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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:08:22 -0500
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:43:23 +0200 Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Spirits, be it free, shamanistic or elemental have:
>"...Karma Pool equals the number of successes achieved in the Conjuring
>Test to summon it, plus one."
>(Sr 3rd. 189, first column, upper part)
>That is for PC conjured spirits. For NPC's it is the measure of the
>evil-GM(tm) as stated on page 266 SR 3rd., first collumn under KARMA
POOL.
<SNIP>

Wow... I hadn't realized the implications of that when I read it the
first time ... Spirits have karma (or at least a karma pool)! What the
hell am I babbling about? Free spirits in Grimmy have no karma pool and
needed karma to advance in spirit energy. They couldn't earn it
themselves so they had to get it from normal metas that could earn karma
... I suspect MitS is going to have nasty effect on how Free Spirits
operate (They no longer have to pimp themselves out for karma ...) ...
ANOTHER reason I can't wait to get my mitts on MitS ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 2
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:13:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/15/1998 9:39:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> Wow... I hadn't realized the implications of that when I read it the
> first time ... Spirits have karma (or at least a karma pool)! What the
> hell am I babbling about? Free spirits in Grimmy have no karma pool and
> needed karma to advance in spirit energy. They couldn't earn it
> themselves so they had to get it from normal metas that could earn karma
> ... I suspect MitS is going to have nasty effect on how Free Spirits
> operate (They no longer have to pimp themselves out for karma ...) ...
> ANOTHER reason I can't wait to get my mitts on MitS ...
>
Hmmm...it looks as if the one loophole in the games has been fixed finally.
Got a question going another direction now (as in, another email direction).

You are most correct if Free Spirits now have a "Karma Pool", but it still
doesn't really state where this karma came from...

-K
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:02:09 -0500
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:13:36 EDT K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 9/15/1998 9:39:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:
>> Wow... I hadn't realized the implications of that when I read it the
>> first time ... Spirits have karma (or at least a karma pool)! What
the
>> hell am I babbling about? Free spirits in Grimmy have no karma pool
and
>> needed karma to advance in spirit energy. They couldn't earn it
>> themselves so they had to get it from normal metas that could earn
karma
>> ... I suspect MitS is going to have nasty effect on how Free Spirits
>> operate (They no longer have to pimp themselves out for karma ...) ...
>> ANOTHER reason I can't wait to get my mitts on MitS ...

>Hmmm...it looks as if the one loophole in the games has been fixed
finally.
>Got a question going another direction now (as in, another email
direction).
>
>You are most correct if Free Spirits now have a "Karma Pool", but it
still
>doesn't really state where this karma came from...

No it doesn't ... However, considering the elimation of threat pools and
their replacement with standard pools, this could be an indication that
spirits are going to be treated as living entities and not just
constructs of mana. I'm also hoping MitS gets rid of that silly
progression of Force & Spirit Energy for Free Spirits ... I *HATE* that
system ... I'm thinking about writing up my own replacement since it'll
be a while before MitS comes out (MitS will be out in `99, right?)

Hmmm... I'll probably use something like advancing force costs x karma
points and advancing Spirit Energy costs y karma points (where y < x) but
Spirit Energy must be LESS than Force. However, I don't know if that'll
maintain the same progression (ie, will going from Force 2/Spirit Energy
1 to Force 3/Spirit Energy 2 cost the same karma?) I'd like to keep it
the same if possible ... is the Grimmy cost exponential?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:46:37 -0500
> ANOTHER reason I can't wait to get my mitts on MitS ...
>
> D. Ghost

Amazon.com is taking preorders on "Magic in the Shadows". I have already
ordered mine.

Mike
Message no. 5
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 05:54:13 -0500
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:46:37 -0500 Michael Coleman
<mscoleman@********.NET> writes:
<SNIP>
>Amazon.com is taking preorders on "Magic in the Shadows". I have
already
>ordered mine.
>
>Mike

I'm going to get it from my local shop (chalk it up to cutomer loyalty
and/or the 10% student discount :) ... does Amazon.com give an ETA?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:44:09 -0400
At 09:08 PM 9/15/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Wow... I hadn't realized the implications of that when I read it the
>first time ... Spirits have karma (or at least a karma pool)! What the
>hell am I babbling about? Free spirits in Grimmy have no karma pool and
>needed karma to advance in spirit energy. They couldn't earn it
>themselves so they had to get it from normal metas that could earn karma

Huh? They may very well have a "Karma Pool" but they don't have Good
Karma, and that would be what a Free Spirit uses to advance. Ease back
there, Turbo, you're jumping ahead too far methinks..

Of course, I'm not inclined to think that their "Spirit Pool" is directly
analogous to a Karma Pool anyway. Seems to be a fallacious argument, that
just because they have a pool based upon their conjurer's succeses they
have a Karma Pool. Why can't it be a Spirit Pool? Or some other pool
other than Karma?

>... I suspect MitS is going to have nasty effect on how Free Spirits
>operate (They no longer have to pimp themselves out for karma ...) ...
>ANOTHER reason I can't wait to get my mitts on MitS ...

You mentioned in another post that you hated the system of advancement for
free spirits, with their karma a spirit energy and such. Got a question
for you then. Why? Seems to work fine to me. I'm genuinely curious as to
why you dislike the (still) current system.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 7
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:56:33 -0500
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:44:09 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>You mentioned in another post that you hated the system of advancement
for
>free spirits, with their karma a spirit energy and such. Got a question
>for you then. Why? Seems to work fine to me. I'm genuinely curious as
to
>why you dislike the (still) current system.
<SNIP Sig>

I didn't like it beacuse of the power fluctuations it caused. Is a Force
4, Spirit Energy 3 spirit more or less powerful than a Force 5, Spirit
Energy 0 spirit?

The F4, SE3 is more powerful than the F5, SE0 even though the latter is a
higher "level" (though I hate to use the term in reference to Shadowrun
... levelless development is one of the things I love about Shadowrun)

IMO, that's screwy. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:00:11 -0400
At 04:56 PM 9/16/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>for you then. Why? Seems to work fine to me. I'm genuinely curious as
>to
>>why you dislike the (still) current system.
><SNIP Sig>
>
>I didn't like it beacuse of the power fluctuations it caused. Is a Force
>4, Spirit Energy 3 spirit more or less powerful than a Force 5, Spirit
>Energy 0 spirit?
>
>The F4, SE3 is more powerful than the F5, SE0 even though the latter is a
>higher "level" (though I hate to use the term in reference to Shadowrun
>... levelless development is one of the things I love about Shadowrun)

Ah, okay. To me it's simply the cost of advancement for the spirit. But
perhaps it is a bit goofy; Steve, you out there?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 9
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:09:02 -0500
> D. Ghost
>
> I'm going to get it from my local shop (chalk it up to cutomer loyalty
> and/or the 10% student discount :) ... does Amazon.com give an ETA?
>
No, sorry. Just that you can order it.

Mike
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:32:33 -0400
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

->I didn't like it beacuse of the power fluctuations it caused. Is a Force
->4, Spirit Energy 3 spirit more or less powerful than a Force 5, Spirit
->Energy 0 spirit?
->
->The F4, SE3 is more powerful than the F5, SE0 even though the latter is a
->higher "level" (though I hate to use the term in reference to Shadowrun
->... levelless development is one of the things I love about Shadowrun)
->
->IMO, that's screwy. :)

Oh, I don't know, it makes a twisted kind of sense.....
A Spirit (to use your example) is F4, SE3. That means it's
pattern is not very difficult to understand, and it's accumulated a
certain amount of 'fine tuning' of it's own power to enhance it's
abilities.
The F5 SE0 spirit was rather silly. Either it has just been
formed (and hasn't learned how to 'tune' itself yet) or it was a F4 SE4
spirirt that just made it's pattern more complex but hasn't figured out
how to 'tune' it as well as its last pattern. Because of that lack of
'fine tuning', the F5 SE0 spirit is a bit weaker, at present, than it
was as a F4, SE3 spirit but has the potential to 'fine tune' itself
further than it did before.
Did I assist in cognition or confusion?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:03:11 +1000
At 08:32 17/09/98 -0400, David Foster wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
>
>->I didn't like it beacuse of the power fluctuations it caused. Is a Force
>->4, Spirit Energy 3 spirit more or less powerful than a Force 5, Spirit
>->Energy 0 spirit?
>->
>->The F4, SE3 is more powerful than the F5, SE0 even though the latter is a
>->higher "level" (though I hate to use the term in reference to Shadowrun
>->... levelless development is one of the things I love about Shadowrun)
>->
>->IMO, that's screwy. :)
>
> Oh, I don't know, it makes a twisted kind of sense.....
> A Spirit (to use your example) is F4, SE3. That means it's
>pattern is not very difficult to understand, and it's accumulated a
>certain amount of 'fine tuning' of it's own power to enhance it's
>abilities.
> The F5 SE0 spirit was rather silly. Either it has just been
>formed (and hasn't learned how to 'tune' itself yet) or it was a F4 SE4
>spirirt that just made it's pattern more complex but hasn't figured out
>how to 'tune' it as well as its last pattern. Because of that lack of
>'fine tuning', the F5 SE0 spirit is a bit weaker, at present, than it
>was as a F4, SE3 spirit but has the potential to 'fine tune' itself
>further than it did before.
> Did I assist in cognition or confusion?

And Free Spirits tend to be fairly smart - the F4, SE3 has an
intelligence of 7! So, they'd accumulate karma until they can make the
increase in Force without reverting to a loss in power. In D. Ghost's
spirit above, it'd be smart enough to save up 7 karma and so become a F5,
SE 2 spirit. In our game it'd save up at least 10 karma and make the
transition to F5, SE 3 keeping the True Name quest just as difficult.




Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
I believe no problem is so large or so difficult that it can't be
blamed on somebody else.
- Nixon
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 12
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:27:59 EDT
In a message dated 9/19/1998 12:45:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU writes:

>
> And Free Spirits tend to be fairly smart - the F4, SE3 has an
> intelligence of 7! So, they'd accumulate karma until they can make the
> increase in Force without reverting to a loss in power. In D. Ghost's
> spirit above, it'd be smart enough to save up 7 karma and so become a F5,
> SE 2 spirit. In our game it'd save up at least 10 karma and make the
> transition to F5, SE 3 keeping the True Name quest just as difficult.
>
Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange material
of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes" are not
effected by spirit energy.

-K
Message no. 13
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:47:39 +1000
At 03:27 19/09/98 EDT, K in the Shadows wrote:
>In a message dated 9/19/1998 12:45:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU writes:
>
>>
>> And Free Spirits tend to be fairly smart - the F4, SE3 has an
>> intelligence of 7! So, they'd accumulate karma until they can make the
>> increase in Force without reverting to a loss in power. In D. Ghost's
>> spirit above, it'd be smart enough to save up 7 karma and so become a F5,
>> SE 2 spirit. In our game it'd save up at least 10 karma and make the
>> transition to F5, SE 3 keeping the True Name quest just as difficult.
>>
>Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange material
>of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes" are not
>effected by spirit energy.
>

Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79 it just
says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this bonus. A
free forest spirit... with a Force Rating 5 and Spirit Energy of 5 would
have Attributes based on a total Force Rating of 10, not 5." It doesn't
seem to limit the attributes effected or, perhaps, do you feel that
"physical manifestation" indicate this paragraph is only referring to
physical attributes? I admit I'd never considered that.

Or is there something on another page or book?




Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go
away.
- Philip K. Dick
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 14
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:56:21 -0400
At 12:47 AM 9-20-98 +1000, you wrote:

>At 03:27 19/09/98 EDT, K in the Shadows wrote:

>>In a message dated 9/19/1998 12:45:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>>cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU writes:
>>
>>Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange material
>>of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes" are
not
>>effected by spirit energy.
>
>Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79 it just
>says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this bonus. A
>free forest spirit... with a Force Rating 5 and Spirit Energy of 5 would
>have Attributes based on a total Force Rating of 10, not 5." It doesn't
>seem to limit the attributes effected or, perhaps, do you feel that
>"physical manifestation" indicate this paragraph is only referring to
>physical attributes? I admit I'd never considered that.

Hello, I'm a newbie to the list, but I thought I'd jump in with both feet
here...

To me, this fails the common sense test. Specifically, I don't see a
spirit suddenly becoming more intelligent or stronger willed simply by
creating a physical shell for its Essence to roam the physical world in,
even though its Spirit Energy is juicing up that shell. Especially when
you consider that most spirits supposedly find manifestation uncomfortable
and unnatural.

However, I could make the argument either way, so I imagine that it's one
of those things that goes to personal taste.
Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 15
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:26:51 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:56 PM 9/19/98 -0400, Starjammer wrote:
>>Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79
it just
>>says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this
bonus.
<<Snip>>
>To me, this fails the common sense test. Specifically, I don't see a
>spirit suddenly becoming more intelligent or stronger willed simply
by
>creating a physical shell for its Essence to roam the physical world
in,
>even though its Spirit Energy is juicing up that shell.

Note that the original text says "Physical manifestations of the
spirit _also_ benefit..." (emphasis added).
Also means in adition to something else. The way I read that, it says
Free spirits get to add their spirit energy... they _also_ get this
bonus when manifested.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 16
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:51:12 -0500
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:27:59 EDT K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 9/19/1998 12:45:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

>Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange
material
>of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes" are
not
>effected by spirit energy.
>
>-K

That is correct. The only attributes that are affected by Spirit Energy
are the PHYSICAL manifestation attributes. Since I can't see how
manifesting can make you smarter, I'm guessing only the physical
attributes are affected by a physically manifesting. That means in
astral space, a F2 SE2 spirit fights like a F2 spirit ... (well, the SE2
spirit can have some advantages)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 17
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:34:23 -0500
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:26:51 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP Mental attribs don't get boost from Spirit Energy>

>Note that the original text says "Physical manifestations of the
>spirit _also_ benefit..." (emphasis added).
>Also means in adition to something else. The way I read that, it says
>Free spirits get to add their spirit energy... they _also_ get this
>bonus when manifested.

The problem is, Paul, that the original quote came from Grimmy and in the
Grimmy it says (paraphrasing):
Spirit powers get a boost from Spirit Energy. Physical Manifestations
also benefit.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 18
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:28:10 +1000
At 12:56 19/09/98 -0400, Starjammer wrote:
>At 12:47 AM 9-20-98 +1000, Chris Maxfield wrote:
>>At 03:27 19/09/98 EDT, K in the Shadows wrote:
>>>Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange
material
>>>of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes"
are not
>>>effected by spirit energy.
>>
>>Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79 it just
>>says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this bonus. A
>>free forest spirit... with a Force Rating 5 and Spirit Energy of 5 would
>>have Attributes based on a total Force Rating of 10, not 5." It doesn't
>>seem to limit the attributes effected or, perhaps, do you feel that
>>"physical manifestation" indicate this paragraph is only referring to
>>physical attributes? I admit I'd never considered that.
>
>Hello, I'm a newbie to the list, but I thought I'd jump in with both feet
>here...
>
>To me, this fails the common sense test. Specifically, I don't see a
>spirit suddenly becoming more intelligent or stronger willed simply by
>creating a physical shell for its Essence to roam the physical world in,
>even though its Spirit Energy is juicing up that shell. Especially when
>you consider that most spirits supposedly find manifestation uncomfortable
>and unnatural.
>
>However, I could make the argument either way, so I imagine that it's one
>of those things that goes to personal taste.

Yes. I can see the common sense argument. The problem, however, is that
everything I've seen tends to support the other side. For example, in the
Harlequin book of adventures, Ehran's bound free spirit "Ariel" with Force
5 and Spirit Energy 3, has all her manifested mental attributes at 8. For
us, at the time anyway, that settled the matter since the editor of that
book was Tom Dowd.

Are there any counter-examples?




Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
You know, just once I'd like to meet an alien menace that wasn't
immune to bullets.
- Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart:
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 19
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:56:01 EDT
In a message dated 9/19/1998 10:20:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU writes:

> >Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange
material
> >of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes" are
not
> >effected by spirit energy.
> >
>
> Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79 it just
> says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this bonus. A
> free forest spirit... with a Force Rating 5 and Spirit Energy of 5 would
> have Attributes based on a total Force Rating of 10, not 5." It doesn't
> seem to limit the attributes effected or, perhaps, do you feel that
> "physical manifestation" indicate this paragraph is only referring to
> physical attributes? I admit I'd never considered that.
>
> Or is there something on another page or book?
>
I found that reference, and maybe I did just always keep referring to the
"Mentals" as the Force of the spirit in question, with Spirit Energy (which is
described as a measure of how a spirits gains power in the "physical world"),
I always attributed it therefore to just the Physical Attributes when a spirit
is Manifesting (Materializing in SR3).

If not, then it's a House Rule we've kept for years now, and I do apologize.

-K
Message no. 20
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:28:42 +1000
At 00:56 20/09/98 EDT, K in the Shadows wrote:
>In a message dated 9/19/1998 10:20:01 Chris Maxfield writes:
>
>> >Uh, hold on a second Chris. I admit I've been reading some strange
>material
>> >of late, but I really seem to recall that the "Mental Attributes"
are not
>> >effected by spirit energy.
>> >
>>
>> Hang on a moment, let me check this... Well, in the Grimmy page 79 it just
>> says "Physical manifestations of the spirit also benefit from this
bonus. A
>> free forest spirit... with a Force Rating 5 and Spirit Energy of 5 would
>> have Attributes based on a total Force Rating of 10, not 5." It doesn't
>> seem to limit the attributes effected or, perhaps, do you feel that
>> "physical manifestation" indicate this paragraph is only referring to
>> physical attributes? I admit I'd never considered that.
>>
>> Or is there something on another page or book?
>>
>I found that reference, and maybe I did just always keep referring to the
>"Mentals" as the Force of the spirit in question, with Spirit Energy
(which is
>described as a measure of how a spirits gains power in the "physical
world"),
>I always attributed it therefore to just the Physical Attributes when a
spirit
>is Manifesting (Materializing in SR3).
>
>If not, then it's a House Rule we've kept for years now, and I do apologize.

No apology necessary. I'm glad that another ambiguity has been pointed out
so that it can be fixed in Mits, since there are people on this list
currently play-testing Mits.




Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if
you live near him.
- The Hobbit
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 21
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:16:27 -0400
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Chris Maxfield wrote:

->At 08:32 17/09/98 -0400, David Foster wrote:
->>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
->>
->>->I didn't like it beacuse of the power fluctuations it caused. Is a Force
->>->4, Spirit Energy 3 spirit more or less powerful than a Force 5, Spirit
->>->Energy 0 spirit?
->>->
->>->The F4, SE3 is more powerful than the F5, SE0 even though the latter is a
->>->higher "level" (though I hate to use the term in reference to
Shadowrun
->>->... levelless development is one of the things I love about Shadowrun)
->>->
->>->IMO, that's screwy. :)
->>
->> Oh, I don't know, it makes a twisted kind of sense.....
->> A Spirit (to use your example) is F4, SE3. That means it's
->>pattern is not very difficult to understand, and it's accumulated a
->>certain amount of 'fine tuning' of it's own power to enhance it's
->>abilities.
->> The F5 SE0 spirit was rather silly. Either it has just been
->>formed (and hasn't learned how to 'tune' itself yet) or it was a F4 SE4
->>spirirt that just made it's pattern more complex but hasn't figured out
->>how to 'tune' it as well as its last pattern. Because of that lack of
->>'fine tuning', the F5 SE0 spirit is a bit weaker, at present, than it
->>was as a F4, SE3 spirit but has the potential to 'fine tune' itself
->>further than it did before.
->> Did I assist in cognition or confusion?
->
-> And Free Spirits tend to be fairly smart - the F4, SE3 has an
->intelligence of 7!

Negative, mental statistics are not increased by spirit energy.
Grimoire 2 says "physical manifestations" get the bonus from Spirit
Energy. I interpret this to mean their physical stats only, but you may
interpret differently.

->So, they'd accumulate karma until they can make the
->increase in Force without reverting to a loss in power. In D. Ghost's
->spirit above, it'd be smart enough to save up 7 karma and so become a F5,
->SE 2 spirit. In our game it'd save up at least 10 karma and make the
->transition to F5, SE 3 keeping the True Name quest just as difficult.

That's what mine do too. THey never let their F+SE (before
upgrade) be more than their F+SE afterwards.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 22
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Spirits and karma (Was: Spirit Banishing)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:32:17 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:34 PM 9/19/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>The problem is, Paul, that the original quote came from Grimmy and in
the
>Grimmy it says (paraphrasing):
>Spirit powers get a boost from Spirit Energy. Physical
Manifestations
>also benefit.

And the very last sentence in that same paragraph reads:
"A free forest spirit, a Spirit of the Land, with a Force Rating of 5
and Spirit Energy of 5 would have Attributes based on a total Force
Rating of 10, not 5."

Maybe I'm just being silly here, but I've always taken that at face
value. To me, the intent seems pretty clear: in all normal situations
a Free Spirit's effective Force is equal to actual Force plus Spirit
Energy. The sentence says Attributes. FASA's usually good at saying
"Physical Attributes" if that's what they mean. Of course this applies
in the astral, because that's the natural place to find free spirits,
but it "also" applies when they manifest.

I think a quote from the next page tends to support this view:

"...with the usual bonuses alloted to a free spirit. That is, its
effective Force Rating equals its Force Rating plus its Spirit
Energy."

YMMV.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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