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Message no. 1
From: Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:29:53 GMT
A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?

First Simple Action
Right hand gun gets +0
Left hand gun gets +2

Second Simple Action
Right hand gun gets +4
Left hand gun gets +6

Or, does it only apply to the individual guns?

First Simple Action
Right hand gun gets +0
Left hand gun gets +0

Second Simple Action
Right hand gun gets +2
Left hand gun gets +2


Chameleon,

<<<Begin SIG File>>>
Don't be silly. If this was REALLY the ships self destuct button,
do you think they would leave it lying around where anyone could press =
it?
- Famous Last Words
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I'm always here, you just don't see me:)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Live hard, Die young, Leave a good looking corpse!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Thank God I'm an atheist
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father,
instead of screaming in terror like his passengers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Mind Like A Steel Trap - Rusty And Illegal In 37 States
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
The computer revolution is over. They won.
<<<End SIG File>>>
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200
According to Chameleon, at 3:29 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
> them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?

I'd say the multiple target modifier applies to all shots, as the
character has to divide his or her attention between the different targets
from the start. The modifier for using two guns applies as well, in
addition to recoil from the othet gun.

So that'd make it:

First Simple Action
Gun one: +5 (+2 for secondary target, +2 for second firearm,
+1 for recoil from other gun)
Gun two: +5 (same)
Second Simple Action
Gun one: +9 (+4 for two secondary targets, +2 for second firearm,
+2 for recoil from other gun, +1 for recoil from last shot)
Gun two: +9 (same)


--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:52:34 GMT
And so, on Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200 did Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
quoth merrily:

>According to Chameleon, at 3:29 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street =
was...
>
>> A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
>> them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?
>
>I'd say the multiple target modifier applies to all shots, as the
>character has to divide his or her attention between the different =
targets
>from the start. The modifier for using two guns applies as well, in
>addition to recoil from the othet gun.
>
>So that'd make it:
>
>First Simple Action
> Gun one: +5 (+2 for secondary target, +2 for second firearm,
> +1 for recoil from other gun)
> Gun two: +5 (same)
>Second Simple Action
> Gun one: +9 (+4 for two secondary targets, +2 for second =
firearm,
> +2 for recoil from other gun, +1 for recoil from =
last shot)
> Gun two: +9 (same)
>
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - =
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<snip sig>

Ahh, I didn't mention that the character is ambidextrous, has strength
of 5, and both pistols have improved gas venting 2 on them, did I??,
that sorta cuts down the modifiers, making it:

First Simple Action
Gun one: +2 for secondary target
Gun two: +2 (same)
Second Simple Action
Gun one: +4 for two secondary targets
Gun two: +4 (same)

Right?

Chameleon,

<<<Begin SIG File>>>
Don't be silly. If this was REALLY the ships self destuct button,
do you think they would leave it lying around where anyone could press =
it?
- Famous Last Words
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I'm always here, you just don't see me:)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Live hard, Die young, Leave a good looking corpse!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Thank God I'm an atheist
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father,
instead of screaming in terror like his passengers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Mind Like A Steel Trap - Rusty And Illegal In 37 States
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
The computer revolution is over. They won.
<<<End SIG File>>>
Message no. 4
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:09:16 -0500
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:52:34 GMT Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
writes:
>And so, on Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200 did Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>quoth merrily:
>>According to Chameleon, at 3:29 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...
>>> A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
>>> them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?

<SNIP>
>>So that'd make it:
>>
>>First Simple Action
>> Gun one: +5 (+2 for secondary target, +2 for second firearm,
>> +1 for recoil from other gun)
>> Gun two: +5 (same)
>>Second Simple Action
>> Gun one: +9 (+4 for two secondary targets, +2 for second
firearm,
>> +2 for recoil from other gun, +1 for recoil from
last
>>shot)
>> Gun two: +9 (same)
<SNIP>
>Ahh, I didn't mention that the character is ambidextrous, has strength
>of 5, and both pistols have improved gas venting 2 on them, did I??,
>that sorta cuts down the modifiers, making it:
>
>First Simple Action
> Gun one: +2 for secondary target
> Gun two: +2 (same)
>Second Simple Action
> Gun one: +4 for two secondary targets
> Gun two: +4 (same)
>
>Right?
<SNIP>

Nope. Actually, Gurth forgot to mention the off-hand penalty ...
So for most people, it'd be
Simple Action 1
Gun 1: +5
Gun 2: +7
Simple Action 2
Gun 1: +9
Gun 2: +11

But for you with Ambidexterity & gas vent, it'd be
Simple Action 1
Gun 1&2: +4
Simple Action 2
Gun 1&2: +8

Sorry. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:49:26 -0400
At 06:09 AM 9/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
<SNIP>
>
>Nope. Actually, Gurth forgot to mention the off-hand penalty ...
>So for most people, it'd be
>Simple Action 1
> Gun 1: +5
> Gun 2: +7
>Simple Action 2
> Gun 1: +9
> Gun 2: +11
>
>But for you with Ambidexterity & gas vent, it'd be
>Simple Action 1
> Gun 1&2: +4
>Simple Action 2
> Gun 1&2: +8

Ambidexterity, no recoil. How about this:

Simple Action 1
Gun 1: +2 for using 2 weapons
Gun 2: +2 for using 2 weapons
+2 for a second target
Simple Action 3
Gun 3: +2 for using 2 weapons
+4 for a third target
Gun 4: +2 for using 2 weapons
+6 for a fourth target

Don't have the page reference, but in the ranged combat section it says
that you get the +2 modifier for EACH new target. So that would equate to
getting the +2, +4, +6, +8 step function for the shots.

Sommers
Home page to eventually be installed in this location.
Actual date is Real Soon Now (tm)!
Message no. 6
From: andrew <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:00:44 +0100
Gurth wrote:

> According to Chameleon, at 3:29 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
>
> > A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
> > them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?
>
> I'd say the multiple target modifier applies to all shots, as the
> character has to divide his or her attention between the different targets
> from the start. The modifier for using two guns applies as well, in
> addition to recoil from the othet gun.
>
> So that'd make it:
>
> First Simple Action
> Gun one: +5 (+2 for secondary target, +2 for second firearm,
> +1 for recoil from other gun)
> Gun two: +5 (same)
> Second Simple Action
> Gun one: +9 (+4 for two secondary targets, +2 for second firearm,
> +2 for recoil from other gun, +1 for recoil from last shot)
> Gun two: +9 (same)

The first gun would not have +2 for secondary target as in each action one target
will be the first target.

KO
Message no. 7
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:10:34 -0400
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Chameleon wrote:

->A character has 2 pistols and 4 targets and wants to shoot at all of
->them, 1 shot each. Do multiple target modifiers apply to all guns?
<snip rest>

Yep. And don't forget to apply any off-handed weapon (if not
ambidextrous), using two weapon (even if ambi-), no smartgun link
bonuses (because the rules say so even if I do think it's a bad idea), and
recoil compensation (each applies to both). I doubt they'll hit anything
but the attempt will be pretty damned impressive.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:55 +0200
According to Chameleon, at 9:52 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Ahh, I didn't mention that the character is ambidextrous, has strength
> of 5, and both pistols have improved gas venting 2 on them, did I??,

No, you didn't. What it does is totally skew the situation, because the
"ambidextrous" thingie is very hard to implement in SR. The rules in FoF
suck drek IMHO, so I'll leave them out of this discussion if you'll let me
:) and assume it's the Ambidexterity edge from the Companion you're
talking about.

> that sorta cuts down the modifiers, making it:
>
> First Simple Action
> Gun one: +2 for secondary target
> Gun two: +2 (same)
> Second Simple Action
> Gun one: +4 for two secondary targets
> Gun two: +4 (same)
>
> Right?

Wrong. You still get the +2 for using a second firearm (see Companion p.
25), so it's +4 for the first two shots, and +6 for the second pair of
shots.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200
According to andrew, at 16:00 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> The first gun would not have +2 for secondary target as in each action one target
> will be the first target.

If you are firing two guns simultaneously, which one is firing at the
first target?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200
According to D. Ghost, at 6:09 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Nope. Actually, Gurth forgot to mention the off-hand penalty ...

_IS_ there an off-hand penalty in SR (except for the rules in FoF, that
is)? I can't remember ever seeing one...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:55:33 -0700
Ahh, I didn't mention that the character is ambidextrous, has strength
of 5, and both pistols have improved gas venting 2 on them, did I??,
that sorta cuts down the modifiers, making it:

First Simple Action
Gun one: +2 for secondary target
Gun two: +2 (same)
Second Simple Action
Gun one: +4 for two secondary targets
Gun two: +4 (same)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think every ambidextrous description says you STILL get a penalty
for using two firearms (I know, what is the point; IMO, there isn't one,
but then, I haven't heard of any great famous ambidextrous marksmen).
Also, I would apply the penalty per target shot at, as the description
says. Assuming no recoiled problems, this gives (per SR3 p. 112)

First Simple Action
Gun one: +2 for using two guns
Gun two: +4 (same plus second target)
Second Simple Action
Gun one: +6 for two guns, plus third target
Gun two: +8 (same, fourth target)

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:23:25 -0500
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>According to D. Ghost, at 6:09 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

>> Nope. Actually, Gurth forgot to mention the off-hand penalty ...

>_IS_ there an off-hand penalty in SR (except for the rules in FoF, that
>is)? I can't remember ever seeing one...
>
<SNIP Sig>

Oops. I guess that made so much sense I had forgotten it was optional.
:)

I hate it when that happens. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: andrew <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:11:59 +0100
Gurth wrote:

> According to andrew, at 16:00 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
>
> > The first gun would not have +2 for secondary target as in each action one
target
> > will be the first target.
>
> If you are firing two guns simultaneously, which one is firing at the
> first target?

If you arent ambidextrous the gun in your primary hand, if you are then it comes down
to determining the biggest threat to you, and thats the primary target.

KO
Message no. 14
From: Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:17:28 GMT
And so, on Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:11:59 +0100 did andrew
<andrew@********.NET.UK> quoth merrily:

>Gurth wrote:
>
>> According to andrew, at 16:00 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street =
was...
>>
>> > The first gun would not have +2 for secondary target as in each =
action one target
>> > will be the first target.
>>
>> If you are firing two guns simultaneously, which one is firing at the
>> first target?
>
>If you arent ambidextrous the gun in your primary hand, if you are then =
it comes down
>to determining the biggest threat to you, and thats the primary target.

And if all the targets are the same (or at least appear to be, 4
standard guards for instance) and your ambidextrous?

Chameleon,

--
Don't be silly. If this was REALLY the ships self destuct button,
do you think they would leave it lying around where anyone could press =
it?
- Famous Last Words
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I'm always here, you just don't see me:)
Message no. 15
From: andrew <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Multiple Targets
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:34:05 +0100
>
> And if all the targets are the same (or at least appear to be, 4
> standard guards for instance) and your ambidextrous?

This comes down to individual situations. In combat there is hardly ever a situation
where all targets act on the same initiative, so one of these goons will be going first.

KO

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