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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [SR2] GM Direction
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:59:17 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Peter wrote:

> Would everyone please quit claiming that as he GM they are not
> controling the lives of their players. Who decides what jobs
> they will be offered? Who decides how the cops (and corps) will
> respond to the runners actions? Who shapes the events of the
> world around them?
>
> Stop squirming and fess up.

There is a very big difference between creating a setting for
your players to function in and directing their lives. There is a very
big difference between creating interesting NPC's for the players to
interact with and creating monster NPC's to hound and punish your players
constantly. And there's a *very* big difference between letting your
players be *in character* and have to face the reasonable consequences of
their actions and using an arbitrary "tool" to punish the players for
behavior determined to be "bad" when measured against the GM's moral
values.
You are correct in that the GM creates the world and directs the
action, but that doesn't mean they have to *control* the players.
Personally, I don't care whether the players are running characters that
are pious and good in every way, or rude, crude, homicidal maniacs with
acute paranoia. The consequences of both options have punishments and/or
rewards within themselves. But there's chance involved, and good planning
and careful execution can keep the worst of the consequences at bay. A
carefully planned murder can have few to no consequences. The same
cannot be said of "bad karma." It happens automatically, it's arbitrary,
and doesn't allow for differing viewpoints on morality (unless the GM is
a moral relativist). *That* is my problem with bad karma.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2] GM Direction
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:10:56 -0500
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Peter wrote:

> Would everyone please quit claiming that as he GM they are not > controling
the lives of their players. <snip> > Stop squirming and fess up.

Marc replied
>There is a very big difference between creating a setting for your players to
>function in and directing their lives. <snip>

My 2 cents: I view my job as GM as 1/3 rules expert, and 2/3 story teller. If you
want a detailed impartial simulation, play a computer version. If you want
adventure, play with a GM. The GM has to create a good story out of what the
players do, and that always involves some amount of coercion. On the other
hand, if the players ever get to see "the man behind the curtain" the fun is
over,
they can't trust the wizard of oz any more.

Rule 1: Lead them around as much as you can, But
Rule 2: NEVER get caught.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: [SR2] GM Direction
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:10:07 -0500 (EST)
>Rule 1: Lead them around as much as you can, But
>Rule 2: NEVER get caught.

Bravo!
I was a teenage mutant ninja when teenage mutant ninjas weren't cool . . .
Message no. 4
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: [SR2] GM Direction
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:59:42 -0600
Double-Domed Mike wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Peter wrote:
>
>> Would everyone please quit claiming that as he GM they are not
>> controling the lives of their players.
> <snip>
>> Stop squirming and fess up.
>
>Marc replied
>>There is a very big difference between creating a setting for
>>your players to function in and directing their lives.
><snip>
>
>My 2 cents: I view my job as GM as 1/3 rules expert, and 2/3 story
>teller. If you want a detailed impartial simulation, play a computer
>version. If you want adventure, play with a GM. The GM has to create
>a good story out of what the players do, and that always involves some
>amount of coercion. On the other hand, if the players ever get to see
>"the man behind the curtain" the fun is over, they can't trust the
>wizard of oz any more.
>
>Rule 1: Lead them around as much as you can, But
>Rule 2: NEVER get caught.
>
>

This is exactly how it has been used, as a game concept that has some effect=
in how the GM runs the game. In the type of situation that Ahz used as an=
example (BTW I don't think it ever really took place, just an example to=
illustrate the idea) the spirit read the aura's of every one involved and=
attacked the Shark Shaman as the most potent enemy. The next spirit might=
have ignored this and attacked the enemy nearest to the conjurer.

I feel that all spirits should have personalities (or at least character=
traits for lower level spirits) that effect how they obey comands. One=
city spirit using the accident power might give a pursuing car a flat tire=
with scrap metal in the street, while a more violent spirit would use the=
same scrap metal to puncture the fuel tank.

This is the type of situation where the GM would use the Bad Karma concept=
to decide what type of spirit is summoned. A violent character is more=
likely to get violent spirits. (this could extend to bug spirits trying to=
get him to join them)

In any case, the idea of Bak Karma should _never_ be heald over the=
characters head in order to get them to behave in a certain way.

Piatro
Message no. 5
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: [SR2] GM Direction
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:23:28 -0600 (CST)
This is exactly how it has been used, as a game concept that has some effect
in how the GM runs the game. In the type of situation that Ahz used as an
example (BTW I don't think it ever really took place, just an example to
illustrate the idea)

He's right :)

the spirit read the aura's of every one involved and attacked the Shark
Shaman as the most potent enemy. The next spirit might have ignored this
and attacked the enemy nearest to the conjurer.
>
>I feel that all spirits should have personalities (or at least character
traits for lower level spirits) that effect how they obey comands. One city
spirit using the accident power might give a pursuing car a flat tire with
scrap metal in the street, while a more violent spirit would use the same
scrap metal to puncture the fuel tank.
>
>This is the type of situation where the GM would use the Bad Karma concept
to decide what type of spirit is summoned. A violent character is more
likely to get violent spirits. (this could extend to bug spirits trying to
get him to join them)
>
>In any case, the idea of Bad Karma should _never_ be held over the
characters head in order to get them to behave in a certain way.
>
>Piatro
>
>
That is the idea, a tool for storyline, not something to bludgeon players with.

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!