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Message no. 1
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:30:11 -0700
You know, I have YET to read anything in any of the FASA books about
elves being really and truelly immortal. It seems to be presented as
more like a dirty rumor, or some kind of Tir (Taingire or Na Nog)
propoganda. And to tell you the truth, I don't buy it. Spike babies, I
think I can accept, but immortal elves? I don't think so. I challenge
people out there to either give me FASA proof, or to give me a good
logical scientific/magical answer. And please, don't give me a
collection of rumors. Just because you repeat it enough times doesn't
make it true. I want something substantial.

On the other hand, I think I like the idea of spike dwarves. They seem
to be the most underdeveloped race for FASA. So maybe they can "spike",
or may have some powers (Earthdawn style) that no one knows about.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 2
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 15:38:49 -0500
Only thing you have to remember about elven immortality is that
elves have been alive, in one body, for thousands of years.

Harlequin and Ehran, for instance, are from (at least) the 4th cycle.
We're in the 6th now.

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 3
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:44:17 -0700
> Only thing you have to remember about elven immortality is that
> elves have been alive, in one body, for thousands of years.
>
> Harlequin and Ehran, for instance, are from (at least) the 4th cycle.
> We're in the 6th now.

People keep saying that. What I want is PROOF!!

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler

PS: Maybe we should e-mail the Dark Lord On High and see if he will give
us an answer? Not likely, but worth a try?
Message no. 4
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:31:30 -0500
> People keep saying that. What I want is PROOF!!

They keep referring to the old world.

As for them being the same world...well, there ARE going to be ED/SR
crossover books...

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 5
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:48:09 EST
> You know, I have YET to read anything in any of the FASA books
about
> elves being really and truelly immortal. It seems to be presented
as
> more like a dirty rumor, or some kind of Tir (Taingire or Na Nog)
> propoganda. And to tell you the truth, I don't buy it. Spike babies, I
> think I can accept, but immortal elves? I don't think so. I challenge
> people out there to either give me FASA proof, or to give me a good
> logical scientific/magical answer.
>
> Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler


Seems we have a Tir national in our midsts. Sorry chummer, no
"hard and heavy" proof exists. But there is SCIENTIFIC speculation
that elves(and all <meta>humanity) has a "stopwatch complex". The
"proof" is in the Tir Taringaire SB, in open forum. Though I cannot
remember the scientists name, s/he had the genetic maps of elves,
and proved that elves live a long time. Had something to do with a
gene kicking in about puberty or so and slowing down the metabolic
processes. But this scientist also admitted that s/he could not find
the "turn-off" gene to stop the stopwatch gene. Though this does not
mean that elves can be immortal, a couple comments by Laughing
Man and his accomplice(dunno 'is name either) point that it is indeed
possible. Elven scientists just say that elves can live about 150-200
years, only after retracting a study a year earlier that said elves could
live 500 or more years. And since no elves have died of old age, no
one is sure.



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 6
From: Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:11:35 -0400
> Harlequin and Ehran, for instance, are from (at least) the 4th cycle.
>We're in the 6th now.

And each lasts somewhere around 10,000 years I believe, or was that 10,000
on approach to mana peak, and 10,000 after mana peak then another 20k in
between. And also, didn't the fourth age last a lot longer than it was
supposed to, leading to maybe a good 30 - 40k age. Assuming my numbers are
right (and there is a good possibilty that I am off by a factor of 2 to
high) H is at least aroun 11k years old, and he knew about horrors, whichg
cannot be around until the Mana is near peak, so stretch that to 14k years
assuming he was born 1000 years after the mana peaked, or 34k if it is 20k ages.

He still appears to be a young man if I remember right.

D@|\/||\| he does appear close to immortal. Of course, this all assumes he
was born just in time to catch the last fringes of the Horrors, ED game time
where no more horrors can cross, but the ones here are still able to exist.
He could have been born in a Kaern, and that could age him anothe 1 to 7k years.

And I thought T$R elves lived a long time!

Brian McCallister The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Skrub Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule. -R. Jordan
<mccllstr@*****.bucknell.edu>
Message no. 7
From: Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:13:41 -0400
>People keep saying that. What I want is PROOF!!

Pull out a WWW browswer and hit the server that someone (Calvinoi?) has for
a short story called "....... from the Past" I cannot remember the first
word. Then read the ED book about Vestrial.


Brian McCallister The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Skrub Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule. -R. Jordan
<mccllstr@*****.bucknell.edu>
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 15:46:39 -0700
On Thu, 20 Oct 1994, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> > Harlequin and Ehran, for instance, are from (at least) the 4th cycle.
> > We're in the 6th now.
>
> People keep saying that. What I want is PROOF!!

How about picking up a copy of the Harlequinn campaign book.
Neat picture of the front, nice smile and swords and stuff.
Now, flip the module over. Read the back, starting with the part that
says "Imagine a hatred that has lasted 5000 years ..."
Now, glance down at the UPC and the FASA symbol and this
completes the proof.

> Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:49:28 -0400
>>>>> "Erik" == Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
writes:

Erik> You know, I have YET to read anything in any of the FASA books about
Erik> elves being really and truelly immortal.

Early printings of the first edition Shadowrun rulebook stated that...
lemmee find mine... (third corrected printing, BTW)... "The Elven life
expectancy is unverified; claims that there were Elves already adult when
the UGE syndrome became widespread indicate possible life spans of several
hundred years, but metabolic studies are inconclusive." The second edition
is worded rather significantly differently: "The elf life expectancy is
unverified, with possible life spans of several hundreds of years, but
metabolic studies are inconclusive.

Ok, the way I've seen this discrepancy rationalized is that someone or
several someones of the likes of Ehran or Harlequin deliberately suppressed
a goodly chunk of the initial findings, especially entire references to
spike babies of any sort.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 10
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 17:48:50 -0700
>You know, I have YET to read anything in any of the FASA books about
>elves being really and truelly immortal. It seems to be presented as
>more like a dirty rumor, or some kind of Tir (Taingire or Na Nog)
>propoganda. And to tell you the truth, I don't buy it. Spike babies, I
>think I can accept, but immortal elves? I don't think so. I challenge
>people out there to either give me FASA proof,

Ok - for one - FASA ISN'T going to come right out and say (that often) that
certain elves are immortal - they usually will print Truth w/ Rumors - thats
what ShadowRun is about. They will give 1 part truth to two parts rumor or 1
part rumor to 2 parts truth - and then leave you to figure it out or just
decide. In shadowRun - Knowledge is Data is Power - Whether the the Knowledge
is true or not.

Proof - ALL the dragon are fourth world people. - that was admitted.

Harlequin and Ehran - check out Harlequin - there's proof in their.
heck - the back cover say "a hatred over 5000 years old"

on Proof - to the world - NONE. The immortals tend to not advertise themselves

> or to give me a good
>logical scientific/magical answer.

Scientific proof - see TT - they proved it and then conveniently changed their
answer. Magical - dragons.

>And please, don't give me a
>collection of rumors. Just because you repeat it enough times doesn't
>make it true. I want something substantial.

Actually - if you repeat something often enough it will "true".
remember "Every thing is true - from a certain point of view" - Ben Knobi
Star Wars - The Empire Strikes Back

People will believe what they want to believe until you cram it down their
throat - and then they will twist it to see it from their own reference.

Also - the 6th world hasn't been going long enough for people to notice that
Elves aren't dying.

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 11
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 17:53:50 -0700
> As for them being the same world...well, there ARE going to be ED/SR
>crossover books...

REALLY!!! WHEN!!!!!

Nightfox

I need more info on how to do Nightfox and Seraphy - sigh
Message no. 12
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 20:54:36 -0400
>>>>> "Nightfox" == Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
writes:

Nightfox> Actually - if you repeat something often enough it will "true".
Nightfox> remember "Every thing is true - from a certain point of view" -
Nightfox> Ben Knobi Star Wars - The Empire Strikes Back

I kinda like Sri Syadasti's version, "Everything is true in some sense,
false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some
sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some
sense, true and false and meaningless in some sense."

Go read the Principia Discordia for more details (yes, there happens to be
a link to an on-line copy on my web page!).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 13
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:28:49 -0700
>mean that elves can be immortal, a couple comments by Laughing
>Man and his accomplice(dunno 'is name either) point that it is indeed

Laughinh Man = Harlequin (5000+++ elf)
The Big 'D' = Dunklezahn (Darktooth) The Greater Dragon and TV personality
(also 5000+++)

>live 500 or more years. And since no elves have died of old age, no
>one is sure.

heck - most PEOPLE born AT the awakening (2011) are just reaching middle age.

The oldest person born a Ork or Troll (2021) would be 33.
The avertgae life span of an Ork is 32 years
Nightfox
Message no. 14
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 20:42:16 -0500
> > As for them being the same world...well, there ARE going to
> >crossover books...
>
> REALLY!!! WHEN!!!!!

Check the back of Burning Bright, I believe.

There's going to be the first in a line coming out...in Mid-March '95
(sorry, it was in the front).

First 2 are in ED, 3rd in SR.

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 15
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:54:10 -0700
>And each lasts somewhere around 10,000 years I believe, or was that 10,000

Each cycle is about 5000 years.

They come in the form or a Sine Wave, after a certain point he threshhold has
been past and certain things can happen.

The last age I believe was extended, and this age the magic is coming back
faster than expected.

>Harlequin
>He still appears to be a young man if I remember right.

yes and so do Sean Laverty, Ehran, Lugh Surehand and Anthony Oakforest.

>D@|\/||\| he does appear close to immortal. Of course, this all assumes he
>was born just in time to catch the last fringes of the Horrors, ED game time
>where no more horrors can cross, but the ones here are still able to exist.
>He could have been born in a Kaern, and that could age him anothe 1 to 7k years

Actually, from what I have read - the immortal elves were there during or befroe
the kaerns were made. This assumption is based up the rumor of a language that
is older than Speretheil. This language is mentioned in BOTH ED and SR and in
both it has hardly ever been heard.

>And I thought T$R elves lived a long time!

T$R elves STINK - Gygax had an Ego problem and didn't want Elfs to be taller
than humans.

>Brian McCallister The lions sing and the hills take flight.
> The moon by day, and the sun by night.
> Skrub Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
> Let the Lord of Chaos rule. -R. Jordan


Good book!!!!

Nightfox


BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 16
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:09:00 -0500
On Thu, 20 Oct 1994, Nightfox wrote:

> > As for them being the same world...well, there ARE going to be ED/SR
> >crossover books...
>
> REALLY!!! WHEN!!!!!

Oh god help us all....

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 17
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:12:51 -0500
> Oh god help us all....

Are we back on religion again?

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 18
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:13:01 -0500
On Thu, 20 Oct 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> > Oh god help us all....
>
> Are we back on religion again?

Seems more relevant than airplanes :-)

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 19
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:24:06 -0500
> Seems more relevant than airplanes :-)

But can we combine them?

(From the makers of Bud Lite: AeroSpace Religion!)

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 20
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:00:58 +0100
> >People keep saying that. What I want is PROOF!!
>
> Pull out a WWW browswer and hit the server that someone (Calvinoi?) has for
> a short story called "....... from the Past" I cannot remember the first
> word. Then read the ED book about Vestrial.
>
>
> Brian McCallister The lions sing and the hills take flight.
> The moon by day, and the sun by night.
> Skrub Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
> Let the Lord of Chaos rule. -R. Jordan
> <mccllstr@*****.bucknell.edu>

Yes, and check out Nosferatu as well. An elf in Tir na' nog had a portrait
where she was pierced by thorns as per the Elves of the Blood Forest in
Earthdawn.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
||Web Page: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/zcacma0.html ||
||Email: M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk Cestor@******.com ||
|| zcacma0@**.ucl.ac.uk Micah@******.com ||
|| GCS d--@ H s g+(-) p? au--(+)>++ a- w v++ C++++($) UV++(-) P- L- 3 E-||
|| N++ K W++ M+ V-- -po+ Y++ t+ 5-- jx R++ G+(----) tv b+++ D+ B--- e+ u- ||
|| h- f n+ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 21
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:15:45 +0100
> Laughinh Man = Harlequin (5000+++ elf)
> The Big 'D' = Dunklezahn (Darktooth) The Greater Dragon and TV personality
> (also 5000+++)

> Nightfox

I thought that Dunkelzahn was previously known as Mountainshadow (See first ED
trilogy, last book)

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
||Web Page: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/zcacma0.html ||
||Email: M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk Cestor@******.com ||
|| zcacma0@**.ucl.ac.uk Micah@******.com ||
|| GCS d--@ H s g+(-) p? au--(+)>++ a- w v++ C++++($) UV++(-) P- L- 3 E-||
|| N++ K W++ M+ V-- -po+ Y++ t+ 5-- jx R++ G+(----) tv b+++ D+ B--- e+ u- ||
|| h- f n+ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 22
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 13:07:54 +0200
> >And I thought T$R elves lived a long time!
>
> T$R elves STINK - Gygax had an Ego problem and didn't want Elfs to be taller
> than humans.

T$R elves are a discrace to elvendom, they are sacrilige. They have
absolutely nothing to do with the marvellous, magicall, tall and beautifull,
intelligent and wise, butt-kicking elves of Tolkien. On the other hand
FASA has done the most marvellous job in making it possible for this
legend to live again.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++VS++L>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b+++ D++ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 23
From: "D.O.A. SECURITY" <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:41:27 -0500
Dunky is Mountainshadow. He took the name Dunklezahn when a theif
of the same name entered his lair to pillage (Dunk the theif had
quite a rep.) and was made a snack if I remember right. In this
cycle he honored the memory of the theif by taking his name.

Michael
aka Harlequin
Message no. 24
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spike this!
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:14:42 EST
>
> Laughinh Man = Harlequin (5000+++ elf)
> The Big 'D' = Dunklezahn (Darktooth) The Greater Dragon and TV
personality
> (also 5000+++)


Thanx Nightfox. I didn't realize that these two were so prominent.
Usful info for a run though...



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Spike this!, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!