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Message no. 1
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:40:52 -0500
At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:

>I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
>was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
>perceiving ?

TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!!! *grin*

I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.

--
If you're a necrophiliac and your love life is dead, call 1-800-RICKY.
Message no. 2
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:50:49 -0800
> At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:
>
> >I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> >was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> >perceiving ?
>
> TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!!! *grin*
>
> I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.
>
> --

Um, ahem, excuse me...wouldn't you just resolve it exactly like you would
resolve any other case where the target is astrally percieving?

(where do trolls enter into this?)

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:21:58 +0000
|
|At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:
|
|>I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
|>was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
|>perceiving ?
|
|TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!!! *grin*
|
|I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.

I'd act as if the creatures Force or Essence was the equivalent of the force
of a Focus.
If the force is defeated, the spell successfully grounds through to the
physical plane, and the creature is fragged....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:28:42 -0800
> |
> |At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:
> |
> |>I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> |>was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> |>perceiving ?
> |
> |TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!!! *grin*
> |
> |I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.
>
> I'd act as if the creatures Force or Essence was the equivalent of the force
> of a Focus.
> If the force is defeated, the spell successfully grounds through to the
> physical plane, and the creature is fragged....
> --

Don't they have rules for grounding spells through astrally percieving or projecting
magicians (after all that _is_ where all this came from anyway)....just use those!

~Tim
Message no. 5
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:13:59 -0500
At 01:50 PM 11/25/96 -0800, you wrote:
>> At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:

>> I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.
>
>Um, ahem, excuse me...wouldn't you just resolve it exactly like you would
>resolve any other case where the target is astrally perceiving?

My question is whether you treat the perceiving mage as an Force(Essence)
rated focus, do the astral combat resolution, or just resist as normal?

--
"We haven't heard language like that since our 'Crips' Mother's Day Sepcial'!"
Dick Diedrieck, "Night Stand"
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:46:13 -0800
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:

> At 01:50 PM 11/25/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >> At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:
>
> >> I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.
> >
> >Um, ahem, excuse me...wouldn't you just resolve it exactly like you would
> >resolve any other case where the target is astrally perceiving?
>
> My question is whether you treat the perceiving mage as an Force(Essence)
> rated focus, do the astral combat resolution, or just resist as normal?
>
> --

SRII doesn't explicitly say, but I would roll a standard resistance test,
if it fails, mage/dual creature takes damage, then it grounds out.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:54:51 -0800
Dual natured critters are just as vulnerable to astral attack at astrally
perceiving mages. Use the same rules.

----------
> From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
> Date: Monday, November 25, 1996 1:40 PM
>
> At 11:36 PM 11/24/96 -0600, Czar wrote:
>
> >I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> >was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> >perceiving ?
>
> TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!!! *grin*
>
> I don't see why not, but I'm not sure how one would resolve it.
>
> --
> If you're a necrophiliac and your love life is dead, call 1-800-RICKY.
Message no. 8
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:05:42 +0000
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Spike wrote:

> I'd act as if the creatures Force or Essence was the equivalent of the force
> of a Focus.
> If the force is defeated, the spell successfully grounds through to the
> physical plane, and the creature is fragged....
IMHO overcoming the foci's force is not necessary to ground out the spell,
it merely indicates whether the foci is 'unbonded' in the process. But now
taht I think about it this could be rubbish. I'll have to check my books
again. <Grumbles as memory fails him once more>

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 9
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:51:58 -0800
> From owner-shadowrn@********.ITRIBE.NET Wed Nov 27 04:52 PST 1996
> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:05:42 +0000
> From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
> Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Spike wrote:
>
> > I'd act as if the creatures Force or Essence was the equivalent of the force
> > of a Focus.
> > If the force is defeated, the spell successfully grounds through to the
> > physical plane, and the creature is fragged....

> IMHO overcoming the foci's force is not necessary to ground out the spell,
> it merely indicates whether the foci is 'unbonded' in the process. But now
> taht I think about it this could be rubbish. I'll have to check my books
> again. <Grumbles as memory fails him once more>
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
>

The way that I understand it is that the Force vs Focus-rating roll is like a
resistance test, just as you'd do for trying to ground a spell through a
percieving/projecting mage. If the mage completely resists the spell (no
damage) then it doesn't ground out, same with the focus. If the focus wins,
then the spell didn't overcome the focus's resistance and nothing happens.

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:56:59 +0000
> > IMHO overcoming the foci's force is not necessary to ground out the spell,
> > it merely indicates whether the foci is 'unbonded' in the process. But now
> > The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk

Well I admit overcoming the foci's rating is required to ground out, and
in the process the foci becomes unbonded.

For Dual Natured critters I'd do as was suggested by someone else use the
critters' Essence or Magic (whichever is higher) instead of the foci's
rating.

However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
strong.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 11
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:44:11 -0500
The Digital Mage wrote:

> > > IMHO overcoming the foci's force is not necessary to ground out the spell,
> > > it merely indicates whether the foci is 'unbonded' in the process. But now
> > > The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk

> Well I admit overcoming the foci's rating is required to ground out, and
> in the process the foci becomes unbonded.

> For Dual Natured critters I'd do as was suggested by someone else use the
> critters' Essence or Magic (whichever is higher) instead of the foci's
> rating.

> However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> strong.

I would rule that if you successfully ground through the creature, the
spell takes effect with them as a target...if it doesn't ground out,
nothing happens.

<Snip>

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 12
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:57:41 -0800
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, The Digital Mage wrote:

> > > IMHO overcoming the foci's force is not necessary to ground out the spell,
> > > it merely indicates whether the foci is 'unbonded' in the process. But now
> > > The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
>
> Well I admit overcoming the foci's rating is required to ground out, and
> in the process the foci becomes unbonded.
>
> For Dual Natured critters I'd do as was suggested by someone else use the
> critters' Essence or Magic (whichever is higher) instead of the foci's
> rating.
>
> However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> strong.

Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.

>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> "So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
> Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
>

~Tim
Message no. 13
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:46:36 +0000
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:

> > However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> > critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> > strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> > strong.
>
> Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.
Sorry, I meant over and above that. Ie a foci's bonding is broken yet it
may be undamaged by the spell. What is teh critters version of breaking
its bonding?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 14
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:53:14 -0500
The Digital Mage wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:
>
> > > However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> > > critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> > > strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> > > strong.
> >
> > Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.
> Sorry, I meant over and above that. Ie a foci's bonding is broken yet it
> may be undamaged by the spell. What is teh critters version of breaking
> its bonding?

I would rule that the only damage encountered would be the damage from
the spell. I don't think it would be right to say that the grounding
does extra damage to the critter, just because it destroys bonds with
foci...your astral presence is more personal than that.

Just my opinion.

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 15
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:38:33 -0700
> > For Dual Natured critters I'd do as was suggested by someone else use the
> > critters' Essence or Magic (whichever is higher) instead of the foci's
> > rating.
> >
> > However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> > critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> > strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> > strong.
>
> Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.

(IMO mode on)

I don't have my books handy, so I'm going from memory here. OK, here's my
take on this dual-nature thing. Being dual-natured basically means that
a creature exists both in the physical plane AND the astral plane at the
same time, right? SO, wouldn't that mean that you DON'T have to ground
through his body, in fact you CAN'T ground through his body; You would
just hit him with the spell from the astral, IN the astral, and treat the
attack like he was IN the astral. I remember reading something like
this, but I'm not sure... oh well.

(IMO mode off)

-Tom-
Message no. 16
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:20:05 -0500
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:
>
> > > For Dual Natured critters I'd do as was suggested by someone else use the
> > > critters' Essence or Magic (whichever is higher) instead of the foci's
> > > rating.
> > >
> > > However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> > > critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> > > strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> > > strong.
> >
> > Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.
>
> (IMO mode on)
>
> I don't have my books handy, so I'm going from memory here. OK, here's my
> take on this dual-nature thing. Being dual-natured basically means that
> a creature exists both in the physical plane AND the astral plane at the
> same time, right? SO, wouldn't that mean that you DON'T have to ground
> through his body, in fact you CAN'T ground through his body; You would
> just hit him with the spell from the astral, IN the astral, and treat the
> attack like he was IN the astral. I remember reading something like
> this, but I'm not sure... oh well.
>
> (IMO mode off)
>
> -Tom-

That's what grounding is, though. Being able to cast a spell at an
astral presence to have it damage their physical presense. Yes, this is
similar to spell casting on the astral, except for one thing...in
grounding an area effect spell, you can affect those around the meat
body of the being you are gounding through (I think you still have to be
in line of sight of the body to do this, but I am unsure). Whereas, if
you cast an area effect spell at an astral entity (as compared to trying
to ground out the spell) it only effects them.

Justin. :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 17
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:21:51 -0800
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, The Digital Mage wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:
>
> > > However if overcoming the foci's rating unbonds it -what happens to a live
> > > critter? Maybe the tie between the astral aura and the physical body is
> > > strained and the critter feints, maybe nothing happens as the tie is too
> > > strong.
> >
> > Simple, the critter takes the damage from the spell.
> Sorry, I meant over and above that. Ie a foci's bonding is broken yet it
> may be undamaged by the spell. What is teh critters version of breaking
> its bonding?
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk

Like I said...it takes damage.

(unlesss you want to reason that when you successfully ground through a
magician, you destroy his link to astral space..which IMHO is both
overkill and unreasonable.)

I'd just view the bond-breaking as something akin to what happens when you
hit some delicate piece of electronics with a big powersurge..it goes
*POP* and gives off a bit of smoke (and of course is henceforth useless).

If you wanted to get real technical you could work out some system of
tracking the damage that the focus takes as a result of the spell, make
some resistance tests and have the player mark off some boxes for how much
damage his focus takes...but I'd vote against that idea because my RPG
folder is thick enough already without having to add more things to my
character sheets..:)


~Tim
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:23:49 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 9:38/11 Dec 96...

> I don't have my books handy, so I'm going from memory here. OK, here's my
> take on this dual-nature thing. Being dual-natured basically means that
> a creature exists both in the physical plane AND the astral plane at the
> same time, right? SO, wouldn't that mean that you DON'T have to ground
> through his body, in fact you CAN'T ground through his body; You would
> just hit him with the spell from the astral, IN the astral, and treat the
> attack like he was IN the astral. I remember reading something like
> this, but I'm not sure... oh well.

You can ground spells through dual-natured critters (an astrally
perceiving magician is a dual-nature critter). However, for nearly all
spells there is no difference between casting the spell at the critter's
aura and grounding it into its physical body. Only physical area-effect
spells will ground out and affect people standing nearby the critter's
physical body, and even then only if the critter doesn't resist them
completely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oh wow! Oh wow! This is really, really heavy, man!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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