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Message no. 1
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:38:06 -0700
dreamwvr wrote:
>
> I was rereading the magic rules (once again) and I came across something
> which quite took me by surprise:
>
> Should a target to any spell be behind, say a wall, with onl a foot and head
> exposed, a magician is unable to target them with a spell. The reason being
> (SR2) that the magician requires a view of the entire aura in order to
> synchronise his and thus create a "bridge."
>
> Thus a magician in the above situation would be unable to cast, say power
> bolt, on a partially exposed target. If this holds true, a magician does
> need to target a spell and it isn't only LOS which comes into consideration.
> Must a magician receive penalties for trying to hit a target behind partial
> cover?
>
> As a GM, I am currently undecided on this recent discovery and would like to
> know how others have interpretted, changed or used this rule.

It has been stated before that movement modifiers don't apply, but other
than that I've always applied ranged combat visibilty modifiers (cover,
lighting, and so on) to my spellcasters when they start slinging mojo.

I have come across something intereseting though. S/R II, page 130,
under Spell Targeting is a sentence that says, "A magician cannot,
however, cast spells directly at invisible beings or beings in astral
space by using enhanced vision or astral perception." Later on is
another sentence that says, "A good rule of thumb is that that magicians
must be able to see their target with their own eyes or a natural
extension of those eyes."

Does this mean that a spellcaster cannot shift to the astral plane and
see past someone under an invisibility spell or an unmanifested spirit
lurking around and then hit them with a spell? The reason I ask is that
it's been common practice with my mages to astrally perceive to bypass
lighting modifiers, I don't apply the +2 perceiving modifier with spell
casting.

The way I take what they're saying here is that a projecting mage cannot
throw spells at a spirit or elemental on the astral plane. Neither could
he be perceiving and throw a spell at a bandersnatch or invible
wage-mage that he couldn't see were he using his normal physical sight.
Possibly because spells are an interaction of the astral energies and
physical plane? Is this true and how do you all interpret it?

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 2
From: dreamwvr@******.co.za (dreamwvr)
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:17:11 -0200 (GMT)
The shadowrun method of spellcasting involves the caster switching to the
astral plane to control the magical energy as he focuses it into a spell.
Therefore a magician may astral perceive to cast a spell.
Message no. 3
From: Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:13:28 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, dreamwvr wrote:

> I was rereading the magic rules (once again) and I came across something
> which quite took me by surprise:
>
> Should a target to any spell be behind, say a wall, with onl a foot and head
> exposed, a magician is unable to target them with a spell. The reason being
> (SR2) that the magician requires a view of the entire aura in order to
> synchronise his and thus create a "bridge."
>
> Thus a magician in the above situation would be unable to cast, say power
> bolt, on a partially exposed target. If this holds true, a magician does
> need to target a spell and it isn't only LOS which comes into consideration.
> Must a magician receive penalties for trying to hit a target behind partial
> cover?
>
> As a GM, I am currently undecided on this recent discovery and would like to
> know how others have interpretted, changed or used this rule.
>
I assign all LOS penalties to magicians. Of course most visibility
modifiers can be lessened by simply astrally perceiving when you target,
giving you a blanket +2 instead of say +4 for dim lighting and an
additional +2 from light rain for example. I think saying a target has
to be in full sight to cast a spell makes magic a bit useless in most
combat situations. The minute spells started flying everyone would take
cover (if they hadn't already) and snicker at the mage who couldn't do a
thing about it. On the other side of the coin, eliminating all targeting
modifiers would make magic way too powerful in my opinion, as the base
target number of your average mana bolt victim would never be above 6.

Jon Wright
Message no. 4
From: Rookie <rookie@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:29:53 -0600
Jonathan Wright wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, dreamwvr wrote:
>
> I assign all LOS penalties to magicians. Of course most visibility
> modifiers can be lessened by simply astrally perceiving when you target,
> giving you a blanket +2 instead of say +4 for dim lighting and an
> additional +2 from light rain for example. I think saying a target has
> to be in full sight to cast a spell makes magic a bit useless in most
> combat situations. The minute spells started flying everyone would take
> cover (if they hadn't already) and snicker at the mage who couldn't do a
> thing about it. On the other side of the coin, eliminating all targeting
> modifiers would make magic way too powerful in my opinion, as the base
> target number of your average mana bolt victim would never be above 6.
>
> Jon Wright

This being my personal opinion,

LOS penalties should apply to Spell casting such as if you can't see
the target at all (Being +8, I can't see you, you can't see me) Therefor
a magician that can only see a foot of a person it would be hard to
channel that magical energy into that little area will be hard to do. So
if you could see them when there taking +4 cover the target would be
easier to hit than if he was taking +6 cover or impossible to hit if he
had +8 cover (Unless the magician had the X-Ray spell.)

The only time that you would be able to do Blind fire is if the spell
was Damaging Manipulation. Such as Acid Stream.



-Rookie the Wolf Shaman
Message no. 5
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:35:55 -0400
>>> Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
09/17/96 03:13pm >>>

I assign all LOS penalties to magicians. Of course
most visibility modifiers can be lessened by simply
astrally perceiving when you target, giving you a
blanket +2 instead of say +4 for dim lighting and an
additional +2 from light rain for example. I think
saying a target has to be in full sight to cast a spell
makes magic a bit useless in most combat situations.
The minute spells started flying everyone would take
cover (if they hadn't already) and snicker at the mage
who couldn't do a thing about it. On the other side of
the coin, eliminating all targeting modifiers would
make magic way too powerful in my opinion, as the
base target number of your average mana bolt victim
would never be above 6.

Jon Wright
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think you are making a fundamental mistake with
the +2 TN for using astral perception during spell
casting. I think if you check the rules on Astral
Perception the +2 TN ONLY applies to non magic
related tests such as shooting/seeing something etc.
Casting spells and conjuring are unaffected since you
are manipulating the astral energy you are seeing
anyway. I do think that you should apply Cover
modifiers for the same reason you apply them to
ranged weapons. If you are looking for a game
mechanic/rational use this: It is easier to attune one's
aura when the entire aura is visable rather than
guessing at the parts that can not be seen. Therefore
the more you have to guess what a targets aura looks
like the harder it is to hurt them.
Message no. 6
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:44:40 GMT
Jeffrey Riordan writes
>
> I think you are making a fundamental mistake with
> the +2 TN for using astral perception during spell
> casting. I think if you check the rules on Astral
> Perception the +2 TN ONLY applies to non magic
> related tests such as shooting/seeing something etc.
> Casting spells and conjuring are unaffected since you
> are manipulating the astral energy you are seeing
> anyway.
Correct.
Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties to nothing.
It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are made of physical
particles which block astral perception the same as trees leaves /
walls etc do.

> I do think that you should apply Cover
> modifiers for the same reason you apply them to
> ranged weapons. If you are looking for a game
> mechanic/rational use this: It is easier to attune one's
> aura when the entire aura is visable rather than
> guessing at the parts that can not be seen. Therefore
> the more you have to guess what a targets aura looks
> like the harder it is to hurt them.
>
It specifically states in the magic chapter that these apply, your
explanation of why is quite good though.
>

Lots of people seem to have been getting this wrong so.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:26:53 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Jeffrey Riordan wrote:

> >>> Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
> 09/17/96 03:13pm >>>
>
> I assign all LOS penalties to magicians. Of course
> most visibility modifiers can be lessened by simply
> astrally perceiving when you target, giving you a
> blanket +2 instead of say +4 for dim lighting and an
> additional +2 from light rain for example. I think
> saying a target has to be in full sight to cast a spell
> makes magic a bit useless in most combat situations.
> The minute spells started flying everyone would take
> cover (if they hadn't already) and snicker at the mage
> who couldn't do a thing about it. On the other side of
> the coin, eliminating all targeting modifiers would
> make magic way too powerful in my opinion, as the
> base target number of your average mana bolt victim
> would never be above 6.
>
> Jon Wright
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> I think you are making a fundamental mistake with
> the +2 TN for using astral perception during spell
> casting. I think if you check the rules on Astral
> Perception the +2 TN ONLY applies to non magic
> related tests such as shooting/seeing something etc.
> Casting spells and conjuring are unaffected since you
> are manipulating the astral energy you are seeing
> anyway. I do think that you should apply Cover
> modifiers for the same reason you apply them to
> ranged weapons. If you are looking for a game
> mechanic/rational use this: It is easier to attune one's
> aura when the entire aura is visable rather than
> guessing at the parts that can not be seen. Therefore
> the more you have to guess what a targets aura looks
> like the harder it is to hurt them.
>
Point well taken. Thanks for pointing out the blunder I've been making.
The two magicians in my group thank you also. :)

Jon Wright
Message no. 8
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:03:30 +1000 (EST)
> Correct.
> Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties to nothing.
> It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are made of physical
> particles which block astral perception the same as trees leaves /
> walls etc do.

Oooooh... is there anything in the rules about this? 'Cause otherwise,
since fog/rain/snow etc isn't living, I'd tend to say that the aura
stands out like a beacon (think about looking _at_ car headlights in
mist/fog...)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:31:18 -0700
The Jestyr wrote:
>
> > Correct.
> > Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties to nothing.
> > It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are made of physical
> > particles which block astral perception the same as trees leaves /
> > walls etc do.
>
> Oooooh... is there anything in the rules about this? 'Cause otherwise,
> since fog/rain/snow etc isn't living, I'd tend to say that the aura
> stands out like a beacon (think about looking _at_ car headlights in
> mist/fog...)
>
> Lady Jestyr

There are references to open flame and deep water hindering astral
sight. I guess they're going off of similar ideas with the
fog/rain/snow. Probably boils down to an individual GM's opinion or call
on this.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 10
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:38:36 GMT
Loki writes

> The Jestyr wrote:
> >
and i wrote the origonal
> > > Correct.
> > > Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties to nothing.
> > > It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are made of physical
> > > particles which block astral perception the same as trees leaves /
> > > walls etc do.
> >
> > Oooooh... is there anything in the rules about this? 'Cause otherwise,
> > since fog/rain/snow etc isn't living, I'd tend to say that the aura
> > stands out like a beacon (think about looking _at_ car headlights in
> > mist/fog...)
> >
> > Lady Jestyr
>
> There are references to open flame and deep water hindering astral
> sight. I guess they're going off of similar ideas with the
> fog/rain/snow. Probably boils down to an individual GM's opinion or call
> on this.
>
The only rules i recall are the.
general blocking of astral LOS by inanimate objects thats are opaque
in the real world and the section that says you apply all normal LOS
targeting modifiers to spellcasting as you would to any other form of
SR ranged combat.
It is rather open to a GM's call though.


> @>-,--'--- Loki
>
Mark
Message no. 11
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:16:33 +0100
The Jestyr said on 8:03/19 Sep 96...

> Oooooh... is there anything in the rules about this? 'Cause otherwise,
> since fog/rain/snow etc isn't living, I'd tend to say that the aura
> stands out like a beacon (think about looking _at_ car headlights in
> mist/fog...)

Any non-living thing has an opaque aura, unless it's transparent in the
physical world. Applied to your question, I'd say a snowflake isn't alive
(it being just a water crystal) so it would be impossible to see through
it on the astral plane. Rain would be a different matter, although of
course it breaks light, so its effect on the astral plane is open to
question...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een schaap in wolfskleren.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:51:47 -0400
>>> The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
09/18/96 06:03pm >>>


> Correct.
> Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties
to nothing.
> It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are
made of physical > particles which block astral
perception the same as trees leaves / > walls etc do.

Oooooh... is there anything in the rules about this?
'Cause otherwise, since fog/rain/snow etc isn't living,
I'd tend to say that the aura stands out like a beacon
(think about looking _at_ car headlights in mist/fog...)


Lady Jestyr
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Actually seeing car headlights in fog is rather
difficult and depends greatly on the fog thickness.
Since the Fog actually disperses the light you can get
a general idea where a light source is but not be able
to see the light source it self. That's one of the
reason's light houses were built so high. Improves
visabilaty because it is above the low fog and the
ships can look up through less fog than looking
across the water through the fog.
Anyway, the way I work fog/snow/rain is to just
reduce the modifiers to all of them by 2 since they
are"opaque" for the most part to normal human
senses. This also has to be rationalized with the
degree of fog/snow/rain. A blizzard causing white out
conditions is going to be a +8 TN to begin with while a
snow flurry will be MAYBE a +1 TN.
Since they (FASA) seem to believe that water affects
the Astral plane only in the visual sense I would
consider water to have the same effect as smoke in
relation to the astral plane.
Message no. 13
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:53:30 -0500
> > Correct.
> > Astral perception will reduce most lighting penaties
> to nothing.
> > It will not overcome fog/rain/snow etc, these are
> made of physical > particles which block astral
> perception the same as trees leaves / > walls etc do.


*hrm* would astral perception also \knock out other penalties? like
hearing things over music, or similar? or is it purely visual penalties
it overcomes?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
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Message no. 14
From: "Rookie" <rookie@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:26:35 -0600
> *hrm* would astral perception also \knock out other penalties? like
> hearing things over music, or similar? or is it purely visual penalties
> it overcomes?

Well I would probably say that if it where live Music it would not get ride
of the penalties but yes it would if it where from like a CD player or Trid
etc... But then you could also have the back ground count kick in. There
could be emotions from the person listening to the Music that could effect
Astral Space.


-Rookie


And when it comes the living will envy the dead!

Rookie@*******.com
55464@**.ev.maricopa.edu
http://www.netzone.com/~rookie
Message no. 15
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Spell Targetting -aura -Reply -Reply
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:32:58 GMT
Galen writes

> *hrm* would astral perception also \knock out other penalties? like
> hearing things over music, or similar? or is it purely visual penalties
> it overcomes?
>
I think its only visual, SR seens to refer to it as visual
perception, you would have to get an answer out of Tom Dowd i think
for anything better than, no i don't think so.

Mark

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