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From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:58:40 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 1 At 01:41 AM 6/18/96 -0500, Thomas wrote:

>A mage is astrally projecting to a place where he decides he wants to become
>visible on the physical plane. When the mage becomes visible, what does he
>look like? A solid version of his idealized image? A transparent image? A
>glowing "I'm a living object in astral space" image?

I'd say a "manifesting" mage is pretty obvious; he looks like a ghost.
Never considered if his appearance would reflect his idealized self, but I'd
have to say he looks like his physical self.

>What I'm trying to get is some idea of how bystanders and passersby would
>react to or how they would notice the mage. Things like a glowing aura or a
>bright as living-thing-in-astral-space would be rather easy to spot [out of
>the corner of your eye] or tell that it's a visible astral mage. A
>shimmering glow or a slight transparent effect would be harder to tell, and
>a casual observer might think that it's just a normal person standing there.

Most mundanes in my campaign would think he's a ghost, while more informed
ones (like mages and fellow team members) would realize what was going on.

>Thermographic vision wouldn't be able to spot a visible astral mage, would
>it? I'm thinking no heat signature to stand out from the surrounding area.

No thermo, just like with true form bugs and most other spirits, I reckon,
except for the obvious.

>Thoughts? Comments? Grounding through elves?

Ground Elves make great fertilizer. All that back to nature stuff, you know...

This issue came up when I ran my players thru a certain adventure in which
they were trying to help a dragon with amnesia. The NPC mage at one point
went astral and manifested at their car and triggered car bomb connected to
"the clapper" after warning them to quit being so nosy...

Anyhow, we all decided that a "manifesting" mage is to treated like a
manifested watcher for the most part. Killing hands worked against them, as
did the manaball (I think) a PC cast at her. It's been awhile, but I think
we decided that the spell would affect her because she was visible, the
manaball would create a disruptive effect in Astral space around her, and
because two Astrally projecting mages can cast spells at each other.

I'd allow magical weapons (including Killing Hands) to work because they are
dual-natured.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:09:20 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 2 At 06:55 AM 6/18/96 -0400, Jeff Perrin wrote:

>But remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for
>attacking manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested
>things especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested
>mages arent truely solid.

I don't think one could attack a "manifesting" mage because he truely
isn't manifesting the same way most spirits do. A mage already has a physical
body whereas spirits do not. I'd treat his "manifestation" as the same as a
watcher's.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:35:18 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 3 At 11:26 AM 6/18/96 -0600, David wrote:
>Mike Elkins wrote:

>|<snip adventure idea about recognizing astral mage>
>|>It would probably work best if the astral presence were male and the physical
>|>mage was female.
>|
>|Go with whatever makes the better story, but for what it is worth,
>|AFAIK, people who feel they are women trapped in a man's body are much more
>|common than people who feel they are men trapped in a woman's body. No one
>|knows why, but reverse transsexuals just don't seem to happen. I'd go for
the
>|man with a woman's astral image.
>
>I was pretty much going with the man in a woman's body as a more
>appealing story idea. Less chance that the Players would figure out what
>was going on. There's been quite a few movies that use male transsexuals
>as the bad guy (Silence of the Lambs for example) and with that amount
>of exposure I think my players would figure that out quicker. I do
>agree that it occurs much more often with men than women. But I see
>this as yet another reason to go the other way with the story. The last
>reason I have is that I think it would be much more fun for the demure
>woman (concealing her true self) to suddenly change into a dominant
>aggressive opponent in the final scene (hopefully catching the PCs
>completely off guard, "What do you mean I have to resist a Force 10
>Hellblast?!" :)

I don't know; that transsexual angle seems iffy to me. How about a Troll
mage who appears as human on the Astral Plane instead? (The mage was born
human and later goblinized, but never really accepted it). Oh yeah, give him
a Hellblast Humans spell while your at it. *evil GM grin*

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject:	SR2: Astral Projection -Reply
Date:	Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:47:05 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 4 > >>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 18/June/1996 07:26pm
>>>
I was pretty much going with the man in a woman's body as a more
apealing story idea. Less chance that the Players would figure out what
was going on. There's been quite a few movies that use male
transexuals as the bad guy (Silence of the Lambs for example)

One problem, if you rewatch the movie,

Foster "That's not true, there's no correlation in the literature between
transexuals and violence, transexuals are very passi(cut off by)

Whatshisname:"NO NO NO. " you're missing the point entirely, bill is not
a transexual, but he thinks he is....(paraphrase)

So really your person there is just really messed up.

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: SR2: Astral Projection -Reply
Date:	Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:52:01 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 5 Brian Johnson wrote:
|
|
|
|> >>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 18/June/1996 07:26pm
>>>
| I was pretty much going with the man in a woman's body as a more
| apealing story idea. Less chance that the Players would figure out what
| was going on. There's been quite a few movies that use male
| transexuals as the bad guy (Silence of the Lambs for example)
|
|One problem, if you rewatch the movie,
|
|Foster "That's not true, there's no correlation in the literature between
|transexuals and violence, transexuals are very passi(cut off by)
|
|Whatshisname:"NO NO NO. " you're missing the point entirely, bill is not
|a transexual, but he thinks he is....(paraphrase)
|
|So really your person there is just really messed up.

Okay, but it still makes for a good plot driver. Psychos are some of the
best plot drivers there are. Without the insane and confused life would be
pretty boring, just ask all my friends :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: SR2: Astral Projection -Reply
Date:	Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:13:04 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 6 At 08:52 AM 6/20/96 -0600, David B. wrote:

>Okay, but it still makes for a good plot driver. Psychos are some of the
>best plot drivers there are. Without the insane and confused life would be
>pretty boring, just ask all my friends :)

I dunno; I don't think anyone would be able to make a correlation between
someone and his astral image, especially without a high decent skill in
psychology and a good number of hours in psychoanalysis. (Used a la the
skill of the same name in Call O' Cthulu)

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: SR2: Astral Projection -Reply
Date:	Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:34:51 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 7 Ubiquitous wrote:
|
|At 08:52 AM 6/20/96 -0600, David B. wrote:
|
|>Okay, but it still makes for a good plot driver. Psychos are some of the
|>best plot drivers there are. Without the insane and confused life would be
|>pretty boring, just ask all my friends :)
|
|I dunno; I don't think anyone would be able to make a correlation between
|someone and his astral image, especially without a high decent skill in
|psychology and a good number of hours in psychoanalysis. (Used a la the
|skill of the same name in Call O' Cthulu)

You know, upon reflection, I think you're right. I think the only way
around it would be to describe the NPC as having multiple personality
disorder. One personality is the subservient, helpless mundane and the
other personality is the aggressive, mage. The subservient mundane could
hire the runners to protect her from the "mage" that's casting ritual magic
on her for no apparent reason.

I just realized that this story has already been done. Stephen
Koontz's...crap I can't remember the name. It's got a picture of a
windmill on the cover. Coldfire? His books could provide you with a lot
of great complex adventure ideas involving magic and the human psyche.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:44:37 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 8 At 12:19 AM 6/22/96 -0600, Peter wrote:
>Sascha wrote:

>>> Well you can touch but you won't do any harm. Basically as the form
>>> with a physical part has right of way hitting a manifested magician
>>> will just send the poor soul flying, won't hurt (even with a weapon
>>> focus if you don't have percept up - if you do well thats astral
>>> combat and it will, like mad) him/her but you may well really annoy
>
>Sorry. "Active weapon foci are present in astral space and can be used
against >critters or spirits that aer only present there." <SRII pg.138>

That's what Sascha said!

>>You are right... but since the magician is not manifest, he will still
>>follow the astral movement rules.
>
>Sure the mage can cover a lot of distance easily, but he is still using the
>same initiative timing as the purely physical characters. His initiative is
>determined differently, but if he is acting on 29 and the PA is acting on 30
>then the physical action will happen before the mage has a chance to move
away.
>For this reason, PA's usually get only one shot at a "visibly projecting"
mage.

That depends, but if the first hit doesn't take the "manifesting" mage down,
the mage will probally quit manifesting, making a much harder target for
the PhysAd. *grin*

>If given the chance, the best followup action for a PA who has failed to kill
>the mage with the first shot is to drop the weapon focus. Once it leaves his
>hands it beconed inactive, and is no longer present in astral space.

That's a good precautionary mesasure, but wouldn't turning it off take the same
amount of time (free action)?

>This reminds me of a question our group had about astral initiative. Does
>initiation make a mage any faster on the astral plane. We had them add their
>Initiate grade in with their astral reaction.

Yes, according to the grimoire, iniates add their grade to their astral
reaction. I noticed most people seem to forget that bit of info...

Speaking of which, how do you determine astral initiative? I noticed the main
book has an error (kinda). It states that a projecting mage's reaction is
twice his Intelligence, or something like that).

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:02:31 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 9 At 07:35 PM 6/22/96 +1000, Damion wrote:

>Actually, if you look at the Initiative rules in SRII (right near the start
>of the combat chapter - my books are a long distance away from me at the
>moment), you'll see that during a combat round _all_ astral actions, then
>_all_ matrix actions then _all_ physical actions are resolved, in that order
>(it may be matrix then astral, I'm not sure). This means that the PA
>_never_ gets a go at the astrally projecting magician, at least BTB. OTOH,
>I never use that rule, and run actions as they occur simultaneously, as it
>sounds like you do.

I was under the impression that that was the order by which simultaneous
initiatives over multiple playing fields took place, ie., if a projecting
mage, a decker, and a street sam got to move on "18", the mage would go
first, followed by the decker, and lastly by the street sam.

>I have a feeling that initiates are allowed to add their grade to their
>astral initiative, it will say in the Grimything though.

Yes, they do. They also get an Astral pool equal to their grade.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	"Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:06:39 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 10 Ubiquitous writes:

> That's a good precautionary mesasure, but wouldn't turning it off take the
> same amount of time (free action)?

Normally turning foci on or off requires a simple action. However, there is
the proviso that if a focus leaves the body of the magician using it, then
it becomes inactive (except spell locks). Since dropping an item is a free
action, then one can de-activate a focus by using a free action if one is
willing to drop it.

> Speaking of which, how do you determine astral initiative? I noticed the main
> book has an error (kinda). It states that a projecting mage's reaction is
> twice his Intelligence, or something like that).

Somewhere in the Grimything it clarifies this, and says that the SRII book
is wrong.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:17:53 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 11 At 11:22 PM 6/25/96 +0200, Sachsa wrote:
>On 25.06.96, Ubiquitous wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":

>> >See SRII, p. 126, Killing Hands, this is manifest in the rules.
>> >But KH do not affect astral presences, or you'd have to allow
>> >grounding through the PhysAd, too.
>
>> Killing Hands has an astral presence, since they are treated just like
>> weapon foci, save you can't ground spells through them.
>
>> I don't recall where, but I recall KH will work in astral combat if, for
>> example, the physad were using astral perception and attacking an
>> unmanifested spirit.

>If you mean KH have an astral presence when -and only IF- the PhysAd is
>astrally perceiving, we agree.

Definitely.

>If you want to explain to me when have the one and only thing that's
effective in >astral space AND the physical world without enabling
grounding, I disagree.
>KH are treated like weapon foci in astral foci only when the PhysAd is
>perceiving. Each kind of hands, be they killing or not, are effective vs
>non-manifest spirits when the "owner" is astrally perceiving.

Not sure... if one can't see what's going on Astrally, there'd be no reason to
try to slap something that's purely astral.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:46:13 +0200

Message no. 12 On 28.06.96, Ubiquitous wrote about "Re: [SR2] Astral Projection":
> At 11:22 PM 6/25/96 +0200, Sachsa wrote:
Whate does your mailer do with my name? Doesn't it like it? Or are you
to blame?
[snip agreed part]
> >If you want to explain to me when have the one and only
> >thing that's effective in
> >astral space AND the physical world without enabling
> >grounding, I disagree.
> >KH are treated like weapon foci in astral foci only when the PhysAd is
> >perceiving. Each kind of hands, be they killing or not, are effective vs
> >non-manifest spirits when the "owner" is astrally perceiving.
>
> Not sure... if one can't see what's going on Astrally, there'd be no reason to
> try to slap something that's purely astral.
A astrally perceiving character (as I wrote, see above) will know "what's
going on Astrally". And for the "normal" hands being effective
a) while astrally present: See SRII, p.147, Astral Combat, and
b) while not, remember that a being on the astral space can't be where
organic, living matter is, and therefore would be pushed away. Probably
without the "hitting" character even noticing.
On the other hand, if you allow KH to be effective vs astral creatures even
if the character is not astrally present, you have
1) a physical and
b) an astral component.
Keep this in mind and re-read "Attacking through a focus", SRII p.139.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:28:03 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 13 At 12:46 PM 6/28/96 +0200, Sascha wrote:

>Whate does your mailer do with my name? Doesn't it like it? Or are you
>to blame?

Oops! I've been misspelling it.

>A astrally perceiving character (as I wrote, see above) will know "what's
>going on Astrally". And for the "normal" hands being effective
>a) while astrally present: See SRII, p.147, Astral Combat, and
>b) while not, remember that a being on the astral space can't be where
> organic, living matter is, and therefore would be pushed away. Probably
> without the "hitting" character even noticing.
>On the other hand, if you allow KH to be effective vs astral creatures even
>if the character is not astrally present, you have
>1) a physical and
>b) an astral component.
>Keep this in mind and re-read "Attacking through a focus", SRII p.139.

Makes sense to me.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:44:48 -0600

Message no. 14 Ubiquitous wrote:

>
>Not sure... if one can't see what's going on Astrally, there'd be no reason=
to
>try to slap something that's purely astral.
>

As I recall this discussion started with the assumption that a mage/shaman=
was astrally projecting and physically manifesting himself to the PA. =
Another possible senarios coulld be guessing from the actions of an=
astrally percieving friand where the mage is.

Didn't one of FASA's books descrobe a cat/city spirit to be almost visible=
to the mundane characters as a shadow or shimmering in the air. This would=
indicate that "mundane" characers and dritters have a slight abiity to tell=
where purely astral creatures are. This is usually a subconcious thing=
that cause you to randomly change your cource in order to avoid runnung=
into an astral creature.

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:24:20 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 15 At 10:44 AM 6/29/96 -0600, Peter wrote:

>Didn't one of FASA's books describe a cat/city spirit to be almost visible to
>the mundane characters as a shadow or shimmering in the air. This would
>indicate that "mundane" characters and critters have a slight ability to
tell
>where purely astral creatures are. This is usually a subconscious thing that
>cause you to randomly change your course in order to avoid running into an
>astral creature.

The only one I recall was with Kyle Logan(?) getting help from a cat shaman.
I kinda liked the way he summoned spirits -- with cat toys and a small bag
of soy-fries. *grin*

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: [SR2] Astral Projection
Date:	Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:20:44 +0100

Message no. 16 Peter said on 10:44/ 29 Jun 96...

> >Didn't one of FASA's books describe a cat/city spirit to be almost visible to
> >the mundane characters as a shadow or shimmering in the air. This would
> >indicate that "mundane" characters and critters have a slight ability
to tell
> >where purely astral creatures are. This is usually a subconscious thing that
> >cause you to randomly change your course in order to avoid running into an
> >astral creature.

SRII, page 142:
"Astral Form
"In astral form, a spirit exists entirely within astral space, though it
may be noticable as a slight shimmering in th air."

And then it says to see elsewhere for how to notice this effect, which is
to roll a Perception test against a TN of (12 - Force).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Body And Soul?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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