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From:	"Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:	[SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:07:30 -0500

Message no. 1 Hi, everyone. I've been off-list for quite a while now, but I have
recently rejoined. I apologize if this question has already been
thoroughly discussed and resolved.

Steve, I apologize if you receive this message twice. Also, I wanted to
compliment you on the excellent clarifications and improvements which you
contributed to SR3.

I am currently a bit confused by the following passage from the Adept
Powers section of SR3:

---Begin excerpt from SR3
Adepts have acess to powers, magical abilites which become a natural
part of the adept through study and training. An adept begins the game
with a number of Power Points equal to the adept's Magic Attribute to
"purchase" powers. Each power has a cost in Power Points. Power Points,
once spent, are gone. The adept's choice of powers is permanent.
An adept who loses Magic also loses a corresponding amount of powers, so
an adept who loses a Magic point must also lose one point worth of powers.
The adept's player chooses which powers are lost. An adept cannot have
more levels in a power than the adept's Magic Attribute. For example, an
adept with Magic 4 cannot have more than 4 points worth of powers, none of
which can have more than four levels.
During game play, adepts may purchase additional Power Points at a cost
of 20 Good Karma Points per Power Point.
---End excerpt from SR3
--- all rights of FASA fully respected and hopefully not infringed upon

Frankly, I'm a bit baffled about when and why an adept can purchase new
power points. Initially, an adept starts with a number of power points
equal to his Magic rating. As far as I can tell, the only way to lose
powers is via losing Magic points; thus, the total amount of powers
available to the adept (amount of powers + unspent power points) is always
going to equal the Magic rating. Since an adept's total amount of powers
can never exceed his Magic rating, he can never qualify for additional
power points; thus, he can never legally purchase points.

Obviously, the designers intended for the adept to purchase points for
some reason. Can anyone clue me in as to what this reason is?

Perhaps the designers meant to limit the number of powers which an adept
could purchase by his Magic rating, independantly from limiting the level
of each of the purchased powers. This would allow an adept to have an
array of powers totaling his Magic rating where the level of each power
was less than or equal to his Magic rating but where the total sum of
points spent would exceed his Magic rating. For example, an adept with
Magic 2 could purchase Combat Sense (level 1) and Magic Resistance (level
1) thus exhausting his initial supply of power points. By spending karma,
he could then get more power points at a cost of 20 good karma each.
He could then only invest these power points in increasing the levels of
his existing powers since he already has 2 total points of different
powers. Thus, the adept could decide to invest his first purchased power
point to increase either of his powers to level 2. However, should he
purchase another point later, he could only apply it to the remaining
level 1 power since no single power can exceed his Magic Rating in levels.

Is the the inteded interpretation?

=Glenn

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:51:17 -0400

Message no. 2 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:07 PM 9/25/98 -0500, Glenn wrote:
>I am currently a bit confused by the following passage from the Adept
>Powers section of SR3:
<<Snip>>

>Frankly, I'm a bit baffled about when and why an adept can purchase
new
>power points.

The when part is fairly simple: any time the Adept has has 20 Good
Karma available to spend and the player wishes to spend it for that
purpose.

And now for why: By creating a new stat (power points) for keeping
track of what powers an adept may purchase, and allowing Adepts to
raise that stat without having to raise their Magic Attribute, new
character advancement options are opened up for Adept characters who
wish to have more powers than a starting Adept character is allowed.

Under SR2, with PhysAd powers directly tied to the Magic Atribute, the
only option available for learning new powers was to increase the
Magic Atribute. The only process for this was Initiation.
Unfortunately, Initiation is a highly Karma intensive process, which
offered signifigantly less benifit to a PhysAd then it did to a Full
Mage.

Under SR3's rules, an Adept need not undergo Initiation to learn new
powers. The total amount of power points an adept can have is equal to
the initial 6 points allowed at chargen, plus any points bought
through karma, minus a number equal to the amount of Magic Attribute
losses suffered, if any (when SR3's new magic sourcebook is released,
Grade of Initiation will most likely be added to this total).

This total _can_ be higher than the Adept's current Magic Attribute.
There is a limit on the number of points that can be spent on any
single power, though. The number of points in a single power cannot
exceed the Adept's current Magic Attribute. This encourages Adepts to
diversify as they grow in power, and restricts them from focusing
their energies into a single power past a certain point.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:16:08 -0400

Message no. 3 On Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 09:51:17PM -0400, Paul Gettle wrote:
> This total _can_ be higher than the Adept's current Magic Attribute.
> There is a limit on the number of points that can be spent on any
> single power, though. The number of points in a single power cannot
> exceed the Adept's current Magic Attribute. This encourages Adepts to
> diversify as they grow in power, and restricts them from focusing
> their energies into a single power past a certain point.
>
Small correction: I think it's the LEVEL of the power, not
the number of points put into it, that's limited by Magic Attribute.
Those aren't always in 1-to-1 correlation.

So, to summarize:

Total Power Points = Current Magic Attribute + 1 PP per 20 Karma spent.
Maximum Level per Power = Current Magic Attribute
Maximum Number of Powers = None (except as imposed by Power Point costs)

Oh, and it probably goes without saying, but it /is/ possible
for an Adept to have unspent Power Points. After all, that's the only
way they could buy powers with a cost over 1, other than spending 40+ karma
at once, and it can also be a bit tough to spend /exactly/ 1 point.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:54:01 -0400

Message no. 4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:16 AM 9/26/98 -0400, Sean wrote:
> Small correction: I think it's the LEVEL of the power, not
>the number of points put into it, that's limited by Magic Attribute.
>Those aren't always in 1-to-1 correlation.

Did I say number of points? You're right, that's just plain wrong.

>Maximum Number of Powers = None (except as imposed by Power Point
>costs)

If you stick with what's in the book, there's an implied limit of
around 94 different powers, but if somehow you've drugged your GM into
giving you enough karma to hit that ceiling, we _don't_ want to hear
about it on the list.

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From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:09:39 -0500

Message no. 5 On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:54:01 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>If you stick with what's in the book, there's an implied limit of
>around 94 different powers, but if somehow you've drugged your GM into
>giving you enough karma to hit that ceiling, we _don't_ want to hear
>about it on the list.

How did you come by this implied limit?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." --(Can
anyone place the source?)

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From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:44:00 -0400

Message no. 6 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:09 PM 9/26/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>If you stick with what's in the book, there's an implied limit of
>>around 94 different powers, but if somehow you've drugged your GM
into
>>giving you enough karma to hit that ceiling, we _don't_ want to hear
>>about it on the list.
>
>How did you come by this implied limit?

I counted em. :)

Actually, looking at the book again, I was a bit overzealous in my
counting: I didn't notice that there's a table that lists which skills
you can actually take Improved Ability in, that's going to bring my
total much lower, let me re-count. (I didn't have enough caffiene in
my system when I did the count, and had thought that you could take
Improved Ability for any Active Skill)

I'm sorry, the implied limit is actually around only 47-48 powers, I
was _way_ off before.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:11:20 -0500

Message no. 7 On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:44:00 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 12:09 PM 9/26/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>>If you stick with what's in the book, there's an implied limit of
>>>around 94 different powers, but if somehow you've drugged your GM into
>>>giving you enough karma to hit that ceiling, we _don't_ want to hear
>>>about it on the list.
>>
>>How did you come by this implied limit?

>I counted em. :)
>
<SNIP re-count>
>
>I'm sorry, the implied limit is actually around only 47-48 powers, I
>was _way_ off before.

Does this count purchasing Killing Hands at different levels? (In SR2,
you could have Killing Hand S and Killing Hands M and they were two
seperate powers.) Also, how many different Improved Senses powers does
that include?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
--T-Bone(?)

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From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:47:26 -0700

Message no. 8 :At 12:09 PM 9/26/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
:>>If you stick with what's in the book, there's an implied limit of
:>>around 94 different powers, but if somehow you've drugged your GM
:into
:>>giving you enough karma to hit that ceiling, we _don't_ want to hear
:>>about it on the list.
:>
:>How did you come by this implied limit?
:
:I counted em. :)
:
:Actually, looking at the book again, I was a bit overzealous in my
:counting: I didn't notice that there's a table that lists which skills
:you can actually take Improved Ability in, that's going to bring my
:total much lower, let me re-count. (I didn't have enough caffiene in
:my system when I did the count, and had thought that you could take
:Improved Ability for any Active Skill)
:
:I'm sorry, the implied limit is actually around only 47-48 powers, I
:was _way_ off before.
:

In case that doesn't clear things up, the "obvious" ceiling is that,
in SR3, there is no way to raise an Adepts magic rating. Magic rating is
the ceiling on the rating of any adept power; since their are only so many
adept powers listed, and their max rating is going to be 6 in all cases
(or less, for things with only a few levels, like improved reflexes, which
tops out at 3), their is a point (way off on the horizon) where an adept
can get no more powers- if you go strictly by SR3 BBB only.

Mongoose

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:20:25 -0400

Message no. 9 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:11 PM 9/26/98 -0500, D. Ghost wrote:
>>I'm sorry, the implied limit is actually around only 47-48 powers, I
>>was _way_ off before.
>
>Does this count purchasing Killing Hands at different levels? (In
SR2,
>you could have Killing Hand S and Killing Hands M and they were two
>seperate powers.)

In the BBB3, it doesn't say anywhere you can purchase it at different
levels, so I counted it once. I'm just going with SR3 at the moment,
because if you allow the Killing Hands rule from SR2, you might as
well tally up the powers from SR2 that haven't been included into SR3
yet.

>Also, how many different Improved Senses powers does
>that include?

Nine to ten, depending on if you allow Vision Magnification as "Eagle
Eyes" or not. I suppose if you also threw in echolocation, that'd add
one more to the total.

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From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:39:07 -0400

Message no. 10 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:47 PM 9/26/98 -0700, Mongoose wrote:
> In case that doesn't clear things up, the "obvious" ceiling is
that,
>in SR3, there is no way to raise an Adepts magic rating. Magic
rating is
>the ceiling on the rating of any adept power; since their are only so
many
>adept powers listed, and their max rating is going to be 6 in all
cases
>(or less, for things with only a few levels, like improved reflexes,
which
>tops out at 3), their is a point (way off on the horizon) where an
adept
>can get no more powers- if you go strictly by SR3 BBB only.

Now this is just scary that not only are we talking about one
character amassing the Karma to get all 50 or so powers, but that we
also have to mention the potential for maxing them out?!?

I don't even want to think about the amount of Karma needed to max out
the aproximately 50 skills to their highest possible ratings...after
all, if we're talking about pushing it to the extreme edge of the
envelope, then in addition to 20 Karma multiplied by however many
Power Points such a feat would take, this Adept would also have to
have sixes in all 21 of the skills that you can take Improved Ability
in.

I stated it at the begining of this thought exercise, but I'll say it
again: If anyone does get an Adept to the point where there just
aren't any more powers left for you to take without initiation, DON'T
tell us about it. :)

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From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:46:34 -0700

Message no. 11 :I stated it at the begining of this thought exercise, but I'll say it
:again: If anyone does get an Adept to the point where there just
:aren't any more powers left for you to take without initiation, DON'T
:tell us about it. :)

Definitely, but at least if we ever find out Har'leah Quin's magic
rating, we can make a rough guess at his power level, at least as far as
restricting himself to adept powers goes... :p

Mongoose

From:	Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:15:34 -0500

Message no. 12 <snip>
>I am currently a bit confused by the following passage from the Adept
>Powers section of SR3:
>

<excerpt Snip>
>Frankly, I'm a bit baffled about when and why an adept can purchase new
>power points. Initially, an adept starts with a number of power points
>equal to his Magic rating. As far as I can tell, the only way to lose
>powers is via losing Magic points; thus, the total amount of powers
>available to the adept (amount of powers + unspent power points) is always
>going to equal the Magic rating. Since an adept's total amount of powers
>can never exceed his Magic rating, he can never qualify for additional
>power points; thus, he can never legally purchase points.

<interpreitation snip>

Ok now for my wonderful words of what wisdom I may have. Upon reading SR3
and creating my adept you determine magic rateing by the Wisdom rateing.
And also essence effects magic pool. So generally speaking a human
starting adept would most likely have a 6. This means that no one rateing
could go above a 6. So some of the powers that cost .25 points you could
not bump above a rateing of 6 in. Just a general guideline. Also looking
at my last couple phrases I also will think that in order to get something
above a 6 you need to find a way to increase your magical pool.
Interesting.

>=Glenn

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:15:42 -0700

Message no. 13 :>
:>Does this count purchasing Killing Hands at different levels? (In
:SR2,
:>you could have Killing Hand S and Killing Hands M and they were two
:>seperate powers.)
:
:In the BBB3, it doesn't say anywhere you can purchase it at different
:levels, so I counted it once. I'm just going with SR3 at the moment,
:because if you allow the Killing Hands rule from SR2, you might as
:well tally up the powers from SR2 that haven't been included into SR3
:yet.

Actually, since it says "power points, once spent, are gone", it is
not clear that you can "buy up" certain powers like killing hands. Sure,
you can buy another level of an improved ability (if you meet other
requirements", but can you spend 2 points to go from "killing hands s" to
"killing hands d"- for that matter, how many magic points must you have
for each, as they have no numeric level? And in "buying up" improved
reflexes, do you have to purchase level 2 for 3 points if you have level
1, or do you just pay the difference? If the points are "gone forever",
it implies you DO have to pay 3 points, but that seems unfair.

Mongoose

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:40:00 EDT

Message no. 14 In a message dated 9/27/1998 2:09:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

>
> Ok now for my wonderful words of what wisdom I may have. Upon reading SR3
> and creating my adept you determine magic rateing by the Wisdom rateing.
> And also essence effects magic pool. So generally speaking a human
> starting adept would most likely have a 6. This means that no one rateing
> could go above a 6. So some of the powers that cost .25 points you could
> not bump above a rateing of 6 in. Just a general guideline. Also looking
> at my last couple phrases I also will think that in order to get something
> above a 6 you need to find a way to increase your magical pool.
> Interesting.

Okay, I'm lost. Attribute is based upon Wisdom??? Okay folks, let's keep a
good focus here. -WILLPOWER- might be the term you are looking for, but NOT
Wisdom. And the number of beginning power points that an Adept has access to
is equal to his/her/its(?) Magic Attribute. Any points purchased beyond this
would require Karma (and some game playing), GM Mercy (loads of it ;), or
perhaps a usage on the SR Companion (but again, this would require GM Mercy
(See Previous ;)).

And beyond that, I don't know. I -think- I understood what you were
attempting to say here guy, but it might help if the terms were all matching
what we were more familiar with.

-K

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:07:38 -0500

Message no. 15 On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:40:00 EDT K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 9/27/1998 2:09:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

>> Ok now for my wonderful words of what wisdom I may have. Upon
reading SR3
>> and creating my adept you determine magic rateing by the Wisdom
rateing.
>> And also essence effects magic pool. So generally speaking a human
>> starting adept would most likely have a 6. This means that no one
rateing
>> could go above a 6. So some of the powers that cost .25 points you
could
>> not bump above a rateing of 6 in. Just a general guideline. Also
looking
>> at my last couple phrases I also will think that in order to get
something
>> above a 6 you need to find a way to increase your magical pool.
>> Interesting.

>Okay, I'm lost. Attribute is based upon Wisdom??? Okay folks, let's
keep a
>good focus here. -WILLPOWER- might be the term you are looking for, but
NOT
>Wisdom. And the number of beginning power points that an Adept has
access to
>is equal to his/her/its(?) Magic Attribute. Any points purchased beyond
this
>would require Karma (and some game playing), GM Mercy (loads of it ;),
or
>perhaps a usage on the SR Companion (but again, this would require GM
Mercy
>(See Previous ;)).
>
>And beyond that, I don't know. I -think- I understood what you were
>attempting to say here guy, but it might help if the terms were all
matching
>what we were more familiar with.

I think what happened was he confused Magic Attribute with Spell Pool
(Formerly Magic Pool). I think he misread the section to say the adept
recieves a number of starting power points equal to his/her magic pool.
Of course, the adept recieves power points based on his/her magic
-ATRRIBUTE- and there is no magic pool in SR3 (The magic pool being
replaced with the spell pool.).

So in order to get above a six rating in any ability, you need to
increase your magic ATTRIBUTE (through intitiation), not your magic pool
(Which doesn't exist anymore in SR3 and Physical Adepts [Adepts in SR3]
don't get a magic pool or Spell Pool in SR1, Sr2, or SR3.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
--T-Bone(?)

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From:	Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:34:47 -0500

Message no. 16 <SNIP>
>In a message dated 9/27/1998 2:09:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

<SNIP OF MY POST>

>Okay, I'm lost. Attribute is based upon Wisdom??? Okay folks, let's keep
a
>good focus here. -WILLPOWER- might be the term you are looking for, but
NOT
>Wisdom. And the number of beginning power points that an Adept has access
to
>is equal to his/her/its(?) Magic Attribute. Any points purchased beyond
this
>would require Karma (and some game playing), GM Mercy (loads of it ;), or
>perhaps a usage on the SR Companion (but again, this would require GM Mercy
>(See Previous ;)).
>
>And beyond that, I don't know. I -think- I understood what you were
>attempting to say here guy, but it might help if the terms were all
matching
>what we were more familiar with.

Well see what I get for being lazy and tired I wanted the time I sent that
in that one. Oof.. Trying to read 100+ messages is something i am goning
to need to get used to. And soo sorry Magic pool is based directly off of
essence rateing round down. In Baby or SR3 or whatever term fits you
better their is not a way shown to increase your actual essece. So bringing
any one ability above a three according to that base book is not an ease
task by far. Admittedly I am nowhere near doing that and probably won't be
for a long long time I enjoy thinking and imagineing what my character would
become eventually. Oh and on a different side note. I am patterning my
Physed after Blade. Background even refrences that it is the MOVIE
character he is patterning himself after. Now I just gotta get good enuff
to waste a club full of bug people by myself. Sigh. Maby I will need a
rateing above a 6 in some things after all who knows.
>-K

Grimlakin

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:13:45 -0500

Message no. 17 On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:34:47 -0500 Joshua Mumme
<grimlakin@**********.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>Well see what I get for being lazy and tired I wanted the time I sent
that
>in that one. Oof.. Trying to read 100+ messages is something i am
goning
>to need to get used to. And soo sorry Magic pool is based directly off
of
>essence rateing round down. In Baby or SR3 or whatever term fits you
>better their is not a way shown to increase your actual essece. So
bringing
>any one ability above a three according to that base book is not an ease
>task by far. Admittedly I am nowhere near doing that and probably
won't be
>for a long long time I enjoy thinking and imagineing what my character
would
>become eventually. Oh and on a different side note. I am patterning
my
>Physed after Blade. Background even refrences that it is the MOVIE
>character he is patterning himself after. Now I just gotta get good
enuff
>to waste a club full of bug people by myself. Sigh. Maby I will need a
>rateing above a 6 in some things after all who knows.

Uhm???? It seems you are still confused.

First. Spell Pool is (Intelligence + Willpower + Magic Attribute)/3
(Round down). ADEPTS DO NOT HAVE A SPELL POOL.

Second. There is no Magic Pool. The Magic Pool has been replaced by the
Spell Pool (See above.).

All magic users (Adepts, Full Magicians, and Aspected Magicians) have a
Magic Attribute that has a base rating equal to the Essence of the magic
user rounded down. The Magic Attribute can also be permanently reduced
due to wounds and improper healing.

Adepts recieve a number of Power Points equal to their MAGIC ATTRIBUTE.
If an adept's Magic Attribute is reduced, his or her Power Points are
reduced by an equal amount. After the game starts, an adept may purchase
more power points at a cost of 20 karma per point. No one adept power
can have a rating higher than the adept's Magic Attribute. This means
that no adept can EVER start with a power with a rating higher than 6.

I hope this clears things up. (The emphasis on certain words and phrases
was added to reflect the importance of those statements and was not
intended to be rude. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
--T-Bone(?)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	"Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:20:52 -0700

Message no. 18 > In case that doesn't clear things up, the "obvious" ceiling is
> that,
> in SR3, there is no way to raise an Adepts magic rating. Magic rating
> is
> the ceiling on the rating of any adept power; since their are only so
> many
> adept powers listed, and their max rating is going to be 6 in all
> cases
> (or less, for things with only a few levels, like improved reflexes,
> which
> tops out at 3), their is a point (way off on the horizon) where an
> adept
> can get no more powers- if you go strictly by SR3 BBB only.
>
Yeah, but isn't there going to be something like the grimioure that
tells about becomeing an initiate or something like that? initiates can
get their magic rating raised.... I'm sure they'd come out with a SR3
equivilant...at least I hope they do.

-=Toffer=-

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:53:52 EDT

Message no. 19 Umm, I came up with some more adept powers and I wouldn't mind some input back
on them too. You can reach it through the Hoosier Hacker House by going to
the Magic page and then click on the Adept powers pic. Or, you can just type
in the following and go there using this addy ...

http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/adepts.htm

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:11:56 -0400

Message no. 20 >Umm, I came up with some more adept powers and I wouldn't
>mind some input back
>on them too. You can reach it through the Hoosier Hacker
>House by going to
>the Magic page and then click on the Adept powers pic. Or, you
>can just type in the following and go there using this addy ...
>http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/adepts.htm

Just my .02 cents worth. I like the various adapted animal
powers. The underwater/diving ones, I have a few qualms
about, just because basically why/how. And why did you pick
the number 80m? The technological ones (encryption,radio
broadcasting,etc) are the ones I have a problem with. They
seem to be well thought out, but to me go against the very
nature of the adept, and the various magic books, say that you
can buy enhanced senses as long as they don't rely exclusively
on tech. (And I think radio is listed as an example).
This is all IMHO of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:29:56 EDT

Message no. 21 In a message dated 10/7/1998 3:13:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

>
> Just my .02 cents worth. I like the various adapted animal
> powers. The underwater/diving ones, I have a few qualms
> about, just because basically why/how. And why did you pick
> the number 80m? The technological ones (encryption,radio
> broadcasting,etc) are the ones I have a problem with. They
> seem to be well thought out, but to me go against the very
> nature of the adept, and the various magic books, say that you
> can buy enhanced senses as long as they don't rely exclusively
> on tech. (And I think radio is listed as an example).
> This is all IMHO of course.
>
I'll answer the two examples for the fun of it (Mike left for work, and I have
that damn flu myself).

1) The 80 meter depth was determined after the reading through of
Cyberpirates and T:SH for information concerning Diving, and he was looking to
remain consistent with the given material in those books.

2) The "Radio Sense" stuff I warned Mike about, but he went with it anyway.
His reason for it was pretty good though, and I do have to sort of agree with
him. Animals in the Oceans have varying degrees of electrical sensitivity,
from Sharks and Skates, to many species of fish in general. The powers were
initially based upon their basis and then advanced further. I do note that
what I recall of Mike conversing with me upon is that the powers or
"receptive" in nature, and not "proactive" or "aggressive".
By that I mean
they can receive signals and the like, but cannot directly broadcast a signal
of their own.

I would like to put in a disclaimer there. I didn't even read the material
myself as he posted it, I merely cleaned up the page and put in the links.

-K

From:	Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:48:59 -0500

Message no. 22 >Yeah, but isn't there going to be something like the grimioure that
>tells about becomeing an initiate or something like that? initiates can
>get their magic rating raised.... I'm sure they'd come out with a SR3
>equivilant...at least I hope they do.
>
>-=Toffer=-

On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return raise
the magical attribute? And does spending 20 karma void the previous
initiate rules?

Ron
#include disclamer.h

From:	Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:11:33 -0400

Message no. 23 >On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost
>of 20 Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that
>in return raise the magical attribute? And does spending 20
>karma void the previous initiate rules?

No spending 20 karma points, does not give you another
magic point, just another point worth of adept powers.
Only intiation increases you magic attribute. So for instance
say level one initiation costs 18 points with no ordeals or
groups. So you spend you karma to intiate. But the next time
the 20 points is cheaper then the cost of level 2 intiation.
So you could do either. SR3, does't make anything else obsolete.
Once MITS comes out, we'll know how initiation has changed
and we'll have a better idea.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:16:57 -0400

Message no. 24 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:48 PM 10/7/98 -0500, Ron wrote:
>On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
>Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return
raise
>the magical attribute?

No.

>And does spending 20 karma void the previous
>initiate rules?

No, because this isn't initiation. It's a way adepts can grow in power
without having to initiate.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:18:35 -0500

Message no. 25 From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 4:48 PM

>On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
>Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return
>raise the magical attribute?

No, it just gives you a power point. It doesn't raise the Magic attribute.

>And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?

No, it doesn't, it just offers a different route to gaining adept powers.
There are still advantages to be had from initiating that you can't get just
for buying the power point.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:25:36 -0400

Message no. 26 `At 04:48 PM 10/7/98 -0500, you wrote:

> On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
>Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return raise
>the magical attribute?

No, it does not raise the Magic Attribute. The 20 points purchase a Power
Point, not a point of Magic.

>And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?

Not by any means.

It was something that was proposed to the playtesters of SR3 as an
alternate means for growth and progession of adepts by Mike M. (though I
don't know if he got the idea from someone else). I pushed for a more
gradiated system instead of a flat 20 Karma points, but as we can see in
SR3, that's a battle I lost.

Up until Magic in the Shadows is released, all of the old stuff contained
in the Grimoire and Awakenings is still valid, unless updated/voided by
materials in SR3. That means that stuff like Initiation and metaplanar
quests, for example, are still valid for those SR games that use those things.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:14:42 EDT

Message no. 27 In a message dated 10/7/1998 4:49:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rclark@****.NET writes:

>
>
> On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of
> 20
> Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return raise
> the magical attribute? And does spending 20 karma void the previous
> initiate rules?
>
> Ron

My best guesses to both questions there is NO.

-K

From:	Bill ChewStriker <bill@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:59:53 -0400

Message no. 28 >>Yeah, but isn't there going to be something like the grimioure that
>>tells about becomeing an initiate or something like that? initiates can
>>get their magic rating raised.... I'm sure they'd come out with a SR3
>>equivilant...at least I hope they do.
>>
>>-=Toffer=-
>
>
> On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
>Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return raise
>the magical attribute? And does spending 20 karma void the previous
>initiate rules?
>
>Ron
>#include disclamer.h
>
>
Yes they can get more points for 20 but it does not raise the magic
attribute. They will prolly be able to initiate and get more magic when new
magic rules come out for 3rd edition.
---Myth-Chip/Striker/Bill

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 03:53:21 EDT

Message no. 29 In a message dated 10/7/98 3:13:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

> >Umm, I came up with some more adept powers and I wouldn't
> >mind some input back
> >on them too. You can reach it through the Hoosier Hacker
> >House by going to
> >the Magic page and then click on the Adept powers pic. Or, you
> >can just type in the following and go there using this addy ...
> >http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/adepts.htm
>
> Just my .02 cents worth. I like the various adapted animal
> powers. The underwater/diving ones, I have a few qualms
> about, just because basically why/how. And why did you pick
> the number 80m?

The reason for the underwater / diving power(s) is because one of the Adepts
here in the home game is playing a Adept that follows the totem of Sea. And
he is making contact with the merfolf which live in the sea in the Pacific,
seeing as he is half-Maori/half-Phillipino (never call him a Jap-wannabe or
Jap-halfbreed to his face, both player and character).

As for the distance of 80 meters, that is the depth at which normal SCUBA and
other diving gear will not function as intended. Beyond those depths you need
something akin to a LBA (Liquid Breathing Aparatus).

> The technological ones (encryption,radio
> broadcasting,etc) are the ones I have a problem with. They
> seem to be well thought out, but to me go against the very
> nature of the adept, and the various magic books, say that you
> can buy enhanced senses as long as they don't rely exclusively
> on tech. (And I think radio is listed as an example).
> This is all IMHO of course.

Think of it this way, the Adept has learned to manipulate their personal
electro-magnetic field to be able to either send or receive (or both) radio
waves. As for the encryption and decryption, I added these in since an Adept
should be able to scramble their own thought patterns (which is what is being
sent) to whomever they are sending them too. And as for the decryption, the
Adept has learned to be able to crack encryption codes really well in their
head. Remember, the human mind is still the most powerful computer processor
in the world.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 04:00:20 EDT

Message no. 30 In a message dated 10/7/98 4:49:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rclark@****.NET writes:

> On page 168, it talks about getting more power points at a cost of 20
> Karma. So you can always get more points, but does that in return raise
> the magical attribute?

No, it just allows the Adept to gain more powers without having to go into
initiation.

> And does spending 20 karma void the previous
> initiate rules?

Yep ... if you mean the ones from SR2 ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:01:20 -0400

Message no. 31 On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, K in the Shadows wrote:

->In a message dated 10/7/1998 3:13:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
->DeckerL@******.COM writes:
->
->>
->> Just my .02 cents worth. I like the various adapted animal
->> powers. The underwater/diving ones, I have a few qualms
->> about, just because basically why/how. And why did you pick
->> the number 80m? The technological ones (encryption,radio
->> broadcasting,etc) are the ones I have a problem with. They
->> seem to be well thought out, but to me go against the very
->> nature of the adept, and the various magic books, say that you
->> can buy enhanced senses as long as they don't rely exclusively
->> on tech. (And I think radio is listed as an example).
->> This is all IMHO of course.
->>
->I'll answer the two examples for the fun of it (Mike left for work, and I have
->that damn flu myself).
->
->1) The 80 meter depth was determined after the reading through of
->Cyberpirates and T:SH for information concerning Diving, and he was looking to
->remain consistent with the given material in those books.
->
->2) The "Radio Sense" stuff I warned Mike about, but he went with it
anyway.
->His reason for it was pretty good though, and I do have to sort of agree with
->him. Animals in the Oceans have varying degrees of electrical sensitivity,
->from Sharks and Skates, to many species of fish in general. The powers were
->initially based upon their basis and then advanced further. I do note that
->what I recall of Mike conversing with me upon is that the powers or
->"receptive" in nature, and not "proactive" or
"aggressive". By that I mean
->they can receive signals and the like, but cannot directly broadcast a signal
->of their own.

Actually, one of the powers IS broadcasting a signal. That was
one I was going to ignore. Radio reception I can nearly understand. From
what I can recall people's braces and/or fillings used to occasionally
pick up and make audible normal radio broadcasts (I can't recall how,
though, so please dont' ask). It's not too much of a stretch to imagine
that a physad would simply attune their body to receive the same waves,
but the decryption/encryption parts are also in my File 13 (read: idea
trashcan) as those usually involve some serious tech.

->I would like to put in a disclaimer there. I didn't even read the material
->myself as he posted it, I merely cleaned up the page and put in the links.

Page looked nice, the list as a majority was nice, but the radio
transmission and encryption/decryption sections are not within the ability
of a physad, IMMHOO.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:08:42 -0500

Message no. 32 From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 3:00 AM

>> And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?
>
>Yep ... if you mean the ones from SR2 ...

Okay, Herc, you caught my attention. Yours is the lone dissenting view I've
seen in response to this question, so...How do you figure this?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:27:05 -0600

Message no. 33 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Patrick Goodman wrote:
/
/ From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
/ Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 3:00 AM
/
/ >> And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?
/ >
/ >Yep ... if you mean the ones from SR2 ...
/
/ Okay, Herc, you caught my attention. Yours is the lone dissenting view I've
/ seen in response to this question, so...How do you figure this?

You've got my attention also.

I don't see how the "20 karma for power points" rule voids the initiate
rules. An Adept could use one or the other, or both, to gain new
powers. Spending 20 karma is nice and easy, doesn't require a group,
and doesn't require a test, like going on an astral quest. However, it
doesn't allow the Adept to learn metamagic abilities or increase his
Magic rating. Initiating is more expensive and requires a test, but
the increase in Magic and the metamagic abilities are worth it. Or,
the Adept could do both, spending a few years Initiating, and then buy
some new power points if Initiating is prohibitivly expensive (karma
wise).

Were's the conflict?

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:37:12 -0700

Message no. 34 :>> And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?
:>
:>Yep ... if you mean the ones from SR2 ...
:
:Okay, Herc, you caught my attention. Yours is the lone dissenting view
I've
:seen in response to this question, so...How do you figure this?

I can see Herc's point here. Nowhere in SR3 (or, obviously, any
previous sourcebook) does it state that increasing an adepts magic rating
will grant them a Power Point. The only way to get more power points is
to spend the 20 karma. The initiation rules in the grimoire don't deal
with power points, just magic rating (obviously, because power points did
not exist as such previous to SR3).
That being said, MiTS is due out in what, May '99? And it has been
publicly stated that initiation will add to magic rating and power points,
and that initiation will start at grade 1, not zero. So if your adepts
are really keen on intitating, let them, and give them the power point-
the rules might change slightly, but you'll probably be able to adjust
things after the fact. Intitation carries more rewards than buying power
points, but also should have some role-played difficulties and risks.
Besides, simply having a higher magic rating means you are at times more
likely to loose magic, which will cause loss of power points- those bought
with 20 karma are almost impossible to loose.

Mongoose

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:50:28 EDT

Message no. 35 In a message dated 10/8/98 5:54:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Actually, one of the powers IS broadcasting a signal. That was
> one I was going to ignore. Radio reception I can nearly understand. From
> what I can recall people's braces and/or fillings used to occasionally
> pick up and make audible normal radio broadcasts (I can't recall how,
> though, so please dont' ask). It's not too much of a stretch to imagine
> that a physad would simply attune their body to receive the same waves,
> but the decryption/encryption parts are also in my File 13 (read: idea
> trashcan) as those usually involve some serious tech.
>
> ->I would like to put in a disclaimer there. I didn't even read the
> material
> ->myself as he posted it, I merely cleaned up the page and put in the
links.
>
> Page looked nice, the list as a majority was nice, but the radio
> transmission and encryption/decryption sections are not within the ability
> of a physad, IMMHOO.
>
Then I will remove the material then ... it sounded wonderful to me at the
time. Also, did you notice the very restricted range of the radio power? It
was based on the number of levels purchased multiplied by the Adept's Magic
Attribute.

I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which woould
allow them to communicate via radio waves.

Oh well,

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:55:53 EDT

Message no. 36 In a message dated 10/8/98 10:39:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >> And does spending 20 karma void the previous initiate rules?
> >
> >Yep ... if you mean the ones from SR2 ...
>
> Okay, Herc, you caught my attention. Yours is the lone dissenting view
I've
> seen in response to this question, so...How do you figure this?

The only question I have is which initiate rules are you referring to? If you
are talking the SR2 initiate rules, then yes, the new changes to void the
previous rules. If you are talking SR3 rules, then -NO- they don't void the
initiate rules, but it does allow for an Adept to continue their development
without having to initiate.

Originally this was how I understood the question.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:04:24 EDT

Message no. 37 Okay everybody ... I am putting my foot down now ...

I did not mean to state that initiate rules and Adepts are going to be tossed
out of the window ...

Adepts still gain a Power Point for purchasing powers when they go up in grade
... that has never changed ...

What has changed is that now an Adept no longer needs to initiate to gain
additional powers as of this time ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:22:53 -0400

Message no. 38 Quoting Mike Bobroff (Airwasp@***.COM):
> Umm, I came up with some more adept powers and I wouldn't mind some input back
> on them too. You can reach it through the Hoosier Hacker House by going to
> the Magic page and then click on the Adept powers pic. Or, you can just type
> in the following and go there using this addy ...
>
> http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/adepts.htm
>
> -Herc
> ------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Okay. A lot of these I like, but a couple of them I have problems
with. People have already mentioned the radio-based things, so I'll leave
them alone...but what about the Platlet Factory power? I can't see an
Adept ability that could, just by being there, KILL the adept if they
fail to take their drugs. Everyone who manifested it would keel over before
they knew what was wrong.
You could, however, weaken it a bit so the penalty isn't necessary,
or something, and rename it 'Accelerated Healing' or something of that
nature. Though there may already be a power by that name - my memory is going.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:51:29 -0400

Message no. 39 On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Mike Bobroff wrote:

->In a message dated 10/8/98 5:54:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
->fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:
->
->> Actually, one of the powers IS broadcasting a signal. That was
->> one I was going to ignore. Radio reception I can nearly understand. From
->> what I can recall people's braces and/or fillings used to occasionally
->> pick up and make audible normal radio broadcasts (I can't recall how,
->> though, so please dont' ask). It's not too much of a stretch to imagine
->> that a physad would simply attune their body to receive the same waves,
->> but the decryption/encryption parts are also in my File 13 (read: idea
->> trashcan) as those usually involve some serious tech.
->>
->> ->I would like to put in a disclaimer there. I didn't even read the
->> material
->> ->myself as he posted it, I merely cleaned up the page and put in the
->links.
->>
->> Page looked nice, the list as a majority was nice, but the radio
->> transmission and encryption/decryption sections are not within the ability
->> of a physad, IMMHOO.
->>
->Then I will remove the material then ... it sounded wonderful to me at the
->time. Also, did you notice the very restricted range of the radio power? It
->was based on the number of levels purchased multiplied by the Adept's Magic
->Attribute.
->
->I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which woould
->allow them to communicate via radio waves.

Well, a mage can manipulate magic better than a physical adept
can, because they can access so much more of it. A physical adept focuses
more on their own body than the metaphysical world, or the physical world.
You don't have to remove it on my account, I just said I wouldn't use it,
someone else might, however.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:37:35 -0400

Message no. 40 At 07:01 AM 10-8-98 -0400, you wrote:

<snip>

> Actually, one of the powers IS broadcasting a signal. That was
>one I was going to ignore. Radio reception I can nearly understand. From
>what I can recall people's braces and/or fillings used to occasionally
>pick up and make audible normal radio broadcasts (I can't recall how,
>though, so please dont' ask). It's not too much of a stretch to imagine
>that a physad would simply attune their body to receive the same waves,
>but the decryption/encryption parts are also in my File 13 (read: idea
>trashcan) as those usually involve some serious tech.
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

The only difficulty I can see with that is the difference between digital
and analog signals. Right now, most commercial radio signals are analog,
so the radio waves translate directly into sound waves, assuming you can
find a transducer (like a filling or braces ;) ). However, a lot of
signals today are digital, and I see almost all of them being so in 2060.
Requires a microchip to translate the 1s and 0s back into sound. So a
human listening to a digital radio signal would only hear something very
similar to static without a translating chip.

However, YMMV.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:53:46 -0500

Message no. 41 On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:50:28 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which
woould
>allow them to communicate via radio waves.
>
>Oh well,

What are you basing this on? It was my understanding that this was NOT
possible.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:03:35 -0400

Message no. 42 At 03:53 AM 10/8/98 -0400, Herc wrote:
>And as for the decryption, the
>Adept has learned to be able to crack encryption codes really well in their
>head. Remember, the human mind is still the most powerful computer processor
>in the world.

For good reference material concerning this topic, there's a m-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED
MESSAGE-----

At 03:53 AM 10/8/98 -0400, Herc wrote:
>And as for the decryption, the
>Adept has learned to be able to crack encryption codes really well in
their
>head. Remember, the human mind is still the most powerful computer
processor
>in the world.

For good reference material concerning this topic, there's a movie
recently released on video.
The name of it is Mercury Rising, and it starts Bruce Willis, and one
of the Baldwin brothers. The thrust of the plot is that a
seven-year-old autistic boy has the ability to slice through the US
Government's most secure encryption scheme like it was butter. Mr.
Willis's character takes it upon himself to protect the boy from the
government agents sent to eliminate the threat to National Security.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

iQCVAwUBNh1g4qPbvUVI86rNAQFqAwQAmAulRTCoJ5V/3ypGG5K96wf6raavvLmg
9PBkkj5l5YcU1O+pQmjEtJ8Iq0PH4jKOUlQuvciikZt4XPB8t0GPJJ2UmFXSe4Hh
wex7x65xFVMNGARlo5qQYuY2ecPHrJZS5LGt1Ok6v0N7seqifCSEra63Bvdw8HGR
Y7H8t1M3JiY=
=xPQ9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
ovie recently released on video.
The name of it is Mercury Rising, and it starts Bruce Willis, and one of the Baldwin
brothers. The thrust of the plot is that a seven-year-old autistic boy has the ability to
slice through the US Government's most secure encryption scheme like it was butter. Mr.
Willis's character takes it upon himself to protect the boy from the government agents
sent to eliminate the threat to National Security.
--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:21:10 -0500

Message no. 43 From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:55 PM

>> Okay, Herc, you caught my attention. Yours is the lone dissenting
>> view I've seen in response to this question, so...How do you figure
>> this?
>
>The only question I have is which initiate rules are you referring to?

The only ones we have right now, those in Grimmy for SR2.

>If you are talking the SR2 initiate rules, then yes, the new changes
>to void the previous rules.

Yes, those are the ones I'm talking about. Can you answer my question now?
How does the SR3 rule of 20 Karma for a Power point invalidate or void the
rules in the Grimoire for initiation?

>If you are talking SR3 rules, then -NO- they don't void the
>initiate rules...

Mike, we don't have any initiate rules specifically for SR3; we've got
hold-overs from SR2. You still haven't answered my question.

>...but it does allow for an Adept to continue their development
>without having to initiate.

This part we agree on. You never answered the original question, however.
Yes, I am harping on this. I don't like it when I get answered with a bunch
of double-talk, and that's all I saw in this.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:15:50 EDT

Message no. 44 In a message dated 10/8/1998 9:07:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

> >I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which
> woould
> >allow them to communicate via radio waves.
> >
> >Oh well,
>
> What are you basing this on? It was my understanding that this was NOT
> possible.

I know Mike will probably jump in here, but the restriction was something that
allowed a Physical Adept (SRI & II) to have access to such, while spells were
never limited in such a manner. At least, that I remember.

-K

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:20:43 EDT

Message no. 45 In a message dated 10/8/98 2:23:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

> Okay. A lot of these I like, but a couple of them I have problems
> with. People have already mentioned the radio-based things, so I'll leave
> them alone...but what about the Platlet Factory power? I can't see an
> Adept ability that could, just by being there, KILL the adept if they
> fail to take their drugs. Everyone who manifested it would keel over before
> they knew what was wrong.
> You could, however, weaken it a bit so the penalty isn't necessary,
> or something, and rename it 'Accelerated Healing' or something of that
> nature. Though there may already be a power by that name - my memory is
> going.

Yes there is, it's called Improved Attribute (Body). But as for the faster
healing time, I perceived the Platelet Factory as being something the Adept
could pull off on themselves, as the Adept would be modifying their own body
to do this.

Hmm, though if you are having difficulties with that, what would you think
then if I dropped the part about it reducing damage, but increasing healing
time as a trade-off for not having to worry about taking the anti-coagulant.
What do you think?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:23:43 EDT

Message no. 46 In a message dated 10/8/98 2:42:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> ->Then I will remove the material then ... it sounded wonderful to me at the
> ->time. Also, did you notice the very restricted range of the radio power?
> It
> ->was based on the number of levels purchased multiplied by the Adept's
> Magic
> ->Attribute.
> ->
> ->I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which
> woould
> ->allow them to communicate via radio waves.
>
> Well, a mage can manipulate magic better than a physical adept
> can, because they can access so much more of it. A physical adept focuses
> more on their own body than the metaphysical world, or the physical world.
> You don't have to remove it on my account, I just said I wouldn't use it,
> someone else might, however.

Hmm, how about instead of calling it Radio Broadcasting, I called it Roar of
the Elephant. The reason being instead of having the Adept communicate via
radio, the Adept is now communicating using sub-harmonics instead. Like an
elephant can, and they are able to reach distances of 40+ miles or so.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:30:16 EDT

Message no. 47 In a message dated 10/8/98 9:02:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> >I personally saw it as doable since a mage could whip up a spell which
> woould
> >allow them to communicate via radio waves.
> >
> >Oh well,
>
> What are you basing this on? It was my understanding that this was NOT
> possible.

The radio spell would definitely be a manipulation spell, probably
transformation as it is taking a mental thought and turning it into a radio
wave which can then be broadcasted outwards.

Don't ever say anything is impossible, hard yes, impossible, no. The moment
you say something can not be done means that you will have already failed
before even starting.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:33:32 EDT

Message no. 48 In a message dated 10/8/98 9:27:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >If you are talking the SR2 initiate rules, then yes, the new changes
> >to void the previous rules.
>
> Yes, those are the ones I'm talking about. Can you answer my question now?
> How does the SR3 rule of 20 Karma for a Power point invalidate or void the
> rules in the Grimoire for initiation?

Okay, now that I understand the question better ... here goes ...

As it currently stands, the SR3 rule allows an Adept to gain more powers
without having to go up in grade to gain additional powers.

No, this rule does not void the rules in the Grimoire, it only adds to it
until MiTS comes out.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:10:19 -0700

Message no. 49 :>If you are talking the SR2 initiate rules, then yes, the new changes
:>to void the previous rules.
:
:Yes, those are the ones I'm talking about. Can you answer my question
now?
:How does the SR3 rule of 20 Karma for a Power point invalidate or void
the
:rules in the Grimoire for initiation?

The grimiore says initiation ads its grade to the initiates magic
rating. In SR3, the magic rating limits the level of all powers and, when
decreased, causes loss of power points. There is no provision for its
increase, and no statement that if it DID increase, the adept would gain a
power point. Hence, without a re-writing of the rules for MiTS,
intitation would not grant adepts power points.
It is not the "20 karma for a power point" that "invalidates" the
grimoires initiation rules; it is the very nature of power points
themselves; they go down when magic does, and up if you spend 20 karma.
No other method is given for changing them in SR3, and no previous book
used power points. So initiation as in the grimore is not invalidated,
but it's effect is quite different.
It is entirely likely that the intended effect of initiation IS to
raise an adepts magic rating and power points, but as of now, there is no
rule that says it does do that. Intitation for adepts probably should NOT
be done so as to add to power points in addition to the other bonuses in
the Grimoire, because it often costs less than 20 karma. That would make
buying power points at 20 karma a piece rather pointless.

Mongoose

From:	Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adept Powers
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:30:27 -0400

Message no. 50 At 02:30 AM 10-9-98 EDT, you wrote:

<snip>

>The radio spell would definitely be a manipulation spell, probably
>transformation as it is taking a mental thought and turning it into a radio
>wave which can then be broadcasted outwards.
>
>Don't ever say anything is impossible, hard yes, impossible, no. The moment
>you say something can not be done means that you will have already failed
>before even starting.
>
>-Herc

As I mentioned earlier, the problem you run into is not transducing the
signal, that's relatively simple. The problem is that most radio signals
in 2060 are going to be digital instead of analog; many today already are.
Digital signals are clearer (due to error-correction) and can be easily
encrypted. Unfortunately, without the microchip that turns the 1s and 0s
back into analog, the signal just sounds like static.

I don't know if it's impossible to build a DA conversion algorithm into a
spell formula, but there's not one spell in SR to date that handles
information processing.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 51 Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
> Don't ever say anything is impossible, hard yes, impossible, no. The moment
> you say something can not be done means that you will have already failed
> before even starting.

Or it means I looked at it and said, "I'm the GM, and I don't like this.
Therefore it can't be done."

It's a game, folks! You're not REALLY designing a spell; you're designing
a game rule. The Power of Positive Affirmation Schtick does not therefore
apply.

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

Message no. 52 In a message dated 10/9/98 2:32:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> As I mentioned earlier, the problem you run into is not transducing the
> signal, that's relatively simple. The problem is that most radio signals
> in 2060 are going to be digital instead of analog; many today already are.
> Digital signals are clearer (due to error-correction) and can be easily
> encrypted. Unfortunately, without the microchip that turns the 1s and 0s
> back into analog, the signal just sounds like static.
>
> I don't know if it's impossible to build a DA conversion algorithm into a
> spell formula, but there's not one spell in SR to date that handles
> information processing.

Hmm, then the spell would have to have the DA conversion algorithm thrown in
for fun then. Admittedly, it would not have a great range, combined between
Area of Effect and Line of Sight.

As for using the Grimoire to make the spell, here goes,and I changed my mind,
I am now basing this spell off of a variation of the Mindlink spell, although
I am going to build the spell from the ground up.

Radio Broadcast
Category ............. Detection
Type ................... Physical
Range ................. Area of Effect (Extended Range)
Target ................. 6
Duration .............. Sustained
Drain .................. [(F/2) +3] D

Drain Code determined in the following way :
Radically new sense : D code
Phsyical Spell : +1 power
Sustained Spell : +1 power
Works on Non-Living Target : +1 power and +2 code

This modifier was thrown in to represent the ability of the spell to be able
to be received by a normal am/fm radio.

Detection Spell : -1 power
Extended Range : -1 power
Area of Effect : +1 code
Superficial Mind Interaction : +1 power
Personal Spell : -3 code

And there you have it, as I see it.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Message no. 53 On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:20:43 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> writes:

>Yes there is, it's called Improved Attribute (Body). But as for the
>faster
>healing time, I perceived the Platelet Factory as being something the
>Adept
>could pull off on themselves, as the Adept would be modifying their
>own body
>to do this.
>
>Hmm, though if you are having difficulties with that, what would you
>think
>then if I dropped the part about it reducing damage, but increasing
>healing
>time as a trade-off for not having to worry about taking the
>anti-coagulant.
>What do you think?
>

Hey, why does the power have to trade-off one for one with the
bioware version? Why not just ditch the having to take the
anti-coagulant.
Adept powers are way more body friendly than any unnatural body
enhancement. His body just deals with the greater amount of plateletes,
by releasing his own anti-coagulants or instructing the platelets not to
clump. For this power to work changes already have to be made on the
cellular level so 'smart platelet's' don't really bother me. It seems
totally
against the whole adept thing to have a power that's self destructive. I
guess that's how I view the difference between Sam's and Adepts, ones
quick dangerous power, the other slow safe power.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 54 Mike Bobroff wrote:

<SNIP>

> Yes there is, it's called Improved Attribute (Body). But as for the faster
> healing time, I perceived the Platelet Factory as being something the Adept
> could pull off on themselves, as the Adept would be modifying their own body
> to do this.
>
> Hmm, though if you are having difficulties with that, what would you think
> then if I dropped the part about it reducing damage, but increasing healing
> time as a trade-off for not having to worry about taking the anti-coagulant.
> What do you think?
>
> -Herc
> ------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Why not something run of the mill and simple. One health box per day per
level. and a simple chart

Lvl1 1 power point 1 level a day
Lvl2 3 power points 2 levels a day
Lvl3 4power points 3 levels a day
Lvl4 6 Power Points 4 levels a day

All in adition to natural healing of course.

Grimlakin

Message no. 55 :> Yes there is, it's called Improved Attribute (Body). But as for the
faster
:> healing time, I perceived the Platelet Factory as being something the
Adept
:> could pull off on themselves, as the Adept would be modifying their own
body
:> to do this.

The platelet factory bioware has nothing to do with healing. It
reduce the boxes of physical dmage you take, which means there is less
damage to heal, and thats the best medicine there is. :-)

:> Hmm, though if you are having difficulties with that, what would you
think
:> then if I dropped the part about it reducing damage, but increasing
healing
:> time as a trade-off for not having to worry about taking the
anti-coagulant.
:> What do you think?

That would make sense. If you read the Shadowtech commnets, the
platlett factory often makes small; wounds a nusance, due to exccesibve
"scabbing". Youd really have to worry about bruises blocking viens, etc.

: Why not something run of the mill and simple. One health box per day
per
:level. and a simple chart
:
:Lvl1 1 power point 1 level a day
:Lvl2 3 power points 2 levels a day
:Lvl3 4power points 3 levels a day
:Lvl4 6 Power Points 4 levels a day

This is going the other dirrection, right; creating an accelrated
healing power? Thats some damn fast healing there! SR3 already hass such
a power- at .5 per level, you get extra dice on healing tests (unl;ike
increased body, it nevr costs more than .5 per level).

Mongoose

Message no. 56 Mongoose wrote:

> : Why not something run of the mill and simple. One health box per day
> per
> :level. and a simple chart
> :
> :Lvl1 1 power point 1 level a day
> :Lvl2 3 power points 2 levels a day
> :Lvl3 4power points 3 levels a day
> :Lvl4 6 Power Points 4 levels a day
>
> This is going the other dirrection, right; creating an accelrated
> healing power? Thats some damn fast healing there! SR3 already hass such
> a power- at .5 per level, you get extra dice on healing tests (unl;ike
> increased body, it nevr costs more than .5 per level).
>
> Mongoose

it is just a suggestion and it would be a good benifit for being an adept.
I mean I allways thouht of an adept as a charachter through focus and
concentration could heal himself. Never would work on others. And yea it
is fast healing but look at the costs! I mean they are NOT cheap by any
stretch of the imagination. Maby per day of complete rest or something? I
just think that that kind of a power would be super neato cool. And I hope
that it or something like it is published sometime soon. Haveing your
characters laid up for months on end sucks! :)

Grimlakin <with the adept in the last run that is currently laid up from a
deadly wound damnit!>

Message no. 57 In a message dated 10/9/1998 2:00:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

> > Well, a mage can manipulate magic better than a physical adept
> > can, because they can access so much more of it. A physical adept
> focuses
> > more on their own body than the metaphysical world, or the physical
world.
>
> > You don't have to remove it on my account, I just said I wouldn't use
it,
> > someone else might, however.
>
> Hmm, how about instead of calling it Radio Broadcasting, I called it Roar
of
> the Elephant. The reason being instead of having the Adept communicate via
> radio, the Adept is now communicating using sub-harmonics instead. Like an
> elephant can, and they are able to reach distances of 40+ miles or so.
>
> -Herc

Well well well, catching up still eh? I like this little concept very much.
Sub and multi-harmonic communication are just barely being understood by Man,
at least as used by the Animal Kingdom(s).

THIS power I could, and I could see it very useful as well.

-K

Message no. 58 In a message dated 10/9/1998 2:05:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> It is entirely likely that the intended effect of initiation IS to
> raise an adepts magic rating and power points, but as of now, there is no
> rule that says it does do that. Intitation for adepts probably should NOT
> be done so as to add to power points in addition to the other bonuses in
> the Grimoire, because it often costs less than 20 karma. That would make
> buying power points at 20 karma a piece rather pointless.
>
> Mongoose

Now this is a discussion I can watch with intent. But me just sit back???
Voyeur yes, silent (shush ya'll ;).

Initiation as described/defined by Grimoire II and even the more interesting
stuff in Awakenings does in fact function in much the way that Mongoose
states. And, should the Magic Attribute be raised via initiation, then it
*could* stand to reason that for every additional point, there is an
additional Power Point made available to the character as well.

However, let's say this isn't going to happen for just a few moments. Let's
say that Initiation gives *other* bonuses to the Adept (Physical Adept in
previous versions) for just a few moments? What would those bonuses be?
Centering? Okay, that is useful enough, and indeed SR3 is set up far nicer
for Centering than previous versions of the game when you sit back and think
about it. Masking? Okay, again this is useful for nearly every magically
active individual there is. If nothing else, to appear as a Mundane
individual or their (meta)type. Now, for the others.

Shielding? Not feasible as Active Usage of the Sorcery Skill (as in, able to
cast spells) is required for this trick. Reflective Shielding is an
advancement of Shielding, so it too falls by the wayside.

Quickening? Again needs the Active Sorcery skill.

Anchoring? See Above

Dispel Aura's trick (I forget the name mentioned in Awakenings). Again, not
feasible as this too requires Active Sorcery.

The ability to call upon the Great Form of a given spirit type. Hmmm...change
"Sorcery" to "Conjuring", and you get the idea.

Perform Astral Quests. Well, except for the "Vision Quest" mentioned in
Awakenings, I see no other access to the Metaplanes, as that would require
Astral Projection by the current rules, even in SR3. Unless access to the
Metaplanes gets redefined of course, but now I'm speculating. So this too,
becomes a "Nope."

So then, what other advantages to initiation are there for an Adept in SR3 at
this length. In short, very few. So, I'd say they *would* likely gain the
additional Power Point when they advance in grade, otherwise Initiation is not
going to be intended for the usage of the Adept at all.

No offense, that is entirely a boring thought to me.

-K

Message no. 59 In a message dated 10/9/1998 2:32:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> I don't know if it's impossible to build a DA conversion algorithm into a
> spell formula, but there's not one spell in SR to date that handles
> information processing.
>
Okay, now it's time to eat the Curds and Whey here folks. This statement is
flat out false. Information conversion exist all over the place. The ability
to detect and analyze different types of information sources even exists. And
if you include the Foretelling spell from Awakenings, then that source even
becomes Karmic Fate. Detect Enemies can pick up surface intents of opponents
that the individual does not even have LOS of. Catalog reads intent, type,
size, weight, etc...for objects and other *things* found within a given AoE.

So again, I would suggest rethinking your wording here. Detection magic is
just that, the ability to handle Information.

-K

Message no. 60 In a message dated 10/9/1998 5:24:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

>
> Yes there is, it's called Improved Attribute (Body). But as for the faster
> healing time, I perceived the Platelet Factory as being something the Adept
> could pull off on themselves, as the Adept would be modifying their own
body
> to do this.
>
> Hmm, though if you are having difficulties with that, what would you think
> then if I dropped the part about it reducing damage, but increasing healing
> time as a trade-off for not having to worry about taking the anti-
coagulant.
> What do you think?
>
Actually, I do believe there is an ability that does this already that is not
"Improved Attribute (Body)", but I could be wrong. Awakenings.

-K

Message no. 61 In a message dated 10/9/98 6:05:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.COM writes:

> Why not something run of the mill and simple. One health box per day per
> level. and a simple chart
>
> Lvl1 1 power point 1 level a day
> Lvl2 3 power points 2 levels a day
> Lvl3 4power points 3 levels a day
> Lvl4 6 Power Points 4 levels a day
>
>
> All in adition to natural healing of course.
>
> Grimlakin

I like the idea ... I went ahead and added what you wrote down onto the copy I
have on my computer and threw in an email link for someone to send you email
as a co-conspirator ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Message no. 62 > <snip>
>
> >The radio spell would definitely be a manipulation spell, probably
> >transformation as it is taking a mental thought and turning it
> into a radio
> >wave which can then be broadcasted outwards.
> >
> >Don't ever say anything is impossible, hard yes, impossible, no.
> The moment
> >you say something can not be done means that you will have already failed
> >before even starting.
> >
> >-Herc
>
> As I mentioned earlier, the problem you run into is not transducing the
> signal, that's relatively simple. The problem is that most radio signals
> in 2060 are going to be digital instead of analog; many today already are.
> Digital signals are clearer (due to error-correction) and can be easily
> encrypted. Unfortunately, without the microchip that turns the 1s and 0s
> back into analog, the signal just sounds like static.
>
> I don't know if it's impossible to build a DA conversion algorithm into a
> spell formula, but there's not one spell in SR to date that handles
> information processing.
>
> Starjammer

It is more than a simple DA conversion. The signal is run through a Vocoder
to compress the audio. And then there is interleaving, were the signal is
chopped up into segments and parts of each segment is mixed with the
preceding segments, so you don't lose a whole segment. Then there is CDMA
were you need a special code sequence to pick your message out of all the
signals being sent at the same time. And many of these features are trade
secrets. The have to work together but how each company implements them are
a secret. To able to pick up any complex signal would require more than
magic is able to do.

Mike

Message no. 63 Quoting K in the Shadows (Ereskanti@***.COM):
> Initiation as described/defined by Grimoire II and even the more interesting
> stuff in Awakenings does in fact function in much the way that Mongoose
> states. And, should the Magic Attribute be raised via initiation, then it
> *could* stand to reason that for every additional point, there is an
> additional Power Point made available to the character as well.
>

Don't forget that raising the Magic Attribute, even if it doesn't
generate extra Power Points, does help the Adept out, since the maximum
rating of any Adept power is limited by their Magic Attribute. And Centering
is (or can be) a very cool ability for Adepts. However, you're right,
if Initiation didn't grant power points, Adepts would have much less of a
reason to ever use it.
That's not necessarilly a flaw. They COULD simply leave Initiation
as something that Adepts can do, and get some benefits from, but not nearly
as many as mages, or really enough to make it worth the cost. You'd see
fewer initiated Adepts, but that's not really broken, just different. Or
they could lower the cost of initiation for Adepts.
Or, and this is sort of my guess, they could do something to
Initiation that'll give it costs & dangers aside from just the Karma cost.
For instance, it's always seemed to me that if you're part of an 'astral
contact group', then that 'astral contact' should act as a link for Ritual
Sorcery. That would have good points (you can always find that missing member
of your initiatory group) and bad points (the folks who kidnapped him can
find YOU).

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

Message no. 64 In a message dated 10/10/98 1:38:30 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mscoleman@********.NET writes:

> It is more than a simple DA conversion. The signal is run through a Vocoder
> to compress the audio. And then there is interleaving, were the signal is
> chopped up into segments and parts of each segment is mixed with the
> preceding segments, so you don't lose a whole segment. Then there is CDMA
> were you need a special code sequence to pick your message out of all the
> signals being sent at the same time. And many of these features are trade
> secrets. The have to work together but how each company implements them
are
> a secret. To able to pick up any complex signal would require more than
> magic is able to do.

<<<Initiate Rant Mode>>>

Ya know, I'm starting to become fed up with this thing that people have about
not mixing magic and technology. Face it, SR is the only game (which I know
of and care to play) in which you are capable of having a spell which can make
a radio broadcast which anyone can pick up on a normal radio.

I don't care for all of the technical mumbo-jumbo, because I don't know all of
the technical mumbo-jumbo. As a mage in SR, I would look at what I needed to
do, and then just did it, the wonders of spell design means I don't have to
worry about -ALL- of the nitty gritty things that happen in something else at
all.

<<<Terminate Rant Mode>>>

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Message no. 65 At 01:22 AM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/9/1998 2:32:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>starjammer@**********.COM writes:
>>
>> I don't know if it's impossible to build a DA conversion algorithm into a
>> spell formula, but there's not one spell in SR to date that handles
>> information processing.
>>
>Okay, now it's time to eat the Curds and Whey here folks. This statement is
>flat out false. Information conversion exist all over the place. The
ability
>to detect and analyze different types of information sources even exists.
And
>if you include the Foretelling spell from Awakenings, then that source even
>becomes Karmic Fate. Detect Enemies can pick up surface intents of opponents
>that the individual does not even have LOS of. Catalog reads intent, type,
>size, weight, etc...for objects and other *things* found within a given AoE.
>
>So again, I would suggest rethinking your wording here. Detection magic is
>just that, the ability to handle Information.
>
>-K

Sorry, but it's you who needs to read more carefully. First of all, the
spells you mention all function to gather *data*, not *information*. Nigel
Findley did a very good job of pointing out the difference in one of his
books; I think House of the Sun. And I specifically said information
*processing*. While there are lots of spells that gather data, and enhance
the user's ability to deal with that data, there are *none* that actually
*process* the information. No computation, no interpretation, not even
simple arithmetic. It all happens in the subject's head.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 66 At 10:30 AM 10-10-98 -0400, you wrote:

<snip>

> That's not necessarilly a flaw. They COULD simply leave Initiation
>as something that Adepts can do, and get some benefits from, but not nearly
>as many as mages, or really enough to make it worth the cost. You'd see
>fewer initiated Adepts, but that's not really broken, just different. Or
>they could lower the cost of initiation for Adepts.

<snip>

>Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking

Well, if the rumors are true then initiates will only be gaining one
metamagical power per initiation level, so that's good for a couple of
levels right there. And I can also see developing "physical" metamagic
that only Adepts can learn.

Two examples I can think of right off the top of my head would be the
ability to channel mana through a weapon that's not a weapon focus, and the
ability to draw chi (i.e. mana) from the environment to increase one's
abilities. Both of these are legendary martial arts abilities, and both
fall into the realm of metamagic IMO. And, of course, you can always make
up some really spiff adept powers and require initiation to learn them.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 67 At 12:00 PM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:
>
><<<Initiate Rant Mode>>>
>
>Ya know, I'm starting to become fed up with this thing that people have about
>not mixing magic and technology. Face it, SR is the only game (which I know
>of and care to play) in which you are capable of having a spell which can
make
>a radio broadcast which anyone can pick up on a normal radio.
>
>I don't care for all of the technical mumbo-jumbo, because I don't know
all of
>the technical mumbo-jumbo. As a mage in SR, I would look at what I needed to
>do, and then just did it, the wonders of spell design means I don't have to
>worry about -ALL- of the nitty gritty things that happen in something else at
>all.
>
><<<Terminate Rant Mode>>>
>
>-Herc
>------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

<<Initiate Humor Mode>>

SEATTLE, 10 OCT 2060 -- In a tragic accident today, a local mage died in an
act of magical self-immolation. Investigators have determined that the
as-yet-unnamed mage used a flawed spell formula of his own design. Sources
within the investigation report that the mage's friends urged him to
double-check his formula before trying it. Reportedly, the mage replied,
"Dammit, the wonder of spell-design is that I don't have to worry about all
those nitty gritty things!"

<<Terminate Humor Mode>>

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 68 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:15:40 -0400 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Sorry, but it's you who needs to read more carefully. First of all, the
>spells you mention all function to gather *data*, not *information*.
Nigel
>Findley did a very good job of pointing out the difference in one of his
>books; I think House of the Sun. And I specifically said information
>*processing*. While there are lots of spells that gather data, and
enhance
>the user's ability to deal with that data, there are *none* that
actually
>*process* the information. No computation, no interpretation, not even
>simple arithmetic. It all happens in the subject's head.

Awakenings, page 135: Translate ... Sounds like Information *processing*
to me ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

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Message no. 69 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:00:49 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
><<<Initiate Rant Mode>>>
>
>Ya know, I'm starting to become fed up with this thing that people have
about
>not mixing magic and technology. Face it, SR is the only game (which I
know
>of and care to play) in which you are capable of having a spell which
can make
>a radio broadcast which anyone can pick up on a normal radio.
>
>I don't care for all of the technical mumbo-jumbo, because I don't know
all of
>the technical mumbo-jumbo. As a mage in SR, I would look at what I
needed to
>do, and then just did it, the wonders of spell design means I don't have
to
>worry about -ALL- of the nitty gritty things that happen in something
else at
>all.
>
><<<Terminate Rant Mode>>>

I agree with you ... HOWEVER, I think what it comes down to is whether
you can make a spell that interprets the proper signals and converts them
back and forth to something your brain understands.

Think of it this way: If you dial a modem line you hear that whistling
sound of the modem trying to recognize you as a modem. Can you whistle
the correctly so that it will detect you as a modem then go on to
communicate with it through whistling? Even if you could, do you think
you would understand what the hell you are whistling the modem into
doing?

It would be AT LEAST that difficult to design a spell to accomplish what
you want. Now if you want the spell to put the raw radio signals into
your thoughts, no problem... It'll probably give you a headache, though
... Now if you want to broadcast and recieve radio signals properly
through a SERIES of spells, I could see that ...

In other words, the difficulty of working with technology and magic,
IMOM, stems, not from the incompatability of the two, but rather from the
complexity of the two.

On that note, has anyone thought of using physics, electronics,
psychology, etc... as compliemtary skills for Magical Theory (or whatever
will be used to design spells in MitS ... Magical Background?)?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 70 :> Hmm, how about instead of calling it Radio Broadcasting, I called it
Roar
:of
:> the Elephant. The reason being instead of having the Adept
communicate via
:> radio, the Adept is now communicating using sub-harmonics instead.
Like an
:> elephant can, and they are able to reach distances of 40+ miles or so.
:>
:> -Herc
:
:Well well well, catching up still eh? I like this little concept very
much.
:Sub and multi-harmonic communication are just barely being understood by
Man,
:at least as used by the Animal Kingdom(s).
:
:THIS power I could, and I could see it very useful as well.

It would also create some useful purpose to the "low frequency"
cyber-ear modification. HMM, would a voice modulator allow sub-sonic (or
ultrasonic) speach?

Mongoose

Message no. 71 At 02:30 PM 10-10-98 -0700, you wrote:
>
> It would also create some useful purpose to the "low frequency"
>cyber-ear modification. HMM, would a voice modulator allow sub-sonic (or
>ultrasonic) speach?
>
>Mongoose

There was a gang from a story in "Into the Shadows" that had something like
that, IIRC. They all had voice modulators that converted their speech into
hi-freq squeals, and cyber that demodulated the sounds back into speech for
their ears only. It was a gang symbol and form of encrypted communication
all in one, and one of the more clever things I recall from that book.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 72 At 01:06 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Awakenings, page 135: Translate ... Sounds like Information *processing*
>to me ...
>
>--
>D. Ghost

You didn't read the spell description, did you? (I did, before posting my
first statement, just to be sure.) Translate creates a telepathic link
between two speakers and transmits concepts directly between minds, which
the two people interpret as speech in their native language. The spell
isn't doing anything to the information except conveying it from one mind
to another.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 73 In a message dated 10/10/1998 11:36:54 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> Two examples I can think of right off the top of my head would be the
> ability to channel mana through a weapon that's not a weapon focus, and the
> ability to draw chi (i.e. mana) from the environment to increase one's
> abilities. Both of these are legendary martial arts abilities, and both
> fall into the realm of metamagic IMO. And, of course, you can always make
> up some really spiff adept powers and require initiation to learn them.
>
Channeling mana to increase one's abilities??? Okay, time to please consider
something. That is what an Adept (Physical Adept) is already doing. Now the
concept of channeling that mana (chi?) into a weapon and functioning through
it in that manner would be cool, I do admit. But then, the Killing
Hands/Distance Strike is already performing that, and with a far better reach
(as in, beyond the 10' pole I wouldn't touch *you the enemy* with).

IF a Physical Metamagic were to be developed, what would it actually be then?
This raises a killer thought or three. What kind of Metamagical 'Channeling'
would be particular to only the Adept and not available to the Magician???

-K

Message no. 74 In a message dated 10/10/1998 12:00:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> <<Initiate Humor Mode>>
>
> SEATTLE, 10 OCT 2060 -- In a tragic accident today, a local mage died in an
> act of magical self-immolation. Investigators have determined that the
> as-yet-unnamed mage used a flawed spell formula of his own design. Sources
> within the investigation report that the mage's friends urged him to
> double-check his formula before trying it. Reportedly, the mage replied,
> "Dammit, the wonder of spell-design is that I don't have to worry about all
> those nitty gritty things!"
>
> <<Terminate Humor Mode>>

<<Initiate Retraction Mode - Universal Slider's Campus - 10 OCT 2060>>

"But, while that incident did occur in Tangental Universality 'PDQ', it is was
happy to note that the same magician in TU 'XYZ' was highly successful and
managed to successfully listen in to the Portable Radio utilized by the
assisting Lone Star authorities. The break through will no doubt mean an
increased level of response ability between Lone Star Field Operators of all
kinds, be they highly sensitive to cybernetic implantation or just plain ol'
mundane beat guys like you and I."

<</End RM - USC -10 OCT 2060>>

-K

Message no. 75 In a message dated 10/10/1998 1:13:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

>
> On that note, has anyone thought of using physics, electronics,
> psychology, etc... as compliemtary skills for Magical Theory (or whatever
> will be used to design spells in MitS ... Magical Background?)?
>
> --
Actually, yes. In a conversation with Steve Kenson on the AOL IM program a
month or so ago, the concept of B/R Skills being used as "Complimentary
Skills" with regards to a Fix Spellcasting were deemed *possible*. The
concept of Psychology with regards to Mind Probe or even Interrogation
(Magical Assisted Methods) could also come into play. Hell, potentially even
Biotech and Heal/Treat, for that matter.

And as for Electronics and/or Physics as a Complimentary Skill? Why of
course, as in a Complimentary Skill to help comprehend the complexities that
would be required as a "Radio Sensory Perception" spell might involve. And
any headaches would be translated in SR# as the drain involved with the equal
complexity.

Thanks D....I needed this thought...

-K

Message no. 76 In a message dated 10/10/1998 2:27:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> :> Hmm, how about instead of calling it Radio Broadcasting, I called it
> Roar
> :of
> :> the Elephant. The reason being instead of having the Adept
> communicate via
> :> radio, the Adept is now communicating using sub-harmonics instead.
> Like an
> :> elephant can, and they are able to reach distances of 40+ miles or so.
> :>
> :> -Herc
> :
> :Well well well, catching up still eh? I like this little concept very
> much.
> :Sub and multi-harmonic communication are just barely being understood by
> Man,
> :at least as used by the Animal Kingdom(s).
> :
> :THIS power I could, and I could see it very useful as well.
>
>
> It would also create some useful purpose to the "low frequency"
> cyber-ear modification. HMM, would a voice modulator allow sub-sonic (or
> ultrasonic) speach?
>
We've done this in our games for a while now already. But usually require the
Voice Modulator to have an additional modification done to it for the
respective frequency range that is being used and then use the same essence
costs for it as the hearing modification itself has. Same monetary
requirement as well for that matter.

And it is a blast....think about it.

-K

Message no. 77 In a message dated 10/10/1998 3:29:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> You didn't read the spell description, did you? (I did, before posting my
> first statement, just to be sure.) Translate creates a telepathic link
> between two speakers and transmits concepts directly between minds, which
> the two people interpret as speech in their native language. The spell
> isn't doing anything to the information except conveying it from one mind
> to another.

Yes, it is converting "raw thought patterns" into a transmittable
communication form that works with the other mind as well. Please remember
that the Language centers of the brain respond to their upbringing and
coordinative linguistics as well, so the basic "Telepathic Link" even does
some of the conversion at this range. I merely wish to point out that
consideration of the words "Conversion" "Information" and
"Data" are being
taken into personal bias here by all of us. All Detection Magic that involved
Telepathic Links IMO creates a conversion method of some form that then acts
as the compensation for the means to whatever end is being desired.

-K

-K

Message no. 78 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:18:00 -0400 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
>At 01:06 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Awakenings, page 135: Translate ... Sounds like Information
*processing*
>>to me ...

>You didn't read the spell description, did you? (I did, before posting
my
>first statement, just to be sure.)

I read it, before posting MY statement, just to be sure ... I was
original going to give Catalogue as an example.

>Translate creates a telepathic link
>between two speakers and transmits concepts directly between minds,
which
>the two people interpret as speech in their native language. The spell
>isn't doing anything to the information except conveying it from one
mind
>to another.

And??? How is that NOT information processing? The spell takes X mental
image or emotion from one and translates into Y mental image or emotion
that has the same meaning for the other. Sounds like some hefty abstract
reasoning and descision capabilty to me ... In other words, this spell
does (IMO) process data.

Other Spells that could qualify as "Information Processing":
Detect Enemies
Control Manipulations (Iffy)
Combat Sense

Oh boy ... I hope this doesn't turn out like Mechanical Limbs thread were
we keep saying the same thing and can't understand why the other can't
see our point. (I think that stemmed from differing conceptions of R2
sensors ...)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 79 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:58:08 -0500 "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM> writes:
>On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:00:49 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>><<<Initiate Rant Mode>>>
>>
>>Ya know, I'm starting to become fed up with this thing that people have
about
>>not mixing magic and technology. Face it, SR is the only game (which I
know
>>of and care to play) in which you are capable of having a spell which
can make
>>a radio broadcast which anyone can pick up on a normal radio.
>>
>>I don't care for all of the technical mumbo-jumbo, because I don't know
all of
>>the technical mumbo-jumbo. As a mage in SR, I would look at what I
needed to
>>do, and then just did it, the wonders of spell design means I don't
have to
>>worry about -ALL- of the nitty gritty things that happen in something
else at
>>all.
>>
>><<<Terminate Rant Mode>>>

>I agree with you ... HOWEVER, I think what it comes down to is whether
>you can make a spell that interprets the proper signals and converts
>them back and forth to something your brain understands.

On further thought, I have to change stances ... I think it's entirely
possible but drain should reflect how much one format (radio
transimissions) differs from another (your brainwaves) and if you want to
handle Analog (relatively easy), digital (relatively hard), or both
(Relatively REALLY hard).

<SNIP>

On that note, how about this:

Spell: Flip Bits
Physical (Manipulation?) spell (with Electricty Elemental Effect?).
Translates thoughts into binary ASCII text and vice versa and flips bits
as well as reads them in a computer to establish telepathic communication
with a properly programmed (GM's descretion) computer.

What do you think? Stretching things too far?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

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Message no. 80 In a message dated 98-10-10 18:44:30 EDT, you write:

<< Spell: Flip Bits
Physical (Manipulation?) spell (with Electricty Elemental Effect?).
Translates thoughts into binary ASCII text and vice versa and flips bits
as well as reads them in a computer to establish telepathic communication
with a properly programmed (GM's descretion) computer.

What do you think? Stretching things too far? >>

That I could see... sort of. If someone asked me, I'd say it had a high TN
to get it to work, speed of communication was based on number of successes,
(I.E. Max speed of link = 1 "sentance" per success per combat turn) and would
have a very nasty drain to represent the amount of energy being used.

Message no. 81 At 05:58 PM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 10/10/1998 11:36:54 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>starjammer@**********.COM writes:
>
>>
>> Two examples I can think of right off the top of my head would be the
>> ability to channel mana through a weapon that's not a weapon focus, and
the
>> ability to draw chi (i.e. mana) from the environment to increase one's
>> abilities. Both of these are legendary martial arts abilities, and both
>> fall into the realm of metamagic IMO. And, of course, you can always make
>> up some really spiff adept powers and require initiation to learn them.
>>
>Channeling mana to increase one's abilities??? Okay, time to please consider
>something. That is what an Adept (Physical Adept) is already doing. Now the
>concept of channeling that mana (chi?) into a weapon and functioning through
>it in that manner would be cool, I do admit. But then, the Killing
>Hands/Distance Strike is already performing that, and with a far better reach
>(as in, beyond the 10' pole I wouldn't touch *you the enemy* with).

Okay, I didn't state that clearly enough. In many asian philosophies,
especially those connected to the martial arts, strong natural places like
primordial forests, waterfalls, etc. are said to have a great deal of
natural energy, or chi. If a martial artist can go to that place and
meditate, bringing himself into "tune" with that energy, he can tap it to
augment his own chi. In other words, make his own abilities stronger,
speed his healing, etc. Sort of the way that a Druid in their home Circle
can use the mana of the place in their favor.

For example, if my Mystic Armor power is what I call "Becoming the
Mountain's Heart," then channeling the chi of an actual mountain through my
being would amplify that ability.

As for the weapon stuff, mostly what I was thinking was enabling the adept
to combine their powers with a weapon. For example, what if you could
metamagically combine your Killing Hands/Distance strike combo with a
sword? With a weapon focus? You slash and a cut opens up on an earth
elemental 10 feet away. Somewhat extreme, I grant, but just an idea I'm
throwing out.

>IF a Physical Metamagic were to be developed, what would it actually be then?
>This raises a killer thought or three. What kind of Metamagical 'Channeling'
>would be particular to only the Adept and not available to the Magician???
>
>-K

Well, metamagic is defined as the direct manipulation of magical energy
(usually considered to be an order of magnitude beyond the basic magical
skills). Since adept abilities deal with focusing mana through the mind
and body, then I'd say you could amplify those abilities. I'd probably
start by restricting some of the more radical adept abilities to initiates
(like Delay Damage and Distance Strike), allow regular abilities to be
taken farther (like higher levels of Increase Reflexes or Combat Sense),
and work from there.

All IMHO, of course.
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 82 At 05:35 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
>On that note, how about this:
>
>Spell: Flip Bits
>Physical (Manipulation?) spell (with Electricty Elemental Effect?).
>Translates thoughts into binary ASCII text and vice versa and flips bits
>as well as reads them in a computer to establish telepathic communication
>with a properly programmed (GM's descretion) computer.
>
>What do you think? Stretching things too far?

My standing objections aside, let me give you three words to consider:
spell-based otaku. 'Cause if this is where it starts, that's where it'll
end. Think about a mage with a whole bunch of quickened and cascading
anchored spells that perform all the functions of a decker, who could
essentially be immune to all the negative side-effects by anchoring his
spells with deactivation links and detection spells.

Or, for that matter, what happens when a spell-worm invents a virus spell?
Yup, just write that virus program right into the spell formula and start
casting. Won't be a piece of electronics more complicated than an abacus
that'll be safe. Watch out Deep Resonance, here comes the Matrix Mage! :)

Ignoring for a moment the whether or not spells can do this, IMHO that's a
pretty good reason for why they shouldn't.

>--
>D. Ghost

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 83 At 05:23 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:

>>Translate creates a telepathic link
>>between two speakers and transmits concepts directly between minds,
>which
>>the two people interpret as speech in their native language. The spell
>>isn't doing anything to the information except conveying it from one
>mind
>>to another.
>
>And??? How is that NOT information processing? The spell takes X mental
>image or emotion from one and translates into Y mental image or emotion
>that has the same meaning for the other. Sounds like some hefty abstract
>reasoning and descision capabilty to me ... In other words, this spell
>does (IMO) process data.

Because the spell does NOT change the information. That happens in the
brain. The spell just puts the concept that I formulated directly into
your head, and your brain "hears" the language that best suits that
concept. That's why the spell description warns against relying on this
spell for subtlety, because the spell is sending what I mean, not what I'd
like you to hear.

From what I can tell, SR assumes that at a certain fundamental level all
brains work the same. They'd pretty much have to, otherwise datajacks
would have to be custom-mapped to every last higher function in the brain,
just to make sure you interpret the data the way you're supposed to. So it
doesn't require a "translation" for you to receive my thought-concept; your
brain already knows what it means.

>Other Spells that could qualify as "Information Processing":
>Detect Enemies
>Control Manipulations (Iffy)
>Combat Sense

Nope. Detect Enemies allows you to feel hostile intent towards you, but so
does assensing. It's more like the spell opens up your awareness to that
particular wavelength of psychic energy. For control manipulations, apply
what I said above. The spell splices me into your central nervous system,
but I send the signals. Combat sense improves the subject's own analytical
ability, it doesn't do the analyzing for you.

>Oh boy ... I hope this doesn't turn out like Mechanical Limbs thread were
>we keep saying the same thing and can't understand why the other can't
>see our point. (I think that stemmed from differing conceptions of R2
>sensors ...)

I hope not also. The bottom line is that I've read every spell description
in all the BBBs, both Grimoires, and Awakenings (just for this topic, I
like to do my homework), and I can't find a single one whose operation
undeniably points to the spell, and only the spell, performing a logical
function (in the computational sense). I see the spell enhancing the
subject's abilities in those regards, but even that seems to have severe
limits. The closest thing to it seems to be anchoring metamagic, and
that's very crude. I can agree to disagree, but I don't think I'll be
persuaded.

>--
>D. Ghost

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 84 In a message dated 10/10/1998 5:44:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

>
> Spell: Flip Bits
> Physical (Manipulation?) spell (with Electricty Elemental Effect?).
> Translates thoughts into binary ASCII text and vice versa and flips bits
> as well as reads them in a computer to establish telepathic communication
> with a properly programmed (GM's descretion) computer.
>
> What do you think? Stretching things too far?

Gosh, and the spell design idea we had in mind is now standing within an
entirely different bit of email. DAMN!!!

But, I like the name, if not the general context. I'm just not sure "why?" on
this one myself. A new form of encryption???

-K

Message no. 85 And so it came to happen that D. Ghost wrote:
----------
> <SNIP>
> ><<<Initiate Rant Mode>>>
> >
> >Ya know, I'm starting to become fed up with this thing that people have
> about
> >not mixing magic and technology. Face it, SR is the only game (which I
> know
> >of and care to play) in which you are capable of having a spell which
> can make
> >a radio broadcast which anyone can pick up on a normal radio.
> >
> >I don't care for all of the technical mumbo-jumbo, because I don't know
> all of
> >the technical mumbo-jumbo. As a mage in SR, I would look at what I
> needed to
> >do, and then just did it, the wonders of spell design means I don't have
> to
> >worry about -ALL- of the nitty gritty things that happen in something
> else at
> >all.
> >
> ><<<Terminate Rant Mode>>>
>
> I agree with you ... HOWEVER, I think what it comes down to is whether
> you can make a spell that interprets the proper signals and converts them
> back and forth to something your brain understands.
>
> Think of it this way: If you dial a modem line you hear that whistling
> sound of the modem trying to recognize you as a modem. Can you whistle
> the correctly so that it will detect you as a modem then go on to
> communicate with it through whistling? Even if you could, do you think
> you would understand what the hell you are whistling the modem into
> doing?

OTOH, how easily could you perceive the feelings, the thoughts or wether or
not he is ill of some kind simply by looking at a whirlwind of spinning and
twisting colours? Thats what Auras look like I think.

> It would be AT LEAST that difficult to design a spell to accomplish what
> you want. Now if you want the spell to put the raw radio signals into
> your thoughts, no problem... It'll probably give you a headache, though
> ... Now if you want to broadcast and recieve radio signals properly
> through a SERIES of spells, I could see that ...
>
> In other words, the difficulty of working with technology and magic,
> IMOM, stems, not from the incompatability of the two, but rather from the
> complexity of the two.

Thats right, we here have to proffesions that do not intermix good. I see
it like to Engineers, one is Bioengineer, the other is a
Computerarchitectureengineer. Both know a lot of engineering, but I think
that no knows what the other is talking about.

> On that note, has anyone thought of using physics, electronics,
> psychology, etc... as compliemtary skills for Magical Theory (or whatever
> will be used to design spells in MitS ... Magical Background?)?

Yes I have thought about that and found it apropriate to use in some
special kind of formulas. For example psychology for the Control
Manipulations, Physics and/or Chemistry for Elemental Manipulations and
Biotech for Health. Thats it so far I have come, but these above are just
guidelines for me and my players. It depends on the Spell that the awakend
wants to create. And, BTW, it will need three sucesses here in my group for
the complimentary, as the mundane sight of things could interfere with the
awakened view of things.
All IMO of course.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.

Message no. 86 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:41:51 -0400 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
>At 05:23 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Translate creates a telepathic link
>>>between two speakers and transmits concepts directly between minds,
which
>>>the two people interpret as speech in their native language. The
spell
>>>isn't doing anything to the information except conveying it from one
mind
>>>to another.

>>And??? How is that NOT information processing? The spell takes X
mental
>>image or emotion from one and translates into Y mental image or emotion
>>that has the same meaning for the other. Sounds like some hefty
abstract
>>reasoning and descision capabilty to me ... In other words, this spell
>>does (IMO) process data.

>Because the spell does NOT change the information. That happens in the
>brain. The spell just puts the concept that I formulated directly into
>your head, and your brain "hears" the language that best suits that
>concept. That's why the spell description warns against relying on this
>spell for subtlety, because the spell is sending what I mean, not what
I'd
>like you to hear.
>
>From what I can tell, SR assumes that at a certain fundamental level all
>brains work the same. They'd pretty much have to, otherwise datajacks
>would have to be custom-mapped to every last higher function in the
brain,
>just to make sure you interpret the data the way you're supposed to. So
it
>doesn't require a "translation" for you to receive my thought-concept;
your
>brain already knows what it means.

But the thing is what happens if a conversation with war afficiando
results in pleasant thoughts of WW2 while talking (under effects of a
translate spell) with a Jewish Holocaust survivor. If the spell just
transplants mental images, the intent will be scrambled. The spell, in
order to maintain intent, must search out a image (or perhaps a series of
images) that holds a similar meaning for the second party. Does that not
count as information processing.

>>Other Spells that could qualify as "Information Processing":
>>Detect Enemies
>>Control Manipulations (Iffy)
>>Combat Sense

>Nope. Detect Enemies allows you to feel hostile intent towards you, but
so
>does assensing. It's more like the spell opens up your awareness to
that
>particular wavelength of psychic energy. For control manipulations,
apply
>what I said above. The spell splices me into your central nervous
system,
>but I send the signals. Combat sense improves the subject's own
analytical
>ability, it doesn't do the analyzing for you.

Does it? How can it augment your analytical abilty with out doing some
of its own? Compare this and Increase Attribute (Intelligence) +X to
Cerebral Boosters, Encephalon, Tactical Computer, and SPU. All of these
augment the analytical ability by assuming varying amounts of the work
themselves.

>>Oh boy ... I hope this doesn't turn out like Mechanical Limbs thread
were
>>we keep saying the same thing and can't understand why the other can't
>>see our point. (I think that stemmed from differing conceptions of R2
>>sensors ...)

>I hope not also. The bottom line is that I've read every spell
description
>in all the BBBs, both Grimoires, and Awakenings (just for this topic, I
>like to do my homework), and I can't find a single one whose operation
>undeniably points to the spell, and only the spell, performing a logical
>function (in the computational sense). I see the spell enhancing the
>subject's abilities in those regards, but even that seems to have severe
>limits. The closest thing to it seems to be anchoring metamagic, and
>that's very crude. I can agree to disagree, but I don't think I'll be
>persuaded.

I agree that no spell UNDENIABLY includes information processing.
However, several spells can be interpreted as performing information
processing. There is no absolute proof one way or the other and so it
comes down to campaign choices by a GM.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 87 In a message dated 10/10/1998 7:00:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> Okay, I didn't state that clearly enough. In many asian philosophies,
> especially those connected to the martial arts, strong natural places like
> primordial forests, waterfalls, etc. are said to have a great deal of
> natural energy, or chi. If a martial artist can go to that place and
> meditate, bringing himself into "tune" with that energy, he can tap it to
> augment his own chi. In other words, make his own abilities stronger,
> speed his healing, etc. Sort of the way that a Druid in their home Circle
> can use the mana of the place in their favor.

Okay, this little idea is something we have explored here as well. This I can
understand.

> For example, if my Mystic Armor power is what I call "Becoming the
> Mountain's Heart," then channeling the chi of an actual mountain through my
> being would amplify that ability.

Again, a nifty idea. And I agree that it is too bad that SR's magic system
isn't well structured for this currently.

> As for the weapon stuff, mostly what I was thinking was enabling the adept
> to combine their powers with a weapon. For example, what if you could
> metamagically combine your Killing Hands/Distance strike combo with a
> sword? With a weapon focus? You slash and a cut opens up on an earth
> elemental 10 feet away. Somewhat extreme, I grant, but just an idea I'm
> throwing out.

Actually, the Distance Strike ability does not have that many limitations. A
variation on it could readily be developed that had to do with Melee Weapons,
and not Unarmed Combat. Now the idea of a Weapon Focus??? I don't know. I
*personally* think it would be neat, but as a part-time GM in a long lasting
group, I've seen what *those* things can do to a game at nearly any level.

> >IF a Physical Metamagic were to be developed, what would it actually be
> then?
> >This raises a killer thought or three. What kind of Metamagical '
> Channeling'
> >would be particular to only the Adept and not available to the Magician???
> >
> >-K
>
> Well, metamagic is defined as the direct manipulation of magical energy
> (usually considered to be an order of magnitude beyond the basic magical
> skills). Since adept abilities deal with focusing mana through the mind
> and body, then I'd say you could amplify those abilities. I'd probably
> start by restricting some of the more radical adept abilities to initiates
> (like Delay Damage and Distance Strike), allow regular abilities to be
> taken farther (like higher levels of Increase Reflexes or Combat Sense),
> and work from there.

The only real question I have then is where did you get this definition and
thereby create this comparison/idea? Restricting the given Adept abilities is
one way, I do agree, that you could gauge out some of the abilities, but at
the same time, it also restricts what may already exist currently. And as for
higher levels of Increase Reflexes, I don't know. I just don't have the fun
with games that become "I'm faster than you are..." matches. Sure, someone is
going to need to be fast, but not *THAT* fast... ;P

-K

Message no. 88 At 08:42 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>But the thing is what happens if a conversation with war afficiando
>results in pleasant thoughts of WW2 while talking (under effects of a
>translate spell) with a Jewish Holocaust survivor. If the spell just
>transplants mental images, the intent will be scrambled. The spell, in
>order to maintain intent, must search out a image (or perhaps a series of
>images) that holds a similar meaning for the second party. Does that not
>count as information processing.

Like it says in the spell description, and I quoted in my post: The spell
is not good at subtle, and does not replace the tact of a translator. In
other words, the spell does not make the distinctions you describe.

>Does it? How can it augment your analytical abilty with out doing some
>of its own? Compare this and Increase Attribute (Intelligence) +X to
>Cerebral Boosters, Encephalon, Tactical Computer, and SPU. All of these
>augment the analytical ability by assuming varying amounts of the work
>themselves.

If I inject you with epinephrine (adrenaline), your body will get an energy
boost. Not because you've got an extra heart, or more blood volume, or
anything like that. Just because your existing system has been pumped up
to a higher level by an outside influence.

>D. Ghost

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 89 At 10:09 PM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>The only real question I have then is where did you get this definition and
>thereby create this comparison/idea? Restricting the given Adept
abilities is
>one way, I do agree, that you could gauge out some of the abilities, but at
>the same time, it also restricts what may already exist currently. And as
for
>higher levels of Increase Reflexes, I don't know. I just don't have the fun
>with games that become "I'm faster than you are..." matches. Sure,
someone is
>going to need to be fast, but not *THAT* fast... ;P
>
>-K

These are just ideas off the top of my head. YMMV. Since FASA has yet to
put me on their payroll, I have yet to turn my time and attention to
serious game design. :)

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

Message no. 90 On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:41:21 -0400 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
>At 08:42 PM 10-10-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>But the thing is what happens if a conversation with war afficiando
>>results in pleasant thoughts of WW2 while talking (under effects of a
>>translate spell) with a Jewish Holocaust survivor. If the spell just
>>transplants mental images, the intent will be scrambled. The spell, in
>>order to maintain intent, must search out a image (or perhaps a series
of
>>images) that holds a similar meaning for the second party. Does that
not
>>count as information processing.

>Like it says in the spell description, and I quoted in my post: The
spell
>is not good at subtle, and does not replace the tact of a translator.
In
>other words, the spell does not make the distinctions you describe.

"... the spell translates a speaker's intent more accurately than his
exact phrasing..." (Page 135 Awakenings, Translate spell description.)
Which seems to imply that it DOES in fact make the distinction I
mentioned. However, the description then goes on to say, "... so it is
no replacement for the tact of a skilled translator." Which seems to
indicate that the spell doesn't make the distinction. Doesn't the
conveyance of the original intent properly imply the use of tact
skillfully or am I missing/assuming something I don't realize?

>>Does it? How can it augment your analytical abilty with out doing some
>>of its own? Compare this and Increase Attribute (Intelligence) +X to
>>Cerebral Boosters, Encephalon, Tactical Computer, and SPU. All of
these
>>augment the analytical ability by assuming varying amounts of the work
>>themselves.

>If I inject you with epinephrine (adrenaline), your body will get an
energy
>boost. Not because you've got an extra heart, or more blood volume, or
>anything like that. Just because your existing system has been pumped
up
>to a higher level by an outside influence.

that is only a valid comparison if thinking faster equates to being
smarter. Adrenaline gives you an "energy boost" via chemical reactions.
I don't think you can compare an adrenaline surge to the ability to
correlate facts and extrapolate and interprolate conclusions. Why? No
clue. Just a gut feeling, I guess. I mean what does a +1 to
Intelligence MEAN?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 91 >Think of it this way: If you dial a modem line you hear that whistling
>sound of the modem trying to recognize you as a modem. Can you whistle
>the correctly so that it will detect you as a modem then go on to
>communicate with it through whistling? Even if you could, do you think
>you would understand what the hell you are whistling the modem into
>doing?

Yes, and yes.

I know guys who work in the department responsible for EFT and ATM
technology of a bank.

They can whistle the DTMF tones with enough accuracy to establish handshake
with a modem; only a slow modem admittedly (either 2400 or 9600 IIRC) - but
they knew what they were whistling, and they succeeded in doing it.

Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -

Message no. 92 On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:23:20 +1000 Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
writes:
>>Think of it this way: If you dial a modem line you hear that whistling
>>sound of the modem trying to recognize you as a modem. Can you whistle
>>the correctly so that it will detect you as a modem then go on to
>>communicate with it through whistling? Even if you could, do you think
>>you would understand what the hell you are whistling the modem into
doing?

>Yes, and yes.
>
>I know guys who work in the department responsible for EFT and ATM
>technology of a bank.
>
>They can whistle the DTMF tones with enough accuracy to establish
handshake
>with a modem; only a slow modem admittedly (either 2400 or 9600 IIRC) -
but
>they knew what they were whistling, and they succeeded in doing it.

Yes, but can they get the modem to do anything else? like transfer a
file?

Additionally, this is analog communication we're talking about. I
already conceded that with analog communication the adept ability was
possible. Now try asking them if they can mimic digital communication.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 93 D. Ghost writes:
> >They can whistle the DTMF tones with enough accuracy to establish
> handshake
> >with a modem; only a slow modem admittedly (either 2400 or 9600 IIRC) -
> but
> >they knew what they were whistling, and they succeeded in doing it.
>
> Yes, but can they get the modem to do anything else? like transfer a
> file?

There have been people who can whistle data tones at 300 baud. I don't know
about faster rates. And yes, they can do such things as transfer files.

> Additionally, this is analog communication we're talking about. I
> already conceded that with analog communication the adept ability was
> possible. Now try asking them if they can mimic digital communication.

It's not analog communication. It's an analog medium sending digital
signals, much like digital radio, or, for that matter, HDTV.

For what it's worth, the analog variant is harder than the digital variant.
In a digital medium, all you need to be able to do is send the signal and
not send the signal, and switch between the two states fast enough.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

Message no. 94 On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:57:38 +1000 Robert Watkins
<robert.watkins@******.COM> writes:
>D. Ghost writes:
>> >They can whistle the DTMF tones with enough accuracy to establish
handshake
>> >with a modem; only a slow modem admittedly (either 2400 or 9600 IIRC)
- but
>> >they knew what they were whistling, and they succeeded in doing it.

>> Yes, but can they get the modem to do anything else? like transfer a
>> file?

>There have been people who can whistle data tones at 300 baud. I don't
know
>about faster rates. And yes, they can do such things as transfer files.

Now THIS impresses me (not that I can do the first. :).

>> Additionally, this is analog communication we're talking about. I
>> already conceded that with analog communication the adept ability was
>> possible. Now try asking them if they can mimic digital
communication.

>It's not analog communication. It's an analog medium sending digital
>signals, much like digital radio, or, for that matter, HDTV.
>
>For what it's worth, the analog variant is harder than the digital
variant.
>In a digital medium, all you need to be able to do is send the signal
and
>not send the signal, and switch between the two states fast enough.

But how fast is fast enough?

You know this is starting to sound like you don't need any special PhysAd
ability for computer access, just pick up the mimicry PhysAd power (See
the Physical Adept's Handy when the Archive is back online.) ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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