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Message no. 1
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:16:00 -0400 (EDT)
At 09:50 PM 9/2/96 -0500, bluewizard wrote:

>How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?

I put 'em on a diet. *grin*

Actually, I've got mixed feelings about FAT, as it introduces questions I do
not know the answers to and causes problems.

>Our teams are using the rules in Corp. Sec. Source book as is, no problems.
>However, they have also come up with some interesting ideas.
>We have a physad with astral perception that wants to carry a rod full of
>fat-bac.
>Once an astral victim is subdued, say in a fat-bac containment net - he uses
>it to beat the wizard senseless - kind of like a no karma astral weapon/mage
>blade.

Ugh, I hope none of my players ever think about doing something like this. :-(

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 2
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:50:31 -0400 (EDT)
At 05:42 PM 9/3/96 -0500, Galen wrote:

>Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
>to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
>area affect spell. But it should work,if you don't mind burnt watcher...

Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 3
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:33:12 -0500
On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:
> Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
> low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...

A small spirit shouldn't be much more of a problem than a watcher, esp.
if they use concealment on themselves.

but watcher's can't manifest? Thats a new interpretation on me; I don;t
see how else they can do some of the listed watcher abilities without it
(attack dog, bug, etc.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
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-op+ Y+>++
______ t+ 5+ j R++ G++ tv+ b+ D B--- e+ u* h! f?- r-- n+(--) y?
__\___ / Don't tease or feed the straight people SilenceÞath
\ // If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people
\ // come from? Bi, Pagan, And Proud!
\/ ListManager:death-and-pineapples@******.com
Message no. 4
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:40:02 -0700
Ubiquitous wrote:
> Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
> low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...
>

It would if it happened more than once in one of my games.."I don't
understand I never used to have elementals turn free spirit on me??""Why is
it so difficult to summon elementals anymore???" "What do you mean the
Elemental didn't show up???"

Oh yea..here is a little wrench in the works for you..If a mage is trapped in
one of these FB rooms..Can he/she still summon a watcher or
elemental/spirit??? Does the mage still have acess to those planes of
existance?? even though he/she cannot even leave the room????
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 5
From: AHayes@*******.com.au
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:48:50 +301000
granite @ gj.net wrote
> Oh yea..here is a little wrench in the works for you..If a mage is
trapped in
> one of these FB rooms..Can he/she still summon a watcher or
elemental/spirit???

Why not?

I have ruled in my games that magi can summon spirits pretty much
anywhere, though with different results based on where you are. (The only
problem I could see would be on the metaplanes, where the summoning of a
spirit (or elemental) would be a problem if that spirit/elemental wasn't
a member of the realm you were visiting.)

Summoning spirits from the Astral shouldn't be a problem, though it would
be harder to do. (Impose some penalty to the success or drain TN if you
like.) If it isn't a problem, then it shouldn't matter that your Astral
form happens to be bound by FB.

(BTW - I don't want this to mean that I support the idea of FB. I just
thought I would slip that in early. :) )

> Does the mage still have acess to those planes of existance?? even
though he/she
> cannot even leave the room????
Hmmm... does the Mage's astral form or his consciousness actually visit
the metaplanes? I believe that it is the latter as Astral quests take no
time in the "real world".

Cya.
Andrew.
Message no. 6
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:02:05 -0700
Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> At 05:42 PM 9/3/96 -0500, Galen wrote:
>
> >Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
> >something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
> >to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
> >area affect spell. But it should work,if you don't mind burnt watcher...
>
> Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
> low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...

He's right, watcher can't fully maifest...they can just do that Obi-Wan
Kanobi trick that won't creat a bridge into the physical plane.

I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
the wrong kind of people or worse...

--
@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 7
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:09:25 -0700
Galen "Marphod" Silversmith wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:
> > Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
> > low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...
>
> A small spirit shouldn't be much more of a problem than a watcher, esp.
> if they use concealment on themselves.
>
> but watcher's can't manifest? Thats a new interpretation on me; I don;t
> see how else they can do some of the listed watcher abilities without it
> (attack dog, bug, etc.)

Page 74 of Grimoire II:

"Watchers exist solely on the etheric plane in astral space. They can
never leave the etheric plane, either to manifest phsyically in the
material world or to ascend to a metaplane.

Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."

Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
like an astrally projecting mage. The attack dog task says "The watcher
is assigned to guard a place in astral space. It will only react to
intruders in astral space, and attacks the ferociously."

No, I'm not a rules lawyer. I just happened to have the Grimoire II here
on my desk opened to that page when I saw this message. ;o)


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 8
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:30:53 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:33 AM 9/4/96 -0500, Galan wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:

>> Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
>> low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...
>
>A small spirit shouldn't be much more of a problem than a watcher, esp.
>if they use concealment on themselves.

I honestly don't think a shaman would do that to a nature spirit, unless
either he were toxic or the spirit gave permission (which I highly doubt).

>but watcher's can't manifest? That's a new interpretation on me; I don't
>see how else they can do some of the listed watcher abilities without it
>(attack dog, bug, etc.)

Note that it states it can only do that to astral targets, and to perform
as an "irritant", it merely makes itself visible like a projecting mage can.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 9
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:33:55 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:40 PM 9/3/96 -0700, Granite wrote:

>Oh yea..here is a little wrench in the works for you..If a mage is trapped in
>one of these FB rooms..Can he/she still summon a watcher or
>elemental/spirit??? Does the mage still have access to those planes of
>existence?? even though he/she cannot even leave the room????

I'm not sure about watcher, but they only exist on the Astral Plane and so
won't be any help. Elementals cannot, but I've heard mixed answers about
nature spirits.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 10
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:35:18 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:02 PM 9/3/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>Ubiquitous wrote:

>I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
>the wrong kind of people or worse...

like Tutor? *evil grin*

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 11
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:43:17 -0700
Ubiquitous wrote:
> >I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
> >the wrong kind of people or worse...
>
> like Tutor? *evil grin*

I'd say that falls into the category of worse, wouldn't you. <raised
eyebrow>


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:55:03 +0100
GRANITE said on 23:40/ 3 Sep 96...

> Oh yea..here is a little wrench in the works for you..If a mage is trapped in
> one of these FB rooms..Can he/she still summon a watcher or
> elemental/spirit??? Does the mage still have acess to those planes of
> existance?? even though he/she cannot even leave the room????

No, but not for any "access to those planes of existance" reasons. You
just can't summon spirits of any kind unless you are inside your own body.
Period. (This, BTW, is from Awakenings.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:55:03 +0100
Galen \ said on 0:33/ 4 Sep 96...

> but watcher's can't manifest? Thats a new interpretation on me; I don;t
> see how else they can do some of the listed watcher abilities without it
> (attack dog, bug, etc.)

Real easy: watchers can only attck astral targets -- they exist on the
astral plane themselves, so that makes sense. As for listening to physical
conversations, so can an astrally-projecting magician. Magicians can also
semi-manifest on the physical plane (letting themselves be seen and heard,
but they cannot touch things), and so can a watcher. It's in the Grimoire,
though you have to read it carefully to pick it out :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 14
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:04:03 -0600 (MDT)
Ubiquitous wrote:
|
|At 05:42 PM 9/3/96 -0500, Galen wrote:
|
|>Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
|>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
|>to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
|>area affect spell. But it should work,if you don't mind burnt watcher...
|
|Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
|low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...

Yes, but those evil NPC mages don't seem to care <evil
grin>.

BTW, would an insect queen care if her pet shaman
tried this trick using her dual-natured soldiers for
grounding? Or would the queen just do it herself?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 15
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:59:21 -0400 (EDT)
At 10:55 AM 9/4/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>GRANITE said on 23:40/ 3 Sep 96...

>> Oh yea..here is a little wrench in the works for you..If a mage is
trapped in
>> one of these FB rooms..Can he/she still summon a watcher or
>> elemental/spirit??? Does the mage still have acess to those planes of
>> existance?? even though he/she cannot even leave the room????
>
>No, but not for any "access to those planes of existance" reasons. You
>just can't summon spirits of any kind unless you are inside your own body.
>Period. (This, BTW, is from Awakenings.)

Where?

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 16
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:27:30 -0400 (EDT)
At 10:55 AM 9/4/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Galen \ said on 17:42/ 3 Sep 96...

>> Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
>> something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
>> to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
>> area affect spell. But it should work,if you don;t mind burnt watcher...
>
>Nope. Won't work. Nice try, though.
>
>To be precise, there are two reasons:
>
>1) Watchers don't manifest. They just show themselves on the physical
>plane, but cannot touch anything there. Nature spirits and elementals can
>manifest, and physically interact with things on the physical plane.
>
>2) You cannot summon a spirit unless you are on the physical plane
>yourself. It has something to do with bridging the two planes to allow the
>spirit to do so as well.

Since watchers only exist on the astral plane, I think this requirement can
be waived.


--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 17
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:33:19 -0400 (EDT)
At 07:04 AM 9/4/96 -0600, David wrote:
>Ubiquitous wrote:

>|Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
>|low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...
>
>BTW, would an insect queen care if her pet shaman
>tried this trick using her dual-natured soldiers for
>grounding? Or would the queen just do it herself?

Insect Queen voice: I don' need to ground no STEENKING spell! My boys rip'em
to shreds!

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 18
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[2]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: 4 Sep 96 10:15:00 -0400
Ubiquitous wrote:
|
|At 05:42 PM 9/3/96 -0500, Galen wrote:
|
|>Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
|>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
|>to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
|>area affect spell. But it should work,if you don't mind burnt watcher...
|
|Since watchers cannot truly manifest, you'd have to do with a
|low force (1?) elemental spirit, but that might make bad things happen...

Yes, but those evil NPC mages don't seem to care <evil
grin>.

BTW, would an insect queen care if her pet shaman
tried this trick using her dual-natured soldiers for
grounding? Or would the queen just do it herself?

-David


It would probably depend on the totem. As we learned in the Bug City book,
it seems that the spirits work a lot like their natural counterparts. Now,
in the case of ants(or wasps for that matter), where the individuals do not
do any processing of input they probably would not care too much. After
all, what is the loss of a (minor) sensory cells mean to the greater whole
(think of it kind of like losing a few layers of skin off of your fingers)?
In the animal kingdom, as long as the queen survives, the hive will survive
so the workers and warriors are expendable.

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 19
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:35:30 -0700
Loki wrote:
> Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
> visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
> cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."
>
> Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
> like an astrally projecting mage.......

Ok..so can they be trapped by FB like an astral mage??? or Can you net one
with a FB net, and perhaps bludgeon it with a FB club??????If not why not??
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 20
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:33:56 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
>
> Loki wrote:
> > Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
> > visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
> > cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."
> >
> > Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
> > like an astrally projecting mage.......
>
> Ok..so can they be trapped by FB like an astral mage??? or Can you net one
> with a FB net, and perhaps bludgeon it with a FB club??????If not why not??

If you're going to play with FB, and you can do it to an astrally
projecting mage then I assume you could do it to a Watcher. Plus a
watcher couldn't escape to it's native meta-plane since it doesn't have
one. Why waste the FB on something as simple as a Watcher though? And if
you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 21
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:12:22 -0400 (EDT)
At 10:35 AM 9/4/96 -0700, Granite wrote:
>Loki wrote:

>> Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
>> visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
>> cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."
>>
>> Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
>> like an astrally projecting mage.......
>
>Ok..so can they be trapped by FB like an astral mage??? or Can you net one
>with a FB net, and perhaps bludgeon it with a FB club??????If not why not??

Watchers could become trapped by FB walls. As for netting one, I'm not sure,
because the nature of FB contradicts what I know. Can you use an FB club?
I'm not sure; I'm sure someone else can elaborate better than me.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 22
From: Schweiger Manuel <brown@*****.kem.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac - Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:46:28 +0200
AHayes wrote:

>Hmmm... does the Mage's astral form or his consciousness actually =
visit
>the metaplanes? I believe that it is the latter as Astral quests take =
no
>time in the "real world".

Hey chummer!
Have you forgot that you have to go directly from the physical world to =
the metaplanes? It´s not possible to project first into the Astral =
Space and then jump to the metaplanet !! :)

c ya. Manuel
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:46:20 +0100
Ubiquitous said on 9:59/ 4 Sep 96...

> >No, but not for any "access to those planes of existance" reasons. You
> >just can't summon spirits of any kind unless you are inside your own body.
> >Period. (This, BTW, is from Awakenings.)
>
> Where?

Damn, I could have sworn I read it in Awakenings somewhere... Or maybe it
was in the NAGM, anyway I can't seem to find it now when looking through
Awakenings rather quickly.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The wrong way is trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac - Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:35:49 +1100
>Hey chummer!
>Have you forgot that you have to go directly from the physical world to
>the metaplanes? It´s not possible to project first into the Astral =
Space
>and then jump to the metaplanet !! :)

Not true... Mages can go Astral, meet up, and THEN go to the =
metaplanes as a group. On the one hand, they have to face the Lurker =
by themselves. On the other hand, they don't have any way of meeting =
on the metaplanes except by this method. On the gripping hand, =
there's a glove.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" =
/_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen =
{~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( =
Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au =
()~*~()
(_)-(_) =
(_)-(_)
Message no. 25
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:36:15 +1100
>BTW, would an insect queen care if her pet shaman
>tried this trick using her dual-natured soldiers for
>grounding? Or would the queen just do it herself?

Good question... insects don't care about individuals, mainly, but they
DO care about the integrity of the hive. And an insect hive just doesn't
have all that many spirits to do this with, and even fewer True-Forms.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 26
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 10:13:12 EST
------------------------------------------------
Ubiquitous wrote:
> >I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
> >the wrong kind of people or worse...
>
> like Tutor? *evil grin*

I'd say that falls into the category of worse, wouldn't you. <raised
eyebrow>


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
-------------------------------------------------------
Who th. is Tutor??
Ferri
Message no. 27
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 12:34:21 EST
Ok, Guys, you've done it. In but a few 100's mails of discussion about FAT-bac's
you have turned me from a fat bac user to a fat bac hater, I now see just how
really really stupid the whole idea is.
So for my players on the list, rejoice, fat-bac does no longer exist, and never
will in any of my games.
-before you start hopping around in happiness, though: I hope you do realize
this does mean that I'll divide by 5 the cost of maintaining astral wards, there
must be some balance.. [so no fat walls anymore, I guess rating 15 wards will
have to do. <w>]

Ferri


--
Message no. 28
From: Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:03:55 +1000
At 11:33 4/09/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>GRANITE wrote:
>>
>> Loki wrote:
>> > Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
>> > visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
>> > cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."
>> >
>> > Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
>> > like an astrally projecting mage.......
>>
>> Ok..so can they be trapped by FB like an astral mage??? or Can you net one
>> with a FB net, and perhaps bludgeon it with a FB club??????If not why not??
>
>If you're going to play with FB, and you can do it to an astrally
>projecting mage then I assume you could do it to a Watcher. Plus a
>watcher couldn't escape to it's native meta-plane since it doesn't have
>one. Why waste the FB on something as simple as a Watcher though? And if
>you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.

Watchers don't have a meta-plane; magicians create them from elemental
astral stuff around them. Grimoire states that they can never leave the
etheric
plane, either to maifest physically in the material world or to ascend to a
metaplane. End quote.

PML

***************************************
Peter Leitch
<pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 29
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
At 10:13 AM 9/5/96 EST, Ferri wrote:
>Ubiquitous wrote:
>>Someone wrote:

>> >I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
>> >the wrong kind of people or worse...
>>
>> like Tutor? *evil grin*

>Who is Tutor??

Read Threats, heh heh.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 30
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:55:39 -0500 (EST)
>Who th. is Tutor??

Tutor is your friend!
He's here to teach you things!
Did you know that thinking about water droplets makes resisting drain
muuuuch easier?
See you learned soemthing already!
Now about my payment . . .
Message no. 31
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:37:23 -0500
At 12:34 PM 9/5/96 EST, you wrote:
>
>Ok, Guys, you've done it. In but a few 100's mails of discussion about
FAT-bac's
>you have turned me from a fat bac user to a fat bac hater, I now see just how
>really really stupid the whole idea is.

That's because everyone involved in the discussion has been mis-reading the
rules. The rule that says that no astral being cannot influence anything on
the physical plane doesn't exist. The rule is an astral being cannot
directly influence anything on the physical plane. Directly influence.

The rule everyone should be paying attention to is the rule about
non-magical living things having corporeal auras in the astral plane. As
the auras are corporeal, they cannot exist together. That blows this
"forced integration" of the net passing through the astral mage some people
were talking about.

What happens when the FAB net covers a mage is the mage's aura influences
the FAB's aura in the astral plane. The effect of this in the physical
plane is that the net appears to wrap around a gap of air. When the physad
attacks the mage with a FAB club, the club's aura hits the mage's aura. The
effect of this in the physical plane is that the club strikes something in
the air. The astral mage is not DIRECTLY influencing the physical plane, he
is INDIRECTLY influencing the physical plane. No rules are being broken.
There is no "forced integration". FAB items won't pass through astral
mages/beings.

>So for my players on the list, rejoice, fat-bac does no longer exist, and
never
>will in any of my games.
>-before you start hopping around in happiness, though: I hope you do realize
>this does mean that I'll divide by 5 the cost of maintaining astral wards,
there
>must be some balance.. [so no fat walls anymore, I guess rating 15 wards will
>have to do. <w>]

Go ahead and rethink this. FAB does work according to the rules in the SR2
black book and in the Grimoire. If anyone can find anything that says
"astral beings cannot influence anything on the physical plane", then FAB
won't work.

Didn't find it, did you?

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 32
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:56:00 -0500
>What happens when the FAB net covers a mage is the mage's aura influences
>the FAB's aura in the astral plane. The effect of this in the physical plane is that
>the net appears to wrap around a gap of air. When the physad attacks the
>mage with a FAB club, the club's aura hits the mage's aura. The effect of this in
>the physical plane is that the club strikes something in the air. The astral mage
>is not DIRECTLY influencing the physical plane, he is INDIRECTLY influencing
>the physical plane. No rules are being broken.
>There is no "forced integration". FAB items won't pass through astral
>mages/beings.

We differ on the meaning of directly influencing the physcial plane. I see it as
meaning this: An astral mage can't cast spells at non-magical objects, pick up
things, physcially hurt people, etc. He/She CAN appear visible to people on the
physical plane and communicate with them, though. He/She could appear, ask
someone to do something that affects the phsical plane and then dissapear again.
That is INDIRECTLY influencing the physcial, IMHO. Holding up a net, even
without meaning to, is DIRECTLY influencing the physical.

One rule of thumb I sometimes use, although it is not official by any means, is that
pre-awakening when the magic level was very low, it was impossible to prove
magic existed. Until someone casts spells or summons spirits to manifest
(ALMOST impossible pre-2011), no matter what is swimming out in the astral,
even if you can see it via astral perception, there is no way to prove you aren't
making it up to a mundane. Otherwise, sometime in the last 5000 years, someone
WOULD have proved magic existed. Just my opinion, but FASA seems to have a
similar mind set.

Double-DOmed Mike
Message no. 33
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:32:02 -0600 (MDT)
Faux Pas wrote:
|
|[snip] everyone involved in the discussion has been mis-reading the
|rules. The rule that says that no astral being cannot influence anything on
|the physical plane doesn't exist. The rule is an astral being cannot
|directly influence anything on the physical plane. Directly influence.
|
|The rule everyone should be paying attention to is the rule about
|non-magical living things having corporeal auras in the astral plane. As
|the auras are corporeal, they cannot exist together. That blows this
|"forced integration" of the net passing through the astral mage some people
|were talking about.
|
|What happens when the FAB net covers a mage is the mage's aura influences
|the FAB's aura in the astral plane. The effect of this in the physical
|plane is that the net appears to wrap around a gap of air. When the physad
|attacks the mage with a FAB club, the club's aura hits the mage's aura. The
|effect of this in the physical plane is that the club strikes something in
|the air. The astral mage is not DIRECTLY influencing the physical plane, he
|is INDIRECTLY influencing the physical plane. No rules are being broken.
|There is no "forced integration". FAB items won't pass through astral
|mages/beings.
|
|Go ahead and rethink this. FAB does work according to the rules in the SR2
|black book and in the Grimoire. If anyone can find anything that says
|"astral beings cannot influence anything on the physical plane", then FAB
|won't work.

So a living net can wrap itself around an astral being but
the same being cannot affect the net? IMHO, there's a
major contradiction here. In the case of the net falling
on the being the physical plane is accomodating the astral
plane, but if the being tries to affect the net (by moving
while the net is on him) the physical plane won't
accomodate the astral plane while at the same time it
allready is accomodating the astral plane? That's like
having both tea and no tea at the same time (play Infocom's
"Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" to really get that joke).

Wait a sec, check the rules again on astral travel and
FAB. I remember some comment about bacteria not affecting
astral movement and that FAB works because the bacteria are
larger than normal. Find out what happens to normal
bacteria and I think we'll have an ending to this real soon
(I would look but for the fact that they don't let me bring
my games to work :(

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 34
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:56:04 -0500 (EST)
>So a living net can wrap itself around an astral being but
>the same being cannot affect the net? IMHO, there's a
>major contradiction here. In the case of the net falling
>on the being the physical plane is accomodating the astral
>plane, but if the being tries to affect the net (by moving
>while the net is on him) the physical plane won't
>accomodate the astral plane while at the same time it
>allready is accomodating the astral plane? That's like
>having both tea and no tea at the same time (play Infocom's
>"Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" to really get that joke).

As near as I can muddle it out. Astral being cannot directly affect physical
objects because they lack mass.
Here's the explanation.
Mundanes can affect mundane objects because they share all the same
dimensions. mass, height, etc. and if you want to get technical "astral
signature" (for lack of a better word.)
Astral travellers can affect astral objects because they share the same
attributes - astral attributes.
Follow me so far?
OK, now when the laws of nature check to allow objects to interact, they
only check to see if there is an attribute missing, not if there are extra
attributes.
example - Astral mage trying to move a plant. Both have an astral aura.
However, the mage lacks physical mass, while the plant does not. Since the
actor, cannot act upon all of the actees attributes, he cannot affect the plant.
Next example - FAB net trying to trap an astral mage. Both have an astral
aura. The FAB net has mass in the material plane, while the mage does not.
Here the actor (net) can act upon all of the actees attributes, the fact
that the actor has mass does not matter to the interaction process. The net
has enough astral presence to trap the mage.
As near as I can tell, it's all a matter of who's doing what to who(m?)
If the mage is alert, and can avoid the net, the question is moot.
That's why mundanes don't regularly bump into astral presences (although
that could explain those cold chills! :-))
A net that is simply dropped over a mage IMHO will be easy for him to escape
from. If the bottom is open, he can simply move - at the speed of thought -
out from under the net, and it will fall away.
Now, if the net is fired from the net gun, chances are it will wrap around
the mage. An astral form, and an idealized manifestation of a mage's will
are not malleable things. (Oh, suddenly it's much more ideal for me to be
two inches tall so I can slip through a net! :-))
I don't buy this notion that the mage will POP through the gaps, like a
watermelon seed - How does moss or ivy prevent astral travel then? There are
always small gaps between plants.
I think FASA is playing by the rules with FAB, I just think that the rules
could use some more explaining.
One last opinion on this - We can believe that it's possible for a human to
leave his body and travel around the world as a spirit, but we can't believe
that a fat bacteria could stop him? C'mon, it's all in your head anyway. :-)
If SR was a science FICTION game then I'd probably not allow FB either, but
it's not, it's science FANTASY. Once magic comes into the game, all bets are
off. Anyhting is possible. :-)
Message no. 35
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:13:03 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
|Someone else wrote:
|
|>>What happens when the FAB net covers a mage is the mage's aura
|>influences >the FAB's aura in the astral plane. The effect of this in
|>the physical plane is that >the net appears to wrap around a gap of
|>air. When the physad attacks the >mage with a FAB club, the club's
|>aura hits the mage's aura. The effect of this in >the physical plane
|>is that the club strikes something in the air. The astral mage >is not
|>DIRECTLY influencing the physical plane, he is INDIRECTLY influencing
|>the physical plane. No rules are being broken. >There is no "forced
|>integration". FAB items won't pass through astral >mages/beings.
|
|We differ on the meaning of directly influencing the physcial plane. I
|see it as meaning this: An astral mage can't cast spells at
|non-magical objects, pick up things, physcially hurt people, etc.
|He/She CAN appear visible to people on the physical plane and
|communicate with them, though. He/She could appear, ask someone to do
|something that affects the phsical plane and then dissapear again.
|That is INDIRECTLY influencing the physcial, IMHO. Holding up a net,
|even without meaning to, is DIRECTLY influencing the physical.

I agree with Mike. The previous poster (sorry, lost your name when I
re-formated your and Mike's posts) used the words "direct" and
"indirect" to describe "active" and "passive" actions that,
IMHO,
described events which have a *direct* affect the physical plane. If
there is a conflict between a physical aura and an astral being I feel
that any affects should take place wholey on the astral plane.

|One rule of thumb I sometimes use, although it is not official by any
|means, is that pre-awakening when the magic level was very low, it was
|impossible to prove magic existed. Until someone casts spells or
|summons spirits to manifest (ALMOST impossible pre-2011), no matter
|what is swimming out in the astral, even if you can see it via astral
|perception, there is no way to prove you aren't making it up to a
|mundane. Otherwise, sometime in the last 5000 years, someone WOULD
|have proved magic existed. Just my opinion, but FASA seems to have a
|similar mind set.

Good point. Kinda like dark matter. Astronomers are pretty sure it's
out there, but they just can't find it. Maybe dark matter is really
the horrors (dark matter = horrors, get it? ;'D ...Um, you know, after
thinking about it, that's a really scary thought. <starts looking for a
hiding place>

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 36
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:14:57 -0700
Ferri Pagano wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Ubiquitous wrote:
> > >I wouldn't advise the trick with elementals or spirits, could piss off
> > >the wrong kind of people or worse...
> >
> > like Tutor? *evil grin*
>
> I'd say that falls into the category of worse, wouldn't you. <raised
> eyebrow>
>
>
> @>-,--'--- Loki
>
> CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Who th. is Tutor??
> Ferri

Read Threats, and then be careful of ever mistreating spirits again...



@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 37
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:19:49 -0700
Peter Leitch wrote:
>
> At 11:33 4/09/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
> >GRANITE wrote:
> >>
> >> Loki wrote:
> >> > Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest
> >> > visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they
> >> > cannot touch material things or affect the physical plane
directly."
> >> >
> >> > Basically they can Obi-Wan Kanboi but they gain no physical properties,
> >> > like an astrally projecting mage.......
> >>
> >> Ok..so can they be trapped by FB like an astral mage??? or Can you net one
> >> with a FB net, and perhaps bludgeon it with a FB club??????If not why not??
> >
> >If you're going to play with FB, and you can do it to an astrally
> >projecting mage then I assume you could do it to a Watcher. Plus a
> >watcher couldn't escape to it's native meta-plane since it doesn't have
> >one. Why waste the FB on something as simple as a Watcher though? And if
> >you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.
>
> Watchers don't have a meta-plane; magicians create them from elemental
> astral stuff around them. Grimoire states that they can never leave the
> etheric
> plane, either to maifest physically in the material world or to ascend to a
> metaplane. End quote.
>
> PML

Isn't that what I said...<quoting from my own message above>

"Plus a watcher couldn't escape to it's native meta-plane since it
doesn't have one."

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 38
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: 5 Sep 96 15:30:00 -0400
[snip]
As near as I can muddle it out. Astral being cannot directly affect physical
objects because they lack mass.
Here's the explanation.
Mundanes can affect mundane objects because they share all the same
dimensions. mass, height, etc. and if you want to get technical "astral
signature" (for lack of a better word.)
Astral travellers can affect astral objects because they share the same
attributes - astral attributes.
Follow me so far?
OK, now when the laws of nature check to allow objects to interact, they
only check to see if there is an attribute missing, not if there are extra
attributes.
example - Astral mage trying to move a plant. Both have an astral aura.
However, the mage lacks physical mass, while the plant does not. Since the
actor, cannot act upon all of the actees attributes, he cannot affect the plant.
Next example - FAB net trying to trap an astral mage. Both have an astral
aura. The FAB net has mass in the material plane, while the mage does not.
Here the actor (net) can act upon all of the actees attributes, the fact
that the actor has mass does not matter to the interaction process. The net
has enough astral presence to trap the mage.
[snip]

This is a really good explanation. This is sort of the idea I was
originally trying to get, but I couldn't wrap my feeble, "I'm at work
and at least half dozing" brain around it. The question now arises
about what to do with such things as FAB-clubs...from this angle, the
club can "act upon" the mage because it has both a living aura and mass
but would it do damage? I don't think that it would, because while the
club can contact the mage's aura, the actual kinetic energy would not be
carried across(that is what does the actual damage anyhow). The attack
might move the mage out of the way or, if the mage cannot be
moved(trapped in a FAB net) it would probably stop, but I don't see how
that this would do damage.

chris

<Zero length text item>
Message no. 39
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:04:26 -0500 (EST)
> This is a really good explanation.

Thank you. I was worried that it came out a little muddled. :-)

> This is sort of the idea I was
> originally trying to get, but I couldn't wrap my feeble, "I'm at work
> and at least half dozing" brain around it. The question now arises
> about what to do with such things as FAB-clubs...from this angle, the
> club can "act upon" the mage because it has both a living aura and mass

> but would it do damage? I don't think that it would, because while the
> club can contact the mage's aura, the actual kinetic energy would not be
> carried across(that is what does the actual damage anyhow). The attack
> might move the mage out of the way or, if the mage cannot be
> moved(trapped in a FAB net) it would probably stop, but I don't see how
> that this would do damage.

As far as the damage goes, I'm only allowing stun damage, and that only
because of the numerous descriptions of "intense pain" caused by the merging
of auras.
Message no. 40
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:41:25 -0700
Ferri Pagano wrote:
>
> Ok, Guys, you've done it. In but a few 100's mails of discussion about FAT-bac's
> you have turned me from a fat bac user to a fat bac hater, I now see just how
> really really stupid the whole idea is.

Huzzah!! A convert ;) ...Actually if you read my long winded reply under the
debate subject line FAB could make more sense..Also reread All the FAB rules
and referances in the CS book...I did and some make sense while others still
don't...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 41
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[7]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 15:47:31 EST
<sniiiiip>
%This is a really good explanation. This is sort of the idea I was
%originally trying to get, but I couldn't wrap my feeble, "I'm at work
%and at least half dozing" brain around it. The question now arises
%about what to do with such things as FAB-clubs...from this angle, the
%club can "act upon" the mage because it has both a living aura and mass
%but would it do damage? I don't think that it would, because while the
%club can contact the mage's aura, the actual kinetic energy would not
%be carried across(that is what does the actual damage anyhow). The
%attack might move the mage out of the way

ISN't this actually what kinetic energy is??????????????????

% or, if the mage cannot be moved(trapped in a FAB net) it would
%probably stop, but I don't see how that this would do damage.

%chris

<Zero length text item>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
F.
Message no. 42
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 15:39:10 EST
-----------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
%As near as I can muddle it out. Astral being cannot directly affect physical
%objects because they lack mass.
%Here's the explanation.
%Mundanes can affect mundane objects because they share all the same
%dimensions. mass, height, etc. and if you want to get technical "astral
%signature" (for lack of a better word.)
%Astral travellers can affect astral objects because they share the same
%attributes - astral attributes.

ok, lets see it your way for now...

<snip>
%example - Astral mage trying to move a plant. Both have an astral aura.
%However, the mage lacks physical mass, while the plant does not. Since the
%actor, cannot act upon all of the actees attributes, he cannot affect the
%plant. Next example - FAB net trying to trap an astral mage. Both have an
%astral
%aura. The FAB net has mass in the material plane, while the mage does not.
%Here the actor (net) can act upon all of the actees attributes, the fact
%that the actor has mass does not matter to the interaction process. The
%net has enough astral presence to trap the mage.

mmhhmmm, BUT the net only falls down because of the fact that it has MASS,
which is why gravity attracts it. so the NON-COMMON attribute <which you
state cannot influence accross the "astral barrier" > is the cause of the
mage's entrapment..... I think this constitiutes a logic gap in your
theory.
If you abandon the whole thing though and just say that the astral form has
no mass, you have a couple of other "weird things" that will happen when an
astral mage interacts with a living thing. [like if you swat a hand at him
you'll send him off planet!]
<snip>
<snip>
%One last opinion on this - We can believe that it's possible for a human to
%leave his body and travel around the world as a spirit, but we can't believe
%that a fat bacteria could stop him? C'mon, it's all in your head anyway. :-)
%If SR was a science FICTION game then I'd probably not allow FB either, but
%it's not, it's science FANTASY. Once magic comes into the game, all bets are
%off. Anyhting is possible. :-)

Sure, I'm for keeping astral and physical separated,[ I don't even allow
mages to manifest, to enhance roleplaying....] yep, it's magic but do blame
fasa for this whole sorry idea. you get too many problems when you mix astral
and physical, and this discussion DOES have meaning, because you as a gm have
to have concrete answers to your players' harebrained ideas.
-fab clubs indeed... harruuummpphh!

Ferri.
Message no. 43
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:59:04 -0600 (MDT)
Ferri Pagano wrote:
|
|If you abandon the whole thing though and just say that the astral form has
|no mass, you have a couple of other "weird things" that will happen when an
|astral mage interacts with a living thing. [like if you swat a hand at him
|you'll send him off planet!]

Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
momentum. If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass and
cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
can't affect them physically (no mass).

And, if something has no mass then it cannot be affected by
nor can it affect the physical component of a physical item.

Here's how I see it. You've got a physical net with mass
and an aura being thrown over an astral being with no
mass. The aura collide. The net has mass that is affected
by gravity and is pulled to the ground. The mage has no
mass and is pulled to the ground. The net hits the ground
trapping the mage between the net's aura and the (living)
ground. The mage's aura does not support the net because
the mage has no mass. The mage can escape from between the
net and the ground because he *has no mass* and can
therefore defy almost all the laws of physics allowing him
to slip between the net's aura and the ground's aura. He
might be in pain (GM's call IMHO) but he can escape.

You make a FAB club and hit an astral mage. The mage has
no mass and can't affect the club's movement in any way.
The club's aura pushes the mage out of the way. After the
club is no longer in contact the mage stops moving because
he can't aquire momentum. The club causes no damage
because it isn't magicaly active.

You envelope an astral mage in a cloud of FAB. The mage's
aura does some pretty funky contortions as it is forced
between all the bacterium. But again, he can escape by
slipping between the auras of the bacterium. And, IMHO, it
wouldn't slow him down at all because in astral space
movement is as fast as you can think.

Either FASA blew it when they made FAB, or FAB has a
characteristic that no one knows about that allows it to
trap astral beings.

-David

Thank you Bill Nye the Science Guy.

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 44
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:59:43 -0500 (EST)
>Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
>momentum. If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
>will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
>contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
>same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
>physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass and
>cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
>(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
>dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
>active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
>can't affect them physically (no mass).
>
>And, if something has no mass then it cannot be affected by
>nor can it affect the physical component of a physical item.
>
>Here's how I see it. You've got a physical net with mass
>and an aura being thrown over an astral being with no
>mass. The aura collide. The net has mass that is affected
>by gravity and is pulled to the ground. The mage has no
>mass and is pulled to the ground. The net hits the ground
>trapping the mage between the net's aura and the (living)
>ground. The mage's aura does not support the net because
>the mage has no mass. The mage can escape from between the
>net and the ground because he *has no mass* and can
>therefore defy almost all the laws of physics allowing him
>to slip between the net's aura and the ground's aura. He
>might be in pain (GM's call IMHO) but he can escape.
>
>You make a FAB club and hit an astral mage. The mage has
>no mass and can't affect the club's movement in any way.
>The club's aura pushes the mage out of the way. After the
>club is no longer in contact the mage stops moving because
>he can't aquire momentum. The club causes no damage
>because it isn't magicaly active.
>
>You envelope an astral mage in a cloud of FAB. The mage's
>aura does some pretty funky contortions as it is forced
>between all the bacterium. But again, he can escape by
>slipping between the auras of the bacterium. And, IMHO, it
>wouldn't slow him down at all because in astral space
>movement is as fast as you can think.
>
>Either FASA blew it when they made FAB, or FAB has a
>characteristic that no one knows about that allows it to
>trap astral beings.
>
>-David
>
>Thank you Bill Nye the Science Guy.

That's the best explanation I've seen so far!
Personally, I'm going with the unknown characteristic that allows it to trap
astral beings, because it's useful, and because of the possible horror
connection.
I'm still not sold on allowing mages to alter their astral form.
I allow one ideal expression, and that's it.
The way I see it, a human would have a hard time idealizing their body as
something other than human. If I allowed astral shapechanging at all, it
would only be for initiates, and only with a serious willpower or sorcery test!
Message no. 45
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[8]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:32:49 EST
-----------------------------------------------
%Ferri Pagano wrote:
%|
%|If you abandon the whole thing though and just say that the astral form has
%|no mass, you have a couple of other "weird things" that will happen when an
%|astral mage interacts with a living thing. [like if you swat a hand at him
%|you'll send him off planet!]

%Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
%momentum. If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
%will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
%contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
%same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
%physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass
%and cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
%(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
%dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
5active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
%can't affect them physically (no mass).

well this is actually true, I was assuming an
infinitestimal mass and not a true 0 mass. BUT you get a
problem when said mage stands under the net and casts a
levitate on himself. and then starts flying. he can now
exert force on the aura on top of him, so he should be able
to lift it!, believe me this can be abused by players, [I
thought of about 10 evil things in 10 min, but that might
just be evil me. :) ]

%And, if something has no mass then it cannot be affected by
%nor can it affect the physical component of a physical
%item.

not affected by? ok situation is this: astral mage bumps
into a peasant, he MUST go through him if your rule holds as
they do not interact. This is the one thing that is
strictcly forbidden by the usual rules.

%Here's how I see it. You've got a physical net with mass
%and an aura being thrown over an astral being with
%nomass. The aura collide. The net has mass that is
%affected by gravity and is pulled to the ground. The mage
%has no mass and is pulled to the ground. The net hits the
%ground trapping the mage between the net's aura and the
%(living) ground. The mage's aura does not support the net
%because the mage has no mass. The mage can escape from
%between the net and the ground because he *has no mass*
%and can therefore defy almost all the laws of physics
%allowing him to slip between the net's aura and the
%ground's aura. He might be in pain (GM's call IMHO) but
%he can escape.

you realize that escaping would HAVE to mean changing form?

%You make a FAB club and hit an astral mage. The mage has
%no mass and can't affect the club's movement in any way.
%The club's aura pushes the mage out of the way. After
%the club is no longer in contact the mage stops moving
%because he can't aquire momentum. The club causes no
%damage because it isn't magicaly active.

This is the essence of the normal rules, what's your
point?

%You envelope an astral mage in a cloud of FAB. The mage's
%aura does some pretty funky contortions as it is forced
%between all the bacterium. But again, he can escape by
%slipping between the auras of the bacterium. And, IMHO, it
%wouldn't slow him down at all because in astral space
%movement is as fast as you can think.

nope, there ARE limits [mrating in m or x1000 for fast
movement, fast but not really lightspeed]

%Either FASA blew it when they made FAB, or FAB has a
%characteristic that no one knows about that allows it to
%trap astral beings.

FASA blew it.

-David
---------------------------------------------------------


Ferri
Message no. 46
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:13:09 -0600 (MDT)
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
[snip: my take on astral/aura]
|
|That's the best explanation I've seen so far!

Thank you. I knew I could figure it out and when someone
made the comment about mass it clicked.

|Personally, I'm going with the unknown characteristic that allows it to trap
|astral beings, because it's useful, and because of the possible horror
|connection.

Ditto. <heh heh>

|I'm still not sold on allowing mages to alter their astral form.
|I allow one ideal expression, and that's it.
|The way I see it, a human would have a hard time idealizing their body as
|something other than human. If I allowed astral shapechanging at all, it
|would only be for initiates, and only with a serious willpower or
|sorcery test!

Oh I wouldn't allow them to consciously change their shape
or form, but I would allow outside forces to do so (getting
stuck between a living net and the ground). But once that
force is no longer exerting itself I would say that they
bounce back to their expressed form/shape.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 47
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[8]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:29:53 -0600 (MDT)
Ferri Pagano wrote:
|
|I wrote:
|
|%Ferri Pagano wrote:
|%|
|%|If you abandon the whole thing though and just say that
|%|the astral form has no mass, you have a couple of other
|%|"weird things" that will happen when an astral mage
|%|interacts with a living thing. [like if you swat a hand at
|%|him you'll send him off planet!]
|
|%Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
|%momentum. If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
|%will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
|%contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
|%same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
|%physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass
|%and cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
|%(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
|%dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
|5active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
|%can't affect them physically (no mass).
|
|well this is actually true, I was assuming an
|infinitestimal mass and not a true 0 mass. BUT you get a
|problem when said mage stands under the net and casts a
|levitate on himself. and then starts flying. he can now
|exert force on the aura on top of him, so he should be able
|to lift it!, believe me this can be abused by players, [I
|thought of about 10 evil things in 10 min, but that might
|just be evil me. :) ]

But, he has no physical form to cast levitate on. I would
say that (physical) manipulation spells cannot affect the
purely astral.

|%And, if something has no mass then it cannot be affected by
|%nor can it affect the physical component of a physical
|%item.
|
|not affected by? ok situation is this: astral mage bumps
|into a peasant, he MUST go through him if your rule holds as
|they do not interact. This is the one thing that is
|strictcly forbidden by the usual rules.

I'm not disagreeing with the rule that aura's can't
interact. I'm saying that an aura can't have a physical
affect because it doesn't have a physical component. I
agree that in your example that the astral mage's aura
would bounce off the physical peasant's aura (the mage has
no mass to apply to the peasant's mass), but that the
peasant wouldn't suffer any consequences of the collision
(wouldn't even notice it in fact).

|%Here's how I see it. You've got a physical net with mass
|%and an aura being thrown over an astral being with
|%nomass. The aura collide. The net has mass that is
|%affected by gravity and is pulled to the ground. The mage
|%has no mass and is pulled to the ground. The net hits the
|%ground trapping the mage between the net's aura and the
|%(living) ground. The mage's aura does not support the net
|%because the mage has no mass. The mage can escape from
|%between the net and the ground because he *has no mass*
|%and can therefore defy almost all the laws of physics
|%allowing him to slip between the net's aura and the
|%ground's aura. He might be in pain (GM's call IMHO) but
|%he can escape.
|
|you realize that escaping would HAVE to mean changing form?

The mage isn't changing his form, the physical component of
the net is doing it for him. All he has to do is move.
And since he has no mass there is nothing stopping him.
And since auras can't interact the aura of the net and the
aura of the ground aren't mingling, so theoreticaly there
is a "space" between the net's aura and the ground's aura.
As he moves his aura should conform to the space
available. Once he's free he'll return to normal.

|%You make a FAB club and hit an astral mage. The mage has
|%no mass and can't affect the club's movement in any way.
|%The club's aura pushes the mage out of the way. After
|%the club is no longer in contact the mage stops moving
|%because he can't aquire momentum. The club causes no
|%damage because it isn't magicaly active.
|
|This is the essence of the normal rules, what's your
|point?

Because other people had different ideas on what would
happen. I wanted to express my view.

|%You envelope an astral mage in a cloud of FAB. The mage's
|%aura does some pretty funky contortions as it is forced
|%between all the bacterium. But again, he can escape by
|%slipping between the auras of the bacterium. And, IMHO, it
|%wouldn't slow him down at all because in astral space
|%movement is as fast as you can think.
|
|nope, there ARE limits [mrating in m or x1000 for fast
|movement, fast but not really lightspeed]

Okay, you got me there :)

|%Either FASA blew it when they made FAB, or FAB has a
|%characteristic that no one knows about that allows it to
|%trap astral beings.
|
|FASA blew it.

Yeah <sigh> but I'm going to take advantage of it to
introduce something nasty to my players <heh heh>.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 48
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 96 15:27:52 +1100
>Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
>momentum.

Not true... Or rather, it's true in a simplistic sense, but it breaks
down when you start talking about relativistic speeds (light, for
example... it doesn't, strictly speaking, have mass (the wave/particle
debate))

> If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
>will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
>contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
>same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
>physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass and
>cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
>(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
>dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
>active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
>can't affect them physically (no mass).

You are assuming that the only interactions are the standard ones of
physics. However, auras interact as well, with real force.

>You make a FAB club and hit an astral mage. The mage has
>no mass and can't affect the club's movement in any way.
>The club's aura pushes the mage out of the way. After the
>club is no longer in contact the mage stops moving because
>he can't aquire momentum. The club causes no damage
>because it isn't magicaly active.

Actually, that is correct, but for different reasons. However, if the
mage could NOT move out of the way, then forced intersection occurs.

>You envelope an astral mage in a cloud of FAB. The mage's
>aura does some pretty funky contortions as it is forced
>between all the bacterium. But again, he can escape by
>slipping between the auras of the bacterium. And, IMHO, it
>wouldn't slow him down at all because in astral space
>movement is as fast as you can think.

Bzzt... the mage can't "slip between" the auras of the bacteria. The mage
can't fit. Sort of like how you can't walk through a chicken wire fence
without breaking it. The mage gets slowed down as he has to wait for the
weak, but real, interactions between his (greater) aura and the (lesser)
auras of the bacteria to force the bacteria aside. Now before anyone gets
technical on me, this doesn't work in the net scenario, 'cause the
gravitational attraction of the net is far greater than the force
genereated by the interaction of auras.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 49
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:50:59 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|>Nope. If you don't have mass then you can't aquire
|>momentum.
|
|Not true... Or rather, it's true in a simplistic sense, but it breaks
|down when you start talking about relativistic speeds (light, for
|example... it doesn't, strictly speaking, have mass (the wave/particle
|debate))

Yeah, but light's wierd :)

|> If the astral mage is hit by an aura then he
|>will stop moving as soon as the aura is no longer in
|>contact with him (if he indeed has no mass). Which is the
|>same reason that a mage cannot affect anything on the
|>physical plane that isn't dual natured. He has no mass and
|>cannot aquire momentum and therefore cannot impart
|>(physical) energy on anything. For those things that are
|>dual natured he can affect that part that is magically
|>active by using his willpower and/or magic, but he still
|>can't affect them physically (no mass).
|
|You are assuming that the only interactions are the standard ones of
|physics. However, auras interact as well, with real force.

What I'm assuming is that an astral being cannot apply any
"physical" force to a physical being. While the same
astral being can apply a "physical" force to another astral
being.

What the rules say is that an astral being cannot affect a
physical being that is not dual natured. IMHO, this
implies that an astral being cannot impart physical energy
in any way shape or form upon a physical being.

This is why I don't believe that a mage cannot support a
living net that has fallen on top of him catching him
between the ground and it's aura. The mage has no physical
attributes (IMHO) to counter the physical force of gravity
that is pulling the net down.

At this point I really have no idea what happens to the
mage. One could say that his aura is distorted and he's in
a hell of a lot of pain. One could also say that such a
distortion causes no pain at all. Or, intersection occurs
(accompanied by pain or not). And whether or not the mage
can escape is debatable. It depends on whether or not he
can slip between the net's aura and the ground's aura (I'm
starting to think not, because of the aura's of the ground
and the net are a very real force as far as the mage is
concerned and he has no way to counter gravity).

And, I'm starting to believe that regular bacteria and
viruses don't affect astral movement because there is a
critical size required for something to have an aura.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 50
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:52:40 +0000
On 5 Sep 96 at 11:32, David Buehrer wrote:
[snipped Faux Pas' comments]
> So a living net can wrap itself around an astral being but
> the same being cannot affect the net?
So you can bew run over by a train, but can't shove it from the rails? Hey,
that's UNFAIR! :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 51
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:38:55 -0600 (MDT)
Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
|On 5 Sep 96 at 11:32, David Buehrer wrote:
|[snipped Faux Pas' comments]
|> So a living net can wrap itself around an astral being but
|> the same being cannot affect the net?
|
|So you can bew run over by a train, but can't shove it from the rails? Hey,
|that's UNFAIR! :-)

Point taken. Okay, I can now see how a mage's aura could
support the net but that the mage lacks the "strength" to
move the net. The mage's aura could have sufficient
integrity to overcome gravity while the mage himself does
not have physical strength to push against the net.

Dave's current theory:

Astral beings have a form that is solid in respect to other
astral forms and the auras of living things. The shape of
an astral being's form cannot be changed without harming
the astral being.

Astral beings have no mass. They cannot acquire momentum.

Aura's do not have mass and cannot acquire momentum.

Astral beings have no physical strength. They cannot exert
physical force.

There is a minimum size that a life form must reach to
acquire an aura. Bacterium and smaller lifeforms do not
have an aura.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 17:05:50 +1100
>What I'm assuming is that an astral being cannot apply any
>"physical" force to a physical being. While the same
>astral being can apply a "physical" force to another astral
>being.
>
>What the rules say is that an astral being cannot affect a
>physical being that is not dual natured. IMHO, this
>implies that an astral being cannot impart physical energy
>in any way shape or form upon a physical being.

Um... okay. How do Manipulation spells work in your game, just out of
curiosity? Heck, how does the damage to an aura in astral space get
reflected in the body?

A quick, oh, four, maybe five seconds thought shows that there ARE ways
astral beings (eg, spells) can impart physical energy to a physical being.

>This is why I don't believe that a mage cannot support a
>living net that has fallen on top of him catching him
>between the ground and it's aura. The mage has no physical
>attributes (IMHO) to counter the physical force of gravity
>that is pulling the net down.

Well, you got that right... but the same mage CAN deflect the bacteria
around him, though it slows him down with FAB. Again, an obvious case of
Astral/Physical interaction. It's just not a strong enough interaction to
counter the physical force of gravity.

>And, I'm starting to believe that regular bacteria and
>viruses don't affect astral movement because there is a
>critical size required for something to have an aura.

Hmm... I'd agree about viruses. Viruses aren't living (they don't have
enough genetic information to reproduce by themselves, so most reasearch
docs say they aren't, strictly speaking, alive). And I get by on bacteria
by saying they just don't weigh enough nor have a large enough aura.

(Hmm... if there's a critical size... what is it? Obviously FAB is big
enough. So there's a maximum level for it)


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 53
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:33:58 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|I wrote:
|
|>What I'm assuming is that an astral being cannot apply any
|>"physical" force to a physical being. While the same
|>astral being can apply a "physical" force to another astral
|>being.
|>
|>What the rules say is that an astral being cannot affect a
|>physical being that is not dual natured. IMHO, this
|>implies that an astral being cannot impart physical energy
|>in any way shape or form upon a physical being.
|
|Um... okay. How do Manipulation spells work in your game, just out of
|curiosity?

Hopefully by the rules :) A mage casts a manipulation spell
and the spell manifests in physical form on the astral
plane, or changes the physical properties of a target.
What does this have to do with astral mages bumping into or
getting trapped between auras? I feel that an astral mage
cannot directly impart physical energy. A manipulation
spell is an indirect method of imparting physical energy.

|Heck, how does the damage to an aura in astral space get
|reflected in the body?

This one has never come in my game. Off the cuff I would
say that it doesn't.

|A quick, oh, four, maybe five seconds thought shows that there ARE ways
|astral beings (eg, spells) can impart physical energy to a physical being.

Only if they can ground through... Oh no you don't! I'm
not getting into that debate! ;)

Seriously though. I see where your going. How do spells
which are astral beings affect physical beings? ...Okay, I
admit that I'm a coward and don't want to travel down this
line of debate.

|>This is why I don't believe that a mage cannot support a
|>living net that has fallen on top of him catching him
|>between the ground and it's aura. The mage has no physical
|>attributes (IMHO) to counter the physical force of gravity
|>that is pulling the net down.
|
|Well, you got that right... but the same mage CAN deflect the bacteria
|around him, though it slows him down with FAB. Again, an obvious case of
|Astral/Physical interaction. It's just not a strong enough interaction to
|counter the physical force of gravity.

Gah! Now I know how Bill Clinton feels. I thought I had
it figured out, then Sasha had to go and make the train
comment. I'm gonna wait for difinitive answer from
FASAMike. If any PCs in my game manage to get themselves
into this situation before that happens they die, Die, DIE,
DIE!! <Hahahahahahahahahahahah> (Sounds of wrestling
between Dave and men in white coats)

|| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
|| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
|| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
|| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
|| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |

ROFL!

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 54
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:00:44 GMT
Steven A. Tinner writes
>
> Personally, I'm going with the unknown characteristic that allows it to trap
> astral beings, because it's useful, and because of the possible horror
> connection.
Horros, thats evil :) he he he.

> I'm still not sold on allowing mages to alter their astral form.
They should not be able to.
I allow initiates to mask to match their physical form (if
shapechanged) but as you cannot sustain spells while project this
would not help them. No an idealised self image is not what you make
up on the fly its your real feelings, and if you veiw yourself as
human its going to look human!

> I allow one ideal expression, and that's it.
> The way I see it, a human would have a hard time idealizing their body as
> something other than human. If I allowed astral shapechanging at all, it
> would only be for initiates, and only with a serious willpower or sorcery test!
>
>

Mark
Message no. 55
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[8]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:05:32 GMT
David Buehrer writes
> |
> |well this is actually true, I was assuming an
> |infinitestimal mass and not a true 0 mass. BUT you get a
> |problem when said mage stands under the net and casts a
> |levitate on himself.
not at all, thats a sustained spell, projected mages cannot sustain
spells, (as per SR2), nice idea but.

> | and then starts flying. he can now
> |exert force on the aura on top of him, so he should be able
> |to lift it!,
no it has a physical component. pure astral cannot move physical even
if dual. Dual or living is never banned from moving things that are
purely astral, net moves mage, mage deos not move net.

> |believe me this can be abused by players, [I
> |thought of about 10 evil things in 10 min, but that might
> |just be evil me. :) ]
>
well it could if it didn't break the rules.

> But, he has no physical form to cast levitate on. I would
> say that (physical) manipulation spells cannot affect the
> purely astral.
>
I agree, they have to have a physical component which is why glass
blocks flamethrower but not powerbolt

>

Mark
Message no. 56
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 21:13:52 +1100
>|Heck, how does the damage to an aura in astral space get
>|reflected in the body?
>
>This one has never come in my game. Off the cuff I would
>say that it doesn't.

It should though... all damage on the Astral is physical and is reflected
in the body. It's in the rules, and it's CERTAINLY in the literature...


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 57
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:08:59 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|>|Heck, how does the damage to an aura in astral space get
|>|reflected in the body?
|>
|>This one has never come in my game. Off the cuff I would
|>say that it doesn't.
|
|It should though... all damage on the Astral is physical and is reflected
|in the body. It's in the rules, and it's CERTAINLY in the literature...

Okay, I blew that one :( Just read Sasha's quote of the rule.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 58
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:27:23 -0700
Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> not at all, thats a sustained spell, projected mages cannot sustain
> spells, (as per SR2), nice idea but.

That idea piques my interest, where do you come across that in S/R II?
I'd love to know...another big suprises for my players.


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 59
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:38:40 GMT
Loki writes

> Mark Steedman wrote:
> >
> > not at all, thats a sustained spell, projected mages cannot sustain
> > spells, (as per SR2), nice idea but.
>
> That idea piques my interest, where do you come across that in S/R II?
> I'd love to know...another big suprises for my players.
>
That could take some time to find.

Mark
Message no. 60
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:30:06 +0000
On 11 Sep 96 at 22:27, Loki wrote:
> > not at all, thats a sustained spell, projected mages cannot sustain
> > spells, (as per SR2), nice idea but.
> That idea piques my interest, where do you come across that in S/R II?
> I'd love to know...another big suprises for my players.
SRII, p. 128 (Spell duration) :
"Magicians may maintain spells while astrally perceiving (p.145), but not
while astrally projecting (p. 146)."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Further Reading

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