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From:	Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Spirits of the skies
Date:	Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:12:24 -0600

Message no. 1 Ok. Can you summon a mist spirit or a storm spirit only if there is mist
or a storm, or can you summon one of these spirits at any time (while
outside, of course)?

If you can't summon them unless the appropriate 'element' is present, are
there any other spirits of the skies? blue sky spirits? cloud spirits?
partly-sunny spirits?

this is my main question, the rest of these are just floaters.
if you'd like to respond to just this one, that'd be fine.

does anyone use the [fire vs. water elemental] total destruction rule for
the River, sea, etc. spirits vs. fire elementals?

[total destruction rule: larger elemental has force reduced by lesser
elemental's force. lesser elemental is destroyed]

[ what I'm getting at here is since the differences between Mages and
Shamans is more of a mindset or technique, do you consider the spirits
(like the nature spirits of water, who have the engulf
power, to be [effectively] the same as water elementals)

The main difference between these types [nature spirits of the waters,
and water elementals] is stuff like line of sight, and conjuring system.
Most of the attributes are identical, and they both have engulf.

What happens if a shamanic spirit is disrupted?
seems it would only do something for elementals, or is it that the shaman
cannot summon spirits of that type [sea, for instance] for 28 days -
Force if the spirit that they summoned is disrupted, since a shaman can
only have one spirit in each domain at a time?

Does anyone have a more coherent version of the 'multiple spirits, one
shaman' rules that make an appearance in Awakenings [specifically, the
'Tommy Dre' text] and Grimoire [the forest/mountain spirit bit]?

'Great Nature spirits can cross domain boundaries.' Does this mean that
the spirit can pursue and fight you, does it mean that the spirit can
also use it's powers [alienation, etc.] as well?

[Can a Great City spirit alienate or conceal a target/shaman if they
cross the domain into a park (forest spirit for the purposes of discussion)

or can the great city spirit only manifest and attack outside of its domain?]

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:21:38 -0500

Message no. 2 >Ok. Can you summon a mist spirit or a storm spirit only if there is mist
>or a storm, or can you summon one of these spirits at any time (while
>outside, of course)?

Only when some element of that weather is present....wish I remember where I
saw that...

>If you can't summon them unless the appropriate 'element' is present, are
>there any other spirits of the skies? blue sky spirits? cloud spirits?
>partly-sunny spirits?

Good question....I would tend to say any cloud cover worth mentioning
qualifies you to be able to summon a storm spirit....As for the
others.....are they truly different?

>does anyone use the [fire vs. water elemental] total destruction rule for
>the River, sea, etc. spirits vs. fire elementals?

No....The river spirit (et al) has far more (and less) to it's make up than
a water elemental...it is not directly opposed to the Element of fire. And
forget the engulf thing....all elementals have it, and the fact that they
are spirits of the Water with engulf doesn't make them elementals.

>[ what I'm getting at here is since the differences between Mages and
>Shamans is more of a mindset or technique, do you consider the spirits
>(like the nature spirits of water, who have the engulf
>power, to be [effectively] the same as water elementals)

But the difference in mindset summons a very different spirit. Sorry.

>The main difference between these types [nature spirits of the waters,
>and water elementals] is stuff like line of sight, and conjuring system.
>Most of the attributes are identical, and they both have engulf.

Look past the numbers....they represent a different concept.

>What happens if a shamanic spirit is disrupted?
>seems it would only do something for elementals, or is it that the shaman

Truth. The Shaman is still able to summon that type...(not the same exact
spirit, but since nature has an infinite amount....

>cannot summon spirits of that type [sea, for instance] for 28 days -
>Force if the spirit that they summoned is disrupted, since a shaman can
>only have one spirit in each domain at a time?

Once disrupted, assume the shaman releases it: No longer a problem.

>Does anyone have a more coherent version of the 'multiple spirits, one
>shaman' rules that make an appearance in Awakenings [specifically, the
>'Tommy Dre' text] and Grimoire [the forest/mountain spirit bit]?

Which part didn't you understand? You can summon one spirit per domain, but
you can change domains and leave a spirit doing a task. In areas that
overlap domains, you can shift your mindset, and then act as if you are in a
new domain, just as if you had physically moved.

>'Great Nature spirits can cross domain boundaries.' Does this mean that
>the spirit can pursue and fight you, does it mean that the spirit can
>also use it's powers [alienation, etc.] as well?
>[Can a Great City spirit alienate or conceal a target/shaman if they
>cross the domain into a park (forest spirit for the purposes of discussion)
>or can the great city spirit only manifest and attack outside of its domain?]

It's unclear, but we've been taking it to mean it can do any powers save
ones obviously limited specifically to the domain. (To date I think that is
Search and Engulf Only, Accident and Guard are arguable)

I'd love it if anyone knew of a ruling on this one.
-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:17:55 +0800

Message no. 3 >Ok. Can you summon a mist spirit or a storm spirit only if there is mist
>or a storm, or can you summon one of these spirits at any time (while
>outside, of course)?

Nope, unfortunately you can only summon a particular Spirit if part of that
element is present. eg Mist, Storm Clouds etc etc. I dont exactly know the
exact ruling, but that is my two cents worth of interpretation. (might be an
overflow from my days of calling lightning in D&D). ;)

>If you can't summon them unless the appropriate 'element' is present, are
>there any other spirits of the skies? blue sky spirits? cloud spirits?
>partly-sunny spirits?

I treat them all as the same. What appears is what the weather is like (or
what my mood is reflecting).

>[total destruction rule: larger elemental has force reduced by lesser
>elemental's force. lesser elemental is destroyed]

I dont actually do it this way...HOUSE RULE ;) ....
I compare the forces of the elementals as a percentage eg

Fire elemental force 4
Water elemental force 6
Total combined force is 10

I then roll a D100...the percentage chance of the fire elemental winning is
40%, while the percentage chance of the water elemental winning is 60%. I
roll the dice, whoever looses has its force reduced by 1. I then recalculate
the percentage chances (dependent on the new forces) and roll again. I do
this until one elemental is reduced to "0". I know it involves a few more
calculations, but it gives the small chance of weaker elementals defeating
the bigger elementals, PLUS as an old Rolemaster GM I like calculations! ;)

>What happens if a shamanic spirit is disrupted?
>seems it would only do something for elementals, or is it that the shaman
>cannot summon spirits of that type [sea, for instance] for 28 days -
>Force if the spirit that they summoned is disrupted, since a shaman can
>only have one spirit in each domain at a time?

I dont do anything if a Shamanic Spirit is disrupted...I play it as one of
the advantages of Shaman's.

>'Great Nature spirits can cross domain boundaries.' Does this mean that
>the spirit can pursue and fight you, does it mean that the spirit can
>also use it's powers [alienation, etc.] as well?

Interesting question - I dont have a reply but I would love to read other
replies on this.

Cheers,

Gav

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:48:04 GMT

Message no. 4 Brett Borger writes

> >Ok. Can you summon a mist spirit or a storm spirit only if there is mist
> >or a storm, or can you summon one of these spirits at any time (while
> >outside, of course)?
>
> Only when some element of that weather is present....wish I remember where I
> saw that...
>
Correct, and storm would mean at least windy plus rain! yes that
means summoning these two spirit types needs some luck on the weather
both are pretty good when you can get them mind.

> >If you can't summon them unless the appropriate 'element' is present, are
> >there any other spirits of the skies? blue sky spirits? cloud spirits?
> >partly-sunny spirits?
>
> Good question....I would tend to say any cloud cover worth mentioning
> qualifies you to be able to summon a storm spirit.
i disagree, see above.
>...As for the
> others.....are they truly different?

If you cannot get sky spirit you can always raise one appropriate to
the ground terrain so not really a major problem.

>
> >does anyone use the [fire vs. water elemental] total destruction rule for
> >the River, sea, etc. spirits vs. fire elementals?
>
No, as spirit damage codes are listed on the magical attacks table in
SR2 (that also gives the codes for spells, barriers etc in astral
combat) you can resolve it as combat. The idea that a force 4 water
elemental will do more to a force 10 anything that cost it an action
to swat is crazy by any other rule, and this rule suggests that for
free spirits etc you use normal comat so why not all the time.

> Once disrupted, assume the shaman releases it: No longer a problem.
>
reasonable, mages can do this and just summon another instead as a
solution.

> >Does anyone have a more coherent version of the 'multiple spirits, one
> >shaman' rules that make an appearance in Awakenings [specifically, the
> >'Tommy Dre' text] and Grimoire [the forest/mountain spirit bit]?
>
> Which part didn't you understand? You can summon one spirit per domain, but
> you can change domains and leave a spirit doing a task. In areas that
> overlap domains, you can shift your mindset, and then act as if you are in a
> new domain, just as if you had physically moved.
correct.
note maximum spirits equals Charisma, you can only instruct the
spirit whose domain you are in, and normal spirits cannot use thier
powers outside thier domain.

>
> >'Great Nature spirits can cross domain boundaries.' Does this mean that
> >the spirit can pursue and fight you, does it mean that the spirit can
> >also use it's powers [alienation, etc.] as well?
> >[Can a Great City spirit alienate or conceal a target/shaman if they
> >cross the domain into a park (forest spirit for the purposes of discussion)
> >or can the great city spirit only manifest and attack outside of its domain?]
>
> It's unclear, but we've been taking it to mean it can do any powers save
> ones obviously limited specifically to the domain. (To date I think that is
> Search and Engulf Only, Accident and Guard are arguable)
>
> I'd love it if anyone knew of a ruling on this one.
I don't think its to black and white bur i would say no limit. Great
form spirits are brilliant, but considering what it takes to summon
one (i am having far too much fun with a 'parrot' that was supposed
to be a force 6 great form till somebody passed out in the place of
fear :), now running about free trying to tempt PC's out of karma)
i'd say no limits on them using thier powers anywhere.

>

Mark

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:59 +0100

Message no. 5 Priority: normal
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:48:04 GMT
Reply-to: M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Organization: The Robert Gordon University
Subject: Re: Spirits of the skies
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET

Mark Steedman meant:

Brett Borger writes

> >Does anyone have a more coherent version of the 'multiple spirits, one
> >shaman' rules that make an appearance in Awakenings [specifically, the
> >'Tommy Dre' text] and Grimoire [the forest/mountain spirit bit]?
>
> Which part didn't you understand? You can summon one spirit per domain, but
> you can change domains and leave a spirit doing a task. In areas that
> overlap domains, you can shift your mindset, and then act as if you are in a
> new domain, just as if you had physically moved.
>correct.
>note maximum spirits equals Charisma, you can only instruct the
>spirit whose domain you are in, and normal spirits cannot use thier
>powers outside thier domain.

Hold on a minute, you are talking about overlapping domains. But the
Grimoire sais (p45 in the german version) that domains never overlap.
And yes, normal spirits cant use their powers outside their domain,
but simply because they CAN'T LEAVE IT.
ss

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:19:26 GMT

Message no. 6 Simon T. Sailer writes
>
> > you can change domains and leave a spirit doing a task. In areas that
> > overlap domains, you can shift your mindset, and then act as if you are in a
> > new domain, just as if you had physically moved.
> >correct.
> >note maximum spirits equals Charisma, you can only instruct the
> >spirit whose domain you are in, and normal spirits cannot use thier
> >powers outside thier domain.
>
> Hold on a minute, you are talking about overlapping domains. But the
> Grimoire sais (p45 in the german version) that domains never overlap.
You cannot be 'magically' in more than one domain at a time.

But say you are in a city street and theres lightning and rain
everywhere, now are you in a city domain or a storm?
Physically both are true, from a spiritual (SR) point of view the
shaman can attune himself to one OR the other, so he's only in one
'domain' but could have picked either.

> And yes, normal spirits cant use their powers outside their domain,
> but simply because they CAN'T LEAVE IT.
No some powers have range and without this rule a hearth spirit could
in theory look out of a window and effect someone in the street, but
this rule exists so it can't.

Mark

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:54:44 -0500

Message no. 7 >> Which part didn't you understand? You can summon one spirit per domain, but
>> you can change domains and leave a spirit doing a task. In areas that
>> overlap domains, you can shift your mindset, and then act as if you are in a
>> new domain, just as if you had physically moved.
>>correct.
>>note maximum spirits equals Charisma, you can only instruct the
>>spirit whose domain you are in, and normal spirits cannot use thier
>>powers outside thier domain.
>
>Hold on a minute, you are talking about overlapping domains. But the
>Grimoire sais (p45 in the german version) that domains never overlap.
>And yes, normal spirits cant use their powers outside their domain,
>but simply because they CAN'T LEAVE IT.

Three Points:
1) The overlapping domains was overruled in Awakenings.
2) The nature spirit can't use it's powers outside it's domain, even if it
stood at the edge and had the area of effect "bleed" over. So it is more
than his inability to leave.
3) ...Leading to our discussion of whether Great Nature spirits can use
their powers outside their domain. They can leave, but did the great form
expand their powers, or are they "tied" to their domain? My statement on
the Search power, for example, was made because I have troubles thinking
that a River Spirit can use it's powers to Search a city block....I see the
domain and the power as tied. (Though I'm open to argument.)

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	"Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject:	Fwd: Re: Spirits of the skies
Date:	Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:55:22 +0100

Message no. 8 =================¾GIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
> On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:19:26 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> >But say you are in a city street and theres lightning and rain
> >everywhere, now are you in a city domain or a storm?
> > Physically both are true, from a spiritual (SR) point of view the
> >shaman can attune himself to one OR the other, so he's only in one
> >'domain' but could have picked either.
> >
> Can you support this with a quote?
not just now, remind me Monday and i might ( unfortunately only
might) find time to try and find a suitable quote.

> I don't remember reading anything
> like this in SR2 or Grimmy,
Feeling says its probably awakenings that explains this so if you
don't have that that could be the cause. Sory i don't have books at
my email access and have a pile of stuff on the read list beofre
quote hunting.

> and it doesn't fit in my SR-world too
> good... But if it's official I will swallow it :) of course it would
> make shamans a lot more flexible like in your example.
>
Yeah. If you have awakening try that, otherwise remind me or mail the
list and see if someone else will try looking it up.

Mark
===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================
So my question still stands ... slightly modified.
What's about overlapping domains? Awakenings stuff???

Anyway, I think it's quite contradictory to what SR2/Grimmy
say about domains, isn't it?

--
Arno
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