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Message no. 1
From: Egil Geir Brautaset <egilbra@***.UNIT.NO>
Subject: Spirits
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:53:19 +0100
Does nature spirits have effective physical attacks?

Egil
Message no. 2
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:32:16 +0000
In reply to Egil Geir Brautaset .....

> Does nature spirits have effective physical attacks?

Yes. They roll reaction (not initiative mind) for their skill and do damage
according to the particular spirit. See the critters section in the manual.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 3
From: Egil Geir Brautaset <egilbra@***.UNIT.NO>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 19:17:03 +0100
On Tue, 15 Feb 1994, The Powerhouse wrote:

> In reply to Egil Geir Brautaset .....
>
> > Does nature spirits have effective physical attacks?
>
> Yes. They roll reaction (not initiative mind) for their skill and do damage
> according to the particular spirit. See the critters section in the manual.
>
> Phill.
> --
> Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
> Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness
!
> University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
> Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse

Let me elaborate a little on my question to make it clearer;

There is no listed damage codes under attacks for nature spirits
in the critter section of my black book. I have therefore
assumed that the nature spirits does not manifest in any kind
of physical form. Much like watchers or astrally projecting magicians.

However, elementals does have physical manifestations and can
do physical damage, and some places there are references to
nature spirits manifesting as physical creatures. This was why
I was wondering if maybe nature spirits could do (force)L Stun
damage or something like that.

And by the way, can you use movement powers on vehicles?

Egil
Message no. 4
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 18:12:31 -0800
Egil asked:

>>Does nature spirits have effective physical attacks?

That answer is two part:
1) Yes, nature spirits have physical attacks
2) No, they are not effective

===============================================================================
See Ya in Shadows, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."
Jason J Carter -- Deep Throat, The X-Files
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 5
From: Marcel Emami <rab@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: spirits
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 12:25:56 MSZ
HI
i have a quesion rising yesterday while we played. The NPC- shaman
conjured a CitySpirit to attack the players.
I looked in the tabel on critter (~230) to see what stats it has.
What I found was that it can't manifest. Ok the problem is in the magic
section of SR (~120) it said the spirit must manifest to use it's powers
aggainst mundanes. So how can any spirit (not elemental) use any of his
powers like fear, allienation gurad, movement. And why is the appierence
in the description (..hearth spirit do manifest as small old people.. (some
thing like that )).
I solved it so that spirit cannot manifest but can use their powers without
manifestation, but I'm not sure if i leave it this way.
Is there any official FASA opinion to this topic or what are your house
rules for this

PS I'm reffering to SR2 and I don't have the book with me so the quotes and
the page numbers may be slighty differnt.


Rab
GM/GO -d+(---) -P+(---) c+(+++) l u e+ m+ s /- n+ h+ f+ g++ w+ t-- r++ y++

rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
Message no. 6
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:55:57 -0400
On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Marcel Emami wrote:
......magic
> section of SR (~120) it said the spirit must manifest to use it's powers
> aggainst mundanes. So how can any spirit (not elemental) use any of his
> powers like fear, allienation gurad, movement. And why is the appierence
> in the description (..hearth spirit do manifest as small old people.. (some
> thing like that )).......

Here is the deal..If you look at the discription of the spirits you will
find that ALL of them give some sort of discription reguarding its
manifest form..FA$A has this little problem..They SCREW UP EVERY SINGLE
PRODUCT THEY PUT OUT!!! Sorry about that..FA$A should has put in
Manifestation for ALL of the spirits but oh well..There are several
errata sheets available I think I have one or 2 online If you want it/them...
So in the future it would [in the interest of game balance IMHO] be a
better solution to simply give the Spirits the power of Manifestation...
Hope this helps...
--------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: spirits - Reply
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 19:24:27 +0200
(Concerning manifestation and city spirits)

I always thought they could manifest...maybe I'm wrong, but why does it
say that it's appearence "varies widely" in the description on page 228?
They manifest as small pieces of litter or garbage, not as a humanoid
shape.

But I have a question about nature spirits as well: On page 228 it says
that the Desert Spirit has Attack power. Then what is it's Damage Code,
because I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Message no. 8
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 16:07:41 -0700
On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Marcel Emami wrote:

> HI
> i have a quesion rising yesterday while we played. The NPC- shaman
> conjured a CitySpirit to attack the players.
> I looked in the tabel on critter (~230) to see what stats it has.

Well, I looked on SRII, pg. 228, R column, City Spirits, under Appearance,
and it gave several forms that they manifest in. No mention of them not
being able to manifest in my Hardback.

> What I found was that it can't manifest. Ok the problem is in the magic
> section of SR (~120) it said the spirit must manifest to use it's powers
> aggainst mundanes. So how can any spirit (not elemental) use any of his
> powers like fear, allienation gurad, movement. And why is the appierence
> in the description (..hearth spirit do manifest as small old people.. (some

If you were looking for the
"manifestation" power under the Powers section, they don't need that to
manifest when they're summoned. That power is only needed so a spirit
can manifest at will (Like, when 'it' wants to, not when a shaman summons
it).

> thing like that )).
> I solved it so that spirit cannot manifest but can use their powers without
> manifestation, but I'm not sure if i leave it this way.
> Is there any official FASA opinion to this topic or what are your house
> rules for this
>
> PS I'm reffering to SR2 and I don't have the book with me so the quotes and
> the page numbers may be slighty differnt.
>
>
> Rab
> GM/GO -d+(---) -P+(---) c+(+++) l u e+ m+ s /- n+ h+ f+ g++ w+ t-- r++ y++
>
> rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
>
Ivy
Message no. 9
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: spirits - Reply
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 16:22:50 -0700
On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Gurth wrote:

> (Concerning manifestation and city spirits)
>
> I always thought they could manifest...maybe I'm wrong, but why does it
> say that it's appearence "varies widely" in the description on page 228?
> They manifest as small pieces of litter or garbage, not as a humanoid
> shape.
>
> But I have a question about nature spirits as well: On page 228 it says
> that the Desert Spirit has Attack power. Then what is it's Damage Code,
> because I can't seem to find it anywhere.
>
It doesn't have an attack. According to the Errata, available with a
letter and a SASE to FASA, the "attack" power should be "Guard" power.

Ivy
Message no. 10
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: spirits - Reply
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 22:59:18 -0700
Gurth asked:

>But I have a question about nature spirits as well: On page 228 it says
>that the Desert Spirit has Attack power. Then what is it's Damage Code,
>because I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I checked and guess what? There is no Attack power. Also, the charts on
page 144 and page 235 don't have the power listed. Lastly, the Desert Spirit
is the only nature spirit that doesn't have the Accident power.

I think that FASA screwed up on the charts and had a typo in the description.
I would ignore the "Attack" power and give them Accident.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 11
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 12:27:13 +1000
J writes:

> I disagree with the previous statement that the +2 charisma bonus from
> tailored pheremones (sp?) will not allow a magician to bond 2 more spirits.
> Though the description for the pheremones doesn't say that it allows it, it
> doesn't say that it does _not_ allow it.

Actually, I think somewhere it says that _no_ cyber effects magical
activities, _unless_ it _specifically_ says so in the description. About the
only example I could think of is the cerebal (sp?) booster, which increases
Int, and gives the corresponding increase in Astral Quickness too.

> P.S. Having a lot of elementals or spirits hanging around is _not_ a
> good idea in the first place.

Well, unless you are using your elementals for something, then don't the
piss off to somewhere humans can't go? 'Cause having an elemental "on
standby" on the astral just near you uses up a service after 24 hrs.
Therefore I assumed that unless you have to summon lots of elematals really
often ('cause they use up a service every 24hrs they do nothing), then they
went off someplace and waited, not costing services.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+) !tv(--)@ b++ D+ B?
e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 12
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Spirits
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:14:39 +0000
The reason I asked if spirits can attack physicaly is if they can't doesn't
it mean that toxic spirits can't attack either? If this is so the a toxic spirt
is nout more than a really pissed off nature spirit who will use
accident or something on you.

For sake of game balance <duh whazat?> I think spirits shouldn't be able to
attack physicaly I mean they take no time to conjour while elementals take ages
And spirits don't cost several thousand a go!

Stuart aka Cinder
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 13:30:28 +0930
>
> The reason I asked if spirits can attack physicaly is if they can't doesn't
> it mean that toxic spirits can't attack either? If this is so the a
> toxic spirt is nout more than a really pissed off nature spirit who will use
> accident or something on you.
>
> For sake of game balance <duh whazat?> I think spirits shouldn't be able to
> attack physicaly I mean they take no time to conjour while elementals
> take ages. And spirits don't cost several thousand a go!
>

Spirits of Man are easy to dodge... just run across the street into the
park, or duck into a building. Unless they're Greater Form, of course.

Also: remember that a mage can sic you with more than one elemental, and he
isn't drained out trying to summon tough guys when he gets around to
sending them to kill you. So he could be slamming you with spells as well.
Whereas the shaman can either raise weak spirits one at a time (only one
spirit per domain, remember) and wear you down, or summon a BIG spirit and
be too exhausted to help it out.

All in all, unless the spirits CAN attack, in some way or another, a Mana
Ball is going to be a lot more effective, with a lot more drain.

(Like I said in a previous post, I use damages from 1st Ed. I can post
those if enough people want them. Alternatively, use Unarmed Combat damage
(maybe let them pick up a club or something))

As for Toxic Spirits... they have Attacks listed. Just convert them.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 14
From: SCN User <bd042@***.ORG>
Subject: Spirits
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 13:34:51 -0700
It would be Karma-intensive, but there's no reason your aly couldn't
be an exact duplicate of yourself, with all skills, appearances, etc.
it just wouldn't be able to conjure.
BTW, can spirits deck at all?
I seem to remember Roxey's Max posting here once or twice.

And with multiple allies, you could get multiple copies of yourself!
Major Munchkinoids, Batman!

Who says Mages are the only powergamers? You can heap quite a bit
of obscenityware on one guy and munch-out without a shred of magic.
Message no. 15
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:47:27 +1000
SCN User writes:

> It would be Karma-intensive, but there's no reason your aly couldn't be an
> exact duplicate of yourself, with all skills, appearances, etc. it just
> wouldn't be able to conjure.

Yeah, I spose so. Just the thing for that magician with the ego problem -
two of him! Would be quite humerous I think...

> BTW, can spirits deck at all?

I'd be very doubtful. Odds are that the manifested form of a spirit does not
have the same neural processes as a (meta)human (if it has neural proccesses
resembling any creatures at all), so how do you connect the datajack?
Besides, when the thing un-manifests, where does the 'jack go?

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:43:32 +0200
>It would be Karma-intensive, but there's no reason your aly couldn't
>be an exact duplicate of yourself, with all skills, appearances, etc.
>it just wouldn't be able to conjure.

That would be useful in some situations. Just give the ally an extra form
that happens to be the duplicate of yourself and send him/her into a
potentially dangerous situation...

>BTW, can spirits deck at all?

Don't think so. Magicians have trouble with it (add Magic rating or Sorcery
skill to all TNs :), and since spirits can't get a datajack AFAIK, they
would be reduced to tortoises. As those, I say they could deck if they had
the right skills.

>I seem to remember Roxey's Max posting here once or twice.

Who?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
he's not trying to catch your eye; he's just trying to get a life
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 17
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:05:00 PDT
>> BTW, can spirits deck at all?

>I'd be very doubtful. Odds are that the manifested form of a spirit does
not
>have the same neural processes as a (meta)human (if it has neural
proccesses
>resembling any creatures at all), so how do you connect the datajack?
>Besides, when the thing un-manifests, where does the 'jack go?

According to some of the rumours there have been some phantoms or spirits in
the matrix. Why not? Some decker from the crash could have their spirit
floating around in their somewhere.

Their stats would be something like this


Bod=Force+spirit energy
Eva=Force+spirit egergy
Sen=Force+spirit energy
Mas=Force+spirit energy

hardening=force
hacking pool= force x2

initiative=6+force+spirit energy 2d6 because of familiarity and the speed
of the
matrix without any nueral interface. +1d6 = to pure cybernetic
decking.
reaction=Force+spirit energy

attack=force
analize=force
browse=force

any others appropriate=force
Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:12:00 -0400
>>>>> "St" == St Jean, Ricky
<stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA> writes:

St> According to some of the rumours there have been some phantoms or
St> spirits in the matrix. Why not? Some decker from the crash could have
St> their spirit floating around in their somewhere.

Not quite. Those rumors of ``Matrix Shamans'' is something of a misnomer.
Every hear the term ``computer wizard''? There's no magic involved. Same
thing; the Matrix Shamans are just really good in the Matrix. More likely
they can run the Matrix without a cyberdeck (note the distinct lack of
program carriers in the SR2 rulebook).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 19
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 16:51:22 -0700
Not quite. Those rumors of ``Matrix Shamans'' is something of a misnomer.
Every hear the term ``computer wizard''? There's no magic involved. Same
thing; the Matrix Shamans are just really good in the Matrix. More likely
they can run the Matrix without a cyberdeck (note the distinct lack of
program carriers in the SR2 rulebook).

In the denver source book where all of this is mentioned, the folks just use a
modified Data-jack with a special sim-sense interface.

It also mentions that the program carrier fad passed on because of the Cellular
damage the things caused.


Nightfox
Message no. 20
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:26:21 +1000
St. Jean, Ricky writes:

> According to some of the rumours there have been some phantoms or spirits in
> the matrix. Why not? Some decker from the crash could have their spirit
> floating around in their somewhere.

Ghosts in the matrix, are, BTB (thats By The Book for those of you
unfamiliar with Ivy :-)), non-existant - they are merely decker legends and
fables. OTOH, many GMs have such things in their own games, so it is up to
you.

And, it is possible to look at them many ways. As "lost" deckers, with
decker stats. As rougue AI's (the more likely possibility) with ICE like
stats. Or as true spirits, with spirit like stats.

Myself I'd not have "lost" deckers (an illogical and unfounded reasoning for
ghosts in the matrix), nor spirits (magic & tech again, they just don't
mix). But, if you want them, then go for it.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:42:07 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "St" == St Jean, Ricky
<stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA> writes:
>
> St> According to some of the rumours there have been some phantoms or
> St> spirits in the matrix. Why not? Some decker from the crash could have
> St> their spirit floating around in their somewhere.
>
> Not quite. Those rumors of ``Matrix Shamans'' is something of a misnomer.
> Every hear the term ``computer wizard''? There's no magic involved. Same
> thing; the Matrix Shamans are just really good in the Matrix. More likely
> they can run the Matrix without a cyberdeck (note the distinct lack of
> program carriers in the SR2 rulebook).

That's no mystery... they got phased out with the advent of cranial
cyberdecks.

Actually, if you want to look into this, it's in Denver Sourcebook... the
section on the Denver Data Haven.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:48:48 +0930
NIGHTFOX wrote:
>
> Not quite. Those rumors of ``Matrix Shamans'' is something of a misnomer.
> Every hear the term ``computer wizard''? There's no magic involved. Same
> thing; the Matrix Shamans are just really good in the Matrix. More likely
> they can run the Matrix without a cyberdeck (note the distinct lack of
> program carriers in the SR2 rulebook).
>
> In the denver source book where all of this is mentioned, the folks just use a
> modified Data-jack with a special sim-sense interface.

Yah, but they say that they are in touch with Matrix Totems, and that they
work magic in the Matrix (so what if they still use tech to get in it?).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 23
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:18:41 -0700
>Yah, but they say that they are in touch with Matrix Totems, and that they
>work magic in the Matrix (so what if they still use tech to get in it?).

yeah - but there's always Tom Dowds comment on this after came out stating the
fact that "Yes, they said it, no its not true, no magic and matrix still"


Nightfox
Message no. 24
From: Mike Ruane <Nethicus@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:20:54 -0400
That's it! I have gotten just frustrated to the point of exploding and I
don't want to wait until VR-2 comes out for me to spend more money on it. I
want to write my own damn matrix system and use that. I'm sure any monkey
with a squeezebox, four boxes of Kleenex, a pen and two four-sided dice can
come up with a better matrix combat & matrix running system.

Sorry, all. I just had to vent my frustration.

Mike, TGC
Message no. 25
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Spirits
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:16:35 +0000
On Apr 11, 8:20pm, Mike Ruane wrote:
> Subject: Re: Spirits
> That's it! I have gotten just frustrated to the point of exploding and I
> don't want to wait until VR-2 comes out for me to spend more money on it. I
> want to write my own damn matrix system and use that. I'm sure any monkey
> with a squeezebox, four boxes of Kleenex, a pen and two four-sided dice can
> come up with a better matrix combat & matrix running system.
>
> Sorry, all. I just had to vent my frustration.
>
> Mike, TGC

At least, take in account the rules printed at the end of Divided Assets. That
is the closest thing we have now to VR2 :)

And don't try to be too realistic. Even with the tech slowdown, the '29 crash
and the awakening, computer tech is going to advance more than other fields of
technology. (nanotechnology anyone? and no, i'm not talking about nanites that
dikote bones :)

Bye, Paolo

--
________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci ICBM: 45:38:12N 13:46:36E 95h
e-mail: marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
www: http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
"Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" - Gareth Owen :)
Message no. 26
From: dion.scher@*******.co.za (DION SCHER)
Subject: spirits
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 13:12:00 +0200
In a recent session a shaman in my group decided to use a spirit of
man to attack an enemy. When it came time to deal damage we all
realised that the book does not handle spirits dealing damage.
However a manifest spirit DOES exist on the physical plane and
therefore it should be able to deal damage.

I made a on -the-fly decision that since it was a spirit of Man, it
would deal damage equal to a human dealing damage.

I'd like to know if anyone knows of how a spirit deals damage , if
at all and why an elemental can deal damage, if a spirit can't.

What's the story on this?
---
* SPEED 2.00 [NR] * Gee officer, I just wondered how fast SPEED READ was.
Message no. 27
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:42:07 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, DION SCHER wrote:

>
> In a recent session a shaman in my group decided to use a spirit of
> man to attack an enemy. When it came time to deal damage we all
> realised that the book does not handle spirits dealing damage.
> However a manifest spirit DOES exist on the physical plane and
> therefore it should be able to deal damage.
>
> I made a on -the-fly decision that since it was a spirit of Man, it
> would deal damage equal to a human dealing damage.
>
> I'd like to know if anyone knows of how a spirit deals damage , if
> at all and why an elemental can deal damage, if a spirit can't.
>
> What's the story on this?
>
>
I allow them to attack the same as their 'equivalent' elemental type. I
treat Spirits of Man as doing the same damage as Fire Elementals, but not
ranged. (If you think this is extreme, see what the spirit of man did to
the Wendigo in the 'Sam Verner' series.)


Ray.
Message no. 28
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:09:54 -0500 (CDT)
I use the same system as ray, except I'd decided that City spirit ranged
attacks were an option (they throw garbage, of course). Otherwise, you'd
use the elemental spirit whose attributes matched (exactly) to the
shamanic spirit

fire:man
water:water
air:sky
earth:ummmm, land? mental block!

That way, you don't have to make up any mechanics, everything is right
there in the book.
Message no. 29
From: dion.scher@*******.co.za (DION SCHER)
Subject: spirits
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 21:48:00 +0200
I have a question regarding the spirit power Fear.
A sufficiently powerful spirit, say 5-6, is not hard to summon and I
have realised can do considerable "damage" to a GM's run if abused.
A shaman could quite happily ask the spirit to scare any conflict
encountered away using its fear power.

Other than the player being a good Rp'er and playing a shaman with
respect for spirits, is there anything/ideas that would discourage
such use of spirits repetitively?
---
* SPEED 2.00 [NR] * Gee officer, I just wondered how fast SPEED READ was.
Message no. 30
From: "'Spaceman' WD Lee" <spaced@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, DION SCHER wrote:
> Other than the player being a good Rp'er and playing a shaman with
> respect for spirits, is there anything/ideas that would discourage
> such use of spirits repetitively?
> ---

Opponent's with high willpower. Opponents with their own spirits.
Unseen opponents (can't see him, can't tell the spirit to get 'im). Ornry
spirits (play spirits as loathing of pc control, give them more chances to
break free, have them have varying powers "what do you mean he doesn't
have the movement/fear/x power?" etc, etc). Opponent's with the equivalent
of a courage spell cast on them......... the possibilities are endless


The Spaceman |God said, "Let there be light." And God
spaced@*.washington.edu |separated the light from the dark. And
Check out the Bill Page! |did two loads of laundry. -Genesis 1:2.5
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 31
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:08:07 +0100
DION SCHER said on 21:48/ 6 Aug 96...

> I have a question regarding the spirit power Fear.
> A sufficiently powerful spirit, say 5-6, is not hard to summon and I
> have realised can do considerable "damage" to a GM's run if abused.
> A shaman could quite happily ask the spirit to scare any conflict
> encountered away using its fear power.
>
> Other than the player being a good Rp'er and playing a shaman with
> respect for spirits, is there anything/ideas that would discourage
> such use of spirits repetitively?

Well, it gets boring, but that's not really a roleplaying solution. Then
there's the social consequences -- cops coming after the PC for scaring
the hell out of everybody ("disturbing the peace" you could call it) but
that's a small worry if it was a firefight.

You could of course increase the potential victims' Willpower, seeing that
Fear uses an opposed test between the spirit's Essence and the target's
Willpower. Less chance of a success, and so more chance the NPC will stay
put and fight.
Another idea is to let the NPCs be outside the spirit's domain -- let's
say the players are in a parking lot (City spirit domain) while the NPCs
waiting in ambush are in a park and an office building -- Forest and
Hearth spirit domains. The PC shaman summons a City spirit to cause Fear
in the NPCs, but can't reach them because they're not in the right domain.
He could summon a Forest spirit if he were close enough to the park, but
that exposes him to enemy fire, if the ambush is well-planned.

There are more things you can use: an enemy magician, elemental, or nature
spirit who will try to fight or banish the player's spirit, for instance.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Back to the known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 32
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: spirits
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:30:40 +0000
On 6 Aug 96 at 21:48, DION SCHER wrote:
> I have a question regarding the spirit power Fear.
> A sufficiently powerful spirit, say 5-6, is not hard to summon and I
> have realised can do considerable "damage" to a GM's run if abused.
> A shaman could quite happily ask the spirit to scare any conflict
> encountered away using its fear power.

> Other than the player being a good Rp'er and playing a shaman with
> respect for spirits, is there anything/ideas that would discourage
> such use of spirits repetitively?
Yup. Public opinion, for example. Start summoning a spirit in public, and
you'll encounter your nice neighbour calling Lone Star ("Someone just did
magic, and a terrible creature appeared!" - will work before The Chigaco
Thingy (public distrust of magic) and will do wonders after :-). See also the
sourcebook Threats for what may happen to the summoner. Throw in a toxic
shaman once (should be enough) to "warn" said Shaman about what might happen
if someone else takes over "your" spirit.

But of these possibilities, the public reaction would be my favourite - it
might (and will) happen enywhere, anytime, provoke absolutely unpredictable
results, doesn't "summon" a high power level (neccesarily), and matches FASA's
and my opinion (*grin*) about how people will react to something like magic.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 33
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Spirits
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:42:24 EDT
Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.edu> wrote:
>>>Most mages in my game used Watchers as Astral cannon fodder. Summon up 6 or
so, use the "Friends in Melee" rules, and they're good for supporting your
Elementals. It seems to me that the number of elementals a mage can have
makes their summoning more powerful than a shaman. Sure, a shaman doesn't
have to pay for summoning, and can whip up a spirit right quick. But no
matter how strong the spirit, it isn't going to hold up against an assault
group of 6 or more elementals.<<<

True, provided (and this is a key point) that the mage in question has had
time to call such a large group of bound elementals before the action
happens. Remember that calling a bound elemental is a Complex Exclusive
Action in SR3. That means, among other things, no use of Sorcery for Spell
Defense while you're summoning. A smart opponent goes for the mage
controlling the elementals before he can call in too many reinforcements.

Likewise, a smart shaman in a mixed-domain area (discussed in SR3) can still
have more than one nature spirit in on the action, he just doesn't get any
extra services, and he can't change the spirit's orders. Still, it's
perfectly legit for a shaman standing outside on a city street to call up a
city spirit and order it to Confuse the mage, then call up a wind spirit
(losing any remaining services from the city spirit) and tell it to fight the
mage's fire elemental. He can also start whipping up watchers if he needs
more astral muscle. A disrupted elemental is just as good as a dead one in
combat terms.

>>>To me, this seems to be a serious problem in SR3. There's damn little a
"normal" can do against a Force 6 elemental with 12 points of armor,
especially since if the power of the attack does not exceed the armor
rating, it has no effect. ["Immunity", p. 264 SR3] And if there's a gang of
6, or 12 for two mages ....<<<

Not entirely true. Anyone has the option of using Willpower to fight a spirit
in melee combat, and spirits get NO armor against such attacks. It ain't
necessarily easy, but I've seen fighter-types nail Force 4-5 spirits in one
hit. Fighting against spirits without the use of magic is definitely hard,
though. That's the idea. If you want to make it easier, either reduce the
effect of their Immunity to Normal Weapons power (say to armor = Force), or
drop the "hardening" effect from it.

Hope that helps,
Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 34
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Spirits
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:34:36 -0700
>True, provided (and this is a key point) that the mage in question has had
>time to call such a large group of bound elementals before the action
>happens. Remember that calling a bound elemental is a Complex Exclusive
>Action in SR3. That means, among other things, no use of Sorcery for Spell
>Defense while you're summoning. A smart opponent goes for the mage
>controlling the elementals before he can call in too many reinforcements.

It's a matter of tactical surprise. I'd be more afraid of a shadowrunner
group with a mage, than one with a shaman. If you're a strike team and you
have time to call up your assets, then it's a good bet that elementals are
going to be there.

Yes, of course, always geek the mage first. ;-)

Let's consider a team with two mages (such as my typical group). They're
going to attack with 12 elementals and 12 watchers. Two shamans on defense
can't really cut it, unless they outclass the mages by an extremely
significant margin.

Turning it around, if I loose such a force upon my players then all the
mundane types are going to be toast, more or less, if not the whole party.

>Likewise, a smart shaman in a mixed-domain area (discussed in SR3) can still
>have more than one nature spirit in on the action, he just doesn't get any
>extra services, and he can't change the spirit's orders. Still, it's
>perfectly legit for a shaman standing outside on a city street to call up a
>city spirit and order it to Confuse the mage, then call up a wind spirit
>(losing any remaining services from the city spirit) and tell it to fight the
>mage's fire elemental. He can also start whipping up watchers if he needs
>more astral muscle. A disrupted elemental is just as good as a dead one in
>combat terms.

Whipping up watchers doesn't solve the problem, because the mages can do
likewise. Let's say 4 spirits and 12 watchers vs. 12 elementals and 12
watchers? Add in the Friends in Melee modifier and it's pretty much a
walkover. A single Force 10 spirit is no match for 4 Force 6 spirits.

Usually, our spirit combats go like this: clouds of watchers and spirits
rush each other, disrupting each other. When the haze of swirling air
subsides, the victors manifest and begin causing havoc on the physical
world.

>Not entirely true. Anyone has the option of using Willpower to fight a spirit
>in melee combat, and spirits get NO armor against such attacks. It ain't
>necessarily easy, but I've seen fighter-types nail Force 4-5 spirits in one
>hit. Fighting against spirits without the use of magic is definitely hard,
>though. That's the idea. If you want to make it easier, either reduce the
>effect of their Immunity to Normal Weapons power (say to armor = Force), or
>drop the "hardening" effect from it.

Ah, the infamous "broomstick manuever". We call it that, because it doesn't
matter what the weapon is, as long as it has reach.

By the way, the easiest way to destroy a focus is with a mana spell (no
supression required). I don't know if that's intentional, but it certain
shifts the balance somewhat.

I think the idea I'm leaning towards is to make the creation of a hermetic
circle and enchantment task similiar to a Spirit Focus. I'll reduce the
cost by a factor of 10, to 6,000 per Rating point. A separate circle must
be drawn for each type of elemental to be summoned.

That way, without reducing the power and flexibility of elementals it will
come at much time and expense for the mage. It will require a hideout, and
be subject to tracing back to the summoner, and in general create more
role-playing opportunities for this extra power ("Why did you say you
wanted a room without fire extinguishers?")

>Hope that helps,
>Steve
>
>Kenson's Cranial Collection
>http://members.aol.com/talonmail

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 35
From: Neil Goodwin neil@***************.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Spirits
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 00:40:20 +0100
>Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.edu> wrote:

>>>>Most mages in my game used Watchers as Astral cannon fodder. Summon up 6
or
>so, use the "Friends in Melee" rules, and they're good for supporting your
>Elementals.

I haven't come across this yet, but I (as the runner) would be tempted to
ignore the watchers. Call it an unaposed attack for the watchers (or a prone
target.) The watchers have a target number of 2 to hit. Then the target has
to resist 1(M) or 2(M). If you are powerfull you should be able to soak that
with ease. Then the target just attacks/defends against the big stuff
(elemantals, astral mages, spirits...)

>It seems to me that the number of elementals a mage can have
>makes their summoning more powerful than a shaman. Sure, a shaman doesn't
>have to pay for summoning, and can whip up a spirit right quick. But no
>matter how strong the spirit, it isn't going to hold up against an assault
>group of 6 or more elementals.<<<


Elementals cost more time/cash to summon. Elementals are harder in combat,
but spirits have other uses outside combat (swings and roundabouts).

Neil

Further Reading

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