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Message no. 1
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:09:16 +0200
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:09:13 +0200 (MET DST)

> > Here's a silly question....
> > I posted this one to the list almost a year ago, but let's let the
(relatively)
> > new people have a crack at it.... My roommate asked me about a year ago a
> > question which, although interesting, I didn't gratify with a response.
Since
> > Nature spirits disappear at sunrise or sunset, If you conjure one in the far
> > north (i.e. Alaska), where the sun rises or sets infrequently, do they hang
> > around for six months? ;-P
> Yup...but what happens when you take a spirit on a flight that goes
> faster than the sunrise?
> Does it wink out as you fly into yesterday? :)

O.K. - now what about this one:

If you summon a nature spirit and make it a great form it may leave
it's domain, right ? So what if you make a little astral trip to the
other side of the world (passing the timezones and of course dawn or
sunset) - would the spirit pass out ??? Sounds bad, so I would think
the spirit passes out as soon as there is dawn/sunset where he was
SUMMONED (spirits have some kind of link to the place where they were
summoned - so this sounds practical). So what about just going to the
north pole, summoning a nature spirit, making it a great form and then
taking it with you wherever you want to go. That spirit would last up
to 6 months then - isn't that cool ? *grin*

Does anyone know how the days exactly go there ? I think there is some
time in between the "long summer day" and the "long winter day" where
they have change of day and night together with the rest of the world.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 2
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:47:22 +0100
Hi there
Since the folloing posting was for the "NEW PEOPLE" (and I'm new),
here is what I think about it.
By the way, call me Ingmar (yep, im a 'Kraut';-)))))))

On friday, 22 Sep 1995 George wrote :

> So what about just going to the
> north pole, summoning a nature spirit, making it a great form and then
> taking it with you wherever you want to go. That spirit would last up
> to 6 months then - isn't that cool ? *grin*
>
> Does anyone know how the days exactly go there ? I think there is some
> time in between the "long summer day" and the "long winter day"
where
> they have change of day and night together with the rest of the world.
>
> Bye...
> Georg

If I were confronted with this *literal* interpretation of the rules by a
player, I would let the spirit hang around for 6 month if the player wishes,
but start to roleplay the spirit, eg. annoying the player with questions,
asking for things it/he could do, offering secrets for services, popping in
at the wrong time with something stupid, trying to break free frequently,
developing a nasty habbit and the like. By the way, what sense would it make
to have a spirit hang around for month without asking it/him for services,
witch run out real fast the powerfull the spirit was summoned.

Salve
Ingmar
--
Message no. 3
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:05:38 +0100
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:05:35 +0100 (MET)

> If I were confronted with this *literal* interpretation of the rules by a
> player, I would let the spirit hang around for 6 month if the player wishes,
> but start to roleplay the spirit, eg. annoying the player with questions,
> asking for things it/he could do, offering secrets for services, popping in
> at the wrong time with something stupid, trying to break free frequently,
> developing a nasty habbit and the like. By the way, what sense would it make
> to have a spirit hang around for month without asking it/him for services,
> witch run out real fast the powerfull the spirit was summoned.

Come on - this is what comes out of the butt-end of a bull. Nature
Spirits are LOYAL. They THINK before doing what you told them how you
probably meant it (and they are intelligent). Unlike Elementals which
don't like their summoner the Nature Spirits like doing stuff for the
Shaman.
And NO spirit will ever do something that violates it's orders - as
long as the order is "stay in the metaplanes until I call you" it
won't appear and it will definitely NEVER do anything without being
ordered (it would defend itself if attacked, but that's all).

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:45:34 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
> Come on - this is what comes out of the butt-end of a bull. Nature
> Spirits are LOYAL. They THINK before doing what you told them how you
> probably meant it (and they are intelligent). Unlike Elementals which
> don't like their summoner the Nature Spirits like doing stuff for the
> Shaman.

Hold on a sec... Nature spirits aren't necessarily loyal. Nor need they be
intelligent. You've got this idea that the spirit has to like the summoner,
but that's not the case. Take a spirit summoned in the Barrens. It's likely
to be quite bitter and resentful. Also, a spirit is only as intelligent as
it's force.

As for elementals, they don't have to "hate" their summoner. They too can
be quite intelligent, and quite loyal. The key thing here is how the
summoner treats the spirit. If they don't abuse their position of power,
then they may earn the trust and respect of the spirits. Which really
doesn't mean much unless they get free, in which case they may not come
around to kick your ass...

> And NO spirit will ever do something that violates it's orders - as
> long as the order is "stay in the metaplanes until I call you" it
> won't appear and it will definitely NEVER do anything without being
> ordered (it would defend itself if attacked, but that's all).

That's not an order... You can't send a nature spirit to the metaplanes
(that's dismissing it, and end's the spirits service to you), and it is
just putting an elemental on hold. But you're right, spirits CAN'T violate
their orders. Bt they can't try to interperet them to see if they are
behaving according to the spirit of the order. At best, they can follow
them a bit loosely, or use intelligence to determine a good way to follow
the order.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 5
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:21:34 +0100
}
}As for elementals, they don't have to "hate" their summoner. They too can
}be quite intelligent, and quite loyal. The key thing here is how the
}summoner treats the spirit. If they don't abuse their position of power,
}then they may earn the trust and respect of the spirits. Which really
}doesn't mean much unless they get free, in which case they may not come
}around to kick your ass...
}
True, in our campaign our mage summoned a Force 10 Fire-
elemental called 'Biff'. (Phoenix named it). Our mage used to have
hourlong conversations with this fire-elemental and even introducted
it to a free fire-elemental that guarded his society. Eventually he
had to use it to chase away a free air-elemental, it also had long
converstaions with him. In the end Biff tried to remain on his plain
and failed. But using low level fire-elementals as messengers, our
mage has decided to draw part of biff elemental force into this plain
as an ally. Heaven help us all.

As the elementals knowledge is based on his force, I would assume
that the low level ones are simply 'brutes'. The high force ones have
their own agendas, but the really dangerous short term elmentals are
to mid ranged ones..



Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 6
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:03:57 +0100
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:05:35 +0100 (MET)
>
> > If I were confronted with this *literal* interpretation of the rules by a
> > player, I would let the spirit hang around for 6 month if the player wishes,
> > but start to roleplay the spirit, eg. annoying the player with questions,
> > asking for things it/he could do, offering secrets for services, popping in
> > at the wrong time with something stupid, trying to break free frequently,
> > developing a nasty habbit and the like.
>
> Come on - this is what comes out of the butt-end of a bull. Nature
> Spirits are LOYAL. They THINK before doing what you told them how you
> probably meant it (and they are intelligent). Unlike Elementals which
> don't like their summoner the Nature Spirits like doing stuff for the
> Shaman.

As long as they are treated accordingly. If the Shaman put the screws on
the Spirit, the Spirit will sure as sleep is short put the screws on the
Shaman. This is at least how the deal is done in my gaming group, so the
more powerful the spirits, the more powerful their personality, and the
greater reverence is awarded them - having a force 8 mad at me is not my
utmost preference. You might say, respect goes both ways.

--
Regards,

Silhouette

___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Frank Mercury, Queen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:53:37 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
> Georg Greve wrote:
> > Come on - this is what comes out of the butt-end of a bull. Nature
> > Spirits are LOYAL. They THINK before doing what you told them how you
> > probably meant it (and they are intelligent). Unlike Elementals which
> > don't like their summoner the Nature Spirits like doing stuff for the
> > Shaman.
>
> Hold on a sec... Nature spirits aren't necessarily loyal. Nor need they be
> intelligent. You've got this idea that the spirit has to like the summoner,
> but that's not the case. Take a spirit summoned in the Barrens. It's likely
> to be quite bitter and resentful. Also, a spirit is only as intelligent as
> it's force.

Yes, but George is at leat partailly right. Nature spirits called by
shamans are considered allies that want to help the shaman out. The
shaman doesnt force the spirits to help him they actually do him a favour.
Nature spirits do get an intelligence rating analogous to their force
they however (even the dumb ones) have a totally different philosophy than
elementals. An elemental no matter how intelligent it is it will always
have a more bruttish outlook.

> As for elementals, they don't have to "hate" their summoner. They too can
> be quite intelligent, and quite loyal. The key thing here is how the
> summoner treats the spirit. If they don't abuse their position of power,
> then they may earn the trust and respect of the spirits. Which really
> doesn't mean much unless they get free, in which case they may not come
> around to kick your ass...

You are right, and individual elementals will also have individual
traits, but they will most of the time act more to-the-point than
spirits. That however does not mean that you dont get any hardassed
nature spirits :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 07:06:38 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> Yes, but George is at leat partailly right. Nature spirits called by
> shamans are considered allies that want to help the shaman out. The
> shaman doesnt force the spirits to help him they actually do him a favour.

Opinion... the shaman isn't always acting in the best interests of the
spirit, so the spirit isn't always doing him a favour. Heck, that's what
conjuration is ABOUT... forcing the spirit to do what you want.

> Nature spirits do get an intelligence rating analogous to their force
> they however (even the dumb ones) have a totally different philosophy than
> elementals. An elemental no matter how intelligent it is it will always
> have a more bruttish outlook.

No, I can't say that's the case... take that free air elemental in "2XS".
Hardly brutish at all. Or what about the elementals in the Bug City novel?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 9
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:58:40 +0100
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:58:37 +0100 (MET)

> Opinion... the shaman isn't always acting in the best interests of the
> spirit, so the spirit isn't always doing him a favour. Heck, that's what
> conjuration is ABOUT... forcing the spirit to do what you want.

>>>>>[No, it's what being a hermetic nerd is all about. If you are a
shaman you ASK the spirit to do things and the spirit is pleased to
help you. Only hermetic mages try to enslave the nature !]<<<<<
- Night Prowler <09:57:37/10-06-95>
Message no. 10
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:59:48 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > Yes, but George is at leat partailly right. Nature spirits called by
> > shamans are considered allies that want to help the shaman out. The
> > shaman doesnt force the spirits to help him they actually do him a favour.
>
> Opinion... the shaman isn't always acting in the best interests of the
> spirit, so the spirit isn't always doing him a favour. Heck, that's what
> conjuration is ABOUT... forcing the spirit to do what you want.

From a hermetic point of view, not a shamanic. I think that this is very
imporatant as very few players playing shamans actually roleplay the "use"
of spirits as they should.

> > Nature spirits do get an intelligence rating analogous to their force
> > they however (even the dumb ones) have a totally different philosophy than
> > elementals. An elemental no matter how intelligent it is it will always
> > have a more bruttish outlook.
>
> No, I can't say that's the case... take that free air elemental in "2XS".
> Hardly brutish at all. Or what about the elementals in the Bug City novel?

Free spirits a totally different, as for the elementals in Burning Bright,
well the fire elemental was very brutish and the small one (was it an air
one) was pretty gung-ho too, the third one was a bit different but I wouldnt
exactly describe it as wise.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 11
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Spirit vanishing (was: Low-Range Ears.)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:31:05 +0100
> >>>>>[No, it's what being a hermetic nerd is all about. If you are a
> shaman you ASK the spirit to do things and the spirit is pleased to
> help you. Only hermetic mages try to enslave the nature !]<<<<<
> - Night Prowler <09:57:37/10-06-95>
Err... you sure? Always? Hm...
Sascha

Further Reading

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