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Message no. 1
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:23:15 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:08 PM 8/5/96 -0600, Ahz wrote:
>>On 5 Aug 96 at 14:24, Marc A Renouf wrote:

>>[bad karma]
>>
>>> Just one, but it's one I've made before. I have a hard time
>>> cramming any kind of morality down my players throats. What exactly
>>> constitutes an "unjust" killing? [big snip]

>Bad Karma is simply a measure of deeds. The kind of deeds that are generally
>considered disharmonious to the awakened world.

[blah blah blah *snip*]

When I first read about this idea, I had my doubts, but after your nebulous
pointless missive, I'm now convinced it's a lame GM's excuse to screw over
his players for "bad behavior". being naughty has its own consequences, and
doesn't require another AD&D-ish game mechanic either.

For those who care, you never answered the question "How is it used?".

Oh yeah, background counts have nothing to do with karma! You forgot about
churches and other nice places having background counts.

BTW, what the fuck is this "Neutral Karma" you mentioned? Never mind, I
don't want to know...

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 2
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 15:36:20 +1000 (EST)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:

> >Bad Karma is simply a measure of deeds. The kind of deeds that are generally
> >considered disharmonious to the awakened world.
>
> [blah blah blah *snip*]
>
> When I first read about this idea, I had my doubts, but after your nebulous
> pointless missive, I'm now convinced it's a lame GM's excuse to screw over
> his players for "bad behavior". being naughty has its own consequences, and
> doesn't require another AD&D-ish game mechanic either.

Here Here !!!


Ray.
Message no. 3
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:40:22 GMT + 2:00
@ >>On 5 Aug 96 at 14:24, Marc A Renouf wrote:
@
@ >>[bad karma]
@ >>
@ >>> Just one, but it's one I've made before. I have a hard time
@ >>> cramming any kind of morality down my players throats. What exactly
@ >>> constitutes an "unjust" killing? [big snip]
@
@ >Bad Karma is simply a measure of deeds. The kind of deeds that are generally
@
@ >considered disharmonious to the awakened world.
@
@ [blah blah blah *snip*]
@
@ When I first read about this idea, I had my doubts, but after your nebulous
@ pointless missive, I'm now convinced it's a lame GM's excuse to screw over
@ his players for "bad behavior". being naughty has its own consequences, and
@ doesn't require another AD&D-ish game mechanic either.

Agreed. Anyway, in the shadows almost anything goes. There is
also a problem, what about the character who has a psychological
problem ie a dwarven mage-hater such as my character, if my character
kills a mage in cold blood as far as my character is concerned it was
in a good cause, remove the problems of the world. In giving Bad
Karma the you would have to decide whether to assign it from the
point of view of the character or from general concensus. In either
case the results would be a stiffeling of the role-playing aspect.

What one must consider is that for the most part Shadowrunners
are a desperate bunch who very lives depend on how they act, thus the
individual who kills lonely citizens for fun obviously will
eventually bring some pressure to bear, even if it is only a lunch
mob.

Talking of breaking the laws, in a recent survey of our
characters we came to the result that we have broken every single law
in mentioned in SR excluding rape. So by general consensus we should
have tons of bad karma.








Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 19:05:23 +1100
> Talking of breaking the laws, in a recent survey of our
>characters we came to the result that we have broken every single law
>in mentioned in SR excluding rape. So by general consensus we should
>have tons of bad karma.

Speak for yourself... I threw the character of one of my players into
jail for rape. Not to long afterwards, I stopped playing with the guy
altogether.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 5
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 08:22:04 -0600 (CST)
>> Talking of breaking the laws, in a recent survey of our
>>characters we came to the result that we have broken every single law
>>in mentioned in SR excluding rape. So by general consensus we should
>>have tons of bad karma.

Laws are not the issue with bad karma. Jaywalking is against the law, but
that generates no bad karma. It is a gm/roleplaying issue. Stepping on a
cats head for no reason generates bad karma, not geeking a mass murderer.
Vampires accumulate their victims bad karma, as well as get bad karma from
killing unwilling victims.

Get a grip....


Ahz
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:58:13 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > Talking of breaking the laws, in a recent survey of our
> >characters we came to the result that we have broken every single law
> >in mentioned in SR excluding rape. So by general consensus we should
> >have tons of bad karma.
>
> Speak for yourself... I threw the character of one of my players into
> jail for rape. Not to long afterwards, I stopped playing with the guy
> altogether.

This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find
rape the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like
any other encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's.
The PC plotted revenge...
The big thing to remember here is that acting in character does
not necessarily imply that the players is a bad person. Role-playing is
by definition a fictitious setting. People should not be punished for
fictitious crimes. When it's *out* of character, however, it's just
plain in poor taste. But like all things, it depends on how you run your
campaign.

Marc ("There's such a thing as 'justifiable homicide'. There's *no* such
thing as 'justifiable rape.'")
Message no. 7
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:34:34 -0600 (CST)
>Marc ("There's such a thing as 'justifiable homicide'. There's *no* such
> thing as 'justifiable rape.'")
>
Excellent Quote. Thank you.
Message no. 8
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid! -Reply
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:38:12 +0200
I've got to agree with you on this. Characters I play generally behave in a
manner I never would. As an orthodox Jew I would never worship
multiple gods, kill for gain, break the law, have pre-marital sex, eat
unkosher food, drive on the sabath etc. However, my characters do
these things and other actions I personally would consider abhorrent.
The thing to remember is that the character and the player are two
separate entities, role playing exists to take on the role and act out the
actions of that other individual. What happens in the game should never
be carried out into real life to affect relationships between friends. Thats
the thing to remember most, that personal morality should not affect game
morality.

Marc Lipshitz

>>> Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu> 6/August/1996 07:58pm
>>>
This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find rape
the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like any other
encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's. The
PC plotted revenge...
The big thing to remember here is that acting in character does
not necessarily imply that the players is a bad person. Role-playing is by
definition a fictitious setting. People should not be punished for fictitious
crimes. When it's *out* of character, however, it's just plain in poor
taste. But like all things, it depends on how you run your campaign.
Message no. 9
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:52:10 GMT + 2:00
@ >> Talking of breaking the laws, in a recent survey of our
@ >>characters we came to the result that we have broken every single law
@ >>in mentioned in SR excluding rape. So by general consensus we should
@ >>have tons of bad karma.
@
@ Laws are not the issue with bad karma. Jaywalking is against the law, but
@ that generates no bad karma. It is a gm/roleplaying issue. Stepping on a
@ cats head for no reason generates bad karma, not geeking a mass murderer.
@ Vampires accumulate their victims bad karma, as well as get bad karma from
@ killing unwilling victims.
@
@ Get a grip....

I wrote that <shakes head, must stop drinking that coffee> ;) I
think what I ment to say came out incorrectly. <Rephrase Mode On>
What I ment to say was that it was my perception from that post that
Bad karma is directly linked to the general consensus on the
morallity of various acts from the perspective from the population at
large. By that definition our character would have large amounts of
Bad karma <Rephraze mode off> However after reading several posts
(and this one) I percieve my error in that I took the concept
slightly out of context.

Okay I do I put this. Using the example of the Vampire, the
vampire gains bad karma from the fact that it drains (and hence
kills) its (unwilling) victims. By the same token if a character has
to kill Guard George because he is in the way and will raise the
alarm in the next phaze, then he recieves Bad Karma. Yet this can be
considered survival, and usually survival has not degree of morallity
attached to it. Using a bit of a circular argument, the vampire by
the fact that he kills his victim as an indirect result of his will
to survive then he would not have to recieve any bad karma.

Of course as mentioned it is a role playing aspect, hence the
character who steps on cats heads because he hates cats, has both
arms missing etc would not recieve bad karma.

Somehow I think I am discussing two issues at the same time.









Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 10
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:55:58 GMT + 2:00
@ > Speak for yourself... I threw the character of one of my players into
@ > jail for rape. Not to long afterwards, I stopped playing with the guy
@ > altogether.
@
@ This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find
@ rape the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
@ roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like
@ any other encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
@ involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's.
@ The PC plotted revenge...
@ The big thing to remember here is that acting in character does
@ not necessarily imply that the players is a bad person. Role-playing is
@ by definition a fictitious setting. People should not be punished for
@ fictitious crimes. When it's *out* of character, however, it's just
@ plain in poor taste. But like all things, it depends on how you run your
@ campaign.
@
@ Marc ("There's such a thing as 'justifiable homicide'. There's *no* such
@ thing as 'justifiable rape.'")

I cannot agree with you more. To give an example from my
experience with AD%D, we played two women, three males. The one woman
was a looker (CHR18), the woman was forever getting pregnant from the
repeated rape by two of the males (I played the other female). After
the third time I quit the group. Role-playing did not exist.



Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 96 19:21:40 +1100
>> Speak for yourself... I threw the character of one of my players into
>> jail for rape. Not to long afterwards, I stopped playing with the guy
>> altogether.
>
> This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find
>rape the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
>roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like
>any other encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
>involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's.
>The PC plotted revenge...

He didn't do it because he was in character... he did it because he was
bored. That's sick.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 12
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:29:17 GMT + 2:00
@ >> Speak for yourself... I threw the character of one of my players into
@ >> jail for rape. Not to long afterwards, I stopped playing with the guy
@ >> altogether.
@ >
@ > This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find
@ >rape the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
@ >roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like
@ >any other encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
@ >involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's.
@ >The PC plotted revenge...
@
@ He didn't do it because he was in character... he did it because he was
@ bored. That's sick.

Well Err I don't know what to say other than a) I am glad I don't
know the person and b) I cannot connect in any way with his mindset
or mentality. There is a quote I heard a long time ago it goes along
the lines of

'physical wounds may heal but emotional wounds only fester'


Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 13
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:01:58 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > This is one that makes people squeamish. While I personally find
> >rape the most detestable crime on the planet, I'm much more tolerant in
> >roleplaying session. If it's *in character* then I will treat it like
> >any other encounter. It may have adverse consequences for PC's and NPC's
> >involved. Also of note is the fact that I've had PC's raped by NPC's.
> >The PC plotted revenge...

[snip explanation of abstraction between role-playing and "real-life"]

> He didn't do it because he was in character... he did it because he was
> bored. That's sick.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? It doesn't sound
like it. If you want to clarify or want the circumstances behind the
situation explained, contact me over private e-mail. Until then, do
*not* label me or my players "sick" from a position of blissful ignorance.

Marc
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 96 18:39:52 +1100
>On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
[ Stuff about rape snipped]

>> He didn't do it because he was in character... he did it because he was
>> bored. That's sick.
>
> Do you have any idea what you're talking about? It doesn't sound
>like it. If you want to clarify or want the circumstances behind the
>situation explained, contact me over private e-mail. Until then, do
>*not* label me or my players "sick" from a position of blissful ignorance.
>
>Marc

Marc, follow the thread, please. It was MY story about MY player that got
this going. Now, did _you_ have any idea what you were talking about?


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:28:25 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Marc, follow the thread, please. It was MY story about MY player that got
> this going. Now, did _you_ have any idea what you were talking about?

Correct you are. However, in your response, the only pronoun
used was "he." I mistakenly thought that you were referring to *my*
player rather than your own. Sorry for the confusion, and my apologies.

Marc (ah, the joys of the English language...)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [SR2] The Good, the Bad, and the stupid!, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!