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Message no. 1
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:12:34 -0400
> I get the impression that you feel that SR3 was not needed. Think
> again
>

Now, this is the real issue. I'm not really set in my ways when it comes to
SR3. So, tell me, why is it better than SR2? Any opinions are welcome, as
they will provide me with ammunition when I make my decision to adopt or
reject SR3. The better the justifications, the better my chances of
convincing players and GM that it's "the right thing to do."

So, why is SR3 better than SR2? Why was it necessary? And what isn't better?
What's worse? I'd like to hear people's opinions.

And, since I don't often ask for other people's opinions on anything--I've
got plenty of my own, thanks very much--break out a bottle of Champagne on
me.
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:56:25 -0400
At 11:12 PM 9/8/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote these timeless words:
>> I get the impression that you feel that SR3 was not needed. Think
>> again
>>
>
>Now, this is the real issue. I'm not really set in my ways when it comes to
>SR3. So, tell me, why is it better than SR2? Any opinions are welcome, as
>they will provide me with ammunition when I make my decision to adopt or
>reject SR3. The better the justifications, the better my chances of
>convincing players and GM that it's "the right thing to do."
>
>So, why is SR3 better than SR2? Why was it necessary? And what isn't better?
>What's worse? I'd like to hear people's opinions.
>
Well, in all honesty your milage will vary on these answers as there are a
few people who like the things from SR2 better. BUT... Here goes, some of
the changes that were made, and why they were made...

First off, one of the biggest reasons for SR3 wasn;t even Rules related.
It was a matter of what a new Player/GM had to buy to use the book. The
Rigging and Decking rules in the SR2 rulebook were now useless, having been
superceded by the superior Rigger 2 and VR2 rules (Though VR 2 needs badly
edited and rewritten). Magic was a fubared Cluster Frag (Look in the logs
for the FAB/Astral Space debate in about August/September of 1996 for a
great example of why Magic needed fixed). And the book simply needed a
nice overhaul.

Going with rules...

Skill System was changed over. Old system used a goofy Skill Web that
wasn;t bad, you followed skills along various "paths" and each pip that you
hit was a modifier. However, one problem with this is that theoretically
(And often jokingly said) you could default driving skills to firearms, or
pretty much ANYTHING for a munchkin to Firearms.

The new systems uses a much simpler breakdown of linked skills, and links
them to an attribute, making it harder to raise skills above the linked
attribute. Personally, I love this for sheer game balance. And it makes
defaults easier, in general, and prevents defaulting one skill to something
TOTALLY unrelated and unrealistic.

Initiative was changed to balance things out. The Super Sammy doesn;t go 5
times before the mage, and a lone Sammy against a gang of 6 uncybered
Street Thugs actually has a challenge on his hands. Once upon a time, if
you didn;t have speed enhancements, you were probably dead. Especially if
you were the mage.

Along those lines was the changes to the amount that combat pool refreshed.
Instead of refreshing every action, it refreshes when you roll Initiative
again. Using the same Sammy vs. Thugs example above, That sammy has only a
single pool to defend against all 6 thugs, as well as to attack back.
Chances are, he's gonna die, unless he's got a LOT of Armor, Skill, and Body.

Let's see... Magic was simplified and clarified so that the Magic Rules
followed the same type of system that everything else did. Astral Space
was cleaned up and clarified so that most of it actually makes sense now.

Overall, there were a lot of changes to the system that were designed to
clarify and simplify the game, as well as restore balance ro the game.

And in general, with the exception of a (very) few people who just don;t
feel like buying a whole new set of books, the biggest reason people have
(and won't admit to) for using SR2 over SR3 is that it kills the power of
their characters.

And another great reson for using SR3 over SR2 is that SR2 isn;t being
supported anymore <grin>

Bull


--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:49:21 +0200
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 09 September 1999 06:55
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]

>So, why is SR3 better than SR2? Why was it necessary? And what isn't
better?
>What's worse? I'd like to hear people's opinions.
>
>And, since I don't often ask for other people's opinions on
anything--I've
>got plenty of my own, thanks very much--break out a bottle of
Champagne on
>me.

Well, we have a new initative system that some people like ( I do ),
Matric rules from VR2 and rules from Rigger 2 in the main book, better
art for the sample characters, a better magic system (esp. since
MitS), a better character creation system, with the priorities more
balanced, knowledge skills, more gear and toys brught in from older
books etc etc etc...

You want my opinion? A better game overall, and a great buy. I believe
the latest printings even have the errata fixed up and everything :)
Just read a friends copy and see

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 4
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:25:17 -0500
> Well, we have a new initative system that some people like ( I do ),
> Matric rules from VR2 and rules from Rigger 2 in the main book,
>
Not a great selling point if you already own these books.

> better art for the sample characters,
>
That's hardly a reason to invest in a new copy of the rules. Cyberpunk 2020
also redid their sample character art and I didn't see anybody running to
pick up that one.

> a better magic system (esp. since MitS),
>
> a better character creation system, with the priorities more
> balanced, knowledge skills, more gear and toys brught in from older
> books etc etc etc...
>
Gear that you might already own. Knowledge skills are nice though.
Message no. 5
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:27:49 -0400
Abortion_engine inquired:
> So, why is SR3 better than SR2? Why was it necessary? And what
> isn't better?
> What's worse? I'd like to hear people's opinions.
>
> And, since I don't often ask for other people's opinions on anything--I've
> got plenty of my own, thanks very much--break out a bottle of Champagne on
> me.

Personally I like the new flexible spell power levels and the revised
version of spell locks. I prefer the new initiative system (allows some of
the slower players to do stuff sooner in a way) along with the new (old?)
dodge test system (sometimes it's better to try and dodge or just try and
shrug it). I also like the fact that Adepts are a little faster.

Some points off the cuff. As a whole I did like the change to SR3.

;)

Smilin' Jack (who is hoping M&M isn't going to totally screw up Street Sams)
Message no. 6
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:03:30 -0400
At 10:25 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Mark Fender wrote these timeless words:
>> Well, we have a new initative system that some people like ( I do ),
>> Matric rules from VR2 and rules from Rigger 2 in the main book,
>>
>Not a great selling point if you already own these books.
>
Yeah, but say you had just sat in on a Shadowrun game somewhere (Say, at a
convention), and you were interested in picking up the basic book to start
a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.

That right there was the biggest reason for the change. When 2 of your 5
"classes" of character (Cyber, Decker, Mage, Phys Ad, and Rigger, to
clarify) can't even be used with the main rulebook, something needs fixed.

And yes, you could argue that VR2 and Rigger 2 were not necessary. You
could use the old system. After all, they served all us for 1st and most
of 2nd edition, right? Well, right, BUT... Since none of the new products
support the old system, you're gonna be lost.

And, since we have to make these chages anyways, lets clean up the system.
Fix some of the stuff that's been driving all the Shadowrunners out tehre
nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all the
stuff that simply doesn;t work, or is down rigt broken.

Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you that
don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 7
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:47:44 -0500
> At 10:25 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Mark Fender wrote these timeless words:
> >> Well, we have a new initative system that some people like ( I do ),
> >> Matric rules from VR2 and rules from Rigger 2 in the main book,
> >>
> >Not a great selling point if you already own these books.
> >
> Yeah, but say you had just sat in on a Shadowrun game somewhere (Say, at a
> convention), and you were interested in picking up the basic book to start
> a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
> since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.
>
Someone mentioned this earlier but a SR2 Expanded would have sufficed.
Replace the appropriate sections with the new Matrix and Rigger rules, bound
it in a hardcover, and, voila!, a brand new book that would get snapped up
by a good percentage of the SR gaming population, as well as those newbies.

[snip]

> And, since we have to make these chages anyways, lets clean up the system.
> Fix some of the stuff that's been driving all the Shadowrunners out tehre
> nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all
> the
> stuff that simply doesn;t work, or is down rigt broken.
>
Well, I guess I'm atypical for this list, but I'm not into gaming the
micromillmeter difference in your ammunition that make a whole heck of a lot
of difference, nor was I into analyzing the very substance of the Astral
Plane, so I guess all these little fixes were lost on me. What were they?
What changed? I guess I missed those in my quick read through of SR3. I'd
love to be proven wrong on this, seeing as how I've already purchased the
book.

> Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you that
> don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.
>
Bull, read this statement again. Whether we think it was necessary or not,
it was. So, no one's allowed to disagree with you?
Message no. 8
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:13:41 -0400
At 08:47 AM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>[snip]
> > Yeah, but say you had just sat in on a Shadowrun game somewhere (Say, at a
> > convention), and you were interested in picking up the basic book to start
> > a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
> > since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.
> >
>Someone mentioned this earlier but a SR2 Expanded would have sufficed.
>Replace the appropriate sections with the new Matrix and Rigger rules, bound
>it in a hardcover, and, voila!, a brand new book that would get snapped up
>by a good percentage of the SR gaming population, as well as those newbies.

Okay, so you throw in a little bit of different artwork and change the
typeface, and change the name to SR3. So what's the difference between SR2
Expanded and SR3? What you suggested is a big part of what they did for 3rd
edition.

>[snip]
>
> > And, since we have to make these chages anyways, lets clean up the system.
> > Fix some of the stuff that's been driving all the Shadowrunners out tehre
> > nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> > initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all
> > the
> > stuff that simply doesn;t work, or is down rigt broken.
> >
>Well, I guess I'm atypical for this list, but I'm not into gaming the
>micromillmeter difference in your ammunition that make a whole heck of a lot
>of difference, nor was I into analyzing the very substance of the Astral
>Plane, so I guess all these little fixes were lost on me. What were they?
>What changed? I guess I missed those in my quick read through of SR3. I'd
>love to be proven wrong on this, seeing as how I've already purchased the
>book.

They really didn't do anything with the differences in ammuntion. They
changes the way magic worked a bit so there were less gray areas around
astral space. No more problems with grounding, wards are easier, physads
were improved more for their playability. They are a lot of small little
changes that give a better feel to the whole feel. IMHO there's a good
chance that if you have any problems with magic in SR2, they were fixed in SR3.

If you already have the book, I'd suggest that you read through it again.
There are a lot of good things in there.

> > Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you that
> > don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.
> >
>Bull, read this statement again. Whether we think it was necessary or not,
>it was. So, no one's allowed to disagree with you?

I think that majority of people out there think it was necessary to clean
up a lot of the bad rules out there, and especially get everything into one
book that you could start playing right away. At the previous point, that
was not possible, and now it is.

As to the question of do you like the job they did or not, that's open to
much more open interpretation.



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 9
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:32:12 -0400
> a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
> since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.

Obsolete by who's definition. I like Rigger 1/SR 2 vehilce rules, and the
basic rules work for the Matrix for our purpose.

> nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all

For the Initiative, they GOT IT RIGHT. He who shoots first shoots last.
For magic, thier engine needs a little help, but there are things that are
fundamentally screwed up in the roleplaying aspect by FASA cannon. If what
I call the Dreamtime is what they call the Astral, then they boned it
entirely. And they didn't talk to anyone who is a practicing shamanist
about how Spirits and thier humans, and practitioners, work, nor did they
get spirit interpritations very correct. (Anyone who calls Raven a coward
is welcome to make that mistake with me- once. FYI, Wolf and Grandmother
are either sisters or differnt faecs for the same person.) They should
have spent 20 bucks for a book, read it, and then started with what the
Spirits mean.
(Don't ask me to explain this stuff, becuase unless you've experinced it,
you won't have a common frame of refernce. I grew up with it, and I didn't
understand 0.001% of it until I experinced it.)

> Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you that
> don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.

OK, simple question: could you have lived with SR2? I'm will to be you
did for a number of years. SR2 works fine for most things. And I'm
willing to bet that at least half of the groups out there are using it.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:41:25 EDT
In a message dated 9/10/1999 9:33:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> > a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
> > since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.
>
> Obsolete by who's definition. I like Rigger 1/SR 2 vehilce rules, and the
> basic rules work for the Matrix for our purpose.

And for many other players, I'm sure they did work as well. But, as you and
many of those others are "older, veteran, players", you of course had all
those books already and didn't need to have them compiled, did you?

> > nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> > initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all
>
> For the Initiative, they GOT IT RIGHT. He who shoots first shoots last.

And, in many cases, this is *STILL* the situation as it stands.

> For magic, thier engine needs a little help, but there are things that are
> fundamentally screwed up in the roleplaying aspect by FASA cannon. If what
> I call the Dreamtime is what they call the Astral, then they boned it
> entirely. And they didn't talk to anyone who is a practicing shamanist
> about how Spirits and thier humans, and practitioners, work, nor did they
> get spirit interpritations very correct. (Anyone who calls Raven a coward
> is welcome to make that mistake with me- once. FYI, Wolf and Grandmother
> are either sisters or differnt faecs for the same person.) They should
> have spent 20 bucks for a book, read it, and then started with what the
> Spirits mean.

Kevin, I'm going to calmly say this. You are speaking out of the mind of
someone who has a strongly biased viewpoint and refuses to let alternative
views find their way. I'm not saying your views are wrong, they just do NOT
work for a game mechanic. I do know what I'm saying, and believe it or not,
Steve K. probably has a pretty good grasp on "Magic" as well.

Spirit Paths, in the manner of which you are speaking, are NOT something
readily playable in terms of "Game Mechanics". Sure, as a role playing
situation, they are incredibly helpful, and incredibly insightful even. But
not as a game mechanic.

> (Don't ask me to explain this stuff, becuase unless you've experinced it,
> you won't have a common frame of refernce. I grew up with it, and I didn't
> understand 0.001% of it until I experinced it.)

Okay, I'll ask you to explain it (via PRIVATE EMAIL), because buddy, you are
NOT unique in your experiences nor are you unique in your backgrounds. There
are a lot of people out there, and each and every one of them have
experiences that are both uniquely their own and unquestionable shared.
People jump all over me whenever I get on a "High Horse" but rarely ever do
they consider what exactly it is they are saying, let alone the kind of
person/people they may be actually saying it to. Some of us may be military
afficianados (like Paul J., or even yourself), but there are some of us that
are afficianados of MULTIPLE belief and occult structures beyond just a given
viewpoint. Don't let words like "Shamanism" color your viewpoint of the
game. The term only works *barely* in a game viewpoint. IMPO, I think
"Mysticism" would have been better, less "racist" or
"restricted" a statement
(shrug).

> > Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you
that
> > don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.
>
> OK, simple question: could you have lived with SR2? I'm will to be you
> did for a number of years. SR2 works fine for most things. And I'm
> willing to bet that at least half of the groups out there are using it.

Oh sure, we've lived with SR2 for a long time, just as you had. However,
we've also, just as you probably have, come up with a slew of House Rules and
other things in order for the game "we" called Shadowrun to be more playable.
As the SR3 mechanics stand, they are easier to play and encourage MORE
people to play (the initiative system is just one example) from the outset,
without the house rules. From so many peole who have commented on this
issue, the problems seem to always stem from "but that's not the way we've
done it and we don't want to change" mentality. Your own voicing included
here.

Does it (the game) work for pure realism? Actually yes. But you need to use
those optional rules in the books more often.

For instance, if I were to shoot at someone, the concept of "Wound Shock"
(Knockdown) isn't commonly being taken into consideration. Sure, wound
modifiers exist, but if someone gets shot with a pistol (most calibres), they
are going to feel *something* of some kind. That IMO is likely going to make
that person slow down considerably in a real fight. Enough so that whomever
got the first *connecting* shot is likely going to be able to continue to
pound the ever living out of a given target with often minimal resistance.

But, in order for a game mechanic to be both functional and playable, it has
to allow for people and their PC's to get a blow/word in edgewise. This is
so for magic, melee, and any other form of mayhem as well.

You have your opinions, and they are obviously very established ones. Bull
and I both have ours. In this instance, we just don't agree with yours.

-K
Message no. 11
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:38:36 -0500
> > > Yeah, but say you had just sat in on a Shadowrun game somewhere (Say,
> at a
> > > convention), and you were interested in picking up the basic book to
> start
> > > a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two
> books
> > > since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.
> > >
> >Someone mentioned this earlier but a SR2 Expanded would have sufficed.
> >Replace the appropriate sections with the new Matrix and Rigger rules,
> bound
> >it in a hardcover, and, voila!, a brand new book that would get snapped
> up
> >by a good percentage of the SR gaming population, as well as those
> newbies.
>
> Okay, so you throw in a little bit of different artwork and change the
> typeface, and change the name to SR3. So what's the difference between SR2
>
> Expanded and SR3? What you suggested is a big part of what they did for
> 3rd
> edition.
>
Except that along with SR3, they changed some niggling little rules, changed
initiative, and changed character creation. Not just a few small changes.
Not to mention that we're then induated with products of stuff already
published that needed to be published again because they changed editions.
It's not just a $30 investment. It becomes a $66 investment (based on buying
SR3, MitS, and SRComp).

> >[snip]
> >
> > > And, since we have to make these chages anyways, lets clean up the
> system.
> > > Fix some of the stuff that's been driving all the Shadowrunners out
> tehre
> > > nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> > > initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix
> all
> > > the
> > > stuff that simply doesn;t work, or is down rigt broken.
> > >
> >Well, I guess I'm atypical for this list, but I'm not into gaming the
> >micromillmeter difference in your ammunition that make a whole heck of a
> lot
> >of difference, nor was I into analyzing the very substance of the Astral
> >Plane, so I guess all these little fixes were lost on me. What were they?
> >What changed? I guess I missed those in my quick read through of SR3. I'd
> >love to be proven wrong on this, seeing as how I've already purchased the
> >book.
>
> They really didn't do anything with the differences in ammuntion. They
> changes the way magic worked a bit so there were less gray areas around
> astral space. No more problems with grounding, wards are easier, physads
> were improved more for their playability. They are a lot of small little
> changes that give a better feel to the whole feel. IMHO there's a good
> chance that if you have any problems with magic in SR2, they were fixed in
> SR3.
>
Sorry, never had any problems with magic in SR2. But, like I said, I'm not a
niggling little rules-lawyer so I probably missed the fine points. My loss?
I doubt it.

> If you already have the book, I'd suggest that you read through it again.
> There are a lot of good things in there.
>
But, but it's so thick!! Does anyone have any definite magic changes they'd
care to mention?

> >
Message no. 12
From: Christopher Pratt valen@*******.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:10:24 -0400
>
> Initiative was changed to balance things out. The Super Sammy doesn;t go
5
> times before the mage, and a lone Sammy against a gang of 6 uncybered
> Street Thugs actually has a challenge on his hands. Once upon a time, if
> you didn;t have speed enhancements, you were probably dead. Especially if
> you were the mage.
>
> Along those lines was the changes to the amount that combat pool
refreshed.
> Instead of refreshing every action, it refreshes when you roll Initiative
> again. Using the same Sammy vs. Thugs example above, That sammy has only
a
> single pool to defend against all 6 thugs, as well as to attack back.
> Chances are, he's gonna die, unless he's got a LOT of Armor, Skill, and
Body.
>

or a light machine gun :)

Christopher Pratt
valen@*******.com
Message no. 13
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:02:03 -0400
>many of those others are "older, veteran, players", you of course had all
>those books already and didn't need to have them compiled, did you?

Actually, no. I've only been playing SR for about a year now, and I had
to borrow my college's club's copy of RBB and photocopy the parts I wanted.

>Kevin, I'm going to calmly say this. You are speaking out of the mind of
>someone who has a strongly biased viewpoint and refuses to let alternative

No need to be calm, I admit that I'm baised. It is the same bias that
cuases me to lower heavy pistols by -3 Power.

>are a lot of people out there, and each and every one of them have
>experiences that are both uniquely their own and unquestionable shared.

Bingo- that is the reason why I don't try to explain to people, except for
face to face.

>Oh sure, we've lived with SR2 for a long time, just as you had. However,

Longer, no doubt; see above.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 14
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:09:17 -0400 (EDT)
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At 11:38 AM 9/10/99 -0500, Mark Fender wrote:
::If you already have the book, I'd suggest that you read through it
::again. There are a lot of good things in there.
:
:But, but it's so thick!! Does anyone have any definite magic changes
: they'd care to mention?

Well, there's the most obvious one: under SR2, Spell Success Tests
were made by rolling dice equal to the Force of the spell; under SR3,
the spellcaster's Sorcery dice are rolled to determine how successful
the spell is.

This brings use of the Sorcery skill more in line with uses of other
skills, such as Pistols skill, or Computer skill.


Another one of my favorite changes is the PhysAd Power of Improved
Reflexes. Under SR2, there were two separate PhysAd Powers: Increased
Reaction, and Increased Reflexes. The amount of Magic Attribute a
PhysAd would spend on Increased Reflexes started out cheaper when
compared to what a Sammy would pay essence-wise for Wired Reflexes,
but then for levels 2 and 3 Increased Reflexes became comparably more
expensive than Wired. Not only that, but Increased Reflexes provided
_only_ extra initiative dice; to match the +2 Reaction per level, a
PhysAd had to spend even more Magic Attribute on the Increased
Reaction power.

In general, the PhysAd would always be spending more Magic to be
faster than a Sammy would be spending essence. With SR3, Increased
Reaction and Increased Reflexes have been scrapped, in favor of a new
power: Improved Reflexes, which costs the same amount of Adept Power
Points as Wired Reflexes costs essence, and provides identical
benefits.


Those are just two of many changes.

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Message no. 15
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:51:28 -0700
> Well, I guess I'm atypical for this list, but I'm not into gaming the
> micromillmeter difference in your ammunition that make a whole heck of a
lot
> of difference, nor was I into analyzing the very substance of the Astral
> Plane, so I guess all these little fixes were lost on me. What were they?
> What changed? I guess I missed those in my quick read through of SR3. I'd
> love to be proven wrong on this, seeing as how I've already purchased the
> book.

I think most gamers ARE like you, and that's why they re-did certain
magic things. Most natably, there is now NO way for a (purely) astral
target to affect a (purely) physical one. Theres no grounding, but theres
also just a lot more conceptual consistancy in general.

> > Don;t play with SR3 if you don;t want to. But whether the few of you
that
> > don't like SR3 agree or not, it WAS necessary.
> >
> Bull, read this statement again. Whether we think it was necessary or
not,
> it was. So, no one's allowed to disagree with you?

I think Bull meant it was commercially nessecary. Which, given the fact
that SR3 was more succesful even than expected, seems true. Maybe not all
the changes were needed, but the don't seem to have hurt any.

Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 02:16:04 -0700
----------
> From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: RE: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:32 AM
>
> > a game of your own. BUT... Wait! YOu need to pick up these two books
> > since the systems in the Shadowrun 2 book are obsolete.
>
> Obsolete by who's definition. I like Rigger 1/SR 2 vehilce rules, and
the
> basic rules work for the Matrix for our purpose.
>
> > nuts. Magic is one big mess, only the super-cyber-sammies like the
> > initiative system, and most groups have about 30 house rules to fix all
>
> For the Initiative, they GOT IT RIGHT. He who shoots first shoots last.

> For magic, <snip> They should
> have spent 20 bucks for a book, read it, and then started with what the
> Spirits mean.
> (Don't ask me to explain this stuff, becuase unless you've experinced
it,
> you won't have a common frame of refernce. I grew up with it, and I
didn't
> understand 0.001% of it until I experinced it.)

If you didn't understand it till you lived it, how much would a $20 book
have helped the writter and developer(s)? Honestly, des it matter? Did
they get hermetic magic down right? Who knows? The concepts work withing
the fremwork of the game- you hardly seem upset to consider that a Shaman
might meet a western dragon in astral space, something I'm sure is NOT part
of traditional shamanism.


> OK, simple question: could you have lived with SR2? I'm will to be you
> did for a number of years. SR2 works fine for most things. And I'm
> willing to bet that at least half of the groups out there are using it.

I seriously doubt that more than half of shadowrun players still play SR2,
especially as (afiak) SR3's total sales already exceed SR2 sales. Maybe
1/2 the people who bought SR2 still play it, that is possible- but for that
to mean 1/2 the players play SR2, you'd have to have people buying SR3 and
not playing it. Which would be a damn shame...


Mongoose
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR2 v. SR3 [was: Re: Deciper press release link]
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:51 +0200
According to Mark Fender, at 11:38 on 10 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Not to mention that we're then induated with products of stuff already
> published that needed to be published again because they changed editions.
> It's not just a $30 investment. It becomes a $66 investment (based on buying
> SR3, MitS, and SRComp).

I don't think that's a completely fair comparison. Shadowrun has always
had an advanced magic book (the Grimoire) but you never _needed_ to buy
it. The Companion is another book that regular players might like (I
stress "might" ;) but it's also not required to play.

Whereas with SRII -- well, I don't know about you, but every times I've
tried using the decking rules, I almost ended up throwing the book through
the window out of frustration. The vehicle rules were not quite that bad,
but too fuzzy. VR 2.0 and R2 fix both those nicely, but having them in the
same book as the other essential rules makes things a lot easier on new
and experienced players alike.

--
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Further Reading

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