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Message no. 1
From: Carsten Gehling carsten@**********.dk
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 07:44:15 +0200
> That's because it's a smart virus, Arclight. Only dumb
> viruses kill their hosts. Stops them mutating and
> replicating.

No. Smart viruses kill their hosts... But only after a week or so after
entering the system, so it had time to mutate/replicate itself onto the
world's computer.

<SPOILER>
T
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> The question is...is there a new permutation just
> waiting to get out (in 2029?) at which time it'll
> actually become an AI???

Interesting notion. :-) What really happened in '29? Was the virus actually
the first AI to enter the scene of networked computing? And maybe it wasn't
completely destroyed. Remember that an AI may be highly intelligent. Maybe
it retreated to "fight another day". Then it used some time to restructure
itself to the global networking system - the Matrix. Now it just needs a
powerful host - enter Renraku Arcology's hosts AND "wizard-help-system"
(can't remember the name).

Or maybe Renraku actually caught copy of the virus-AI back in '29 and have
used it to build their "wizard-help-system". What would the world think, if
it found out, that Renraku played with powers it could not comprehend at the
time? And still can't to be true.

- Carsten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GC 3.12: GCS/M/P d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL++ P+>++ L+ !E W+++$
N+ o K- w+++$ O- M-- V-- PGP t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G++ e++ h-- r+++ y+++
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:18:10 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Gehling <carsten@**********.dk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000 3:47 PM
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)


>> That's because it's a smart virus, Arclight. Only dumb
>> viruses kill their hosts. Stops them mutating and
>> replicating.
>
>No. Smart viruses kill their hosts... But only after a week or so after
>entering the system, so it had time to mutate/replicate itself onto the
>world's computer.
>
><SPOILER>
>T
>h
>i
>s
>
>s
>p
>o
>i
>l
>e
>r
>
>s
>p
>a
>c
>e
>
>w
>a
>s
>
>s
>p
>o
>n
>s
>o
>r
>e
>d
>
>b
>y
>
>F
>u
>c
>h
>i
>
>A
>m
>e
>r
>i
>c
>a
></SPOILER>
>
>> The question is...is there a new permutation just
>> waiting to get out (in 2029?) at which time it'll
>> actually become an AI???
>
>Interesting notion. :-) What really happened in '29? Was the virus actually
>the first AI to enter the scene of networked computing? And maybe it wasn't
>completely destroyed. Remember that an AI may be highly intelligent. Maybe
>it retreated to "fight another day". Then it used some time to restructure
>itself to the global networking system - the Matrix. Now it just needs a
>powerful host - enter Renraku Arcology's hosts AND "wizard-help-system"
>(can't remember the name).
>
>Or maybe Renraku actually caught copy of the virus-AI back in '29 and have
>used it to build their "wizard-help-system". What would the world think, if
>it found out, that Renraku played with powers it could not comprehend at
the
>time? And still can't to be true.
>
>- Carsten


OK, not quite sure why the spoilers, but a virus could achieve intelligence
as a hive mind (Obviously I'm not talking real life here). What if a large
percentage of the Black IC, based on the lethal virus, is like cells in this
super-AI's brain, and it has a vast, foggy awareness across the Matrix,
spreading every day as security tightens, and one day it decides to act...
Message no. 3
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:05:01 -0400
> >> The question is...is there a new permutation just
> >> waiting to get out (in 2029?) at which time it'll
> >> actually become an AI???
> >
> >Interesting notion. :-) What really happened in '29? Was the virus
actually
> >the first AI to enter the scene of networked computing? And maybe it
wasn't
> >completely destroyed. Remember that an AI may be highly intelligent.
Maybe
> >it retreated to "fight another day". Then it used some time to
restructure
> >itself to the global networking system - the Matrix. Now it just needs a
> >powerful host - enter Renraku Arcology's hosts AND "wizard-help-system"
> >(can't remember the name).
> >
> >Or maybe Renraku actually caught copy of the virus-AI back in '29 and
have
> >used it to build their "wizard-help-system". What would the world
think,
if
> >it found out, that Renraku played with powers it could not comprehend at
> the
> >time? And still can't to be true.

> OK, not quite sure why the spoilers, but a virus could achieve
intelligence
> as a hive mind (Obviously I'm not talking real life here). What if a large
> percentage of the Black IC, based on the lethal virus, is like cells in
this
> super-AI's brain, and it has a vast, foggy awareness across the Matrix,
> spreading every day as security tightens, and one day it decides to act...

Actually, if someone really knew what they were doing, it would probably be
possible in real life to write an Internet worm that eventually would become
self aware. Of course, it would have to be specifically designed with this
in mind. I don't think it really makes sense to say that some kind of IC
(which in my understanding is fairly dumb) would achieve the same result.
For one thing, why would black IC be designed to talk to IC outside of it's
own system?

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
fnord
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Message no. 4
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:13:42 -0400
--Boundary_(ID_wmIxpOWjFgZNFlNFSsvTyQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Edward Huyer wrote:

> Actually, if someone really knew what they were doing, it would probably be
> possible in real life to write an Internet worm that eventually would become
> self aware. Of course, it would have to be specifically designed with this
> in mind. I don't think it really makes sense to say that some kind of IC
> (which in my understanding is fairly dumb) would achieve the same result.
> For one thing, why would black IC be designed to talk to IC outside of it's
> own system?
>
>

Ed!! I thought we were keeping that project a secret. :) But it's an interesting
idea. Create a worm that, in addition to being a virus, also sticks a small
program on the hard drive that, on a given date, requests information from a
central server. That information would be the object code for a node of a neural
net. Once all the 'seeds' have awakened, the central server becomes active, and
the 'net wakes up. And all of you, right now, forget that it was me who posted
this message. . . :)

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**


--Boundary_(ID_wmIxpOWjFgZNFlNFSsvTyQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Edward Huyer wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Actually, if someone really knew what they were doing,
it would probably be
<br>possible in real life to write an Internet worm that eventually would
become
<br>self aware.&nbsp; Of course, it would have to be specifically designed
with this
<br>in mind.&nbsp; I don't think it really makes sense to say that some
kind of IC
<br>(which in my understanding is fairly dumb) would achieve the same result.
<br>For one thing, why would black IC be designed to talk to IC outside
of it's
<br>own system?
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
Ed!! I thought we were keeping that project a <i>secret</i>. :) But it's
an interesting idea. Create a worm that, in addition to being a virus,
also sticks a small program on the hard drive that, on a given date, requests
information from a central server. That information would be the object
code for a node of a neural net. Once all the 'seeds' have awakened, the
central server becomes active, and the 'net wakes up. And all of you, right
now, forget that it was <i>me</i> who posted this message. . . :)
<p>--
<br>NaCl(aq)
<br>-------------
<br>GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+
DI+++ G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_wmIxpOWjFgZNFlNFSsvTyQ)--
Message no. 5
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 8 May 2000, Edward Huyer wrote:

> Actually, if someone really knew what they were doing, it would probably be
> possible in real life to write an Internet worm that eventually would become
> self aware. Of course, it would have to be specifically designed with this
> in mind. I don't think it really makes sense to say that some kind of IC
> (which in my understanding is fairly dumb) would achieve the same result.
> For one thing, why would black IC be designed to talk to IC outside of it's
> own system?

As for why Black IC would be designed to talk to other computer systems,
obviously, it wouldn't be designed that way. However, Black IC is mostly
explained as being able to do what it can do, 'cause corps took what they
saw as the relevant bits of code from the Big Virus, that killed members
of Echo Mirage. Since they took the code from another program, it's
possible it does things beyond what they think, such as communicate with
other bits of itself, in other systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.
Message no. 6
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00:-)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 12:24:46 -0400
> As for why Black IC would be designed to talk to other computer systems,
> obviously, it wouldn't be designed that way. However, Black IC is mostly
> explained as being able to do what it can do, 'cause corps took what they
> saw as the relevant bits of code from the Big Virus, that killed members
> of Echo Mirage. Since they took the code from another program, it's
> possible it does things beyond what they think, such as communicate with
> other bits of itself, in other systems.

I dunno. I'm kinda sceptical. I'm not sure how valid an assumption it is
to say that the corps are still using snippets of 30-year-old code and that
they still don't understand how it works. I think that they would have
figured out how it works and written their own versions by now. But I'm not
fully familiar with the SR universe, and this wouldn't be the first thing
that didn't entirely make sense.

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
fnord
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Message no. 7
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00:-)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
<snip> I'm kinda sceptical. I'm not sure how
> valid an assumption it is
> to say that the corps are still using snippets of
> 30-year-old code and that
> they still don't understand how it works. I think
> that they would have
> figured out how it works and written their own
> versions by now. <snip>

Ok, isn't this why we had the Y2k bug scare? Because
people were using COBOL programs that the programmers
had never thought about using a 4 digit number instead
of a 2 digit number, because they assumed that in 30
years they would be running a new system. This is why
they had a surge in the need for COBOL programmers and
why a lot of companies switched core programs for
something that didn't utilize the ancient code and
replace it with something that is more easily
updateable. Unfortunately my company doesn't get this
idea and is actually getting new a new core program
for the company and going for COBOL they say "because
it is a time tested program language and there are
lots of people out there who know how to program in
it." Yeah, just not many of our current programmers
and all the COBOL programmers I do know, hate it.
Great ideas guys. But I believe that this gives
validation to the idea of a 30 year old language still
being in use many many years down the road. Corps are
stubborn and resist change.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 8
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00:-)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 12:41:33 -0400
> Ok, isn't this why we had the Y2k bug scare? Because
> people were using COBOL programs that the programmers
> had never thought about using a 4 digit number instead
> of a 2 digit number, because they assumed that in 30
> years they would be running a new system. This is why
> they had a surge in the need for COBOL programmers and
> why a lot of companies switched core programs for
> something that didn't utilize the ancient code and
> replace it with something that is more easily
> updateable. Unfortunately my company doesn't get this
> idea and is actually getting new a new core program
> for the company and going for COBOL they say "because
> it is a time tested program language and there are
> lots of people out there who know how to program in
> it." Yeah, just not many of our current programmers
> and all the COBOL programmers I do know, hate it.
> Great ideas guys. But I believe that this gives
> validation to the idea of a 30 year old language still
> being in use many many years down the road. Corps are
> stubborn and resist change.

Oh, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying they probably would've
reverse-engineered the code well enough by now to weed out the potentially
undesireable "features."

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
fnord
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PE(+) Y+ PGP t(+) 5 X+ R+ tv(-) b+>++++ DI(+) D++ G- e>+++ h-(!) r-- y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: SPOILER!!! Renraku Arcology (Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00:-)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 9 May 2000, Edward Huyer wrote:

> > Ok, isn't this why we had the Y2k bug scare? Because
> > people were using COBOL programs that the programmers
> > had never thought about using a 4 digit number instead
> > of a 2 digit number, because they assumed that in 30
> > years they would be running a new system. This is why
> > they had a surge in the need for COBOL programmers and
> > why a lot of companies switched core programs for
> > something that didn't utilize the ancient code and
> > replace it with something that is more easily
> > updateable. Unfortunately my company doesn't get this
> > idea and is actually getting new a new core program
> > for the company and going for COBOL they say "because
> > it is a time tested program language and there are
> > lots of people out there who know how to program in
> > it." Yeah, just not many of our current programmers
> > and all the COBOL programmers I do know, hate it.
> > Great ideas guys. But I believe that this gives
> > validation to the idea of a 30 year old language still
> > being in use many many years down the road. Corps are
> > stubborn and resist change.
>
> Oh, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying they probably would've
> reverse-engineered the code well enough by now to weed out the potentially
> undesireable "features."

There's nothing saying they didn't try. And perhaps they've fine tuned the
IC, so it's a bit more effective. But, it's possible that the
'communitcation' code is key part of the 'kill runner' part. After all,
the IC must be able to communicate with the runner's deck, directly, if
it's going to tell it to overload his system. Given the choice of not
killing invading deckers, or dropping Black IC entirely, because maybe,
just maybe, there's some hidden parts in the code they're been unable to
find out, or even some little bits that look like they do something, but
don't really seem to be doing anything. In theory, one wouldn't use
software unless they knew what it could do, but, as we so often see,
practice is something else entirely.

It may even be the the corps _know_ it's communicating with other bits of
Black IC, and don't care. Maybe that's why it's only deep inside
systems. Perhaps the corps don't want to stop using it, and are keeping it
locked up, to prevent communication. They could easily be spreading rumors
of it being 'processor intensive' or some such things. I mean, the corps
can contain anything they can't understand, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a trick, get an axe"

Further Reading

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