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From:	"Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:	Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:27:00 -0500

Message no. 1 On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, Loki wrote:

> > Wolf rolled 22 dice (Effect 13 force, +2 Wolf, +7 from Magic Pool),
> Wasp
> > rolled 8 dice.
> >
> > Guess who died? (Can we say.... "Bzzzz *splat!*"?)

> I usually allow spirits and elemantals to add in their threat rating dice
> when rolling to resist spells, they are made out of the ethereal fabric of
> magic afterall... ;o)

WRT giving Spirits (of any type) a Threat Rating equal to the Force:

Consider that Prime Runners (p 102) suggests a Threat Rating of F/2 for
spirits as a first guess. (IMO too generous, but WTH...)

Consider that the Great Dragon Rhonabwy has a Magical Threat of 12. His
Magic Rating is 25, as are his Sorcery and Conjuring.

Are you saying that Spirits are twice as ferocious as everything else?
That'd make a Force 12 spirit as Threatening as a GREAT DRAGON!

Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism..h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:49:46 -0800

Message no. 2 On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, Brian W. Allison wrote:

> WRT giving Spirits (of any type) a Threat Rating equal to the Force:
>
> Consider that Prime Runners (p 102) suggests a Threat Rating of F/2 for
> spirits as a first guess. (IMO too generous, but WTH...)
>
> Consider that the Great Dragon Rhonabwy has a Magical Threat of 12. His
> Magic Rating is 25, as are his Sorcery and Conjuring.
>
>
> Are you saying that Spirits are twice as ferocious as everything else?
> That'd make a Force 12 spirit as Threatening as a GREAT DRAGON!
>
> Brian W. Allison

Well, the dragon has a lot of other things going for him (armor, spells,
big-nasty-claws, and skills..), while most spirits only have thier
hand-full of powers. In my experience if you DON'T give spirits a Threat
equal to their full force, they just aren't terribly threatening. A force
6 elemental with only a TR of 3 doesn't last too long.

WRT the force 12 spirit vs Great Dragon, your probably right. If I had
the choice of facing either a force 12 spirit or a great dragon, I'd
probably choose to chew on my heavy pistol. However, I would consider the
dragon a GREATER threat despite the fact that they have equal TR's.

I guess that IMHO the actual TR is only half of the 'threat level' of the
NPC. You can have a highly skilled and equipped NPC with a low TR be just
as threatening as a meagerly equipped, High TR NPC. The TR is just
another modifier to 'tweak' the NPC to get the appropriate effect.

~Tim

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Fri, 27 Dec 1996 19:04:49 -0500

Message no. 3 On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:

> hand-full of powers. In my experience if you DON'T give spirits a Threat
> equal to their full force, they just aren't terribly threatening. A force
> 6 elemental with only a TR of 3 doesn't last too long.

Then it's being played stupidly, or you've a powerful mage who knows how
to fight spirits. Face it, a force 6 elemental is about as powerful as a
beginning magician. Get some spells, a grade or two fo initiation, and
that force 6 is nothing to worry about. As it should be.

You're describing a world where the PCs will forever suck against
anything magical, where a 300 karma charcter acts like he's only got about
50 under his belt.

> I guess that IMHO the actual TR is only half of the 'threat level' of the
> NPC. You can have a highly skilled and equipped NPC with a low TR be just
> as threatening as a meagerly equipped, High TR NPC. The TR is just
> another modifier to 'tweak' the NPC to get the appropriate effect.

Perhaps your GM is ignoring the 12 points of armor that the Force 6
Spirit gets against weapons.
Or he's forgetting that the Sam only gets (Willpower) dice to attack,
and no Combat Pool.
Or he's forgetting that many Insect Spirits won't be alone. (Oh yeah,
*try* to defend against 5 enemy spirits with Initiatives around 20+D6 who
each get 12 Dice to attack and who mostly ignore your weaponry...)
Or he's forgotten that Insects get Force/2 as their Combat Threat
Rating? (Even Teachdaire only got 8 points and he's a fragging GRADE 9
PA!)

If your GM has to 'tweak' the spirits by doubling the suggested Threat
Rating, then something's pretty massively out of balance - IMO.

Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---

From:	Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:19:01 -0000

Message no. 4 > > I usually allow spirits and elemantals to add in their threat rating
dice
> > when rolling to resist spells, they are made out of the ethereal fabric
of
> > magic afterall... ;o)
>
> WRT giving Spirits (of any type) a Threat Rating equal to the Force:

OK, what's WRT?

> Consider that Prime Runners (p 102) suggests a Threat Rating of F/2 for
> spirits as a first guess. (IMO too generous, but WTH...)
>
> Consider that the Great Dragon Rhonabwy has a Magical Threat of 12. His
> Magic Rating is 25, as are his Sorcery and Conjuring.
>
> Are you saying that Spirits are twice as ferocious as everything else?
> That'd make a Force 12 spirit as Threatening as a GREAT DRAGON!

Keep in mind it says over and over in the books that suggested threat
ratings are merely a guideline. In the source book it even suggest
multiplying threat ratings by 1.5 times if NPC's aren't a match for your
players.

My players play smart and hard, and so far I've found giving spirits a
threat rating equal to force gives the game balance and threat they like.
So I'll keep it as that.

Personally I find giving a Great Dragon any kind of threat rating
ludicrous. Hell, they won't even list stats for Harlequin, but they'll slap
a threat rating of twelve on a Great Dragon???

Besides, I thought most people on the list wrote Prime Runners off as a
source not really to be consulted or quoted. ;o)

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:54:38 +0100

Message no. 5 Loki said on 0:19/28 Dec 96...

> > WRT giving Spirits (of any type) a Threat Rating equal to the Force:
>
> OK, what's WRT?

"With regard to"? (Just guessing, it fits but I'm not sure...)

> Personally I find giving a Great Dragon any kind of threat rating
> ludicrous. Hell, they won't even list stats for Harlequin, but they'll slap
> a threat rating of twelve on a Great Dragon???

But they also say ol' Harley is probably the most powerful critter
walking the face of the earth... Taking that approach, others of that
power level, like most really great dragons, shouldn't get stats either,
but for not-so-great dragons (medium dragons? :), especially those that
players are to fight and kill, would get stats.
(BTW, I recall someone mentioning once that an issue of Dragon (one of
T$R's magazines) had an article by Tom Dowd with a description and stats
for Dunkelzahn)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It snowed!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:54:37 +0100

Message no. 6 Brian W. Allison said on 16:27/27 Dec 96...

> Are you saying that Spirits are twice as ferocious as everything else?

Bug City lists the Threat/Professional Ratings for all true form insect
spirits I just looked at as Force/4. That does not mean Force divided by
4, if you ask me... I don't have Prime Runners, and I don't intend to buy
it just to find out how those revised threat ratings are calculated
(couldn't those have been published in the Companion as well? They'd have
fit in well with the contacts/enemies chapter...) but I understand it
splits the TR into smallers ones for different situations; that would not
be that great for spirits, if you ask me -- not if they're all based on
Force, anyway.

> That'd make a Force 12 spirit as Threatening as a GREAT DRAGON!

And it should be -- how often do you come across a Force 12 spirit? Most
PCs I've seen have had enough trouble dealing with Force 6 to 8.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It snowed!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:11:35 -0500

Message no. 7 On Sat, 28 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Brian W. Allison said on 16:27/27 Dec 96...
>
> > Are you saying that Spirits are twice as ferocious as everything else?
>
> Bug City lists the Threat/Professional Ratings for all true form insect
> spirits I just looked at as Force/4. That does not mean Force divided by
> 4, if you ask me... I don't have Prime Runners, and I don't intend to buy

Well, if it's listed as Force/4, then I'd read it as Force/4, seeing as
how "x/4" means "x divided by 4".

> > That'd make a Force 12 spirit as Threatening as a GREAT DRAGON!
>
> And it should be -- how often do you come across a Force 12 spirit? Most
> PCs I've seen have had enough trouble dealing with Force 6 to 8.

Absolute Crap.

If Force 12 Insect Spirits were as Threatening as a Great Dragon, then
they'd be something other than a complete joke for a Great Dragon with a
Magic Rating of 25.

They're not.

And yes, most PCs have a lot of trouble with Force 6 to 8 spirits. So
there's no need then to give them a Threat Rating of Force, neh? Oh..
you've changed that to make a Force 6 to 8 'worth the fight'. Well then
you've also made a force 6 spirit considerably more difficult for a mage
to Dispell.
IOW, you've seriously weakened the ability of a mage to deal with
something that's as magically powerful as he is.

As I said before, sounds like someone's running a campagin where magic
is less effective for the PCs but more effective for the NPCs.
Sure, it's *your* game. But now you've shown me that "the guideline" is
no longer to use F/2, but to use F/4 for a Spirit's Threat Rating.

Gee, this whole thread started because I was relating to how a Shaman
dealt with one bug. I wasn't 'asking' you (or anyone else) anything, I was
sharing. Then someone starts in on the one-upmanship by telling how "In
*MY* game the PC would be toast!"

Well, in *my* game things make sense to me and PC magic is just as
effective as NPC magic of the same level.

Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---

From:	Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 09:38:53 -0000

Message no. 8 > Gee, this whole thread started because I was relating to how a Shaman
> dealt with one bug. I wasn't 'asking' you (or anyone else) anything, I
was
> sharing. Then someone starts in on the one-upmanship by telling how "In
> *MY* game the PC would be toast!"
>
> Well, in *my* game things make sense to me and PC magic is just as
> effective as NPC magic of the same level.
>
>
>
>
> Brian W. Allison

Why be so defensive? This list is for stuff like this, you say how things
are in your game and then others comment on how it is in their's. It's a
trade back and forth.

I'd just commented on how I give spirits a threat rating of their force on
resisting spells and such (which also applies to the spirits/elementals
summoned by my players) and you went on the defensive and start borderline
attacking me and Gurth (I quote - "absolute crap!")

Relax, it's just an exchange. No one is forcing our rules or
interpretations on you.

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Spirit Threat Dice (was Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date:	Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:50:52 -0800

Message no. 9 [snip Brian's rant]

Huh?

I don't know where the 'one-up-manship' stuff came from...
AFAIK we're debating about the "Suggested" Threat Ratings for spirits.

So far between the various rules and house-rules these range from F/4 to
F. The F/4 'rule' came from Bug City (which makes sense because Bug
spirits don't exactly NEED a terribly high TR to be threatening, all their
innate abilities and armor and speed do that for them), while F/2 was used
for more 'conventional' spirits (nature and Elemental). These more
conventional spirits, IMHO, repeat IMHO, need an extra bit of 'help' (af
few others support that opionon too.), due to the fact that they lack the
hideously large Reactions and extra armor of the Bug spirits. In MY GAMES
the practice of using TR=F hasn't created an overpowering effect
considering that depending on which characters are in play, 1/2 to 2/3 are
magic users, rather it's been a balancing effect.

Finally, I wouldn't consider the villians 'equal' just because their TR's
are 'equal'. The TR is an NPC analogy to a PC's dice pools. It doesn't
actually mean 'level of threat to the PC's' (although SRII 'suggests' this
as one of many ways to assign them, on pg 187) it's merely a simple way to
incorporate the effect of dice pools to put the NPC's at an appropriate
level of skill or ferocity. In some cases I have fluctuated the TR's
mid-combat to keep control over the situation (a little lower here, a
little higher there..).

Also, I only use TR dice in a situation where a PC could use dice pools,
thus they would NOT be a factor in any banishing tests (they are straight
conjuring versus force & force versus magic tests, no pool allowed..).

In conclusion Threat Ratings are not Canon Law, just about everywhere you
see them, your bound to see the word "suggested" right in front of them.
They are ways to 'tweak' the NPC to the appropriate level of difficulty
that your situation requires. And again, this is YOUR game, you use what
works for YOU.

~Tim

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