 1999 15:31:12 -0500

Message no. 15 Arcady wrote:

> Only by a little bit. Force 1 gives you 6 meters (for a non burned out mage)
> and that's enough for most uses. Those other 3 to 4 force points would be much
> better spent getting a wider variety of spells.
>
> At only 25 points to start with (35 for aspected) you don't get much in the
> way of variety unless you buy everything at the bare bones practical level.
> With spells that you can afford to go low on it's a better idea to do so.
>
> Unless you want a very narrowly focused mage.

I guess that's where our opinions/preferences for magicians vary. I like
having a small core of spells that are flexible while still being
reliable. I'm not saying your preference is wrong, it's just different.
I would never have given up my Clairvoyance 5 while trying to rescue an
exxecutive from the shutdown Renraku Arcology. Being able to scan
through rooms and down hallways while staying hidden and protected was
invaluable. I find myself taking the same core spells everytime:

Manabolt
Powerbolt
Flamethrower (or some other Elemental Damaging Spell)
Heal
Clairvoyance
Improved Illusion
Physical Mask
Levitate

Of course, I'm a gamemaster first and a player second so I haven't had
more than four magician characters ever.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

From:	Elindor Quinn rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au
Subject:	Spells and Force Level
Date:	Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:36:29 +0800

Message no. 16 Lars Ericson indicated Re: Spells and Force Level

> Arcady wrote:
> >
> > > Detection Spells
> > > none
> > > need 4 successes for accurate and detailed information
> >
> > Where does it say the maximum number of successes you can have is equal
> > to the force?
>
> It doesn't but the range of Detection spells is Magic x Force. Doesn't do
> a lot of good if you can only Detect Enemies 6 meters away.

Unless you get Detect Enemies (Extended) - suddenly the
detection range is 60 meters, with a +1 to the drain level.

Elindor Quinn
So what? I mean, it was officially ruled an accident...

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