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Message no. 1
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Spirit combat
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:43:18 GMT
Paolo Marcucci writes
>
> Is there a kind soul that wants to remind me (and all the participants to
> this exquisite board) the rules for spirit combat?
>
ok FASA rules where i remember them and 'what i use when somethings
happens they don't have a rule for'. The real pain about some of this
is the sheer number of holes.


Quite a few references to the capabilities of insect spirits below,
it you don't know read with care [not much of a problem round here i
suspect]


> Specifically:
>
> 1. Hand to hand combat w/o powers
Depends on what it is and where it is.
Physical as you listed astral below.
Only the spirits listed with a H-H damage code can initate this sort
of combat, and use thier reaction as skill unless listed otherwise.
bugs use force not reaction unless you are in Chicago in which case
FASA changed it to reaction, yes that does give the force 10 queen 30
dice + threat rating 10 for a staggering 40 dice hand attack!

the problems start when some enterprising soul wallops a nature
spirit with a sword of fist etc, especially when the spirit win sthe
result. I use reaction as skill and set the damage code a force M,
lacking a FASA one.

You hit it. I think its willpower to hit but no immunity or normal
skill if using killing hands or a weapon focus.

> 2. Combat with powers
well engulf is a hand to hand attack, noxious breath is a ranged area
attack, Storm is simply devastaing and the rest would take for ever
even with the book to remind me.

spells and the like follow normal rules to blow it up, unless its a
bug damaging manipulations work best.

> 3. Astral combat
They all have damage force M, and skill = reac = force, except the
bugs. Which are genarally force or reac (depending on version)
attack, note i still use reac = force * 2 or 3 on the astral as its
really silly if they are slower on the astral [FASA support this one
in Double exposure, force 10 queen 40+D6 manifest, 50+D6 astral, yep
guess whos going first, and i couldn't wonder why one of these still
holds both the astral and physical all time initative records in my
experience]

if you want to wallop it use sorcery or skill, your choice, no
default and most spirits don't have armour.

> 4. Firearms and grenades (my players are avid Aliens fans....)
>
roll willpower to hit (default no pool dice), it gets immunity to
normal weapons (f*2) unless flesh form bug and also gets armour if
2nded grimoire true form bug, yep force 10 queen ant, 30 points of
armour vs firearms!, laugh laugh laugh!


> Bye, Paolo
>

Mark
Message no. 2
From: "Maes, Mike" <maesm@*****.UCSF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:11:21 PST
Subject: Spirit combat
Author: rsms@******.rgu.ac.uk at smtplink-neuro
Date: 9/28/95 7:44 AM


Paolo Marcucci writes
>
> Is there a kind soul that wants to remind me (and all the participants to
> this exquisite board) the rules for spirit combat?
>
ok FASA rules where i remember them and 'what i use when somethings
happens they don't have a rule for'. The real pain about some of this
is the sheer number of holes.


> 4. Firearms and grenades (my players are avid Aliens fans....)
>
roll willpower to hit (default no pool dice), it gets immunity to
normal weapons (f*2) unless flesh form bug and also gets armour if
2nded grimoire true form bug, yep force 10 queen ant, 30 points of
armour vs firearms!, laugh laugh laugh!


> Bye, Paolo
>

Mark


Does that mean bullets bounce off true form spirits or do they still have to
resist with their body?

Mike Maes
maesm@*****.ucsf.edu
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:48:31 +0930
Maes, Mike wrote:
>
> Does that mean bullets bounce off true form spirits or do they still have to
> resist with their body?

It means, under the power of Manifestation, that they get armour against
ranged attacks equal to twice their force.

Yes, this means that if their force is high enough, bullets bounce off.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 4
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:02:39 -0700
>Maes, Mike wrote:
>>
>> Does that mean bullets bounce off true form spirits or do they
>> still have to resist with their body?
>
>Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au It
>means, under the power of Manifestation, that they get armour
>against ranged attacks equal to twice their force.
>
>Yes, this means that if their force is high enough, bullets bounce
>off.

I was under the impression that this did not include Bows and Arrows,
Because they are propelled by the sheer will of the shooter.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 5
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:49:51 MET
>Gary C.:
>Bows and arrows suffer the same rules because they are not melee weapons.
>Melee weapons are the only one capable to be a bridge between the user and
>the spirit.
>A throwing or projectile weapon doesn't touch in a same time the user and
>the spirit.
>A cybergun doesn't allow hitting a spirit without its immunity, instead
>of the fact that gun is an extention of the one who carries it, because
>bullets are not touched by the gun at the time of impact.
>That means you can skip the spirit's armor by firing your weapon on its chest
>(because in this case, there's a bridge).

Please excuse me for my english, I'm french.
Call me Cobra.
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:01:09 -0400
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> It means, under the power of Manifestation, that they get armour against
> ranged attacks equal to twice their force.
>
> Yes, this means that if their force is high enough, bullets bounce off.

Actually, it doesn't. The bullets would bounce off of *hardened*
armor, but the Manifestation power doesn't provide this, just regular
armor. Thus, since the minimum target number is 2, the spirit with a
high force is generally rolling its "body" with a target number of 2.
It's pretty easy to stage down damage this way, but the rounds still have
a chance of doing *something* to the spirit.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:28:01 -0700
>>Gary C.:
<snip section about bows>
>Cobra:
>Bows and arrows suffer the same rules because they are
>not melee weapons. Melee weapons are the only one capable to be
>a bridge between the user and the spirit. A throwing or projectile
>weapon doesn't touch in a same time the user and the spirit. A
>cybergun doesn't allow hitting a spirit without its immunity,
>instead of the fact that gun is an extention of the one who carries
>it, because bullets are not touched by the gun at the time of
>impact. That means you can skip the spirit's armor by firing your
>weapon on its chest (because in this case, there's a bridge).

Gary:
That's correct that cyber-guns don't allow it. But that's because
it is a GUN :) - Guns use gunpowder to propell a piece of metal,
The damage you do to the spirit is due to your willpower thinking
it will do damage. When using a mele-weapon you are allowed you
actual weapon skill (of dice) to do damage, because of the phycical
emotion involved in doing a blow by blow action with this creature.
When using a bow (excluding crossbows) or projectile (knife,shirken)
you are also allowed your skill because again your physical emotion
and your life force (theoretically) is behind the blow. (in this
sense a grenade would do the damage of hurled a stone (if it hit)
and the explosion would do absolutely nothing.)

And no way would I allow a bullet to avoid a spirits armor if you
fire on it's chest, that's silly. :) The spirit force x 2 = armor
has nothing to do with getting past their actual skin, or simply
touching them. It's their resistance to non-living, non-magical
interaction.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 10:54:27 +0930
Gary Carroll wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that this did not include Bows and Arrows,
> Because they are propelled by the sheer will of the shooter.

*slap* Yeah, Bows, 'cept for Crossbows, aren't included in this...
Essentially, if it's a mechanically-based attack, it gets protection from
it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:56:08 +0100
Marc A Renouf said on 29 Sep 95...

> > Yes, this means that if their force is high enough, bullets bounce off.
>
> Actually, it doesn't. The bullets would bounce off of *hardened*
> armor, but the Manifestation power doesn't provide this, just regular
> armor.

That's what I thought, too.

> Thus, since the minimum target number is 2, the spirit with a
> high force is generally rolling its "body" with a target number of 2.

Unless you use my houserule -- for every 2 points that armor reduces the
Power below 0, you get an extra die. Shoot a light pistol at a force 6
elemental, and it gets 3 extra dice to resist...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
FAQ? What is that? :)
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 10
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Spirit combat
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 14:01:42 MET
>Gary C. :
>And no way would I allow a bullet to avoid a spirits armor if you
>fire on it's chest, that's silly. :) The spirit force x 2 = armor
>has nothing to do with getting past their actual skin, or simply
>touching them. It's their resistance to non-living, non-magical
>interaction.

Cobra:
About game balance: When I say bullet could go through the body of
the spirit without suffering from its immunity, it's a "theological"
point of view. During the game, doing this is impossible because it
won't let you do it, so T.N. would be increased by a minimum of 4
(making this option useless).
Explanation of my point of view: A spirit is a purely magical being
and so has a great armor against non "magical" acts. So, question is
what makes an action to be "magic"?
Clearly (just read how Harlequin uses magic) magic takes its source
in the world (awakened in the world of Shadowrun) and in the will of
the caster. I don't mean willpower caracteristic but the emotion the
caster shows when he wants to affect the world (only Harlequin and
few others really master this emotion).
In the case of spirit combat, emotion is great enough when the attacker
is at contact. But to actually affect the spirit, the life force must
be directed in the real being of the spirit, which is its astral form.
To do so, you must arrange for your life force to touch its being.
That's why ranged weapons(be it firearms or throwing weapons and the
like) do not affect the spirit. So, if you are at close range, only
your willpower does act and by this mean, you are able to go through
its armor. Because a weapon is an extension of you, you can use damage
of the weapon instead of only using your fist. Firearms are too an
extension of you. And if you want your life force to be directed to
the essence of the spirit, you must make the extension of you touch the
spirit, be it a gun or a melee weapon.
Message no. 11
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Spirit Combat
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:44:29 -0500
OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:

The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks (including
elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to Force). Against
ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any weapon with a
Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt the spirit at all
(making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).

Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for Armed
and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:
* Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes the
Killing Hands power of physical adepts.
* An attacker in melee combat with a spirit can make a Willpower Test against
the spirit's Force at the start of each Combat Turn. The successes are
subtracted from the spirit's Armor against all of that attacker's melee
attacks that turn. This does not affect the spirit's Armor rating against
other attacks. This represents the "warrior will" ability of strong-willing
people to better overcome spirits.

Thoughts? Feedback? Flames? Flying carps? Let me know.

Take care,
Steve K.
Message no. 12
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:42 -0500
> From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
> Date: Friday, December 19, 1997 4:44 PM

> OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
> somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
> weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:

<Snip>

> Thoughts? Feedback? Flames? Flying carps? Let me know.

Mostly good, but I like the way Willpower is used in place of weapon skills
currently. IMO, I think it works well. I do, however, like the idea of
one unified Spirit Combat section that puts this all together nicely.

> Take care,
> Steve K.

Justin :)
Message no. 13
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:23:58 +0000
On 19 Dec 97, Steve Kenson disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip rules>

I like it, but I also like the way it was set up before, with
Willpower being the main factor. (Of course, I used a house rule that
Willpower dice you roll are limited by the skill, but that's entirely
another matter).

Overall, I like the new way. Implementing now. <grin> Why wait for
SR3? ;P

However, one thing should be stated clearly - that technological
enhancements like APDS do not count. This way, this force 6 Fire
elemental won't be vulnerable to an Ares Predator just 'cause you're
packing APDS.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
[I] trust him like a brother...that is to say, not at all. - Amber adage
Message no. 14
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:00:29 EST
In a message dated 97-12-19 18:03:58 EST, Steve Kenson writes:

> The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
> spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks (including
> elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to Force).
Against
> ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any weapon with
> a
> Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt the spirit at all
> (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).
>
> Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for
Armed
> and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:
> * Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes
the
> Killing Hands power of physical adepts.
> * An attacker in melee combat with a spirit can make a Willpower Test
> against
> the spirit's Force at the start of each Combat Turn. The successes are
> subtracted from the spirit's Armor against all of that attacker's melee
> attacks that turn. This does not affect the spirit's Armor rating against
> other attacks. This represents the "warrior will" ability of
strong-willing
> people to better overcome spirits.
>

For argument's sake (and just to be a total bastard about this :) what would
you consider ramming a spirit with a vehicle to be?

-- Jon
Message no. 15
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:43:57 -0500
Steve Kenson[SMTP:TalonMail@***.COM] wrote:
> OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
> somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
> weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:
>
> The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
> spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks (including
> elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to Force).
Against
> ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any weapon
with a
> Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt the spirit at all
> (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).

I'll buy that, with a sub-clause for bows being willpower-driven weapons.
(Although I'm not entirely sure about x-bows being non-willpower driven
(unless the x-bows in SR tend to have powered draw mechanisms. Que sera
sera, I suppose)

> Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for
Armed
> and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:
> * Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes
the
> Killing Hands power of physical adepts.
> * An attacker in melee combat with a spirit can make a Willpower Test
against
> the spirit's Force at the start of each Combat Turn. The successes are
> subtracted from the spirit's Armor against all of that attacker's melee
> attacks that turn. This does not affect the spirit's Armor rating against
> other attacks. This represents the "warrior will" ability of
strong-willing
> people to better overcome spirits.

Charisma would be a better test, representing (to me) the ability of the
person to convince the spirit it just took damage.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 16
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:51:01 -0500
>Charisma would be a better test, representing (to me) the ability of the
>person to convince the spirit it just took damage.

I actually used to use something similar. The average of Willpower and
Charisma. Willpower to represent force of will, and Charisma representing
force of personality. But then I got better after I decided to ignore the
whole idea of using stats instead of skills vs. spirits. I'm personally
sick of the spirits conjured by my PCs squashing my bad guys. Since the
characters in my game are extremely experienced (we've been playing with
the same characters for over 3 years) the mages yawn after summoning force
10 elementals. A dozen or more force 10-14 elementals can dust quite a few
bad guys. Of course this swings both ways, that's why I give spirits of all
kinds hardened armor equal to their force, as well as their body in regular
armor vs. non muscle powered attacks.
Magicians and their spirits don't need to be any more gassed. Period.

Craig J Wilhelm Jr
Life's just one damned thing after another.
Afterlife RPG Page

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/arpgp/
UIN: 1864690
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:58:09 +0100
Steve Kenson said on 16:44/19 Dec 97...

> The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
> spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks (including
> elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to Force). Against
> ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any weapon with a
> Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt the spirit at all
> (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).

That last rule may be virtually unnecessary. High-Force spirits are pretty
much immune to bullets anyway, and heavy weapons (panther cannons, etc.)
will still hurt them unless they're of really high Force (10 or so).

> Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for Armed
> and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:
> * Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes the
> Killing Hands power of physical adepts.

With "Armor", do you mean the (2x Essence) armor that spirits get from
their limited Immunity to Normal Weapons power, or the armor that critters
like insect spirits have "built in"?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's crap but we love it!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:05:33 -0500
> From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> Date: Saturday, December 20, 1997 1:43 AM

<Snip>

> Charisma would be a better test, representing (to me) the ability of the
> person to convince the spirit it just took damage.

Excuse me? What are you going to do - stop in the middle of combat and
talk the spirit into dying? "I'm sorry Mr. Earth Elemental, but I just
kicked you and it really did hurt you, ya know."

I just don't buy it. There's no time for that in combat. Willpower still
makes the most sense to me. I like the system as it stands in the canon
rules. My only gripe is that the rules for spirit combat are spread all
over the place.

> --
> Quicksilver rides again

Justin :)
Message no. 19
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:09:12 -0500
> From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
> Date: Saturday, December 20, 1997 3:51 AM

> >Charisma would be a better test, representing (to me) the ability of the
> >person to convince the spirit it just took damage.

> I actually used to use something similar. The average of
Willpower and
> Charisma. Willpower to represent force of will, and Charisma representing
> force of personality. But then I got better after I decided to ignore the
> whole idea of using stats instead of skills vs. spirits. I'm personally
> sick of the spirits conjured by my PCs squashing my bad guys. Since the
> characters in my game are extremely experienced (we've been playing with
> the same characters for over 3 years) the mages yawn after summoning
force
> 10 elementals. A dozen or more force 10-14 elementals can dust quite a
few
> bad guys. Of course this swings both ways, that's why I give spirits of
all
> kinds hardened armor equal to their force, as well as their body in
regular
> armor vs. non muscle powered attacks.
> Magicians and their spirits don't need to be any more gassed.
Period.

This is where I put in my 2 NY. ;)

You aren't having a problem with powerful spirits, you are having a problem
with powerful PCs. Sure, PCs should gain power over time. However, I
would find it extremely difficult to justify ANY magician who can summon
Force 10 Elementals in his sleep staying in the shadows as a runner. I
mean, come on. WHY would anyone risk their life on a daily basis just to
make more money when they could be making just as much money selling their
services legally?

It just doesn't make any sense. The best solution to your problem would be
to have the players create new characters and start over. There is a time
and place for everything - including character retirement. The spirits are
fine the way they are.

> Craig J Wilhelm Jr

Justin :)
Message no. 20
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:43:48 -0500
>This is where I put in my 2 NY. ;)

This is where I give you your change. :)

>You aren't having a problem with powerful spirits, you are having a problem
>with powerful PCs.

No, I'm having problems with powerful magicians and their spirits. The
other characters, including the PhysAd, are no problem.

>Sure, PCs should gain power over time. However, I
>would find it extremely difficult to justify ANY magician who can summon
>Force 10 Elementals in his sleep staying in the shadows as a runner. I
>mean, come on. WHY would anyone risk their life on a daily basis just to
>make more money when they could be making just as much money selling their
>services legally?

Actually they are doing it legaly (sort of). The team is a military shadow
ops/special investigative team. They were pivitol in beginning the clean up
of Chicago (which is one place I had NO problem with their nasty
spirits...) for an example of their work. Now they are investigating the
death of The Big D.
I agree with your points, I just should have explained a little furthur.

>It just doesn't make any sense. The best solution to your problem would be
>to have the players create new characters and start over. There is a time
>and place for everything - including character retirement.

I (as well as the group) agree. We plan on retiring the team in a few more
months. We're still having fun, but it will soon be time to stuff this
group into the Bag of NPC Holding:)

>The spirits are fine the way they are.

I just don't think so. Magic, spell wise, I have no real problem with,
spirits on the other hand, are a real pain in my ass.

I'm sorry, ignore me, I'm just doing my GM grumble.

P E A C E !

Craig J Wilhelm Jr
Life's just one damned thing after another.
Afterlife RPG Page

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/arpgp/
UIN: 1864690
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Message no. 21
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:36:24 -0600
On 12/19/97 16:44:29 you wrote:
>
>OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
>somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
>weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:
>

These seem simple, concise, and to the point, Steve; more of these are needed in this
game. CAre
to tackle the Barrier rules in likewise fashion, both normal and astral?

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:08:53 EST
In a message dated 97-12-20 03:51:33 EST, craigjwjr@*********.NET writes:

> I actually used to use something similar. The average of Willpower
and
> Charisma. Willpower to represent force of will, and Charisma representing
> force of personality. But then I got better after I decided to ignore the
> whole idea of using stats instead of skills vs. spirits. I'm personally
> sick of the spirits conjured by my PCs squashing my bad guys. Since the
> characters in my game are extremely experienced (we've been playing with
> the same characters for over 3 years) the mages yawn after summoning force
> 10 elementals. A dozen or more force 10-14 elementals can dust quite a few
> bad guys. Of course this swings both ways, that's why I give spirits of all
> kinds hardened armor equal to their force, as well as their body in regular
> armor vs. non muscle powered attacks.
> Magicians and their spirits don't need to be any more gassed.
Period.
>
>
(Keith Pondering Here)

Ya know, this situation sounds really familiar...might I suggest that the next
time the "yawning" magician pulls this one, a magician on the "other
side"
offers the elemental in question some karma and assistance in going free in
exchange for -not- pulverizing him or his comrades. We've done it before, and
it's ain't so bad, it forces the magician to really consider his actions a
bit.

Also, a spirit is subject to Background Count just as everyone else (magical)
is. Some of their powers, even their ability to attack is adjusted heavily
because of this.

-K
Message no. 23
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:09:58 +0100
At 19-Dez-97 wrote Steve Kenson:

[snip]
>Thoughts? Feedback? Flames? Flying carps? Let me know.

Sounds good at a first glance. I like it.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:20:36 -0500
At 08:09 AM 12/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>This is where I put in my 2 NY. ;)
>
>You aren't having a problem with powerful spirits, you are having a problem
>with powerful PCs. Sure, PCs should gain power over time. However, I
>would find it extremely difficult to justify ANY magician who can summon
>Force 10 Elementals in his sleep staying in the shadows as a runner. I
>mean, come on. WHY would anyone risk their life on a daily basis just to
>make more money when they could be making just as much money selling their
>services legally?

It's hard to 'go legal' after a long shadow career. Think of all the
enemies you've made, if nothing else, waiting for you to pop up again and
become vulnerable.

>It just doesn't make any sense. The best solution to your problem would be
>to have the players create new characters and start over. There is a time
>and place for everything - including character retirement. The spirits are
>fine the way they are.

*nod*

losthalo
Message no. 25
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:20:14 -0500
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Steve Kenson wrote:

> OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
> somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
> weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:

From the framer's mouth (Paul Hume), I learned that he didn't even
originally WANT spirits to be affected in the physical world, and the
"abortion" (his words) that they came up with to cover it in the first
place was mostly a concession to the people who wanted it to be the case
lest magic be too overpowering. In my opinion (as in his I bet), any
improvement would be a good improvement to these crappy rules.

> The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
> spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks (including
> elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to Force). Against
> ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any weapon with a
> Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt the spirit at all
> (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).

I do not believe that this power should apply to any *magical* attacks
(such as spells including elemental manipulation spells). That is to say,
I would believe that a spell would target the astral critter, not the
physical form; manipulations do that too--affect astrally, only primarily
they ground out physically). They don't strike me as "normal weapons".

> Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for Armed
> and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:
> * Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes the
> Killing Hands power of physical adepts.
> * An attacker in melee combat with a spirit can make a Willpower Test against
> the spirit's Force at the start of each Combat Turn. The successes are
> subtracted from the spirit's Armor against all of that attacker's melee
> attacks that turn. This does not affect the spirit's Armor rating against
> other attacks. This represents the "warrior will" ability of strong-willing
> people to better overcome spirits.
>


A few comments:

First, a decision must be made about the Power of any physical attacks in
melee. Is it Willpower? Is it Strength? Even worse, what about the
dread Monofilament Whip? Do I do 10S in melee combat to a spirit with
one? These questions need to be answered in SR 3.

Second, I would suggest that for Elementals, use of attacks in the
physical world or spells which use elemental effects that oppose the
spirit's element would have additional effect. For example, were I to
turn a firehose on a Fire Elemental and blast it with water, I would
suggest the attack have a power level or some other effect which would
directly harm the elemental due to the opposing element. Since water has
an elemental signature similar to that of the water elemental's signature,
this should have some effect. I believe opposing elementals should have
different effects in combat against one another (fire vs. fire being less
impressive than fire vs. water, for example.)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:37:42 +0000
On 21 Dec 97, Scott Roberts disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

<snip Spirit armor against damaging manipulations etc.>

> I do not believe that this power should apply to any *magical*
> attacks (such as spells including elemental manipulation spells).
> That is to say, I would believe that a spell would target the astral
> critter, not the physical form; manipulations do that too--affect
> astrally, only primarily they ground out physically). They don't
> strike me as "normal weapons".

No? Wowie! In this case my defense dice from Magic Pool and Shielding
WILL affect Damaging Manipulations! Cool! Now I'm indestructible via
magic! ;>
(OTOH they could already, as IDHTBBBIFOM, and we use a whole slew of
house rules...)

Anyway, IMAO Damaging Manipulations create an entirely non-magical
effect, that's why they can be dodged etc. In this case, Spirit Armor
should apply to them...

<snip melee vs. spirits>

> Second, I would suggest that for Elementals, use of attacks in the
> physical world or spells which use elemental effects that oppose the
> spirit's element would have additional effect. For example, were I
> to turn a firehose on a Fire Elemental and blast it with water, I
> would suggest the attack have a power level or some other effect
> which would directly harm the elemental due to the opposing element.

Well, Fire elemental is vulnerable to water, neh? And this is as an
elemental attack, so the spirit's Armor is halved. Should work...

> Since water has an elemental signature similar to that of the water
> elemental's signature, this should have some effect. I believe
> opposing elementals should have different effects in combat against
> one another (fire vs. fire being less impressive than fire vs.
> water, for example.)

Well, IIRC opposing elementals just subtract each other. The GM can
describe it as being VERY IMPRESSIVE, though. <grin>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
HEY LOOK, Ifixxedthat spacebarproblem. ohdarn.
Message no. 27
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:40:44 -0500
JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM> wrote:
>For argument's sake (and just to be a total bastard about this :) what would
>you consider ramming a spirit with a vehicle to be?

Non-melee combat. The spirit gets its full armor rating (twice it's Force)
against the impact. Running down an elemental or nature spirit isn't going to
hurt it a whole lot unless you've got a BIG vehicle with a LOT of momentum.
Even a vehicle "backed" by a rigger's will doesn't constitute a "melee
attack" IMHO.

Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
>> * Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This includes
the
>> Killing Hands power of physical adepts.
>With "Armor", do you mean the (2x Essence) armor that spirits get from
>their limited Immunity to Normal Weapons power, or the armor that critters
>like insect spirits have "built in"?

The former. Immunity to Normal Weapons does not protect against magical
attacks like weapon foci, killing hands or spells. Natural armor (like that
of flesh-form bugs) does.

Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET> wrote:
>I do not believe that this power should apply to any *magical* attacks
>(such as spells including elemental manipulation spells). That is to say,
>I would believe that a spell would target the astral critter, not the
>physical form; manipulations do that too--affect astrally, only primarily
>they ground out physically). They don't strike me as "normal weapons".

I agree that Immunity to Normal Weapons should not affect COMBAT spells
(which bypass armor entirely), but they should (IMHO) affect damaging
manipulations, which create a real, damaging medium (albeit at the usual half
armor rating vs. elemental effects).

>First, a decision must be made about the Power of any physical attacks in
>melee. Is it Willpower? Is it Strength? Even worse, what about the
>dread Monofilament Whip? Do I do 10S in melee combat to a spirit with
>one? These questions need to be answered in SR 3.

Point taken. I'd tend to say Strength off the top of my head, mainly for
simplicity. There probably should be a rule about purely technological
enhancements (i.e., laser cresent axe, dikote, monofilament) not adding any
damage against a spirit.

The other option I've consider is this: allow a mundane willing to engage a
material spirit in melee combat to fight the spirit using his Mental stats
(ala astral combat). In other words, the mundane attacker uses normal combat
skill, with Charisma in place of Strength, doing (Charisma)M damage,
regardless of what weapon the mundo is armed with (the weapon is nothing more
than a symbol, it's real damage is irrelevant). I say Charisma because it's
consistent with how regular astral combat works (and consistency is a goal of
SR3). The upside is the spirit gets NO armor against the attack. In effect,
the mundane is engaging the spirit in a kind of "astral combat" using the
focused power of the mundane's strength of character.

Under this system, you've got two options for melee combat with a spirit:
normal melee, using all of the regular rules, but the spirit has (Force x 2)
hardened armor. So you can use a monowhip against the spirit, but its armor
is going to reduce the Power, and a Force 5+ spirit is invulnerable to it. Or
you can engage the spirit in "spirit combat," doing (Charisma)M (regardless
of weapon), but ignoring the spirit's armor. Against powerful spirits, it may
be a mundane's only option....

Thoughts?

>Second, I would suggest that for Elementals, use of attacks in the
>physical world or spells which use elemental effects that oppose the
>spirit's element would have additional effect.

That's pretty much taken care of under the spirits' various Vulnerabilities
already. If you blast a fire elemental with water, it takes +1 Wound Level
automatically.

Steve K.
Message no. 28
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:02:40 -0500
On Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 03:40:44PM -0500, Steve Kenson wrote:

<SNIP>
>

> >First, a decision must be made about the Power of any physical attacks in
> >melee. Is it Willpower? Is it Strength? Even worse, what about the
> >dread Monofilament Whip? Do I do 10S in melee combat to a spirit with
> >one? These questions need to be answered in SR 3.
>
> Point taken. I'd tend to say Strength off the top of my head, mainly for
> simplicity. There probably should be a rule about purely technological
> enhancements (i.e., laser cresent axe, dikote, monofilament) not adding any
> damage against a spirit.
>
> The other option I've consider is this: allow a mundane willing to engage a
> material spirit in melee combat to fight the spirit using his Mental stats
> (ala astral combat). In other words, the mundane attacker uses normal combat
> skill, with Charisma in place of Strength, doing (Charisma)M damage,
> regardless of what weapon the mundo is armed with (the weapon is nothing more
> than a symbol, it's real damage is irrelevant). I say Charisma because it's
> consistent with how regular astral combat works (and consistency is a goal of
> SR3). The upside is the spirit gets NO armor against the attack. In effect,
> the mundane is engaging the spirit in a kind of "astral combat" using the
> focused power of the mundane's strength of character.
>
> Under this system, you've got two options for melee combat with a spirit:
> normal melee, using all of the regular rules, but the spirit has (Force x 2)
> hardened armor. So you can use a monowhip against the spirit, but its armor
> is going to reduce the Power, and a Force 5+ spirit is invulnerable to it. Or
> you can engage the spirit in "spirit combat," doing (Charisma)M (regardless
> of weapon), but ignoring the spirit's armor. Against powerful spirits, it may
> be a mundane's only option....
>
> Thoughts?
>

I like the idea of using charisma. It adds consistency and
gives players a reason to have a decent charisma rating. (I pity
the average troll attacking the spriit however).
The only quirk maybe (charisma+willpower)/2? To reflect
that the battle is fought on multiple levels?
That may become a new house rule regardless. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 29
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:25:55 -0500
Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET> said:
> ... I'm personally
> sick of the spirits conjured by my PCs squashing my bad guys. Since the
> characters in my game are extremely experienced (we've been playing with
> the same characters for over 3 years) the mages yawn after summoning force
> 10 elementals. A dozen or more force 10-14 elementals can dust quite a few
> bad guys.

They yawn after spending 10K nuyen per elemental? How many services
are they getting from these elementals? IMHO, a very experienced mage
might conjure with 9 skill, and maybe a Force 6 spirit focus. That's
15 dice (a LOT!), for average 1 service (meaning 1 combat). Ignore
Centering since you probably won't roll 2 successes with a Centering
skill (assuming 6 or so). Granted experienced runners demand and
deserve top nuyen, they need to make a LOT to be able spend 100K nuyen
per fight on elementals. OK, I'd probably give them a bulk discount
on conjuring materials if they went through that much, but that's
still a lot of nuyen.

How do other GMs handle controlling many elementals? The rules say
that elementals on call use 1 service per day, but they aren't that
clear on whether or not a summoned elemental is always considered to
be on call. One interpretation is that an elemental is only on call
when specifically commanded by its conjurer, so a mage could conjure an
infinite number of elementals "just in case". Another interpretation
is that elementals are always on call, so they use one service per
day even if just sitting around. If you use this interpretation or
pick some middle ground, you might be able to limit elemental abuse.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 30
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:14:29 -0500
Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET> said:
> ...
> You aren't having a problem with powerful spirits, you are having a problem
> with powerful PCs. Sure, PCs should gain power over time. However, I
> would find it extremely difficult to justify ANY magician who can summon
> Force 10 Elementals in his sleep staying in the shadows as a runner. I
> mean, come on. WHY would anyone risk their life on a daily basis just to
> make more money when they could be making just as much money selling their
> services legally?

Ideals? I have a mage with a nice Enchanting skill who could make a
fortune enchanting. But he's an idealist, an Elf who believes in doing
what's right, helping people (especially elves) who need help, and all
that drek. He even does part-time charity work for 555-ELFS (magical
consultation, and lots of healing). He runs the shadows to protect the
world from insect spirits, amoral corps, astral nasties, or whetever.

> It just doesn't make any sense. The best solution to your problem would be
> to have the players create new characters and start over. There is a time
> and place for everything - including character retirement. The spirits are
> fine the way they are.

I agree that retirement would be a good idea. That's generally the
best way to handle things if you've let them get out of hand (too
powerful to run). Maybe let them pass on some money or a few items
to the "next generation" to make them feel good, but get the game
back to the power level that the game was designed for. As people
are fond of saying recently, SR is a decent system, but it breaks
down at the extremes.

Another alternative to retirement is to upgrade your villains to
match your runners. Have the villains pay off a street gang to
attack the runner's hideout, to get them to use up their elementals.
Cast Increase Willpower +4 on the gang members, sustained by rent-a-
mages. Include a high powered city spirit concealing one or
more Astral Static spell locks, and watch the elementals stumble
around half blind as the gangers take them out. When the street
gang runs off, get rid of the Astral Static, and hit them with the
real villains controlling their own dozen of force 10-14 elementals.
Use their own tactics against them.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 31
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: re; spirit combat
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:09:05 PST
>From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
>Subject: Spirit Combat
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>OK, personally I think the rules in SR2 for combat against spirits are
somewhat needlessly complicated, leading to questions like the "remote
weapons against spirits" thread. How about this option:
>

I Don't like it, Steve. I LIKE mundanes to be able to scrag spirits.
These rules seem to make that harder. Not every mundane, but a strong,
fast, one with a willpower of 6 and a combat ax should scare any spirit
with force under 6. Teams of gutsy squaters should be able (maybe not
willing) to pull down a force 3 or 4. Neither is gonna happen under
these rules. I cna see that weapon skill should play a bigger role,
butit seems an un-needed change to me.


>
>The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks
(including elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to
Force).
>

I didn't think they got ANY armor against DM's- thats MAGIC, after all.
You could even target a Purley astral spirit with a DM (using astral
perception). Why add armor for DM's but not killing hands?
Am I wrong here? I though DM's had an astral component as well as
physical.

The fact that SOME attack types (melee) offset the sprits armor
completely provides one of the few chances mundanes stand against
spirits.

1/2 armor for "mundanes" smart enough to cook up an elemental attack is
cool, though. Vulnerabilities are fun, too- why don't nature spirits
have any?

>Against ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any
weapon with a Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt
the spirit at all (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).
>

HMM, intetresting, but it reaks of a cludge. If armor "worked better"
in general, this wouldn't be needed.
With the rules as is, spirits can usually resist all the damage because
the attackers success is limited to willpower. Thats good enough.
I'd like to continue to see a full auto 10 round burst able to rip a
spirit up. They are really physically present and should be at risk- it
should be a matter of "welcome to my world, yah fraggin ghost! (buddah
buddah buddah, damn, budddah buddah buddah buddah buddah budah, phew)

>
>Melee combat against spirits works normally (use the regular rules for
Armed and Unarmed Combat) with the following modifications:

>* Magical weapons (weapon foci) ignore the spirit's Armor. This
includes the Killing Hands power of physical adepts.

Don't they already?

>* An attacker in melee combat with a spirit can make a Willpower Test
against the spirit's Force at the start of each Combat Turn. The
successes are subtracted from the spirit's Armor against all of that
attacker's melee attacks that turn. This does not affect the spirit's
Armor rating against other attacks. This represents the "warrior will"
ability of strong-willing people to better overcome spirits.
>

<sarcasm> Oh joy. That force 6 spirits armor just dropped to 11 for my
willpower 6 eleven samurai. Now its in trouble. </sarcasm>

I understand that allowing normal combat skill use would be a boost for
mundanes, and solve somequandries, but the improved armor really wrecks
melee fornon- strength enhanced characters. (bug spirits-OUCH- we've yet
to do bug city)

Its a question of having spirits be hard to attack, or, using normal
attacks but making spirts more resistant. Which involves bigger
handfulls of dice? This new system. Why bother?

Some factor for skill would be nice. But its not to important to me-
willpower works, and leads to some interesting play. Course, it also
leads to anyone who meets spirits needing high willpower...

OK, maybe I'm peeved cause my favorite Elven samurai character (using a
staff) has been a pretty good spirit wacker, or at least good at tying
them up. By these rules he'd be less than an anoyance to most spirits,
because they'd get full armor. OTHO, if he whips out that staff, almost
no spirit will hurt him in melee combat. Why create such a situation,
where neither combatant can hut the other?
Encourage spirits to use thier powers, which work quite well- don't let
them scragor ignore every mundane in combat, too. A mage who orders his
spirits into combat is being STUPID, IMO. They should be more subtlely
used.
Having the samuri decide prudence dictates he can do NOTHING against a
combative spirit sucks (he has magical theory, and would decide just
that based on experience under these rules). Kinda ruins the whole
point of samurai in general (that they will fight anything that
challenges).

Force 5-8 spirits are common enough in our game that these rules would
have the effect of making every non magical character a third wheel- why
not just send some spirits insead, if they are tougher than any samurai
or drone? And If a spirit shows up, all the mundanes are just spare
targets.
Thats bad for game play. Good for game play is characters desperatly
grabbing for any big whacking stick, and standing thier ground as a
team. With the current rules, that can work, and smart teams know it.
One side or the other WILL get hurt. With the spits having not so great
attacks and tons of armor, thats no longer so.

Some of the best roleplayed battles we've had were against normal or
toxic spirits, because of the fact that some mundane characters were
willing to risk life and limb in melee beacause that was the only way to
stop the thing, while others (with the SAME stats) ran like frightened
mice by the players choice.

A force without mages is already SCREWED if they get spells of decent
force lobbed at them. Spirits don't even require the mages presence- so
don't totally hose mundanes in fighting them, please?

Mages summoning spirits to finish a run is BOORING. Security spirits
wasting any non mage is no fun. A fix would be nice, but not one that
further advantages the spirits / mages, please. I know a force 6 spirit
is supposedto be NASTY, but in fact it is fairly commonplace for a PC to
have one and a couple force 5's for backup. Free spirits are a serious
threat to most everyone already (in both guile and combat ability).

And Thats not even taking the horror even force 4 BUGS would cause into
acount. Whats the point of folks huddling defensively in Bug City if
they couldn't kill off even a lone trueform roach?

Maybe I'ts just I've played the current way so much- I'm sure I'd be
happy as a mundane NOT getting wacked by every sprit with more than 10
dice to throw at melee.

OTOH, I've never seen spirits as being all that well ARMOURED- more just
kinda insubstantial (fire? how do you hurt FIRE?) Willpower to attack
represents that well- your forcing the spirit to fight on your terms.
The fact that in melee, they get no armor, represts well the nature of
that struggle. Giving them armor all the time and allowing normal
attacks makes it seem more that they are hard, tangible beasts that have
tough shells- true for some, inappropriate for others.

Why not justchange tha ranged attack proccedure to these rules, and
leave melee alone, or allow attaking with willpower vs no armor as an
option if the character has the guts / insight to use it ? maybe requre
having the approprate combat skill- we already impose default penaties
on those tests) ?

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 32
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: re; spirit combat
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:32:31 GMT
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:09:05 PST, Mon goose wrote:

> >From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
> >Subject: Spirit Combat
> >To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET

[snip]

> >The Immunity to Normal Weapons power provides Armor equal to twice the
> spirit's Force against all attacks. Against elemental attacks
> (including elemental manipulation spells) the Armor is halved (equal to
> Force).

[snip]

> >Against ranged weapons of all kinds, the armor is also Hardened, so any
> weapon with a Power that does not exceed the Armor rating cannot hurt
> the spirit at all (making powerful spirits immune to small-arms fire).

This would make even middle-threat (Force 4) spirits almost completely
immune to small-arms fire (hardened armour=8).

> HMM, intetresting, but it reaks of a cludge. If armor "worked better"
> in general, this wouldn't be needed.
> With the rules as is, spirits can usually resist all the damage because
> the attackers success is limited to willpower. Thats good enough.
> I'd like to continue to see a full auto 10 round burst able to rip a
> spirit up. They are really physically present and should be at risk- it
> should be a matter of "welcome to my world, yah fraggin ghost! (buddah
> buddah buddah, damn, budddah buddah buddah buddah buddah budah, phew)

As the originator of the "remote weapons vs. spirits" thread, I'd have to
concur. I wouldn't be terribly interested in playing an RPG where a
particular "character class" or "archetype" didn't have a hope of
affecting
something as common (in Shadowrun) as an elemental or spirit. To make a
point, mages can affect both spiritual creatures *and* mundane ones, yet as
you are proposing, mundanes can affect mundanes, but not spiritual
creatures (most of the time, anyways).

First off, that goes against the grain when it comes to FASA play balance.
The mundanes won't even provide cannon fodder in a clash with a spirit,
since the spirit will know that they cannot affect it. It will then go
straight for the mage, killing him two or three times over before s/he even
gets a chance to act. Then it will finish off the rest of the party one by
one. Fun.

It also rekindles the argument that magic is too powerful in Shadowrun.
"Why can't a mundane use a magical weapon *efficiently* to attack a
spirit?" We do not want to get into those-- err-- discussions :)

I have also never had a problem with the idea of spirits being somewhat
easier to "kill", since their death isn't permanent on our plane. It seems
a bit unfair (again, from a play balance POV) that not only would a Force 4
spirit have 8 points of /hardened/ armour (making nearly all firearms
useless), but they also do not have to worry about truly dying unless they
are attacked by magic.




James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 33
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:55:39 -0500
On Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 05:25:55PM -0500, Brian Moore wrote:
> Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET> said:
> > ... I'm personally
> > sick of the spirits conjured by my PCs squashing my bad guys. Since the
> > characters in my game are extremely experienced (we've been playing with
> > the same characters for over 3 years) the mages yawn after summoning force
> > 10 elementals. A dozen or more force 10-14 elementals can dust quite a few
> > bad guys.
>
> They yawn after spending 10K nuyen per elemental? How many services
> are they getting from these elementals? IMHO, a very experienced mage
> might conjure with 9 skill, and maybe a Force 6 spirit focus. That's
> 15 dice (a LOT!), for average 1 service (meaning 1 combat). Ignore
> Centering since you probably won't roll 2 successes with a Centering
> skill (assuming 6 or so). Granted experienced runners demand and
> deserve top nuyen, they need to make a LOT to be able spend 100K nuyen
> per fight on elementals. OK, I'd probably give them a bulk discount
> on conjuring materials if they went through that much, but that's
> still a lot of nuyen.
>
> How do other GMs handle controlling many elementals? The rules say
> that elementals on call use 1 service per day, but they aren't that
> clear on whether or not a summoned elemental is always considered to
> be on call. One interpretation is that an elemental is only on call
> when specifically commanded by its conjurer, so a mage could conjure an
> infinite number of elementals "just in case". Another interpretation
> is that elementals are always on call, so they use one service per
> day even if just sitting around. If you use this interpretation or
> pick some middle ground, you might be able to limit elemental abuse.
>
I usually don't count the service per day. But my players haven't
abused it yet. If they have four elementals, my oppponents will have
five. The ritual materials may triple in price (low suppy, high demand)
As a GM be creative. YOu control every aspect of the world.
The number in the book are base, but prices fluctuate day to day, and
you can use that for alot of control.
Heck, finding the ritual material, may be a run in and of itself.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:29:10 EST
In a message dated 97-12-22 15:58:07 EST, TalonMail@***.COM writes:

>
> Under this system, you've got two options for melee combat with a spirit:
> normal melee, using all of the regular rules, but the spirit has (Force x
2)
> hardened armor. So you can use a monowhip against the spirit, but its armor
> is going to reduce the Power, and a Force 5+ spirit is invulnerable to it.
> Or
> you can engage the spirit in "spirit combat," doing (Charisma)M
(regardless
> of weapon), but ignoring the spirit's armor. Against powerful spirits, it
> may
> be a mundane's only option....
>
> Thoughts?
>
Yes of course....what "skill" is going to utilized? A person with a "Armed
Combat (Whips)" using the Monofilamant Whip that is described above is really
trying to use what comes most naturally to him. Does the "Mental Attribute"
also become the "Combat Skill", and if so, why aren't there (or are there and
they haven't been approached?) Skill Web Modifiers?

-K
Message no. 35
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirit Combat
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:13:30 +0100
At 22-Dez-97 wrote Steve Kenson:



>The other option I've consider is this: allow a mundane willing to engage a
>material spirit in melee combat to fight the spirit using his Mental stats
>(ala astral combat). In other words, the mundane attacker uses normal combat
>skill, with Charisma in place of Strength, doing (Charisma)M damage,
>regardless of what weapon the mundo is armed with (the weapon is nothing more
>than a symbol, it's real damage is irrelevant). I say Charisma because it's
>consistent with how regular astral combat works (and consistency is a goal of
>SR3). The upside is the spirit gets NO armor against the attack. In effect,
>the mundane is engaging the spirit in a kind of "astral combat" using the
>focused power of the mundane's strength of character.

Please make clear wich Charisma rating should be use, some people will add
their Pheromons to it just to be better at it. :)
I would rule natural charisma,, perhaps with charisma(attrib+) spell.
But that should be all. IMHO

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
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Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
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