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Message no. 1
From: David Woods <david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:58:44 +0100
Hi,

In my last SR game active Foci could be 'grounded' through with spells
from Astral Space. This would break the bonding and generally ruin my
Mage's day.

However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?

As I read it you can only effect the dual natured object, not anything
else on the physical plane. Also it seems that you can destroy a Foci in
Astral Combat or by physical destruction (i.e. a Ram spell). Is there
any reason why you couldn't cast Ram from Astral Space?

I assume the TN for spells cast on Active Foci is the Object Resistance
table. Does the Foci get to roll it's Force to resist the spell? What
level of damage destroys the Foci's power?

By the same principle can you destroy a Lodge or Circle Ward from Astral
Space by casting Powerbolts at it and so harming it's physical
structure. As you don't have to do much to disrupt an Hermetic Circle,
wouldn't this make it too easy?

As a player in a SR2 game I came to the conclusion that Foci were too
dangerous and just resulted in flushing Karma down the cosmic toilet. If
it's the SR3 intention to only have Foci destroyed in Astral Combat,
this makes them worth the Karma and risk imo.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 2
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:22:30 EDT
In a message dated 10/19/98 5:10:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes:

> However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
> still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?

Nope, that was taken out of SR3, though some GMs have house rules covering it.

-Bandit
Message no. 3
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:23:42 +0100
And verily, did David Woods hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Hi,
|
|In my last SR game active Foci could be 'grounded' through with spells
|from Astral Space. This would break the bonding and generally ruin my
|Mage's day.
|
|However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
|still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?

No.
You are now unable to affect ot be affected by anything on the physical
plane.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 4
From: David Woods <david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:31:48 +0100
A Halliwell wrote:
>
> And verily, did David Woods hastily scribble thusly...
> |
> |Hi,
> |
> |In my last SR game active Foci could be 'grounded' through with spells
> |from Astral Space. This would break the bonding and generally ruin my
> |Mage's day.
> |
> |However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
> |still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?
>
> No.
> You are now unable to affect ot be affected by anything on the physical
> plane.

Ok. What about my other questions? Can you destroy a Ward or Foci with
Spells while Astral? Or must you use Astral Combat?

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 5
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:31:17 +0200
And so it came to happen that David Woods wrote:
----------
> Hi,
>
> In my last SR game active Foci could be 'grounded' through with spells
> from Astral Space. This would break the bonding and generally ruin my
> Mage's day.
> However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
> still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?
No. There is no "Grounding" anymore. FASA seems to have given it
a kick to settle the old "I ground that Powerball through that Anchoring"
theme or the "Aha. Ok, then I ground it through the Quickening?".
That is, of course if they not take it back in MITS due out in February as
latest news are.

> As I read it you can only effect the dual natured object, not anything
> else on the physical plane.
That is right. No exploding Goons anymore who hapen to stand around
the mage with the walking stick. Destroy the object from the astral and
you get a Walking Stick (insert form of focus/Ward as seems fit) that is
simply that. A Walking stick. Destroy the object from the physical and
you have destroyed both the physical form and the astral, you just get
some ash or whatever should be left of after an attack.

> Also it seems that you can destroy a Foci in Astral Combat or by
>physical destruction (i.e. a Ram spell).
You can can either destroy the physical component by anymeans know-
edgeable (aka shooting, burning, engulfing with elemental power, Ram spell
or an ICBM, whichever seems fit;o)) or you destroy the astralcomponent of
the object, in the above example the focus.

>Is there any reason why you couldn't cast Ram from Astral Space?
If Ram is still a physical spell it can not be casted from the astral or in
the astral. SR3rd. prohibits physical spells beeing cast in or from the astral.
You are just allowed to cast Manabased Spells.

> I assume the TN for spells cast on Active Foci is the Object Resistance
> table.
Seems about right. Although if you cast a physical manipulation spell
against the physical component of the object your Target number is only
4.

> Does the Foci get to roll it's Force to resist the spell?
Now, that one is tricky. If you use a Mana based Spell (as a Manabolt) the
Focus/object resists using his Force plus any alocated Spell Defence Dice
from the creator or the current bonder of the object (that is regardles where
he is. That brings an interesting idea to my mind. What if Joe Wagemage
creates a ward and then needs to fly fast overseas. He takes the Semibalistic
to Frankfurt and in midflight he notices that someone tries to destroy his Ward.
So he alocates Spell defense, aka uses magic in the Vacuum of space. Does
he go mad? Does nothing happen? Questions, questions...:o)). A Deadly on
the Conditionmonitor for the object destroys its magical abilities and any re-
lated bonds. If you try to destroy it with a Ram Spell from the physical you
seem to simply destroy the object with the spell. I use the Barrirerratings as
Resitance for Foci.
For Wards it depends and a bit common sense seems apropriate. But Barrier-
ratings seem to work fine till now. I have nothing found in the SR3rd. regarding
allocating Spell Defense if you are the Creator/Bonder and if your Focus/object
is attacked by a physical Spell, but I allow it in my campaigns that Spell Defense
can be allocated Physical Spell Atacks against ones Objects.
Houserules anyone on this?

> What level of damage destroys the Foci's power?
That one seems simple. Deadly destroys a Focus power.

> By the same principle can you destroy a Lodge or Circle Ward from Astral
> Space by casting Powerbolts at it and so harming it's physical
> structure. As you don't have to do much to disrupt an Hermetic Circle,
> wouldn't this make it too easy?
Can't. See Ram Spell from Astral Space.

> As a player in a SR2 game I came to the conclusion that Foci were too
> dangerous and just resulted in flushing Karma down the cosmic toilet. If
> it's the SR3 intention to only have Foci destroyed in Astral Combat,
> this makes them worth the Karma and risk imo.
Yes. But what is power without risc? And now you still "loose" plenty of Karma
if you get your Focus destroyed. BTW, ok, right now you can't kill your Runners
by simply letting a flyby mage pump a Fireball through your Power Focus, but
now you have this nice thing called astral signature. And Foci and the like leave
an astral footprint behind that can be remembered, so better take care of it or
the boys from DPI knock at your door.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:43:32 -0700
:Ok. What about my other questions? Can you destroy a Ward or Foci with
:Spells while Astral? Or must you use Astral Combat?


p.176 sr3, "Astral Objects", last paragraph "If an astral object is
targeted with a mana spell... If the object takes deadly damage, it is
destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage reduces the Force by one..."

That should answer all those questions. Note that due to the fact
that all Foci have their own karma pool, and because astral objects
"regenerate" in force, they can still be damn tough. Nothing is mentioned
about physical spells; afaik they don't work on astral targets, and can't
be cast while projecting.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:31:53 -0400
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, David Woods wrote:

->A Halliwell wrote:
->>
->> And verily, did David Woods hastily scribble thusly...
->> |
->> |Hi,
->> |
->> |In my last SR game active Foci could be 'grounded' through with spells
->> |from Astral Space. This would break the bonding and generally ruin my
->> |Mage's day.
->> |
->> |However I have bought SR3 and can't find any reference to this. Is it
->> |still possible to 'ground' spells though dual natured objects?
->>
->> No.
->> You are now unable to affect ot be affected by anything on the physical
->> plane.
->
->Ok. What about my other questions? Can you destroy a Ward or Foci with
->Spells while Astral? Or must you use Astral Combat?

Yes and maybe. You may use Astral COmbat or you may cast spells
(spells cast by a mage in the astral always do physical drain, so it may
not be in your best interest).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: WANKA SELF <self67@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:42:25 PDT
Okay folks,
I think there is a miscommunication here, probably on my part, but let's
see. As I understand it, DW was wondering if a foci could be attacked
from Astral space AND from the material plane. The astral combat rules
state that it can be done and it often is, IF the foci or spell lock or
whatever is currently active. If it is not ~on~, then it can NOT be
attacked astrally, because there is no connection to the astral plane.
So you just keep them off till you need to use them, and your set. Of
course, if there is a mage or astral critter, there when you turn it on,
then it should be attacked. As for physically attacking it on the
material plane, anything can be destroyed if you hammer it hard enough.
I hope this cleared it up for you, or me.

Wanka


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Message no. 9
From: David Woods <david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:38:44 +0100
Steadfast wrote:
>
> And so it came to happen that David Woods wrote:
> ----------

Thanks for your reply, it's cleared up a few issues I was fuzzy on.

> > As a player in a SR2 game I came to the conclusion that Foci were too
> > dangerous and just resulted in flushing Karma down the cosmic toilet. If
> > it's the SR3 intention to only have Foci destroyed in Astral Combat,
> > this makes them worth the Karma and risk imo.
>
> Yes. But what is power without risc? And now you still "loose" plenty of
Karma
> if you get your Focus destroyed.

Of course, I don't mind risk. ;-) It's certain death that I try to avoid
(but perhap our GM was a little 'grounding' happy).

> BTW, ok, right now you can't kill your Runners
> by simply letting a flyby mage pump a Fireball through your Power Focus, but
> now you have this nice thing called astral signature. And Foci and the like leave
> an astral footprint behind that can be remembered, so better take care of it or
> the boys from DPI knock at your door.

Or make sure the DPI don't have your address.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 10
From: David Woods <david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:52:42 +0100
WANKA SELF wrote:
>
> Okay folks,
> I think there is a miscommunication here, probably on my part, but let's
> see. As I understand it, DW was wondering if a foci could be attacked
> from Astral space AND from the material plane.

Actually I was asking if the physical object could be destroyed with
spells from Astral space. As I now understand it the answer is no, only
the astral object can be attacked. I never doubted that the physical
object could be attacked from the physical.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 11
From: David Woods <david@*******.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:46:21 +0100
Mongoose wrote:
>
> :Ok. What about my other questions? Can you destroy a Ward or Foci with
> :Spells while Astral? Or must you use Astral Combat?
>
> p.176 sr3, "Astral Objects", last paragraph "If an astral object
is
> targeted with a mana spell... If the object takes deadly damage, it is
> destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage reduces the Force by one..."

Thanks. I don't know how I missed this.

> That should answer all those questions. Note that due to the fact
> that all Foci have their own karma pool, and because astral objects
> "regenerate" in force, they can still be damn tough.

Agreed. But if you've spend a lot of Karma and NY on a foci it shouldn't
be easy.

Regards

- David Woods
Message no. 12
From: Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:39:53 -0700
On 19 Oct 98, at 18:52, Ryo-ohki observed David Woods saying:
> Actually I was asking if the physical object could be destroyed with
> spells from Astral space. As I now understand it the answer is no, only
> the astral object can be attacked. I never doubted that the physical
> object could be attacked from the physical.

This brings up an interesting question, and if its been answered
already, I missed it. If a focus is attacked on the Astral (SR3 rules),
and the astral entity is destroyed, does the physical object just become
a mundane object. Ie. Freddy the Force-8 Fire Elemental attacks my
Force 5 Weapon focus from the Astral. After all is said and done, my
weapon focus is "destroyed"; does the physical katana turn into a slagged
heap of worthless metal/oricalchum, or is it now just a katana that has
extra goodies built into it? Can it be re-enchanted, as it already has
the oricalchum built into it, or does it need to be re-formed with new
alchemical radicals/oricalchum, etc?

-Sean

-Fieran, "Dances with Bears" Follower of the Invisible Path
**sean<at>slip.net**http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun**
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:54:00 -0700
:> :Ok. What about my other questions? Can you destroy a Ward or Foci with
:> :Spells while Astral? Or must you use Astral Combat?
:>
:> p.176 sr3, "Astral Objects", last paragraph "If an astral object
is
:> targeted with a mana spell... If the object takes deadly damage, it is
:> destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage reduces the Force by
one..."
:
:Thanks. I don't know how I missed this.

I do- it took me 5 minutes to find it!

:> That should answer all those questions. Note that due to the fact
:> that all Foci have their own karma pool, and because astral objects
:> "regenerate" in force, they can still be damn tough.
:
:Agreed. But if you've spend a lot of Karma and NY on a foci it shouldn't
:be easy.


<shrug> In sr2, they used to be cheese. Now they ain't. Note that the
above also points out the main reason for no grounding; physical spells
don't affect astral targets. To cast a physical spell, you must BE
physical, affair.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:58:05 +0200
And so it came to happen that Sean Matheis wrote:
----------
<snip>
> This brings up an interesting question, and if its been answered
> already, I missed it. If a focus is attacked on the Astral (SR3 rules),
> and the astral entity is destroyed, does the physical object just become
> a mundane object. Ie. Freddy the Force-8 Fire Elemental attacks my
> Force 5 Weapon focus from the Astral. After all is said and done, my
> weapon focus is "destroyed"; does the physical katana turn into a slagged
> heap of worthless metal/oricalchum, or is it now just a katana that has
> extra goodies built into it? Can it be re-enchanted, as it already has
> the oricalchum built into it, or does it need to be re-formed with new
> alchemical radicals/oricalchum, etc?

It is not stated in the section regarding astral objects, nor seems it to
be addressed in any other section (so far I have nothing found that I can
quote).
But we do have this one thing that seems to answer your first question.
"A projecting Spellcaster could, for example...but could not target the
person with a spell from astral space because the person is not present on
the astral plane...The barrier between the physical and the astral planes
is like an unbreakable plane of oneway glass..."
SR3rd. page 182 1st to 2nd column regarding ASTRAL SPELLCASTING

In SR3rd. you can not by no means knowledgeble to magicians 'round the
world affect anything out of the astral into the physical. You destroy a
Focus in astralcombat or through mana based spells. The magical aka the
astral object is destroyed, but it does have no effects on the physical
plane. If it has than grounding would still be possible in subtle way.
Example: I prepare a Force 1 spellfoci (Armor) so that it holds a timed
mechanism into balance that starts a small spark into that fuel can. Than
out of the astral I destroy that focus, it crumbles to dust, mechanism
ignites fuel through spark BOOM!
Ok, maybe not "realy" a grounding but something similar.
The whole thing seems to be that you either destroy the physical OR the
astral object OR the physical AND the astral but not the other way around.
And if you mention dualbeings, those would surly die if you disrupt there
astral corpus, so OK with this you can affect the physical world but just
through the medium of the dualbeeings body which is connected to the astral
and is not realy damaged in any way (well, unless ofcourse the poor slot
falls into a pit with sharp spikes and stakes, but than I gues that beeing
would be beyond those thoughts;o)).
The other question seems to be answered the same, all components inlaid
into that sword would not be harmed. But now comes the part that can be
discussed until MITS comes out. You could say that Orichalkum is magical in
nature and by destroying the Focus you loose that magical part. Same for
any telesmen and stuff. Boom, new sword to buy and hoping in finding one
dumb enough to sell that old but nice looking sword. OTOH you could argue
that you just destroy the Focus not the parts of the focus and so you just
can enchant the sword once again and everythings fine.
For me it would be the last option (although I don't like it realy, must be
the GM coming out) as it seems to me to be the most rulesorientated way AND
it is the one that I can live with. It would cost enough money and Karma to
enchant that sword new, and of course the resource that most of us had the
least, time. The first option would be nice, sure, but it does simply not
sound that good to me.
Anyway, hope my thoughts helped abit.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 15
From: WANKA SELF <self67@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Spells vs. Foci and Wards
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:22:41 PDT
Ahhhhh,
My mistake, I willtry to pay more attention when I read what's being
discussed.

Wanka

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