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Message no. 1
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:14:42 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:00 PM 9/5/96 -0500, Galan wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:

>If a spirit has a free will, whats to stop them from liking the conjurer?
>Or, at least, suffering from the same symptomes that make hostages make
>excuses for their kidnappers?

OK, but I don't presume that all spirits have free will to begin with.
I feel that nature spirits do, especially spirits of man, but elementals?
Nahh...

>> It does for nature spirits, but not for elementals. Has there ever been
>> an elemental with a personality, like a nature spirit?
>
>Yeah.... Dunno about in the RPG books, but there are a handful of
>intersting ones in Burning Bright (and, intestingly, the elementals seem
>to show concern for one another, too).

Perhaps Kyle's elementals had been rebonded many many times and developed
personalities?

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 2
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:07:41 -0500 (EST)
>At 12:00 PM 9/5/96 -0500, Galan wrote:
>>On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:
>
>>If a spirit has a free will, whats to stop them from liking the conjurer?
>>Or, at least, suffering from the same symptomes that make hostages make
>>excuses for their kidnappers?
>
>OK, but I don't presume that all spirits have free will to begin with.
>I feel that nature spirits do, especially spirits of man, but elementals?
>Nahh...
>
>>> It does for nature spirits, but not for elementals. Has there ever been
>>> an elemental with a personality, like a nature spirit?
>>
>>Yeah.... Dunno about in the RPG books, but there are a handful of
>>intersting ones in Burning Bright (and, intestingly, the elementals seem
>>to show concern for one another, too).
>
>Perhaps Kyle's elementals had been rebonded many many times and developed
>personalities?

That's they way we're treating it. nature spirits have distinct
personalities from the moment they are summoned.
Elementals are blank slates until a living creature intereacts with them.
Message no. 3
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:28:13 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:32 AM 9/10/96 -0500, Steven wrote:

>>If you look at the magic sourcebook for ED, elementals there are not
>>something you just whistle up to perform two or three services for you
>>before you kick them out of the door again. SR's magic level is still
>>rising, so this could/would be the future for elementals in SR as well.
>>
>>Although what I've been wondering about is how anyone found out that it
>>was possible (let alone how) to summon elementals in the first place...
>
>It was all those RPG's of course.
>Everyone knows they contain real satanic magic rituals! :-)

Oh, you played "Dark Dungeons" too and used the spells to make your parents
buy you more gaming materials?

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 4
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:04:53 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:03 PM 9/10/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>If you look at the magic sourcebook for ED, elementals there are not
>something you just whistle up to perform two or three services for you
>before you kick them out of the door again. SR's magic level is still
>rising, so this could/would be the future for elementals in SR as well.

I think that's due to the "belief shapes magic" theory, which states that
the caster's beliefs affect the magic he casts. Since everyone in the 5th
world thinks elementals are mindless, that's how they appear.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 5
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:32:36 -0500 (EST)
>At 12:03 PM 9/10/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>
>>If you look at the magic sourcebook for ED, elementals there are not
>>something you just whistle up to perform two or three services for you
>>before you kick them out of the door again. SR's magic level is still
>>rising, so this could/would be the future for elementals in SR as well.
>
>I think that's due to the "belief shapes magic" theory, which states that
>the caster's beliefs affect the magic he casts. Since everyone in the 5th
>world thinks elementals are mindless, that's how they appear.
>
>--
>
That's an excellent point, and also explains why Elementals get more
personality the more you use them. Let me explain...

Ok, It seems tome that I got this idea somewhere, but not sure where. It
seems to me that the longer an elemental is in service to a mage, the more
personality and more intelligence that spirit has. Since, in general, most
mages see elementals as mindless spirits of <whatever>, then that is how
they appear. However, since they are not mindless, regardless of how we
shape them, they are going to have some of there true personality and
intelligence push there way through the shape we force them into...
Interesting thoughts...

Thanx for listening...;)





Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 6
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:43:08 -0500 (EST)
>At 11:32 AM 9/10/96 -0500, Steven wrote:
>
>>>If you look at the magic sourcebook for ED, elementals there are not
>>>something you just whistle up to perform two or three services for you
>>>before you kick them out of the door again. SR's magic level is still
>>>rising, so this could/would be the future for elementals in SR as well.
>>>
>>>Although what I've been wondering about is how anyone found out that it
>>>was possible (let alone how) to summon elementals in the first place...
>>
>>It was all those RPG's of course.
>>Everyone knows they contain real satanic magic rituals! :-)
>
>Oh, you played "Dark Dungeons" too and used the spells to make your parents
>buy you more gaming materials?

Sure did, and even now that I'm a deacon in a strict Baptist church I still
get some morons that like to tell me how evil my hobby is.
I usually just ask them to tell me why, and then ask how they know. Not a
one has ever had any logical argument, much less any 1st hand experience
with RPG's.
Did my Senior thesis on Christianity and RPG's at Bible College.
Thankfully there are enough SANE people in this world that a lot of my profs
came around to my way of thinking! :-) (That RPG's aren't the problem -
crazy people are the problem! [In a very small nutshell.])
Unfortunately, I still haven't figured out how to get the parents to buy
gamin materials . . .:-)
And before anyone flames me telling me how backward my faith is - Hey we
ain't perfect, and some of us are trying!


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Help! The toad is kicking my butt!"
Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:12:31 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 2:43/11 Sep 96...

> Sure did, and even now that I'm a deacon in a strict Baptist church I still
> get some morons that like to tell me how evil my hobby is.
> I usually just ask them to tell me why, and then ask how they know. Not a
> one has ever had any logical argument, much less any 1st hand experience
> with RPG's.

Hadn't you figured that one out already? The way I see it, most of the
people who are screaming their lungs out against something, only do so
because their leaders tell them to. For example, no one in Iran has read
that Salman Rushdie book whose title has slipped my mind, I guarantee you
that, but still they want him dead. The same with burning records, books,
and so on.

> Unfortunately, I still haven't figured out how to get the parents to buy
> gamin materials . . .:-)

I think you don't have to be a christian to have that problem :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:45:09 -0500
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>Since, in general, most mages see elementals as mindless spirits of <whatever>,
>then that is how they appear. However, since they are not mindless, regardless
>of how we shape them, they are going to have some of there true personality
>and intelligence push there way through the shape we force them into...
>Interesting thoughts...

One interesting thought I have been toying with is this: Astral Space is a place of
thought, spirit, and emotion, right? It's rules are very different from physical
space AND poorly understood. What if one of the rules was: any sufficiently
complex construct in astral space eventually becomes conscious. After all, the
main book states that spells act as living things. A high powered spell locked or
quickened for a few years might turn into a spirit of a very odd sort, or at least
develope a personality. Higher powered spirits develope thoughts and emotions
because they live in astral space, and you just can't help it there--EVERYTHING
developes thoughts and emotions.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 9
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: [SR2] Spirit Appearance -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:15:00 -0500 (EST)
>One interesting thought I have been toying with is this: Astral Space is a
place of
>thought, spirit, and emotion, right? It's rules are very different from
physical
>space AND poorly understood. What if one of the rules was: any sufficiently
>complex construct in astral space eventually becomes conscious. After all, the
>main book states that spells act as living things. A high powered spell
locked or
>quickened for a few years might turn into a spirit of a very odd sort, or
at least
>develope a personality. Higher powered spirits develope thoughts and emotions
>because they live in astral space, and you just can't help it there--EVERYTHING
>developes thoughts and emotions.
>
>
Ohhhh, I like, I like... You could do some fun stuff. What happens when
that Armor spell tha mage has been wearing lterally non-stop for three years
starts developing consciousness...<evil grin>

And before anyone starts telling me why this isn't possible, all I can say
is, Who Cares? It's going to happen in one of my games before long...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)

Further Reading

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