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Message no. 1
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:38:25 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>Alternatively, use the Accident power of a nature spirit to cause a mishap
>in the turbine.

A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you summon inside a
plane? Its not open to the sky, so no sky spirits but people only spend a
few hours a day inside at a time, which is hardly inhabiting it, so no
hearth spirits. And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit lives in
automated factorys?

Phil

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Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:11:30 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 12:38 on 7 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you summon inside a
> plane? Its not open to the sky, so no sky spirits but people only spend a
> few hours a day inside at a time, which is hardly inhabiting it, so no
> hearth spirits.

I'd say sky spirits, for the same reason you can summon a city spirit
inside a car: the plane is inside the sky domain.

> And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit lives in automated
> factorys?

This would be a city spirit, IMO. It's not inhabited so it doesn't have a
hearth spirit, but it is in the city (or at least part of a built-up
area).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:14:06 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:11:30 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to Phil Smith, at 12:38 on 7 Oct 00, the word on the street
>
> was...
>
> > A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you
> summon inside a
> > plane?
> I'd say sky spirits, for the same reason you can summon a city
> spirit
> inside a car: the plane is inside the sky domain.
>

I'd agree.

> > And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit lives in automated
> > factorys?
>
> This would be a city spirit, IMO. It's not inhabited so it doesn't
> have a
> hearth spirit, but it is in the city (or at least part of a built-up
>
> area).
>

btb, I think it's still a hearth spirit, since I think stores and such
are included, but it's a GM call.
This is one reason (if I'm playing a shaman) I ask the GM to use my
Spirits of Man; City is renamed Streets (since it helps me think of it in
that regard, streets, alleys, parking lots, etc.) Hearth is split into
"Home" and "Shoppe" (yeah, I use the "e" for the fun of it
:-) Field is
combined with Prairie, but I add "Battlefield" which
encompasses...battlefields.. :-) (the last mainly for my Badb/Crow
shaman)

I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards, Battlefields,
morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name, so...

Any ideas? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 4
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:34:53 -0400
>A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you summon inside
a
>plane? Its not open to the sky, so no sky spirits but people only spend a
>few hours a day inside at a time, which is hardly inhabiting it, so no
>hearth spirits. And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit lives in
>automated factorys?

I use a house rule I snatched from somewhere (with my gratitude if
he/she happens to be on the list). It basically states in the case of a
disputed area the caster can choose. Thus in a driveway you might summon a
hearth or city spirit. On a windblown peak you could summon a sky or
mountain spirit. Bascially if a case could reasonalbly be made for a type of
spirit to be there, I'll consider letting it be summoned.
Message no. 5
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:11:13 -0500
From: "Wagemage" <wagemage@**.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)


> >A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you summon
inside
> a
> >plane? Its not open to the sky, so no sky spirits but people only spend
a
> >few hours a day inside at a time, which is hardly inhabiting it, so no
> >hearth spirits. And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit lives in
> >automated factorys?
>
> I use a house rule I snatched from somewhere (with my gratitude if
> he/she happens to be on the list). It basically states in the case of a
> disputed area the caster can choose. Thus in a driveway you might summon a
> hearth or city spirit. On a windblown peak you could summon a sky or
> mountain spirit. Bascially if a case could reasonalbly be made for a type
of
> spirit to be there, I'll consider letting it be summoned.

Just for clarification, the latter portion of this is NOT a house rule, but
a standard rule regarding Nature Spirits (Not Spirits of Man). If you are
on a Forested Mountain Side, you can call upon Mountain, Forest, All Spirits
of the Sky and depending upon what else may be in the environmental
vicinity, perhaps even a River (Spring) or Lake spirit as well (if said
waterways are in the immediate vicinity of the conjuring shaman.

The trick about the Shaman in a driveway would be arguable. Let me give
some examples.

*IN* the driveway itself, is most likely City Spirit, IF the property is
part of a greater city domain. Additionally, the shaman (if able to by
totemic availabilities/restrictions) should be able to call upon Spirits of
the Sky of the appropriate types (Storm spirits are the tricky ones).

*IN* the covered/protected portion of the driveway is most likely Hearth
Spirit domain, unless the garage is a parking garage that is part of a
larger area. In either case, the shaman is not going to be able to call
upon most, if any, Spirits of the Skies.

Additional notes:

*ON* a street in front of a property is most likely City spirits if the
street is part of a larger community.

*ON* a road that is surrounded by fields (such as in much of the american
midwest and related farming/agricultural territories) is likely to actually
be Field Spirits. The possibilities of Prairie/Plains and Forest spirits of
course also exist.

*ON* a highway is also most likely as subjectable to the surrounding domain
types. Interstates and heavily trafficked roadways might be argued as being
City spirits after a fashion, regardless of the surrounding environment.

*ON* a street that moves through a larger city, county, state or national
park is likely to be Forest, Field or perhaps even Prairie/Plains spirit
turf, depending on the prevailing conditions of the park itself.

*ON* a bridge that is over a body of water is subject to also being able to
call upon spirits of the appropriate water type (River, Lake, Sea, Swamp).
This also holds true for a pier or boat dock. Some larger piers would also
have the option of calling upon Hearth, City and other even more varied
environments.

Possible Additions

In a territory that is undergoing a state of transition from one domain
category to another, Background Count is likely to be fluxual *AND* hostile
to shamanic magic. Converting an acre of forest into an acre of farmland
for instance is likely to generate a +1 (or even higher if the land has
particular energies aligned to it) Background Count to all shamanic (and
probably other types as well) magic that occurs within its boundary. The
energies will likely only subside after some amount of time (we usually say
one complete lunar cycle) after the time of transitiion has been completed).

One must also remember that regions of extreme transitory state, such as
those places undergoing dramatic climactic or environmental change (impeding
glacial flows, forest fires, vulcanist expression (volcano, geysers) and
other forms of tectonic or geomagnetic shift) will cause the exact
boundaries of a spiritual domain to shift or alter unexplainably or
surprisingly to a shaman who is not paying close attention to their
surrounding environment.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:54:16 +0200
According to vocenoctum@****.com, at 20:14 on 7 Oct 00, the word on the
street was...

> btb, I think it's still a hearth spirit, since I think stores and such
> are included, but it's a GM call.

Phil asked about an _automated_ factory, which I took to mean one where
nobody is around to check on the machines unless they are in need of
maintenance. In a normal factory, I too would say a hearth spirit, as I
tend to "assign" those to any building that's been occupied for any length
of time. It is a bit of a gray area, though.

> This is one reason (if I'm playing a shaman) I ask the GM to use my
> Spirits of Man; City is renamed Streets (since it helps me think of it in
> that regard, streets, alleys, parking lots, etc.)

I take it part of the summoning process is to play, sing or hum part of a
certain Radiohead song? ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 09:27:05 GMT
>From: vocenoctum@****.com
>This is one reason (if I'm playing a shaman) I ask the GM to use my
>Spirits of Man; City is renamed Streets (since it helps me think of it in
>that regard, streets, alleys, parking lots, etc.) Hearth is split into
>"Home" and "Shoppe" (yeah, I use the "e" for the fun of
it :-) Field is
>combined with Prairie, but I add "Battlefield" which
>encompasses...battlefields.. :-) (the last mainly for my Badb/Crow
>shaman)
>
>I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards, Battlefields,
>morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name, so...
>
>Any ideas? :-)

I would put that down as the realm of ghosts or city spirits who want to
like The Smiths :)>

I don't have the book but isn't there a graveyeard spirit in the Eye Witness
adventure? I played through it as a PC so I don't know if that was the
book's idea or my GM's. Failing that, have you come up with rules for them?
I would give them the same powers as city spirits, possibly dropping Guard
in favour of Alienation (which seems bizarrely missing from Critters).

Phil

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Message no. 8
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 08:44:57 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

> Phil asked about an _automated_ factory, which I took to mean one where
> nobody is around to check on the machines unless they are in need of
> maintenance. In a normal factory, I too would say a hearth spirit, as I
> tend to "assign" those to any building that's been occupied for any length
> of time. It is a bit of a gray area, though.

OK, here's got a question. What areas would you GM's rule that a shaman
would be unable to summon a spirit in? (Besides space that is ;) I've
always figured that there would be at least a few areas that a shaman would
be unable to summon any spirit at all.

Just a thought

Jalong1
Message no. 9
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:15:20 GMT
>From: "Jeff Long" <jalong8@****.com>
>OK, here's got a question. What areas would you GM's rule that a shaman
>would be unable to summon a spirit in? (Besides space that is ;) I've
>always figured that there would be at least a few areas that a shaman would
>be unable to summon any spirit at all.

There are areas where the background count is too high and spirits will not
want to appear; which is something to consider with the Graveyard and
Battlefield spirits we were discussing before. When the background gest
high enough you have a manawarp which spirits can't inhabit for the same
reason they can't inhabit space. Apart from that there is nowhere shamen
can't summon nature spirits.

No, wait, I just thought of one; underground caves without any natural water
sources in them.

In my world there exists;
http://udel.edu/stu-org/galadrim/srii/magick/natspirits.htm
Well, the first one at least.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 10
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 13:44:17 GMT
>
> There are areas where the background count is too high and spirits will not
> want to appear; which is something to consider with the Graveyard and
> Battlefield spirits we were discussing before. When the background gest
> high enough you have a manawarp which spirits can't inhabit for the same
> reason they can't inhabit space. Apart from that there is nowhere shamen
> can't summon nature spirits.
>
> No, wait, I just thought of one; underground caves without any natural water
> sources in them.

Shamanic tradition (or what I've heard about it) says everything
has a spirit that can be contacted. So there's no place in Earth where a
shaman cannot summon a spirit. If he's in a cave, he will summon the
spirit of that cave, if he is in a forest, the spirit of that forest,
etc. In the case of the cave, you might use the same stats as those of
a mountain spirit, for example, but the entities themselves can't be put
into neat categories.

I agree with NeoJudas about roads; the spirit summoned should
"belong" to the enviroment sorrounding the road.

Unless, of course, the road itself is famous, one that got a
reputation of it's own. I believe Route 66 would fit in this :).



Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
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ICQ#4055455
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:32:32 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 9:27 on 8 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> I would give them the same powers as city spirits, possibly dropping Guard
> in favour of Alienation (which seems bizarrely missing from Critters).

Alienation was probably judged too powerful and confusing (to the players,
not the characters :) for the SR3 overhaul. Many times someone on the list
asked about its exact effects, because the way it's written in the SRII
rules it appears to be a much more powerful version of Concealment with a
minor side-effect, and (depending on how you read the text) it also makes
you intangible...

Once you know the idea behind the power, it's easy enough to handle in the
game, but for GMs who don't (and/or have rule-abusing players) Alienation
could be a real pain.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:23:27 -0400
On Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:54:16 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to vocenoctum@****.com, at 20:14 on 7 Oct 00, the word on
> the
> street was...
>
> > btb, I think it's still a hearth spirit, since I think stores and
> such
> > are included, but it's a GM call.
>
> Phil asked about an _automated_ factory, which I took to mean one
> where
> nobody is around to check on the machines unless they are in need of
>
> maintenance. In a normal factory, I too would say a hearth spirit,
> as I
> tend to "assign" those to any building that's been occupied for any
> length
> of time. It is a bit of a gray area, though.
>

See, I think of city spirits has the streets, alleys, etc. (why I named
them Street spirits) so I don't consider it City, it's not a field :-)
that only leaves Hearth by the book IMO.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 13
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:38:21 -0400
On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 13:44:17 GMT Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br> writes:
?Shamanic tradition (or what I've heard about it) says
> everything
> has a spirit that can be contacted. So there's no place in Earth
> where a
> shaman cannot summon a spirit. If he's in a cave, he will summon the
> spirit of that cave, if he is in a forest, the spirit of that
> forest,
> etc. In the case of the cave, you might use the same stats as those
> of
> a mountain spirit, for example, but the entities themselves can't be
> put
> into neat categories.
>

I'd call it a mountain spirit myself, but I agree that teh definetions
aren't exclusive. if it's a worked mine, I might call it Hearth (Shoppe)
or maybe even field.


> I agree with NeoJudas about roads; the spirit summoned
> should
> "belong" to the enviroment sorrounding the road.
>
> Unless, of course, the road itself is famous, one that got a
> reputation of it's own. I believe Route 66 would fit in this :).

I tend to assign Spirits of Man to anything man made. If it's a small
dirt road, it might be Prarie or Field, but if it's large, or if it's
paved, I call it City/Street spirit.
As I said though, that's why I renamed them Street Spirits, because I
don't like hte idea of a City spirit being everything in the city, with
large "patches" in it's domain where other domains lie. Instead, I see it
like a spiders web of streets crisscrossing through the area. I can
"believe" a domain which wraps around other domains, but not a domain
which has large hole's in it.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 14
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:32:13 -0400
On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 09:27:05 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> >I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards, Battlefields,
> >morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name, so...
> >
> >Any ideas? :-)
>
> I would put that down as the realm of ghosts or city spirits who
> want to
> like The Smiths :)>
>

Well, ghost's aren't really something the shaman can summon. If having to
place it in the "conventional" spirits, I'd say either hearth or field,
depending on structures. Kenson had on his site, stats for the Totem
"Badb" and the domain is "fields/battlefields" or something, but the
regular rules don't really make any difference between a field of corn
and a field of graves....

> I don't have the book but isn't there a graveyeard spirit in the Eye
> Witness
> adventure? I played through it as a PC so I don't know if that was
> the
> book's idea or my GM's.

A free spirit actually, yes.

> Failing that, have you come up with rules
> for them?
> I would give them the same powers as city spirits, possibly
> dropping Guard
> in favour of Alienation (which seems bizarrely missing from
> Critters).
>

Alienation is gone from what I gather.
I assigned the spirits of the Battlefield;
Accident, confusion, guard, fear, materialization

I was also thinking of having the broader "spirit of dead places" replace
an "inhabit" power for great forms instead of prophecy. This would give
my version of necromancers the ability to create zombies.
I just need a name for them :-)
All my rules are on my site, under hte magic section, Necromancy.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 15
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:33:11 -0400
On Sun, 8 Oct 2000 08:44:57 -0500 "Jeff Long" <jalong8@****.com> writes:
> OK, here's got a question. What areas would you GM's rule that a
> shaman
> would be unable to summon a spirit in? (Besides space that is ;)
> I've
> always figured that there would be at least a few areas that a
> shaman would
> be unable to summon any spirit at all.
>

I'd allow a shaman to conjure anywhere that's not toxic. If tyhe
background count is high, then it's harder, but it's not banned.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 16
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:30:10 -0500
On Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:38:25 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> A thought just struck me; what kind of nature spirit can you summon
> inside a
> plane? Its not open to the sky, so no sky spirits but people only
> spend a
> few hours a day inside at a time, which is hardly inhabiting it, so
> no
> hearth spirits.

I'd say Sky (appears outside of the plane) or Hearth (inside).

> And for that matter, what kind of nature spirit
> lives in
> automated factorys?

City spirits, possibly toxic. Could be toxic Hearth as well.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 17
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:34:56 -0500
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:14:06 -0400 vocenoctum@****.com writes:
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:11:30 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> This is one reason (if I'm playing a shaman) I ask the GM to use my
> Spirits of Man;
<SNIP>
> I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards, Battlefields,
> morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name, so...

Spirits of Death? Or is that too obvious? ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:14:06 -0400 vocenoctum@****.com writes:<BR>&gt;
On
Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:11:30 +0200 "Gurth" &lt;gurth@******.nl&gt;
writes:<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; This is one reason (if I'm playing a shaman) I ask the GM to use
my<BR>&gt; Spirits of Man;</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards,
Battlefields,<BR>&gt; morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name,
so...<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Spirits of Death? Or is that too obvious? ;)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--<BR>D. Ghost<BR>Profanity is the one language all
programmers know
best<BR>- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.<BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_7fd9.3fd4.67c8--

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Message no. 18
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:16:58 -0400
On Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:34:56 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
writes:
> > I wanted to change Battlefield to include Graveyards,
> Battlefields,
> > morgues, etc., but can't think of a catchy name, so...
>
> Spirits of Death? Or is that too obvious? ;)

"Death" isn't really a domain though, so it doesn't seem right. "places
of death" maybe, but then you'd have "places of death" domains, and
spirits of places of death...doesn't ring right..
<shrug>


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 19
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Spirit domains (was Re: Misc Questions)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:43:55 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/2000 6:19:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
vocenoctum@****.com writes:

> "Death" isn't really a domain though, so it doesn't seem right.
"places
> of death" maybe, but then you'd have "places of death" domains, and
> spirits of places of death...doesn't ring right..
> <shrug>

What about "Limbo"? Where the dead go to wait between here and the afterlife
when they can't accept that they've died. Spirits of Limbo...sure it sounds
like a rasta band, but Spirits of Death sounds like an inner-city gang too!
LoL!

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Thwap!