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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:02:20 -0400
> From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 5:51 PM

<Snip>

> I'd also love to see a system for "spells on the fly". As I see it,
> at least for hermetics, there is a set of rules about creating
> magical effects. Spells are calculated versions of these that allow
> for safer, lower drain casting. But in a pinch, a mage should be
> able to use these rules to create a quick and dirty effect. (A
> shaman should be able to as well, but with a slightly different
> rationalization.).

> Nothing too complicated, or too easy. Perhaps like the original
> decker "utilities on the fly", something that is too hard to be used
> as a rule, but it exists in a pinch. Comments?

Okay, here goes:

Spells ARE on the fly! Look how long it takes to cast one. At MOST, three
whole seconds. Spells do create quick and dirty effects. What else is a
Hellblast for? Spells are fine the way they are, IMO. If you want to know
how to create another fast and dirty effect, drop a few karma points and
study a new spell.

> -=SwiftOne=-

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:24:11 -0500
<snip spells on the fly>
I like this idea in principle. IMHO shaman should
have an edge in this skill, it matches their style
better. OTOH, that would mean coming up with
something else hermetics do better...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:25:56 EDT
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:02:20 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>
>
>> Nothing too complicated, or too easy. Perhaps like the original
>> decker "utilities on the fly", something that is too hard to be used
>> as a rule, but it exists in a pinch. Comments?
>
>Okay, here goes:
>
>Spells ARE on the fly! Look how long it takes to cast one. At MOST,
three
>whole seconds. Spells do create quick and dirty effects. What else is
a
>Hellblast for? Spells are fine the way they are, IMO. If you want to
know
>how to create another fast and dirty effect, drop a few karma points and
>study a new spell.

You're overlooking something here, Justin. The human mind is capable of
a lot of things, and when you're a magician it gets better. If there's
only one chance to save the team, and the mage doesn't know how to cast
the spell that is that chance, you cannot tell me that he won't try to
anyways. Not to mention that saying, "No, you can't do anything 'cause
you haven't spent the karma for it" is just like AD&Diesel that says you
can't cast a spell you haven't memorized. It doesn't give a feel for the
possibilities of magic.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:44:22 -0400
> From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
> Date: Saturday, September 20, 1997 2:25 AM

> > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:02:20 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:

> >Okay, here goes:

> >Spells ARE on the fly! Look how long it takes to cast one. At MOST,
> three
> >whole seconds. Spells do create quick and dirty effects. What else is
> a
> >Hellblast for? Spells are fine the way they are, IMO. If you want to
> know
> >how to create another fast and dirty effect, drop a few karma points and
> >study a new spell.

> You're overlooking something here, Justin. The human mind is capable of
> a lot of things, and when you're a magician it gets better. If there's
> only one chance to save the team, and the mage doesn't know how to cast
> the spell that is that chance, you cannot tell me that he won't try to
> anyways. Not to mention that saying, "No, you can't do anything 'cause
> you haven't spent the karma for it" is just like AD&Diesel that says you
> can't cast a spell you haven't memorized. It doesn't give a feel for the
> possibilities of magic.

No, I didn't miss that. It was taken into account when forming my opinion
on the matter before posting. Yes, the human mind is capable of a lot of
things. Yes, you can learn a lot of spells in SR if you put the karma and
time into doing so.

IMO, if you are a non-combatative mage and you are in a situation where
your having a spell that does massive amounts of damage to the opposition
will keep your team from dying, you're probably not the right mage for the
job. That's what combat mages are for.

Sure, you can learn lots of spells and do lots of things with magic in SR.
The problem I see is when I have a player who creates a full magician with
4 or 5 spells and then whines when he doesn't have any magic appropriate to
the situation. Duh. A magician of the level created as a PC in SR has had
years to study and get a strong understanding of his arts. If anyone truly
believes that the student has spent all those years learning 4 or 5
powerful combat/damaging manipulation spells, then they deserve the lack of
diversity their mage posesses.

If, on the other hand, they have a full magician who decides to have
perhaps 8 or 10 spells to start, but has more diverse spells, and maybe ONE
kick ass combat spell just in case, so be it. That's more realistic for a
non-combatative mage...you know, one who studies in a university without
the pressures of guns being pointed at their heads all the time.

Spells don't take a long time to learn, nor do they take a large amount of
karma....especially at low force. It's exceedingly easy to learn spells at
low forces on a regular basis, and make a well-rounded spellcaster. It's
all a matter of priorities. Do you want more spells, or higher skills at
this time? You can't have it all.

There's a reason spells have such high TNs to learn - they're HARD to
understand and can end up taking a long time to learn if you fail your
tests repeatedly. I feel this was done for a reason - spells aren't easy.
They're intricate workings of mana that takes a strong will and some
dedication to master. If you want to create a spell, then do so. Creating
a spell on the fly in the middle of a firefight and expecting it to work is
ludicrus. Magic isn't child's play. It's not easily mastered. If anyone
could invent spells on the fly and have them work, there wouldn't be such a
large market for spell formulaes, and lots of people would be out of work.

> --
> Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -

Justin :)
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:38:55 -0500
You wrote:
> You're overlooking something here, Justin. The human mind is capable of
> a lot of things, and when you're a magician it gets better. If there's
> only one chance to save the team, and the mage doesn't know how to cast
> the spell that is that chance, you cannot tell me that he won't try to
> anyways.

Not to mention that saying, "No, you can't do anything 'cause
> you haven't spent the karma for it" is just like AD&Diesel that says you
> can't cast a spell you haven't memorized. It doesn't give a feel for the
> possibilities of magic.
Ever read Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series? I think his description
of spell memorization works quite well both conceptually and mechanics-wise
when compared to AD&D's memorization system.

In any case, where does one draw a line on magical power? Surely SR has made
some definite distinctions of what can and cannot be done by a single metahuman
caster. Some effects are beyond their ability. I don't think spells are
something simple that one can grasp in one's mind easily all at once, let alone
come up with on the fly. Why does it take days equal to the spell's force to
learn it, and why is the target number so high? They're very complex. This is
not a high fantasy system, and so there needs to be an obvious limit to what
magic can accomplish, otherwise it becomes the cure-all.

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:15:52 +1000
At 10:44 AM 9/20/97 -0400, Justin Pinnow wrote:

>No, I didn't miss that. It was taken into account when forming my opinion
>on the matter before posting. Yes, the human mind is capable of a lot of
>things. Yes, you can learn a lot of spells in SR if you put the karma and
>time into doing so.

I heavily agree - a magician will be a far more competent member of a team
if they have a lot of low-force spells rather than 1 or 2 very-high-force.

Versatility is what mages do best. Destroying things is what explosive
charges do best. Using spells to send invisible high-explosive charges at
opponents, then using barrier spells to make salsa of the target area is
pretty good, too. :-)


>Spells don't take a long time to learn, nor do they take a large amount of
>karma....especially at low force. It's exceedingly easy to learn spells at
>low forces on a regular basis, and make a well-rounded spellcaster. It's
>all a matter of priorities. Do you want more spells, or higher skills at
>this time? You can't have it all.

Given a choice between designing and learning 20 useful Force 1 spells, or
designing and learning 3 high-powered combat spells, the former wins. Much
more versatility, much much easier to do, and looks really impressive on a
character sheet as well! ;-)

>There's a reason spells have such high TNs to learn - they're HARD to
>understand and can end up taking a long time to learn if you fail your
>tests repeatedly. I feel this was done for a reason - spells aren't easy.

Partially in support:
Even the lowest-force spell will take days to design, and hours to learn.
High-powered combat spells can take years to design and months to learn.

(Most spells will probably have TN#2 to design though - subtracting Magic
Rating from the TN# is a big bonus)

>They're intricate workings of mana that takes a strong will and some
>dedication to master. If you want to create a spell, then do so. Creating
>a spell on the fly in the middle of a firefight and expecting it to work is
>ludicrus.

I agree here. If you allow improvisation for mages, you should allow the
technical characters to make anti-tank rockets from tinfoil and bubble-gum.

> Magic isn't child's play. It's not easily mastered. If anyone
>could invent spells on the fly and have them work, there wouldn't be such a
>large market for spell formulaes, and lots of people would be out of work.

I tend to think that lots of people *are* out of work in teh SRun world,
due to common magic.

--
Tim Little
Message no. 7
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:25:21 EDT
On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:15:52 +1000 Timothy Little
<t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU> writes:
>
>I heavily agree - a magician will be a far more competent member of a
team
>if they have a lot of low-force spells rather than 1 or 2
very-high-force.

Wasn't refuting that. Not going to go back into it, read my other posts.

>I agree here. If you allow improvisation for mages, you should allow
the
>technical characters to make anti-tank rockets from tinfoil and
bubble-gum.

Sure, if they've got the right B/R skill, the tinfoil's thick enough,
and they can come up with a plausible(not real, mind you, but plausible)
reason as to why it should - you'd be amazed what you can do with
household chemicals.

>> Magic isn't child's play. It's not easily mastered. If anyone
>>could invent spells on the fly and have them work, there wouldn't be
such a
>>large market for spell formulaes, and lots of people would be out of
work.
>
>I tend to think that lots of people *are* out of work in teh SRun world,
>due to common magic.

Y'know, I'd REALLY love to know precisely where you get this crazy idea
that magic is common, because it most definitely is NOT. Magic in SR is
about as rare as privately owned military aircraft are right now in 1997.
In other words, most people never know anyone who has magic.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Message no. 8
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells on the Fly (Was: Astral Senses)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:13:13 EDT
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:44:22 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>
>> You're overlooking something here, Justin. The human mind is capable
of
>> a lot of things, and when you're a magician it gets better. If there's
>> only one chance to save the team, and the mage doesn't know how to
cast
>> the spell that is that chance, you cannot tell me that he won't try to
>> anyways. Not to mention that saying, "No, you can't do anything 'cause
>> you haven't spent the karma for it" is just like AD&Diesel that says
you
>> can't cast a spell you haven't memorized. It doesn't give a feel for
the
>> possibilities of magic.
>
>No, I didn't miss that. It was taken into account when forming my
opinion
>on the matter before posting. Yes, the human mind is capable of a lot
of
>things. Yes, you can learn a lot of spells in SR if you put the karma
and
>time into doing so.

Point taken. Teaches me not to assume, neh? =)

>IMO, if you are a non-combatative mage and you are in a situation where
>your having a spell that does massive amounts of damage to the
opposition
>will keep your team from dying, you're probably not the right mage for
the
>job. That's what combat mages are for.

That's not really what I mean. I'm thinking more of the situation where
the characters are butt-naked in a jail cell a few minutes before their
execution, and their only hope is to get the door to the cell open.
Things like that. The system I use doesn't allow for Hellblasts on the
fly, unless you really feel like taking 20D drain. =)

>Sure, you can learn lots of spells and do lots of things with magic in
SR.
>The problem I see is when I have a player who creates a full magician
with
>4 or 5 spells and then whines when he doesn't have any magic appropriate
to
>the situation. Duh. A magician of the level created as a PC in SR has
had
>years to study and get a strong understanding of his arts. If anyone
truly
>believes that the student has spent all those years learning 4 or 5
>powerful combat/damaging manipulation spells, then they deserve the lack
of
>diversity their mage posesses.

Okay, I'm going to go into weirdness mode here, so bear with me.
Learning how to work magic and maipulate magical energy is not a
difficult process(mastering, well that's another story). Magic has a
tendency to operate on the AD&Dink "Evil GM and a Wish Spell" principle,
namely if you don't do it properly, or phrase what you want precisely,
something disastrous is bound to happen. Now, granted, this is a low mana
environment I'm talking about here, and in a high mana environment, the
results will be the same, but on a much more immediate scale. But in Real
Life(and here's where I go nutsoid =) ) there is no such thing as spell
formulae. You determine what you want the spell to do, channel the energy
into it, and let it go. Most groups, such as Wiccan covens, use rituals
extensively, but as any solitary practitioner - especially those who live
with their Catholic parents, like me - can tell you, it isn't
necessary(I've become adept at doing my ritual work by sitting on my bed
and visualizing). All I'm really saying is that formulae are more of a
cruch than anything else; without the willpower to channel the energy to
do what you want it to, and the vision of what is supposed to happen, all
the formulae in the known universe won't help you cast that spell.

>If, on the other hand, they have a full magician who decides to have
>perhaps 8 or 10 spells to start, but has more diverse spells, and maybe
ONE
>kick ass combat spell just in case, so be it. That's more realistic for
a
>non-combatative mage...you know, one who studies in a university without
>the pressures of guns being pointed at their heads all the time.
>
>Spells don't take a long time to learn, nor do they take a large amount
of
>karma....especially at low force. It's exceedingly easy to learn spells
at
>low forces on a regular basis, and make a well-rounded spellcaster. It's
>all a matter of priorities. Do you want more spells, or higher skills
at
>this time? You can't have it all.

To quote Queen, "I want it all, and I want it NOW!" =)

>There's a reason spells have such high TNs to learn - they're HARD to
>understand and can end up taking a long time to learn if you fail your
>tests repeatedly. I feel this was done for a reason - spells aren't
easy.
>They're intricate workings of mana that takes a strong will and some
>dedication to master. If you want to create a spell, then do so.
Creating
>a spell on the fly in the middle of a firefight and expecting it to work
is
>ludicrus. Magic isn't child's play. It's not easily mastered. If
anyone
>could invent spells on the fly and have them work, there wouldn't be
such a
>large market for spell formulaes, and lots of people would be out of
work.

Again, I say that spell formulae are a crutch for those who think it is
necessary, much like Geasa and fetish/exclusive requirements are. You
don't *NEED* them to channel the energy, it just makes it easier for you
in your own mind to the point where you think you can't do it without the
formulae. It isn't necessary to "learn" a spell to be able to perform the
action. Sort of like driving. If you've never seen a car in your life,
and someone puts you in the driver's seat with the engine running, it'll
take you all of a minute to get the car to move. Not well, mind you, but
you'll do it. With a bit of practice, you get better. Same thing with a
spell. Once you know that the energy will obey your commands, the rest of
it is just commanding it. And you just get better as you go along.
Please bear in mind, this is my take on it, and the rules I use(which
you should have read and flamed by now =) ) are designed with munchkins
in mind as well as to display that the indoctrination of spell formulae
being required has formed a necessity for magicians. It's also because
anything else that I could come up with would require a re-write of the
entire magic system, which is just a little too much work for me. =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Further Reading

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