Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 15:14:41 -0400

Message no. 1 At 12:12 PM 5/7/98 -0600, you wrote:

>>and it was a pain in the ass too! '-2 to Power Level/ +1 Wound Level and it
>>makes the damage code of a Browning Max-Power with Firepower ammo....'
>>personally, i was very relieved when they started using 2 as the Staging
>>number for everything in SR2.
>
>
>hmm... how DOES 5D4 work as a damage code?

As I recall from the back of SR2 BBB, 5D4 would be translated as 7D. A 3L1
would become 2L.

See, the four was the staging number; instead needing two succcess to stage
something up or down, in the case of 5D4 you would need *four* successes.
What's harder to get, two successes at TN7, or four success at TN5?
Without knowning math as well as I should, but I would think it turns out
to be roughly the same (5D4 and 7D). What really threw things off was that
armor, instead of reducing the TN to resist as in SR2, instead gave you
automatic successes. So your armor jacket gave you *five* automatic
successes against anything ballistic. So with that 3L1 light pistol, the
attacker *had* to roll oodles of successes, because the target with an
armor jacket had a head start of five successes going for him. And that
didn't factor in the Body resistance or the use of the SR1 pools, which was
also different from SR2.

The reason why I didn't like it was that you had to know an extra number
for all damage and drain codes. It wasn't a huge problem, but it wasn't as
clean or as elegant as the standard staging of two for SR2. And SR1
physads with autosuccesses with melee attacks were just hell-on-wheels;
hardly anybody could beat one in melee. Of course, in SR2 physads are a
bit wimpy for my taste, so I'm hoping they will be powered up in SR3.

Erik J.

Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort Activites Director

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 15:43:02 -0400

Message no. 2 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>The reason why I didn't like it was that you had to know an extra number
>for all damage and drain codes. It wasn't a huge problem, but it wasn't as
>clean or as elegant as the standard staging of two for SR2. And SR1
>physads with autosuccesses with melee attacks were just hell-on-wheels;
>hardly anybody could beat one in melee. Of course, in SR2 physads are a
>bit wimpy for my taste, so I'm hoping they will be powered up in SR3.

I could never accept that the variable staging didn't hinder you
while it helped you. Sure a staging 4 was a bitch to save down but it was
just as much hell to stage up! What's the use in that? When 2nd edition
came out we were happy. Only the Karma Pool would later become our bane
(and we even award Karma sparingly when compared to others).

>Respected Elders Relaxation Resort Activities Director
>
>"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"

First printing hardback or 3rd printing perfect bound?
B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 15:58:07 -0500

Message no. 3 On 7 May 98 at 15:43, MC23 wrote:

> I could never accept that the variable staging didn't hinder you
> while it helped you. Sure a staging 4 was a bitch to save down but
> it was just as much hell to stage up! What's the use in that?

That brings back a memory. I friend of mine who I was trying to get
interested in Shadowrun brought up the same point. We argued forever
about that. The way I see it, is that a high staging typically
equalizes the damage at its base value. A weapon with a low staging
slides up and down more easily, so is more variable.

I still prefer the variety of variable staging, but I do understand
why they changed it.

> When 2nd edition came out we were happy. Only the Karma Pool would later
> become our bane (and we even award Karma sparingly when compared to
> others).

Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)

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From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 16:08:44 -0400

Message no. 4 MC23 wrote:
>>The reason why I didn't like it was that you had to know an extra number
>>for all damage and drain codes. It wasn't a huge problem, but it wasn't as
>>clean or as elegant as the standard staging of two for SR2. And SR1
>>physads with autosuccesses with melee attacks were just hell-on-wheels;
>>hardly anybody could beat one in melee. Of course, in SR2 physads are a
>>bit wimpy for my taste, so I'm hoping they will be powered up in SR3.
>
> I could never accept that the variable staging didn't hinder you
>while it helped you. Sure a staging 4 was a bitch to save down but it was
>just as much hell to stage up! What's the use in that? When 2nd edition

Well, if you expect to be able the hit the target, but not well,
then you want to make it as tough as possible for the target to
stage it down.

On the other hand, if you're really good you want a staging of 1,
so you can stage that sucker up so high that the target can't stage
it back down agin.

>came out we were happy. Only the Karma Pool would later become our bane
>(and we even award Karma sparingly when compared to others).

The KP rules need work. Lots of work.

James Ojaste

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 17:06:01 -0400

Message no. 5 Once upon a time, Drekhead wrote;

>Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
>I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)

With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
IMNSHO.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 16:11:13 -0500

Message no. 6 ----------
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>

> Once upon a time, Drekhead wrote;
>
> >Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
> >I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)
>
> With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
> IMNSHO.

Can someone give me a run-down on 1st ed Karma rules? I need to find a
BBlB, it seems...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn lasts
forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo the
better part of humor."
aka Ellegon, Working at making Cannon canon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are crunchy
and good with ketchup."
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-------[End Geek Code Block]-------

From:	"Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 14:10:03 -0700

Message no. 7 ----------
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: SR1 vs. SR2
> Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:06 PM
>
> Once upon a time, Drekhead wrote;
>
> >Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
> >I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)
>
> With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
> IMNSHO.
>

How did the 1st edition pools work? I don't even remember now.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 15:41:16 -0600

Message no. 8 Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman wrote:
/
/ > >Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
/ > >I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)
/ >
/ > With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
/ > IMNSHO.
/
/ How did the 1st edition pools work? I don't even remember now.

The dice pools were pretty much the same. The karma rules were
significantly different. There was no karma pool. If you wanted to
re-roll or buy a success you had to *burn* karma. If you didn't have
any karma you were out of luck, so to speak.

I've since returned to the old ways myself.

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 23:33:42 +0100

Message no. 9 And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|Can someone give me a run-down on 1st ed Karma rules? I need to find a
|BBlB, it seems...

Karma rules?
Simple.
At the end of a run you got awarded Karma.
With that Karma, you could buy skills, up attributes, learn spells or bond
foci. OR, you could save some of this karma in case of emergencies.

Spending 1 Karma point would avoid and oops, or allow a reroll of all failed
die.
Spending 2 karma would grant one auto-success. VERY usefull for making the
stabilisation roll after deadly damage.

Pools worked similarely, but the combat pool didn't exist. That replaced the
old Dodge and Defense pools (yes, pools could NOT enhance attack, only
defense, apart from astral and magic of course). Oh, and the Karma pool
didn't exist either.

There was one kind of karma. YOU decided what to spend it on or how to burn
it.
--
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
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From:	Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 19:21:41 -0400

Message no. 10 |> From: MC23
|> Sent: May 7, 1998 5:06 PM
|> Subject: Re: SR1 vs. SR2

|> With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
|> IMNSHO.

Er, excuse, but I am lost. Could you please explain your statement? Also,
if someone would be so nice as to refresh my memory and explain the
differences in karma rules between SRI and SRII?

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt

From:	Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 01:33:03 +0200

Message no. 11 >As I recall from the back of SR2 BBB, 5D4 would be translated as 7D. A 3L1
>would become 2L.

In most cases, they added staging and power to get the new power, though
not always. 5D4 would become 9D and 3L1 would become 4L (a hold out).

- Cobra.

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 19:27:37 -0400

Message no. 12 At 03:58 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> When 2nd edition came out we were happy. Only the Karma Pool would later
>> become our bane (and we even award Karma sparingly when compared to
>> others).
>
>Yes. I couldn't get him to play until SR2 came out. I didn't tell him
>I was still using SR1 Karma rules, though. :)

I still use SR1 Karma Rules also.

For those that don't know, SR1 and SR2 Karma rules are very similar. SR2
brought in that Karma Pool abomination though. Didn't exist in the old days.

See, I've usually been involved with power games, tending to play our game
a little more epic, less street-level. We also usually managed to acquire
sizable karma after a year or two. If we had a Karma Pool also, we would
be throwing massive amounts of dice with every friggin' roll.

So while we recieved sizable karma awards (a few rare occassions that were
extremely difficult mentally and combat-wise, even for power PCs ( <---heh,
a funny!) we earned something like 20 Karma each; average was 8-12), we
also were spending Karma rather freely. In some cases, we would have
spent, say, 10 Karma on rerolls and bought successes and only earn 6 Karma
at the end of the session, leaving the PC with a -4 Karma deficit for the
day. Most of that Karma would have been spent just keeping our asses alive.

And with Karma awards like that our Karma Pools would have been a
nightmare. But we were at least smart enough to have never used the
concept in the first place.

I don't know, the Karma Pool thing reminds me in some ways of the "Group
Pattern" concept from Earthdawn. It's a way to try and make the PCs an
"adventuring group" instead of a disperate group of mercenaries. And I
don't like that "group" concept in SR very much; there's no way most of the
PCs would associate with each other if it wasn't a profitable business
proposition.

Erik J.

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 03:31:32 -0400

Message no. 13 Once upon a time, Katt Freyson wrote;

>|> With my new campaign I've gone back as well. Karma Pools cannot be saved
>|> IMNSHO.
>
> Er, excuse, but I am lost. Could you please explain your statement?

Karma Pools can quickly become a seriously unbalancing part of the
game. After thinking for a while what could nicely be instituted to
control this I could find none. Bringing back the 1st edition burning
Karma rules to replace Karma Pools works just dandy for me, although I
did resist for quite some time as I would much rather play as close to
the game system as I can.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 11:51:03 +0100

Message no. 14 Jeremy \ said on 14:10/ 7 May 98...

> How did the 1st edition pools work? I don't even remember now.

Very simple: you just had "Karma," not "Karma Pool" and "Good
Karma." If
you wanted a re-roll, you spent a point of Karma, which was then gone for
good. When SRII came out, I remember seeing a lot more re-rolls than
before...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Just passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 11:51:03 +0100

Message no. 15 Erik Jameson said on 15:14/ 7 May 98...

> As I recall from the back of SR2 BBB, 5D4 would be translated as 7D. A 3L1
> would become 2L.

Not quite. Only if you're talking about critters does 5D4 become 7D, else
it'll be 9D. 3L1 becomes 3L for a critter, 4L for other causes of damage.
I've been wondering why this is so ever since I bought SRII...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Just passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Jonas Bille <dko3725@***.CYBERCITY.DK>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 12:23:20 +0200

Message no. 16 On 7 May 98 at 15:43, MC23 wrote:

> I could never accept that the variable staging didn't hinder you
> while it helped you. Sure a staging 4 was a bitch to save down but
> it was just as much hell to stage up! What's the use in that?

That brings back a memory. I friend of mine who I was trying to get
interested in Shadowrun brought up the same point. We argued forever
about that.
<snip>

Well the good thing about SR 1 was the fact that you actually had to =
make s decission
when chosing weapons. Choose a low staging weapon for soft non-armored =
target (easy to stage up and not very easy for them to stage down). Then =
when the heavyarmored sec guard approaches you got to explosives =
(stagiing +2) which makes his armor less valuable. You will not kille =
him in a single shot, but at least you get to wound him.

Understanding this of course requires a knowledge of SR1 armor rules as =
well.

J.Bille

From:	John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:10 -0400

Message no. 17 >Very simple: you just had "Karma," not "Karma Pool" and "Good
Karma."

>If you wanted a re-roll, you spent a point of Karma, which was then >gone
for good. When SRII came out, I remember seeing a lot more >re-rolls than
before...

I noticed this almost immediately. In SR1 I was playing a Otter Shamanic
Adept and was scrounging every point of Karma I could so that i could
stay on par with the folks I had started to play with (They had been
playing for about a year before I joined in, big gap to fill). It was
a matter of life and death for me to burn a Karma Point for a re-roll
back then, let alone 2 for an auto success. But when SR2 came out I
all of a sudden had the "Karma Pool" that first of all took away from
Karma (boo, hiss) for skills, spells, etc. but then was only good for
making re-rolls. When that's all it is there for you might as well
use it, so it became very commonplace for one or two Characters an
fight to burn one or even two KP Points for re-rolls in SR2 where as
before you would have had been lucky to see One Karma Point spent the
entire game with SR1.

I have recently started a new campaign at a very rudimentary level and have
yet to give the first Karma reward, but now that I think about it I
think I will use the SR1 Karma rules as it is less to keep track of
and won't out of balance things at a later date. BTW, the Flaw Bad
Karma I almost see as a Merit. It will hinder you to begin with but
at a later date you will still have a big enough pool to draw on, but
will have had more Karma to spend on other things. I just have a hard
time seeing it in another light.

Jester

From:	Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Fri, 8 May 1998 20:17:06 -0500

Message no. 18 >
> Re: SR1 vs. SR2 (Erik Jameson , Thu 18:27)

> I don't know, the Karma Pool thing reminds me in some ways of the "Group
> Pattern" concept from Earthdawn. It's a way to try and make the PCs an
> "adventuring group" instead of a disperate group of mercenaries. And I
> don't like that "group" concept in SR very much; there's no way most of the
> PCs would associate with each other if it wasn't a profitable business
> proposition.
>

Truth is, there's no way I'd do what a shadowrunner does as a profit
only proposition with like-minded folks, even given the means and
opportunity. I'd need a LOT of faith in my "team", beyond thier profit
motive, which likely would involve screwing me.
Our team aims towards "hooder" runs, although th need for cash disrupts
that (not that "'hoodin" don't pay), but the fact that we all owe each
other a lot (besides stright montary gain), I think, keeps things
going. This was true even beforea "team karma pool" was formed.
On a player level, we all rather hate back stabing games (yet play
VampLarp, go figure), so its avoided unless there are VERY good reasons
for it.

-Mongoose

From:	Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Sun, 10 May 1998 14:41:55 -0500

Message no. 19 On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jonas Bille wrote:

> (easy to stage up and not very easy for them to stage down). Then when
>the heavyarmored sec guard approaches you got to explosives (stagiing +2)
>which makes his armor less valuable. You will not kille him in a single
>

Whoa waitaminute. How did explosives work in SRI?

From:	Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Sun, 10 May 1998 14:45:29 -0500

Message no. 20 On Fri, 8 May 1998, MC23 wrote:

> Karma Pools can quickly become a seriously unbalancing part of the
> game. After thinking for a while what could nicely be instituted to
> control this I could find none. Bringing back the 1st edition burning
> Karma rules to replace Karma Pools works just dandy for me, although I
> did resist for quite some time as I would much rather play as close to
> the game system as I can.
>

I don't know. I strike a balance by only awarding into KP if they make
10 or more points of good karma--the BBlkB says 10%. So they have to make
a _really_ good run to get any KP at all. ('cause I _never_ give more than
8 pts of karma... seldom that, 'cept for extreme character development.)

'Course, I don't bother with team karma pools, either...

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Sun, 10 May 1998 16:24:33 -0400

Message no. 21 Once upon a time, Jonathan Andrews wrote;

>On Fri, 8 May 1998, MC23 wrote:
>
>> Karma Pools can quickly become a seriously unbalancing part of the
>> game. After thinking for a while what could nicely be instituted to
>> control this I could find none. Bringing back the 1st edition burning
>> Karma rules to replace Karma Pools works just dandy for me, although I
>> did resist for quite some time as I would much rather play as close to
>> the game system as I can.
>>
>
>I don't know. I strike a balance by only awarding into KP if they make
>10 or more points of good karma--the BBlkB says 10%. So they have to make
>a _really_ good run to get any KP at all. ('cause I _never_ give more than
>8 pts of karma... seldom that, 'cept for extreme character development.)
>
>'Course, I don't bother with team karma pools, either...

It's Karma earned not just earned at one time. While what you do is a
good check on Karma Pool awards you might as well have Karma Pool awards
a separate thing entirely from Good Karma. Of course then you lose any
sense of comparative balance as characters are rewarded for two separate
categories. I still say it's better to trash the whole thing and go back
to first edition rules.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 11:06:41 +0100

Message no. 22 Jonathan Andrews said on 14:41/10 May 98...

> Whoa waitaminute. How did explosives work in SRI?

Explosive ammo for firearms, you mean? They added 2 to the weapon's
Staging, making the damage a lot harder to get rid of. In SRII the ammo
was severely weakened, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 14:05:03 +0100

Message no. 23 And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Jonathan Andrews said on 14:41/10 May 98...
|
|> Whoa waitaminute. How did explosives work in SRI?
|
|Explosive ammo for firearms, you mean? They added 2 to the weapon's
|Staging, making the damage a lot harder to get rid of. In SRII the ammo
|was severely weakened, IMHO.

I think he was asking how *explosives* work.
Grenades, C12, etc....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 10:14:55 -0500

Message no. 24 On Sun, 10 May 1998, MC23 wrote:

> >I don't know. I strike a balance by only awarding into KP if they make
> >10 or more points of good karma--the BBlkB says 10%. So they have to make
> >a _really_ good run to get any KP at all. ('cause I _never_ give more than
> >8 pts of karma... seldom that, 'cept for extreme character development.)
>
> It's Karma earned not just earned at one time. While what you do is a
> good check on Karma Pool awards you might as well have Karma Pool awards
> a separate thing entirely from Good Karma. Of course then you lose any
> sense of comparative balance as characters are rewarded for two separate
> categories. I still say it's better to trash the whole thing and go back
> to first edition rules.
>

Well, yeah, I see what you mean (and am inclined towards it myself if I
think about it too hard). The way I see it, though, Karma Pool should
reflect something _really_ major in the character's life. A free reroll
is NOT something my characters come by naturally; they have to fight
_bigtime_ for it. And so, when they go off and save the universe or
something, then the universe breaks down and says, "Well, sure. Why not?
He's earned it." IMHO, just peeling off the top of cumulative karma awards
is a bit unrealistic and more than a little unbalancing. And *since* the
rules per se are a little ambiguous on the matter--they never SAY you have
to take it cumulatively, I figure it's "close enough".

The whole world would agree with me if they really thought about
it,

Jonathan Andrews

From:	Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 11:19:46 -0500

Message no. 25 On Mon, 11 May 1998, Spike wrote:

> And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
> |
> |Jonathan Andrews said on 14:41/10 May 98...
> |
> |> Whoa waitaminute. How did explosives work in SRI?
> |
> |Explosive ammo for firearms, you mean? They added 2 to the weapon's
> |Staging, making the damage a lot harder to get rid of. In SRII the ammo
> |was severely weakened, IMHO.
>
> I think he was asking how *explosives* work.
> Grenades, C12, etc....
>

No no. Gurth got me; I was referencing a comment of his about ammo. That's
all I needed to know. (We just had an explosives discussion and I know
Gurth is the man on explosives already! grin)

Jonathan Andrews

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 10:30:05 -0600

Message no. 26 / On Sun, 10 May 1998, MC23 wrote:
/
/ > It's Karma earned not just earned at one time. While what you do is a
/ > good check on Karma Pool awards you might as well have Karma Pool awards
/ > a separate thing entirely from Good Karma. Of course then you lose any
/ > sense of comparative balance as characters are rewarded for two separate
/ > categories. I still say it's better to trash the whole thing and go back
/ > to first edition rules.

The mechanic Star Wars uses for Force points could be applied.

If you use it under stressful conditions (combat), you get it back at
the end of the adventure (or during a break in the adventure).

If you use it and produce a *spectacular* scinimatic effect (GMs
judgement) you get it back, plus an extra point at the end of the
adventure.

If you use it frivolously (GMs judgement) it's gone.

If you use it for evil (GMs judgement) you lose it and get a dark
point.

This puts the ammount of karma pool under the GM's strict control.

But, what works for Star Wars may not work for SR <shrug>.

-David
--
Of all the pleasures of life, I think I like nit-picking the best!
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 13:02:26 -0400

Message no. 27 Once upon a time, David Buehrer wrote;

>/ On Sun, 10 May 1998, MC23 wrote:
>/
>/ > It's Karma earned not just earned at one time. While what you do is a
>/ > good check on Karma Pool awards you might as well have Karma Pool =
awards
>/ > a separate thing entirely from Good Karma. Of course then you lose any
>/ > sense of comparative balance as characters are rewarded for two =
separate
>/ > categories. I still say it's better to trash the whole thing and go =
back
>/ > to first edition rules.
>
>The mechanic Star Wars uses for Force points could be applied.
>
>If you use it under stressful conditions (combat), you get it back at
>the end of the adventure (or during a break in the adventure).
>
>If you use it and produce a *spectacular* cinematic effect (GMs
>judgment) you get it back, plus an extra point at the end of the
>adventure.
>
>If you use it frivolously (GMs judgment) it's gone.
>
>If you use it for evil (GMs judgment) you lose it and get a dark
>point.

Dark Karma?
Beware the dark side of the Karma.

>This puts the amount of karma pool under the GM's strict control.
>
>But, what works for Star Wars may not work for SR <shrug>.

My view of Karma is more amoral than than. Regular karma awards are =
already under great interpretation, all we need now is another one to =
be abused. I've never realized how generous other games are with =
Karma. I still say mine maintains more control even if it is way =
below this lists average.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><=
><>

"THAT¹S NOT FAIR!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth

I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 13:05:42 -0400

Message no. 28 Once upon a time, Jonathan Andrews wrote;

> The whole world would agree with me if they really thought about it

And the world will agree with me once I subjugate them to my will!

<heavy breathing under mask>
Join me ShadowRN, it is your destiny!
</heavy breathing under mask>

-MC23, who just revealed his plan to take over the world-

From:	Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 17:16:55 GMT

Message no. 29 > My view of Karma is more amoral than than. Regular karma awards are already
> under great interpretation, all we need now is another one to be abused.
> I've never realized how generous other games are with Karma. I still say
> mine maintains more control even if it is way below this lists average.

In my campaign Karma is 100% amoral. Otherwise, I run it by the book.
Players generall burn enough karma they'll never have pools of more than 3-4
karma. Amassing huge karma pools isn't really a problem unless you let it grow
into one. The players *was* extremely attached to their karma... took deadly
wounds instead of burning a point or two to dodge or get 'just' serious.
That has changed, which is good, IMO.

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 11:47:30 -0600

Message no. 30 MC23 wrote:
/
/ Once upon a time, Jonathan Andrews wrote;
/
/ > The whole world would agree with me if they really thought about it
/
/ And the world will agree with me once I subjugate them to my will!
/
/ <heavy breathing under mask>
/ Join me ShadowRN, it is your destiny!
/ </heavy breathing under mask>
/
/ -MC23, who just revealed his plan to take over the world-

Eeyor, as The Brain, as Dark Helmet ;)

-David
--
Of all the pleasures of life, I think I like nit-picking the best!
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 20:10:36 +0100

Message no. 31 Jonathan Andrews said on 11:19/11 May 98...

> No no. Gurth got me; I was referencing a comment of his about ammo. That's
> all I needed to know. (We just had an explosives discussion and I know
> Gurth is the man on explosives already! grin)

I am? That's news to me... The closest I've ever gotten to explosives is
lighting a bagful of fireworks in the early hours of every new year. Most
of the knowledge I've got of RL explosives comes from reading about it in
books and game-related mailing lists.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1998 20:10:36 +0100

Message no. 32 Spike said on 14:05/11 May 98...

> |> Whoa waitaminute. How did explosives work in SRI?
[snip]
>
> I think he was asking how *explosives* work.
> Grenades, C12, etc....

I think he wasn't, based on the original message and Jonathan's reply to
my reply which was made, for some reason, as a private message.

And for those who wonder how explosives like grenades worked in SR1: the
answer is: the same as in SRII.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1998 08:41:14 +1000

Message no. 33 > If you use it for evil (GMs judgement) you lose it and get a dark
> point.

Argh.. this puts me in mind of the Bad Karma Debates... help!

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2]
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1998 12:30:06 +0100

Message no. 34 And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Once upon a time, David Buehrer wrote;
|>If you use it frivolously (GMs judgment) it's gone.
|>
|>If you use it for evil (GMs judgment) you lose it and get a dark
|>point.
|
| Dark Karma?
|Beware the dark side of the Karma.

Well.... Come to think of it, Bad Karma was one of the rules in ShRI...
Basically, it allowed you to burn 2 karma, and instead of augmenting your
successes by adding an auto, you could cancel a success from your opponent.

Say, he jumps off a building fairly confident he can catch that phone line.
He rolls, gets two successes, you see this, realise that if he makes it
he'll be back and use 4 or yours to cancel his.

He then misses and then goes splat.

He could use his Karma to counter the effect however, which then turns into
a sort of karmic auction....

:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: SR1 vs. SR2
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1998 07:17:57 -0600

Message no. 35 Lady Jestyr wrote:
/
/ > If you use it for evil (GMs judgement) you lose it and get a dark
/ > point.
/
/ Argh.. this puts me in mind of the Bad Karma Debates... help!

That's why I added the "GMs judgement" clause. It could work fine,
as long as the GM let's his players know what his definition of
"evil" is, and stays consistent with his rulings.

-David
--
Of all the pleasures of life, I think I like nit-picking the best!
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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