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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:32:07 -0400
NOTE: Spoiler for TOTAL ECLIPSE contained within this mail!!!

YOu have been warned :]

At 02:29 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote these timeless words:

>#>I have seen no spider spirit variants.
>#>
If you mean variants of the Spider from Bug City, there has been no
official one mentioned yet... However, Spider in the game sourcebooks and
novels has been presented in two different lights. Plus I have a variant
version on my web page...

>#The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)
>
No, they're worse...:] (Sorry, I'm REALLY arachnaphobic in RL)

>didn't I read somewhere that the spider was considered "good"
>
They are... At least compared to the "normal" bugs. But then, even
official stuff has conflicting info.

Bug City more or less makes them out to be a normal totem, albeit one that
opposes the Insect Spirits, probably due to the nature of Spiders and Insects.

Total Eclipse presented a quite evil Spider. One that was willing to kill
anyone and use anyone who got in Its way, including it's own Shaman, all of
whome it sacrificed to gain entry into this world (Whether that was
Physically Spider, just a Large Spider Spirit, or simply a metaphysical
manifestion, who knows. It never really explained). Sounds a lot like
Insect Spirit mentality to me.

Also, in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, Niko and Stryper came into conflict
with Spider (after Sma Verner released it from a magical prison by
accident) and fought what had a VERY similar description as Insect
Fleshforms, which didn;t exist then...

personally, I consider Spider to be in the same league as Mantis. Not
Evil, per se, simply selfish, and willing to do whatever necessary to
achieve their goals, though they don;t go out of their way to destroy
humanity. however, Spider seems to have Its eye on ruling the world under
Its web, whereas Mantis is more concerned with growing in power and hunting
bugs. Mantis' goals also seem to be more hidden than Spider, though both
work in great secrecy...

<shrug>

I guess it boils down to how you want to play it. There are possibly two
totally different Spider Totems out there. After all, there were cultures
that had Spider as a Spirit Totem God thingy, and considered it beneficial
and helpful. Other Cultures saw Spider as evil, greedy, and wanting to
dominate all.

I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
"benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty, Bad
and should be crushed whenever possible! :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 2
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:36:51 -0500
At 04:32 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
#I guess it boils down to how you want to play it. There are possibly two
#totally different Spider Totems out there. After all, there were cultures
#that had Spider as a Spirit Totem God thingy, and considered it beneficial
#and helpful. Other Cultures saw Spider as evil, greedy, and wanting to
#dominate all.
#
#I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
#"benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty, Bad
#and should be crushed whenever possible! :]

Don't tell me that Big Burly Bull is afraid of a little spider!



On another note, do specific spiders also have totems, officially?
Or are they all grouped into one Arachnid totem?
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:17:42 -0400
At 03:36 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote these timeless words:
>At 04:32 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
>#I guess it boils down to how you want to play it. There are possibly two
>#totally different Spider Totems out there. After all, there were cultures
>#that had Spider as a Spirit Totem God thingy, and considered it beneficial
>#and helpful. Other Cultures saw Spider as evil, greedy, and wanting to
>#dominate all.
>#
>#I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
>#"benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty, Bad
>#and should be crushed whenever possible! :]
>
>Don't tell me that Big Burly Bull is afraid of a little spider!
>
Bull the Character has a serious problem with Bugs in general, but that's
because he spent a year in hell fighting them in Bugs City (and beforehand).

Bull the Player is terrified of Spiders....:/

>On another note, do specific spiders also have totems, officially?
>Or are they all grouped into one Arachnid totem?
>
There aren;t any specific spider totems yet, simply "Spider", but there's
no reason you couldn;t make specific Spider Totems... Black WIdow could
fun for the Femme Fatale's out there...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 4
From: Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:29:20 -0500
>
> I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
> "benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty, Bad
> and should be crushed whenever possible! :]

yeah, but you like Mantises,righy? Because if you dont,I'll come visit
you.Mantis spirits are not changed Shamans they are a whole other being,
and not one has ever been a shaman or had any magical potential.
-Sake,the toxic Mantis Shaman
Message no. 5
From: Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:34:09 -0500
Where can I buy Bug city?
Message no. 6
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:29:02 -0500
At 07:17 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
#At 03:36 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote these timeless words:
#>At 04:32 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
#
#>On another note, do specific spiders also have totems, officially?
#>Or are they all grouped into one Arachnid totem?
#>
#There aren;t any specific spider totems yet, simply "Spider", but there's
#no reason you couldn;t make specific Spider Totems... Black WIdow could
#fun for the Femme Fatale's out there...;]
#

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Funnel Web, Red Back or
something similar.

The Red Back is a reclusive spider that has a habit of coming up at the
wrong time. I.e. Red Back on the Toilet Seat

;)
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 7
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:48:57 -0400
At 06:34 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>Where can I buy Bug city?
>
Check your game, hobby, and book stores. I think it's still in print, but
it might not be anymore...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 8
From: "Carlton B. Davis" <davisc74@***.ACS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:53:45 -0500
On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Bull wrote:

> NOTE: Spoiler for TOTAL ECLIPSE contained within this mail!!!
>
> YOu have been warned :]
>
> Total Eclipse presented a quite evil Spider. One that was willing to kill
> anyone and use anyone who got in Its way, including it's own Shaman, all of
> whome it sacrificed to gain entry into this world (Whether that was
> Physically Spider, just a Large Spider Spirit, or simply a metaphysical
> manifestion, who knows. It never really explained). Sounds a lot like
> Insect Spirit mentality to me.
>
> Also, in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, Niko and Stryper came into conflict
> with Spider (after Sma Verner released it from a magical prison by
> accident) and fought what had a VERY similar description as Insect
> Fleshforms, which didn;t exist then...

I'm right in the middle of running that adventure now, and if you check
the module, I'm pretty sure that the spirit Sam frees and the spirit in
Total Eclipse are one and the same. The module described the spirit as a
powerful and evil free spirit, and the shaman as a slightly mad Spider
Shaman. The Shaman was attempting to heal the spirit as part of a bargain
to gain more power, not because it was his totem. I wouldn't be surprised
if he qualified as a toxic spider shaman.
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:32:58 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-15 16:37:14 EDT, you write:

> I guess it boils down to how you want to play it. There are possibly two
> totally different Spider Totems out there. After all, there were cultures
> that had Spider as a Spirit Totem God thingy, and considered it beneficial
> and helpful. Other Cultures saw Spider as evil, greedy, and wanting to
> dominate all.

Something we have done with the Spider shamans is that in addition to being
just a spider shaman, they also follow the descriptions for the various named
spiders, like Wolf Spider, Garden SPider, Kingfisher, and follow the
attitudes and mannerisms of those same spiders.

> I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
> "benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty, Bad
> and should be crushed whenever possible! :]
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:31:26 +0100
Bull said on 16:32/15 Sep 97...

> >#>I have seen no spider spirit variants.
> >#>
> If you mean variants of the Spider from Bug City, there has been no
> official one mentioned yet... However, Spider in the game sourcebooks and
> novels has been presented in two different lights. Plus I have a variant
> version on my web page...

The earliest version I've seen is in Sprawl Sites, where in one of the
encounters an NPC is a spider shaman, which is slowly driving him insane.
However in Bug City the totem is portrayed as much more "user-friendly."

> Total Eclipse presented a quite evil Spider. One that was willing to kill
> anyone and use anyone who got in Its way, including it's own Shaman, all of
> whome it sacrificed to gain entry into this world (Whether that was
> Physically Spider, just a Large Spider Spirit, or simply a metaphysical
> manifestion, who knows. It never really explained). Sounds a lot like
> Insect Spirit mentality to me.

I don't think that was spider, but I'm not going to say more because I now
own Total Eclipse but haven't run (or really read) it yet and one of my
players is on the list...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spider (was/Still Is Re: Bugs)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:55:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-16 01:48:30 EDT, davisc74@***.ACS.UWOSH.EDU writes:

>
> I'm right in the middle of running that adventure now, and if you check
> the module, I'm pretty sure that the spirit Sam frees and the spirit in
> Total Eclipse are one and the same. The module described the spirit as a
> powerful and evil free spirit, and the shaman as a slightly mad Spider
> Shaman. The Shaman was attempting to heal the spirit as part of a bargain
> to gain more power, not because it was his totem. I wouldn't be surprised
> if he qualified as a toxic spider shaman.
>
This brings up something that my character a while back said...

"If you have ever 'seen' a Spider Shaman(ess) in the world, and they are
actively involved in an activity of some sort, then they are likely to be
'toxic', as Mother doesn't approve of her 'true brood' to be so bold."

It was cool, but it has become the basis for an argument. The "Threat
Rating" of the Bug Shamans is for their "alien nature", kind of like a form
of Initiation. If there is a difference in them as well, could they have
both Threat (Toxic) and Threat (Alien Nature) ratings?

-K

Further Reading

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