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From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	[SR3] Adepts
Date:	Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:59:27 EDT

Message no. 1 In a message dated 8/13/1998 12:25:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU writes:

> Okay already, I've heard a whole heap of rumours and half-descriptions
> from a variety of sources about how PhysAds can now buy extra points of
> magic for 20 points of Karma. Can they do so mulitple times (kinda like
> improving a skill level in 2nd Edition I suppose)? If they can, are the
> still able to get initiated, and if they can get initiated, what
> powers/advantages do they receive from it... Someone enlighten me okay?
>
>
> - ARKHAM

Can an Adept (Physical Adept in pre-SR3) use the direct karma ability to
purchase abilities? Yes. As many as they have Karma far, IIRC.

Can they initiate? Again, yes, but ALL initiation rules are in the upcoming
MitS book this winter. ALL information we (members of the list and other
places) have is either from insider knowledge from gametesting or contributor-
born or questions that Steve was able to answer at Gencon.

Why should an Adept move through Initiation if they can buy powers directly?
I don't know myself, as it does change things. There is something that I can
think of however quickly. Some of the abilities may have to do with the Magic
Attribute (Distance Strike in Awakenings has a range IIRC), and as such need
the attribute to be increased in some manner.

As far as I know, Power Foci do NOT add to the attribute for an Adept, but I'm
certain there could be some manner of Foci that could be created, were the GM
to allow such.

Also, there are indications of reworked Metamagic in the MitS, though to what
extent, I am as yet, unknowing (though I can venture some various guessworks,
as can many).

All IMO
-K

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts
Date:	Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:56:27 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 8/13/98 2:00:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.COM writes:

> Can an Adept (Physical Adept in pre-SR3) use the direct karma ability to
> purchase abilities? Yes. As many as they have Karma far, IIRC.

I would have pointed this out to K but he just went off to work ... go to
pp.55 of the SR3 ... top right hand column ... and quoted below (tm and
copyrighted also by FASA) ...

"All starting adepts receive a number of of Power Points equal to their Magic
Rating ... Players of Adepts CANNOT purhase or sell extra Power Points."

So, no, PADS (Adepts) can not purchase additional abilities ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts
Date:	Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:20:22 EDT

Message no. 3 In a message dated 8/13/98 12:00:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.COM writes:

> Why should an Adept move through Initiation if they can buy powers directly?
> I don't know myself, as it does change things. There is something that I
> can
> think of however quickly. Some of the abilities may have to do with the
> Magic
> Attribute (Distance Strike in Awakenings has a range IIRC), and as such
need
> the attribute to be increased in some manner.
I would say for lower levels of initiation where it is cheaper than the cost
of buying the point itself, as well as Masking and Centering (for use with
enhanced Centering)

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:03:38 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 8/13/1998 3:58:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

> I would have pointed this out to K but he just went off to work ... go to
> pp.55 of the SR3 ... top right hand column ... and quoted below (tm and
> copyrighted also by FASA) ...
>
> "All starting adepts receive a number of of Power Points equal to their
> Magic
> Rating ... Players of Adepts CANNOT purhase or sell extra Power Points."
>
> So, no, PADS (Adepts) can not purchase additional abilities ...
>
And the point is? This is part of the beginning character stuff, not part of
the advancement material. Explain more???

-K

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:31:26 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated 8/14/98 2:06:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.COM writes:

> > I would have pointed this out to K but he just went off to work ... go to
> > pp.55 of the SR3 ... top right hand column ... and quoted below (tm and
> > copyrighted also by FASA) ...
> >
> > "All starting adepts receive a number of of Power Points equal to their
> > Magic
> > Rating ... Players of Adepts CANNOT purhase or sell extra Power Points."
> >
> > So, no, PADS (Adepts) can not purchase additional abilities ...
> >
> And the point is? This is part of the beginning character stuff, not part
> of
> the advancement material. Explain more???
>
This is during character creation only ... it does not apply once the game
actually begins, then initiation and karma-purchasing can begin ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	"Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject:	[SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:25:49 +1000

Message no. 6 Not trying to start up anything controversial again, but it doesn't look
like my local retailers will be getting SR3 in for a while.

So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.

Thanks,

Doc'

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:45:24 +0200

Message no. 7 Ratinac, Rand (NSW) said on 12:25/4 Sep 98,...

> So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
> how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
> there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.

They're still basically the same as in SRII, except you now buy powers
using Power points -- and you start with a number of Power points equal to
your Magic Attribute. So in essence, what they did was change the name of
the beast and nothing else.

A further slight change (improvement) is that you can buy extra Power
points with Good Karma. They also limited the level to which you can buy a
power, namely equal to your Magic attribute -- no starting adepts with 9
points of Pain Resistance, for example.

Apart from that they tweaked the powers a bit, but made no other real
changes that I've seen (but I haven't really read the Magic chapter yet,
I've just browsed through it a bit).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:15:54 -0400

Message no. 8 Gurth wrote:
>
> Ratinac, Rand (NSW) said on 12:25/4 Sep 98,...
>
> > So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
> > how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
> > there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.

> Apart from that they tweaked the powers a bit, but made no other real
> changes that I've seen (but I haven't really read the Magic chapter yet,
> I've just browsed through it a bit).

One tweak that I found is that they combined Imp. Reflex and Imp.
Reaction of SR2 into Imp. Reflex which now acts exactly like wired
reflexes at an equivalent cost. (power cost in power points=essence
cost of cyberware at same level)

<snip sig>

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
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PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------

From:	"Dimitrios \"Cybertroll\" Antoniou"
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:11:54 +0300

Message no. 9 Gurth wrote:

> Ratinac, Rand (NSW) said on 12:25/4 Sep 98,...
>
> > So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
> > how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
> > there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.
>
> They're still basically the same as in SRII, except you now buy powers
> using Power points -- and you start with a number of Power points equal to
> your Magic Attribute. So in essence, what they did was change the name of
> the beast and nothing else.
>
> A further slight change (improvement) is that you can buy extra Power
> points with Good Karma. They also limited the level to which you can buy a
> power, namely equal to your Magic attribute -- no starting adepts with 9
> points of Pain Resistance, for example.
>
> Apart from that they tweaked the powers a bit, but made no other real
> changes that I've seen (but I haven't really read the Magic chapter yet,
> I've just browsed through it a bit).
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
> -> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>

First I have to say hi to all of u chummers out there in the shadows... I am
new in the list (subscribed just yesterday) and I think I'm gonna love it here
:-)

So on with my points... Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept powers do
with no essence cost... So what's the point of playing an adept since u can
have a character with essense 6.0 and powers like he was a Street Samurai or
an adept? It's even better cause u don't have many problems with magic stuff
etc... I beleive that FASA should give a little more attention to their adept
characters and make them a little bit different... more unique powers that
differ from Bioware and Cyberware stuff etc...

Cybertroll

--
E-Mail : ginf5dia@******.aua.gr
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
EGN# : 22678 U don't know what EGN is? go to http://www.entr.net to find out
:-)
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From:	Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:54:45 +1000

Message no. 10 >So on with my points... Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
>released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept powers
do
>with no essence cost... So what's the point of playing an adept since u can
>have a character with essense 6.0 and powers like he was a Street Samurai
or
>an adept? It's even better cause u don't have many problems with magic
stuff
>etc... I beleive that FASA should give a little more attention to their
adept
>characters and make them a little bit different... more unique powers that
>differ from Bioware and Cyberware stuff etc...
>
>Cybertroll

<snip sigs and previous posts>

I disagree because I see bioware as more the adepts answer to cyberware, it
lets them get cyberware type abilities without having to lose power points.

I'm Always Here, You Just Don't See Me:)

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:00:25 -0400

Message no. 11 >So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
>how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
>there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.

Some of the powers are cheaper also.
Mystic Armor is now only .5
Increased Physical Attribute is only .5 up to Racial Max which I believe
means the 1.5 times past...and then 1 put past Racial Max...which I think
means up to 2 x Race Modified Limit (ie. Str 12 for human)
(I'm not sure about that...seems a bit misleading in the example)

They also included abilities listed in The Grim (Mystic Armor) and
Awakenings (Rapid Healing, Magic Resistance)

The the Increased Skills section changed too because the Skills changed.
Used to be 1 point to increase Firearms, now it's .5 points to increase
Pistols, etc.
--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

From:	Andrew Gwilliam <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:09:15 +0100

Message no. 12 >
>
>
> I disagree because I see bioware as more the adepts answer to cyberware, it
> lets them get cyberware type abilities without having to lose power points.
>
> I'm Always Here, You Just Don't See Me:)
>

That is wrong bioware costs essence for magically active characters so they lose
magic points.

KO

From:	"Dimitrios \"Cybertroll\" Antoniou"
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:54:49 +0300

Message no. 13 Andrew Gwilliam wrote:

> >
> >
> >
> > I disagree because I see bioware as more the adepts answer to cyberware, it
> > lets them get cyberware type abilities without having to lose power points.
> >
> > I'm Always Here, You Just Don't See Me:)
> >
>
> That is wrong bioware costs essence for magically active characters so they lose
> magic points.
>
> KO

Yeap it costs essence just like the mages...
That's why I said that adepts lost their touch since the Bioware stuff came out...

Cybertroll

--
E-Mail : ginf5dia@******.aua.gr
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
EGN# : 22678 U don't know what EGN is? go to http://www.entr.net to find out :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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U'll find the servers in http://www.othernet.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:56:33 -0400

Message no. 14 >I disagree because I see bioware as more the adepts answer to cyberware, it
>lets them get cyberware type abilities without having to lose power points.

I do believe that's wrong...I do believe that in ShadowTech it says
Magicians lose an equal ammount of Essense from bioware equal to the Body
Index of the item. I don't know if it specifically mentions Adepts or not,
but it should. All Awakened lose Magic from bioware. I never made them
actually lose Essense, but did subtract the same amount from the Magic
attribute, as if it were cyberware.

--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:07:55 -0400

Message no. 15 Dimitrios "Cybertroll" Antoniou wrote:
>
> So on with my points... Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
> released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept powers do
> with no essence cost... So what's the point of playing an adept since u can
> have a character with essense 6.0 and powers like he was a Street Samurai or
> an adept?

Because you want to?

There are better reasons to develop a character concept than statistical
advantage. If you DO want to argue powers -- which bioware gives you
astral perception? Or the ability to bond weapon foci?

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley (hoping your "Cybertroll" moniker wasn't meant in the e-mail
sense)
sfeley@***.net

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:10:23 -0400

Message no. 16 Dimitrios "Cybertroll" Antoniou wrote:
> > > So while I'm waiting, would someone mind giving me a quick rundown on
> > > how physads work in SR3? From what I've been hearing, it sounds like
> > > there's a few changes, but I haven't heard any actual details yet.
> >
> > They're still basically the same as in SRII, except you now buy powers
> > using Power points -- and you start with a number of Power points equal
> to
> > your Magic Attribute. So in essence, what they did was change the name
> of
> > the beast and nothing else.
[snip]
> So on with my points... Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
> released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept powers
> do
> with no essence cost... So what's the point of playing an adept since u
> can
> have a character with essense 6.0 and powers like he was a Street Samurai
> or
> an adept? It's even better cause u don't have many problems with magic
> stuff
> etc... I beleive that FASA should give a little more attention to their
> adept
> characters and make them a little bit different... more unique powers that
> differ from Bioware and Cyberware stuff etc...
>
I disagree - nobody has stuff like Traceless Walk or Smashing Blow or
Missile Mastery but adepts. Adepts also get Pain Resistance - the
best implementation of it, hands down (basically, move the damage
modifiers along the track by however many levels you bought!). With
4 levels, you'll never be at +3 again (well, +2 +1, maybe). Improved
senses cost effectively 5 karma (4 with geasa).

Mystic Armour is now useful, as is the Magic Resistance. Adepts are
much improved in SR3.

James Ojaste

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:23:25 -0400

Message no. 17 >Mystic Armour is now useful, as is the Magic Resistance. Adepts are
>much improved in SR3.

I read someone else saying something like that...
Besides the reduced cost (.5 from 1) what is the difference with Mystic
Armor? Did I miss something, didn't both give you 1 point of Impact Armor?

--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:35:11 -0400

Message no. 18 00DNA wrote:
> >Mystic Armour is now useful, as is the Magic Resistance. Adepts are
> >much improved in SR3.
>
> I read someone else saying something like that...
> Besides the reduced cost (.5 from 1) what is the difference with Mystic
> Armor? Did I miss something, didn't both give you 1 point of Impact
> Armor?
>
Halving the cost makes it worth considering. I don't remember the
details about the SR2 version (like whether it worked in the astral),
but I think it was 1 point of impact...

James Ojaste

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:23:28 -0400

Message no. 19 Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET> said:
> Dimitrios "Cybertroll" Antoniou wrote:
> >
> > So on with my points... Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
> > released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept powers do
> > with no essence cost... So what's the point of playing an adept since u can
> > have a character with essense 6.0 and powers like he was a Street Samurai or
> > an adept?
>
> Because you want to?
>
> There are better reasons to develop a character concept than statistical
> advantage. If you DO want to argue powers -- which bioware gives you
> astral perception? Or the ability to bond weapon foci?

Stealth can be important. Adepts generally have no physical mods that can
be detected by technology. They don't have Cyberware, which is commonly
scanned for at airports or other high security places. And they usually
don't have bioware, which can sometimes be detected by external means.
(I think the SuperThyroid increases a person's general metabolic rate,
which can be detected by thermal scanners. And certain reaction and
initiative mods when active make people move more smoothly, enough for
security guards to notice. Adepts with increased reaction & initiative IMHO
don't move smoothly like wired people do.) It takes a mage to detect an
Adept. And if the Adept has Masking, it takes an initiated mage and a die
roll. An adept can walk into places unarmed, and still kick hoop. A
street sam gets noticed.

As an example, an ork street sam tried to act like a messenger boy to
deliver a message to someone in a hotel. He set off the cyberware
detectors in the door (Essence < 1 I think), the guards noticed his
Muscle Augmentation 4 (huge bulging muscles), and the fact that he was
pretty big for an ork (max Strength and Body before wares). If he was
armed, they might have shot him on sight.

An adept wouldn't have had a problem. Granted Adepts usually have high
physical stats, your average street sam doesn't worry about anyone who
has less wares than he does.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-

From:	Christopher Kelly <data_haven@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:30:14 -0700

Message no. 20 00DNA wrote:

<snip snip snippy>

> I do believe that's wrong...I do believe that in ShadowTech it says
> Magicians lose an equal ammount of Essense from bioware equal to the Body
> Index of the item. I don't know if it specifically mentions Adepts or not,
> but it should. All Awakened lose Magic from bioware. I never made them
> actually lose Essense, but did subtract the same amount from the Magic
> attribute, as if it were cyberware.

As for the rules presented in Shadowtech, they kind of contradict themselves. (big
surprise.)
I'll quote the conflicting paragraphs so we all have a reference to debate from.

From Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2)
"As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active (magicians
and adepts),
these characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index when selecting
bioware. (An adept may factor in magically acquired attribute bonuses when
calculating his
or her Body Index.) The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost. In all
cases,
the Body Index is merely an indicatore; no "real" Body is ever actually lost
in aquiring bioware."

Here's the contradictory paragraph:

From Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2)
"Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware, implantation is a very
simple process.
In terms of procedural difficulty, treat any augmentation with a total Body Cost of
.25 or less
as cosmetic surgery (p. 144, Shadowrun). Consider anything between .26 and .75 as
minor
invasive surgery, while a total ranging from .76 to 1.5 indicates major invasive
surgery.
Procedures totaling more than 1.5 Body Cost Points, and/or those involving any neural
bioware,
count as drastic inc\vasive surgery. Magicians and adepts who undergo drastic
invasive surgery
must check for Magic Attribute loss after healing. Although most individuals do not
lose
Essence as a result of bioware implantation, they may still lose Essence is the
surgery goes
awry."

The way that this last paragraph is worded, leads me to believe that a magically active
host only
need test for magic loss if they undergo drastic invasive surgery. Is that right???

Just thought I'd throw up some actual refrence material. ( =

What my group used to do as a strictly house / optional rule for bioware was this:
For magicians and adepts, if they went to the expense of paying for CULTURED bioware,
then the implant did not affect the recipients magic rating. The logic being (and
it's probably debateable whether it's logical or not) was that since the bioware was
cultured from their own cells and DNA, the body wouldn't have any problems accepting
the foreign material because it had been fooled into thinking that it was supposed to
be there. (I know this directly contradicts what the book said about cultured bioware, so
don't get all miffed. We just created the rule so that the Sammies in the group weren't
the
only ones getting to bust all the heads.)

Thanks.

Data Haven

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:42:09 -0400

Message no. 21 You might want to wrap your lines around 70 characters, that's the
"accepted" way on the list to avoid complaints.

Christopher Kelly <data_haven@*********.COM> said:
> ...
> As for the rules presented in Shadowtech, they kind of contradict themselves. (big
surprise.)
> I'll quote the conflicting paragraphs so we all have a reference to debate from.
>
> >From Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2)
> "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active
(magicians and adepts),
> these characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index when
selecting
> bioware. (An adept may factor in magically acquired attribute bonuses when
calculating his
> or her Body Index.) The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost. In
all cases,
> the Body Index is merely an indicatore; no "real" Body is ever actually
lost in aquiring bioware."

This seems pretty clear to me. Bioware costs Body Index AND Essence.

> Here's the contradictory paragraph:
>
> >From Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2)
> "Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware, implantation is a
very simple process.
> In terms of procedural difficulty, treat any augmentation with a total Body Cost
of .25 or less
> as cosmetic surgery (p. 144, Shadowrun). Consider anything between .26 and .75
as minor
> invasive surgery, while a total ranging from .76 to 1.5 indicates major invasive
surgery.
> Procedures totaling more than 1.5 Body Cost Points, and/or those involving any
neural bioware,
> count as drastic inc\vasive surgery. Magicians and adepts who undergo drastic
invasive surgery
> must check for Magic Attribute loss after healing. Although most individuals do
not lose
> Essence as a result of bioware implantation, they may still lose Essence is the
surgery goes
> awry."

This isn't a contrdiction. This just states that magically active people
can lose ADDITIONAL Magic Rating just from the surgery. A magically active
person getting Muscle Augmentation 4 gets 3.2 Body Index and loses 3.2
Essence. That generally means they lose 4 Magic Rating. But it is also
a drastic invasive procedure, so they may lose another point from the
"system shock" of the surgery itself. That's the way I play it, and I
believe the way most people on the list interpret the rules.

--
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From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:42:09 -0400

Message no. 22 >As for the rules presented in Shadowtech, they kind of contradict
themselves. (big surprise.)
>I'll quote the conflicting paragraphs so we all have a reference to debate
from.
>
>From Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2)
> "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active
(magicians and adepts),
> these characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index
when selecting
> bioware. (An adept may factor in magically acquired attribute bonuses
when calculating his
> or her Body Index.) The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body
Cost. In all cases,
> the Body Index is merely an indicatore; no "real" Body is ever
actually lost in aquiring bioware."
>
>Here's the contradictory paragraph:
>
>From Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2)
> "Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware, implantation
is a very simple process.
> In terms of procedural difficulty, treat any augmentation with a total
Body Cost of .25 or less
> as cosmetic surgery (p. 144, Shadowrun). Consider anything between
.26 and .75 as minor
> invasive surgery, while a total ranging from .76 to 1.5 indicates
major invasive surgery.
> Procedures totaling more than 1.5 Body Cost Points, and/or those
involving any neural bioware,
> count as drastic inc\vasive surgery. Magicians and adepts who undergo
drastic invasive surgery
> must check for Magic Attribute loss after healing. Although most
individuals do not lose
> Essence as a result of bioware implantation, they may still lose
Essence is the surgery goes
> awry."
>
>The way that this last paragraph is worded, leads me to believe that a
magically active host only
>need test for magic loss if they undergo drastic invasive surgery. Is
that right???

I don't think so. It's saying:
First Paragraph: You Lose Essense. And since Magic = Essense, you lose
Magic.
Second Paragraph is talking about the surgery and not the gear. It says:
"...as a result of bioware implantation" It does not say "as a result of
bioware".
Two different things. You lose magic when you lose Essense. Rule 1.
You Might lose magic during surgery. Rule 2.

I don't see these as contradicting at all, though I can see how it can
easily lead to confusion.

--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

From:	Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:56:45 PDT

Message no. 23 > Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
>released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept
>powers do
>with no essence cost

Whoa! Increase Body Index, which effects much the same as essence
(Magical Healing, decrease magic, etc.)

>... So what's the point of playing an adept

Fun! Those guys can do things no one else can do, see things no one else
can see. Shadowtech only touched on athletics, IIRC. Only touched it.

>more unique powers that
>differ from Bioware and Cyberware stuff etc...

Plenty thereof, chummerino. Got walking without a sound over dry leaves
and twigs, Blind fighting, flexibility, freefall, the list goes on
(Awakenings, p.156)

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From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:11:53 -0400

Message no. 24 Tomus Cone didst sayeth:

>> Adepts imo became obsolete when Shadowtech was
>>released by FASA... Most of the Bioware stuff do exactly what adept
>>powers do
>>with no essence cost
>
>Whoa! Increase Body Index, which effects much the same as essence
>(Magical Healing, decrease magic, etc.)

That's ony half BI...nowhere near the penalty :)

>>... So what's the point of playing an adept
>
>Fun! Those guys can do things no one else can do, see things no one else
>can see. Shadowtech only touched on athletics, IIRC. Only touched it.

Social acceptance? Mystic armor doesn't leave you with skin that feels like
leather...enhanced firearms doesn't require a chunk of plastic in the palm
of your hand that everyone who shakes it is going to notice.

>>more unique powers that
>>differ from Bioware and Cyberware stuff etc...
>
>Plenty thereof, chummerino. Got walking without a sound over dry leaves
>and twigs, Blind fighting, flexibility, freefall, the list goes on
>(Awakenings, p.156)

If you're running someplace like Denver, Detroit, or Chicago where it snows
a lot, traceless walk is probably the single most useful thing a Physad can
do...

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:32:59 -0500

Message no. 25 ----------
> From: Christopher Kelly <data_haven@*********.COM>
> What my group used to do as a strictly house / optional rule for bioware
was this:
> For magicians and adepts, if they went to the expense of paying for
CULTURED bioware,
> then the implant did not affect the recipients magic rating.

Actually, we did this as well. Its interesting to note that many of the
toys the mages are going to want are neural bioware (like reaction
enhancers and cerebral boosters), which is cultured automatically and has
that factored in.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:52:35 -0500

Message no. 26 ----------
> From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
> >>... So what's the point of playing an adept
> >
> >Fun! Those guys can do things no one else can do, see things no one
else
> >can see. Shadowtech only touched on athletics, IIRC. Only touched it.
>
> Social acceptance? Mystic armor doesn't leave you with skin that feels
like
> leather...enhanced firearms doesn't require a chunk of plastic in the
palm
> of your hand that everyone who shakes it is going to notice.

Enhanced stealth doesn't require replacing your skin with dermal sheathing
filled with R-polys, killing hands doesn't make large pieces of steel jut
from the back of your hand, an adept with thermovision, lowlight, and
optical magnification 3 can look someone in the eye without making them
shudder, rapid healing doesn't make you eat twice as much as a normal
human, improved physical attributes doesn't mean your muscles now look
vaguely synthetic...

> >Plenty thereof, chummerino. Got walking without a sound over dry leaves
> >and twigs, Blind fighting, flexibility, freefall, the list goes on
> >(Awakenings, p.156)
>
> If you're running someplace like Denver, Detroit, or Chicago where it
snows
> a lot, traceless walk is probably the single most useful thing a Physad
can
> do...

Not to mention the fact that you actually levitate a little above the
surface, likely spreading out your weight a bit and reducing the chance
that stray dust will fall down and alert the guards...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter

From:	Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:54:02 PDT

Message no. 27 You'll be lucky mate, I tried that and it took at least 7 posts to
get what i want. I'm in Canberra and i'm getting it next week, Go order
it through milSimms your retailer will undoubtedly have a catalogue
MrHAppYTHeSMileyMAN

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From:	Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:25:48 EDT

Message no. 28 In a message dated 9/4/98 5:59:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU writes:

> I disagree because I see bioware as more the adepts answer to cyberware, it
> lets them get cyberware type abilities without having to lose power points.
>

Where did you get that idea? If you put bioware into your meat bod you lose
essence which in turn means you lose magic.

I'm pretty sure we have been over this before.

Otter

From:	Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:35:59 EDT

Message no. 29 On or about Friday, September 4th, Cybertroll wrote:

>Yeap it costs essence just like the mages...
>That's why I said that adepts lost their touch since the Bioware stuff came
out...
>

If we were playing SR2 I would agree with you. It was cheaper to get a
Synaptic Accelerator II (especially if you could get it cultured), and then
get Enhanced Articulation (+1 Reaction and bonuses on some Active Skills) then
it is to get Increased Reflexes +2 which was 4 points.

But under SR3 the Adepts are cool again. Increased Reflexes +2 is 3 points and
gives +2dice initiative and +4 Reaction. Just like Wired 3.

Granted a Sam can get Delta Wired 2 (like any of my characters will ever see
that) but the Adept can keep getting Power Points. The Sam is never going to
get more Essence for new cyberware.

Looks to me like Adepts and Sams are pretty even again.

Otter

From:	Jane Foster <immortal_elf@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:57:17 PDT

Message no. 30 >Where did you get that idea? If you put bioware into your meat bod you
lose
>essence which in turn means you lose magic.
>

Actually, page 6 of the Shadowtech book says:
"Magicians and Adepts who undergo drastic invasive surgery must check
for magic attribute loss after surgery. Although individuals do not
lose Essence as a result of Bioware implantation, they may still lose
essence if the surhery goes awry".

This means you can have bioware in a magically active character, as long
as the character has some good dice rolls. In my games, I usually say
that if the character gets bioware at generation, you need to make no
rolls, but all bets are off when the game starts.

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From:	Dom T-J <phobic@**.NET.AU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 05:08:01 +1000

Message no. 31 At 11:57 5/09/98 PDT, you wrote:
>
>Actually, page 6 of the Shadowtech book says:
> "Magicians and Adepts who undergo drastic invasive surgery must check
>for magic attribute loss after surgery. Although individuals do not
>lose Essence as a result of Bioware implantation, they may still lose
>essence if the surhery goes awry".
>
>This means you can have bioware in a magically active character, as long
>as the character has some good dice rolls. In my games, I usually say
>that if the character gets bioware at generation, you need to make no
>rolls, but all bets are off when the game starts.

Yeah, it does say that... but in the same book it SPECIFICALLY states that
bioware causes magic loss. The passage you quote just means they can lose
*more* if their surgeon frags it up...
Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."

From:	Rick Riessen <chrome@********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:24:13 -0400

Message no. 32 >This means you can have bioware in a magically active character, as long
>as the character has some good dice rolls. In my games, I usually say
>that if the character gets bioware at generation, you need to make no
>rolls, but all bets are off when the game starts.
>

To quote Shadowtech... "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the
magically active (magicians and adepts), these characters must spend Essence
and add to their Body Index when selecting Bodyware. (An adept may factor
in magically acquired attribute bonuses when calculating his or her Body
Index.) The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost. In all
cases, the Body Index is merely an indicator; no 'real' Body is ever
actually lost in acquiring bioware."

So, yes, you lose essence. 8( But you also get to factor in any magically
augmentations for body. 8) The rolls you make only determine if the surgery
was successful without any further damage or loss.

CT

From:	Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:30:11 PDT

Message no. 33 >From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
>Subject: Re: [SR3] Adepts.

I agree with everything but....
>But under SR3 the Adepts are cool again. Increased Reflexes +2 is 3
points and
>gives +2dice initiative and +4 Reaction. Just like Wired 3.
>
arnt they the stats for wired 2? was it a misprunt or have they changed
it in SR3?
Confused and dazed
MrHAPPYtheSMileyMAN

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:55:04 +0200

Message no. 34 Wilbur The new adept said on 21:30/5 Sep 98,...

> >But under SR3 the Adepts are cool again. Increased Reflexes +2 is 3
> points and
> >gives +2dice initiative and +4 Reaction. Just like Wired 3.
> >
> arnt they the stats for wired 2? was it a misprunt or have they changed
> it in SR3?

It's a typo in the message you quoted (you do know the 3 is next to the 2,
right? :) Basically, the Improved Reflexes power does the same as wired
reflexes cyberware of the same level, and costs the same. Which is a BIG
improvement over SRII, where it was _way_ cheaper to get wired refs than
do the same thing by magic...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 02:00:56 PDT

Message no. 35 In a less related point can adepts stack with Wired? i know you have
to specially design a + reflexes to affect them, i was wondering whether
it was possible to stack say a geased reflexes 1 with a delta wired 3
(for example)
curious as ever
MRhaPPYTHeSMileYMAn

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur

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From:	Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:21:42 -0400

Message no. 36 MrHappy--

> In a less related point can adepts stack with Wired? i know you have=

>to specially design a + reflexes to affect them, i was wondering whether=

>it was possible to stack say a geased reflexes 1 with a delta wired 3
>(for example)

The maximum bonus to initiative is +3d6, meaning that with Wired =
3,
you're rolling 4d6 and adding your Reaction. The *only* exception to this=

is Move-by-Wire, where the highest level, in addition to frying your
nervous system, gives you a bonus of +4d6, so you can roll 5d6 and add
Reaction.
This is a hard limit. Other than a character with Move-by-Wire, n=
o
PC will ever roll more than 4d6 for initiative.
IIRC, the *suggested* rule to follow is that only the highest boo=
st
takes effect.
The alternative rule is to allow any combination of boosts, as lo=
ng
as the total boost is +3d6 or less.

Shadowmage

From:	Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:47:24 PDT

Message no. 37 Are those rules like from a rule book or just hous. there good an
all but a ref would b handy.
HappytheSmileMAn

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur

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From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:07:26 +1000

Message no. 38 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Tarek Okail
> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 8:22 PM
>
>
> > In a less related point can adepts stack with Wired? i
> know you have
> >to specially design a + reflexes to affect them, i was
> wondering whether
> >it was possible to stack say a geased reflexes 1 with a
> delta wired 3
> >(for example)
>
> The maximum bonus to initiative is +3d6, meaning
> that with Wired 3,

I suggested to Steve Kenson that mayhaps 3rd Edition should list wired
reflexes and that sort of stuff as giving you 4d6 initiative rather
than +3d6. That way each thing sets you at a given number of dice
over-riding whatever else you have, rather than adding together as the
+?d6 sort of insinuates. Apparently it didn't make it in though :(

NightRain.

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: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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From:	Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 08:02:09 PDT

Message no. 39 >This is a hard limit. Other than a character with Move-by-Wire, no
>PC will ever roll more than 4d6 for initiative.
>IIRC, the *suggested* rule to follow is that only the highest boost
>takes effect.
>The alternative rule is to allow any combination of boosts, as long
>as the total boost is +3d6 or less.
>
>Shadowmage

I was wondering where this hard fast rule is found. It makes sense, but
it is also contradicted in cybertechnology. In that book they talk about
move by wire being combined with level one synaptic accelerators, +5d6.
I don't think there are any real limits to the dice except for what the
rules currently state. If a sammy has the technology to move insanely
fast, let him. Speed is the ultimate advantage.

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From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:09:02 EDT

Message no. 40 In a message dated 9/6/98 6:48:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mad_bomb@*******.COM writes:

> Are those rules like from a rule book or just hous. there good an
> all but a ref would b handy.

I believe Shadowrun Thrird Edition specfically states that an adept's
inititive reflex ability can not be combined with other reflex mods,
technological or magical.

Bosted Reflexes also states that it is not compadible with Wired in the
discription, and the Increase Reaction (Reflexes) Spell states that it is not
compadilble with other reflex mods.

SR3 clears a lot of this up, but it would be nice if they had one section that
stated that rule!

-Bandit

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:20:40 -0700

Message no. 41 >Basically, the Improved Reflexes power does the same as wired
>reflexes cyberware of the same level, and costs the same. Which is a BIG
>improvement over SRII, where it was _way_ cheaper to get wired refs than
>do the same thing by magic...

Yeah, now its _way_ cheaper to get improved reflexes 3 than wired 3-
priority b Vs a, no essence loss, and you are magically active with the
possiblity for future advancement (through buying power points) to boot.
And you can still get cyber- you only have to keep your magic rating at 3,
as long as you have the power points...
The numbers look the same, but the costs are not.

Mongoose

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:22:39 -0500

Message no. 42 ----------
> From: Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
>
> Are those rules like from a rule book or just hous. there good an
> all but a ref would b handy.
> HappytheSmileMAn

First off, quote what you're talking about. I don't read minds, and
certainly can't at whatever distance you are from me, or whatever passes
for your mind.

If you're referring to what I posted last night about various ways for an
adept to hide from astral detection, those are all house rules...
suggestions that might work.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:39:48 +0100

Message no. 43 And verily, did Christopher Kelly hastily scribble thusly...
|
|00DNA wrote:
|
|<snip snip snippy>
|
|> I do believe that's wrong...I do believe that in ShadowTech it says
|> Magicians lose an equal ammount of Essense from bioware equal to the Body
|> Index of the item. I don't know if it specifically mentions Adepts or not,
|> but it should. All Awakened lose Magic from bioware. I never made them
|> actually lose Essense, but did subtract the same amount from the Magic
|> attribute, as if it were cyberware.
|
|As for the rules presented in Shadowtech, they kind of contradict themselves. (big
surprise.)
|I'll quote the conflicting paragraphs so we all have a reference to debate from.
|
|>From Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2)
| "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active (magicians
and adepts),
| these characters must spend Essence and add to their Body Index when selecting
| bioware. (An adept may factor in magically acquired attribute bonuses when
calculating his
| or her Body Index.) The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost. In all
cases,
| the Body Index is merely an indicatore; no "real" Body is ever actually
lost in aquiring bioware."
|
|Here's the contradictory paragraph:
|
|>From Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2)
| "Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware, implantation is a very
simple process.
| In terms of procedural difficulty, treat any augmentation with a total Body Cost of
.25 or less
| as cosmetic surgery (p. 144, Shadowrun). Consider anything between .26 and .75 as
minor
| invasive surgery, while a total ranging from .76 to 1.5 indicates major invasive
surgery.
| Procedures totaling more than 1.5 Body Cost Points, and/or those involving any neural
bioware,
| count as drastic inc\vasive surgery. Magicians and adepts who undergo drastic
invasive surgery
| must check for Magic Attribute loss after healing. Although most individuals do not
lose
| Essence as a result of bioware implantation, they may still lose Essence is the
surgery goes
| awry."

Where's the contradiction? It says *most* individuals. The magically active
are a VERY small minority, and don't fall into that bracket.
What thast paragraph says is simply that ALL characters run the risk of
losing extra essence due to a surgery botch, and magic users have a chance
of losing a magic point. This paragraph is about the actual implantation
procedure for *ALL* characters. THe magic characters are mentioned in more
detail in the first paragraph.

P.S. Please set your formatting. Currently, you're posting with a right
margin of at least 100. The acceptable limit is 80, and the recommended
limit is 75 to take ihto account quote marks.

Please fix it. It really is a pain in the arse to read.

|The way that this last paragraph is worded, leads me to believe that a magically active
host only
|need test for magic loss if they undergo drastic invasive surgery. Is that right???

Yes. Just as any other time a magically active person takes a deadly wound
in a single blow, or certain chamicals like Stim Patch, they have to test
for magic loss. Invasive surgery automatically counts as a deadly wound in
these cases, but it's not normally dangerous because it's under controlled
conditions.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:12:49 +0100

Message no. 44 And verily, did Wilbur The new adept hastily scribble thusly...
|
| You'll be lucky mate, I tried that and it took at least 7 posts to
|get what i want. I'm in Canberra and i'm getting it next week, Go order
|it through milSimms your retailer will undoubtedly have a catalogue
| MrHAppYTHeSMileyMAN

Still not paying attention I see.
It has been said by others, and I'll say it again.

QUOTE FROM THE ORIGINAL POST!
(Or no-one will have any IDEA what you're on about.)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:36:00 +0100

Message no. 45 And verily, did Jane Foster hastily scribble thusly...
|Actually, page 6 of the Shadowtech book says:
| "Magicians and Adepts who undergo drastic invasive surgery must check
|for magic attribute loss after surgery. Although individuals do not
|lose Essence as a result of Bioware implantation, they may still lose
|essence if the surhery goes awry".
|
|This means you can have bioware in a magically active character, as long
|as the character has some good dice rolls. In my games, I usually say
|that if the character gets bioware at generation, you need to make no
|rolls, but all bets are off when the game starts.

You looked in the wrong place. There's a section that specifically states
that mages lose essence equal to the body index due to their closer links
with their auras.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:25:05 EDT

Message no. 46 In a message dated 9/6/1998 1:15:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> >Basically, the Improved Reflexes power does the same as wired
> >reflexes cyberware of the same level, and costs the same. Which is a BIG
> >improvement over SRII, where it was _way_ cheaper to get wired refs than
> >do the same thing by magic...
>
> Yeah, now its _way_ cheaper to get improved reflexes 3 than wired 3-
> priority b Vs a, no essence loss, and you are magically active with the
> possiblity for future advancement (through buying power points) to boot.
> And you can still get cyber- you only have to keep your magic rating at 3,
> as long as you have the power points...
> The numbers look the same, but the costs are not.

After rereading the SR3 material I now have at my disposal, I would say that I
disagree with you. Improved Reflexes (Adept ability) are equal price to that
of Wired Reflexes for the street samurai. And a Street Samurai has the option
of potentially upgrading his/her wired reflexes at a later date with the
options of graded cybernetics. As far as I can tell, an Adept does not have
this option. I do understand that with the option of Power Points using
Karma, that yes, an Adept can gain more abilities at a rate that could
potentially be exceding that of a Street Samurai. But that involves Karma,
which as the Shadowrun game material indicates should be at least as difficult
to come by as the large amounts of nuyen required for cybernetic augmentation.

They do even out in the end, at least in my opinion as it's been formed so
far. If a particular game is more nuyen heavy than it is karma heavy, then it
should seem feasible for the Street Samurai to gain more advantages than an
Adept. If the reverse of this is true, then the Adept will most certainly
outdistance the flexbility of the Street Samurai.

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:54:03 -0700

Message no. 47 :> >Basically, the Improved Reflexes power does the same as wired
:> >reflexes cyberware of the same level, and costs the same. Which is a
BIG
:> >improvement over SRII, where it was _way_ cheaper to get wired refs
than
:> >do the same thing by magic...
:>
:> Yeah, now its _way_ cheaper to get improved reflexes 3 than wired
3-
:> priority b Vs a, no essence loss, and you are magically active with
the
:> possiblity for future advancement (through buying power points) to
boot.
:> And you can still get cyber- you only have to keep your magic rating
at 3,
:> as long as you have the power points...
:> The numbers look the same, but the costs are not.
:
:After rereading the SR3 material I now have at my disposal, I would say
that I
:disagree with you. Improved Reflexes (Adept ability) are equal price to
that
:of Wired Reflexes for the street samurai. And a Street Samurai has the
option
:of potentially upgrading his/her wired reflexes at a later date with the
:options of graded cybernetics. As far as I can tell, an Adept does not
have
:this option.

The are clearly diffrent in price; one is cash and essence, one is
power points only. Whether those costs "balance" or not, they are
DIFFERENT costs, not "equal prices".

I'm also pretty sure you can spend power points to increase a powers
level.

Upgrading cyber grades requires a complete repalcement and (if you go
by the rules availible) very expensive (as in unobtainabley so) surgery.
That could change in MAMS, but as of now, BTB upgrades are BITCH.

My comment specifically pertained to wires 3 VS Increased reflexes 3-
the physad power is easier to get, and hence "cheaper".

:They do even out in the end, at least in my opinion as it's been formed
so
:far. If a particular game is more nuyen heavy than it is karma heavy,
then it
:should seem feasible for the Street Samurai to gain more advantages than
an
:Adept. If the reverse of this is true, then the Adept will most
certainly
:outdistance the flexbility of the Street Samurai.

I didn't say the two character types don't balance better now; in
fact, I think the more common choices, wired 1+2 Vs reflex 1+2, are almost
perfectly balanced. The costs are DIFFERENT. Both have advantages, both
have disadvantages.
However, going just by the rules in SR3, making a starting samurai
with "Increased reflexes 3" Vs an adept with "Wired 3" seems to leave
the
adept more options, which is what I meant when I said its "way cheaper.
IMO, the downside of wire 3 are a bit high compared to improved reflex 3,
which tips the scale pretty firmly towards their being "better".

Quick comparison:
Human adept
A)skills 60 or attributes 30 or 1 million
B)adept W/ improved reflex 3 +1 PP (or 1 e cyber)
C)Skills 34 or attributes 24 or 90,000 yen
D)Skills 30, attributes 21 or 20,00 yen

Human samurai
A)wired reflexes 3 plus 500,000 new yen
(or wired 2 and 6 reaction enhances- a little better Imo, and a bit
cheaper
B)Skills 40 or attribute 27
C)Skills 34 or attributes 24

To start, for the same ability, the samurai is down essence- 5 in the
case of wired 3 (much harder to heal magically). He also has serious
social penalties (at least +2 to most social tests for having wired 3)
that the adept need never suffer for being equally fast. That's a cost
not factored in when you say "Improved Reflexes (Adept ability) are equal
price to that
of Wired Reflexes". The adept does not pay those prices.
As far as "numeric" costs go, the adept can choose D for cash (does he
need much more?) and be down 480,000, but with better attributes or skills
(and the other equal). Or he can have much more free cash and nearly as
good attributes and skills (one category lower in each).
That seems "_way_ cheaper" to me. <shrug>

I'm not saying that's BAD; they may balance quite well in play, and
magic abilities should in may cases be superior to their tech equivalents.
Tech has its own strong areas, like decking and rigging, as well as things
like skillwires that magic can't duplicate.
It just pisses me off when folks say "the costs are equal", ignoring
the magic healing and social penalties of essence loss that WILL matter in
game play.

Of course, in actual play of SR3 it seems possible that NIETHER speed
level would be much worth the price; speed is not the all-important combat
edge it was.

Mongoose

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:58:34 -0500

Message no. 48 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:54:03 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> My comment specifically pertained to wires 3 VS Increased reflexes
3-
>the physad power is easier to get, and hence "cheaper".
<SNIP>
>Mongoose

Just a note: wired 3 cost 500k so if a char buys nothing else, s/he can
get wired 3 at 4 essence points (5*.8=4) by spending double for alpha
grade version ...

IOW, it is still possible for a physad to pick up the cyber version
"cheaper" than the magic version (since being a physad is "B" pick,
s/he
still has the "A" open for money ...)

I'm not dis/agreeing with you, just pointing that out. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:18:15 -0400

Message no. 49 On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Tarek Okail wrote:

->MrHappy--
->
->> In a less related point can adepts stack with Wired? i know you have
->>to specially design a + reflexes to affect them, i was wondering whether
->>it was possible to stack say a geased reflexes 1 with a delta wired 3
->>(for example)
->
<fwompy snip>
-> IIRC, the *suggested* rule to follow is that only the highest boost
->takes effect.
-> The alternative rule is to allow any combination of boosts, as long
->as the total boost is +3d6 or less.

The EvilGM (tm) rule is to only allow the lowest Reflex increase
to take effect, explained by using the "weakest link in a chain" theory.
Helps cut down on munchkinism.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Adepts.
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:12:12 -0400

Message no. 50 >|The way that this last paragraph is worded, leads me to believe that a
magically active host only
>|need test for magic loss if they undergo drastic invasive surgery. Is
that right???
>

>Yes. Just as any other time a magically active person takes a deadly wound
>in a single blow, or certain chamicals like Stim Patch, they have to test
>for magic loss. Invasive surgery automatically counts as a deadly wound in
>these cases, but it's not normally dangerous because it's under controlled
>conditions.

Not to lead to more confusion, and this has been said numerous times
now...but...

Yes, the only time a magically active person has to TEST for magic loss is
if they undergo drastic invasive surgery for the bioware.
But NO!!!! That is not the only time they lose magic.
Bioware reduces essense reduces magic. (that's a big period btw)
(Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2))

THEN...they can lose ADDITIONAL magic if they make a bad roll during surgery.
(Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2))

--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

Message no. 51 And verily, did 00DNA hastily scribble thusly...
|Yes, the only time a magically active person has to TEST for magic loss is
|if they undergo drastic invasive surgery for the bioware.
|But NO!!!! That is not the only time they lose magic.
|Bioware reduces essense reduces magic. (that's a big period btw)
|(Shadowtech (p. 5, column 2, paragraph 2))
|
|THEN...they can lose ADDITIONAL magic if they make a bad roll during surgery.
|(Shadowtech (p. 6, column 1, paragraph 2))

*SIGH*
But I already SAID THAT! NUMEROUS TIMES!
I was just pointing out that the procedure itself as well as the bioware can
cause problems.

*Deep sigh*
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 52 It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
opinion.
Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know the
stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't believe there
are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or "it is
that"
without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Message no. 53 At 10:40 AM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
> It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
>opinion.
> Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know the
>stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
>news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't believe there
>are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or "it is
that"
>without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.

Wired Reflexes are bad because they say its bad in Cybertechnology. The
basis is that the body is being jacked up higher than it should be, so you
sometimes have trouble controlling your reactions. Your brain can't keep
up. This is cannon.

IMHO, Improved Reflexes wouldn't cause this becuase they are magical, and
therefore "natural." Canon says that Increased Physical Attributes are
considered natural for purposes of raising through Karma. Again IMHO, I
have this equate to Increased Reflexes and call it natural. Therefore, the
adept is used to moving that fast and does not suffer those penalties.

Sommers
Home page to eventually be installed in this location.
Actual date is Real Soon Now (tm)!

Message no. 54 At 10:40 AM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
> It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
>opinion.
> Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know the
>stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
>news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't believe there
>are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or "it is
that"
>without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.

IMO:

The way I see it. All of the Physad's abilities are a form of union
between mind/spirit and body. Only through strict disciplinary training
cany a physad achieve higher abilities than that of the average mundane.

Therefore, I see the physad's 'reflex trigger' is that he has to make a
conscious effort to use his abilities (unless the ability specifically says
that he doesn't).

Not to mention, the physad's abilities are natural (to the physad) and
therefore I generally consider this to mean that he retains tight control.
With the cybered/bioware versions of this ability, you just wake up one day
(following the implant proceedure) and are suddenly much faster.

A physad trains to become faster, therefore is much better adjusted.

I'm interested in hearing other opinions about this too, though.

noysh the spoonë bard [BABY 909]
shaung@**********.net
>jack of all trades, master of none.

Message no. 55 >*SIGH*
>But I already SAID THAT! NUMEROUS TIMES!
>I was just pointing out that the procedure itself as well as the bioware can
>cause problems.
>
>*Deep sigh*

Yes, sorry Spike, but your answer of "Yes" was correct in saying it was for
the test of bioware loss during surgery and not the loss of magic for the
bioware...but...the person who was asking that had already stated that he
thought that the Test for magic loss (and saying it doesn't happen many
times) overrules that magic is loss for the bioware. Simply I was just
trying to clear it up as so many of us have attempted to do...

--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>

Message no. 56 Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know the
>stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
>news or more controlled?

My opinion is that there wouldn't be the same kind of problem. Cyberware
is grafted into the body... basically Wired is artificially forcing your
neural structure to react at speeds Nature didn't design it for. With the
kind of magical enhancement that PhysAds have, however, I'd be inclined to
say that the body would BE designed for it... PhysAds, generally speaking,
don't choose their own powers. It's simply their natural magical ability
finding a favourable way to express itself.
Regards,

Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."

Message no. 57 > It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
>opinion. Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we >know
the stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved >Reflexes? Same
bad news or more controlled? I would like opinions, >as I don't believe
there are any canon details on it yet. No one >say "it is this" or "it
is that" without a canon reference, please. >Thanks in advance.
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

Well, i know you wanted page numbers so i am appologizing in advance. I
think that the adepts increased reflexs wouldn't have as pronounced an
effect as the wired version. It would be noticible but not as
irratating. Say half mods for the adept when it came to social
interaction and reactions. The adpets abilities are not as radical or
external a modiifcation as Cyberware is. It is an expression of the
adepts innate control of somatic magic.

There is no reflex trigger for adepts as such. But you could use gesa
linked directly to the power. The Increased reflexes doesn't work unless
the adpet does a daily katta for 30min or such. Not as convient as the
mechanical variety, but has no essence cost either.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Message no. 58 This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept uses the
Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic Vision Enhancement, us it
considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing which modifiers to
use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything one way or
another.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Foster [mailto:fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 10:40 AM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: [SR3] Adepts.
>
>
> It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
> opinion.
> Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news,
> we know the
> stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
> news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't
> believe there
> are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or
> "it is that"
> without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.
>
> Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
> the difficult I do all day long,
> the impossible only during the week,
> and miracles performed on an as-needed
> basis....
>
> Now tell me, what was your problem?
>

Message no. 59 And verily, did Steve Menard hastily scribble thusly...
|
|This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept uses the
|Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic Vision Enhancement, us it
|considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing which modifiers to
|use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything one way or
|another.

Magical means natural as far as I'm concerned.
P.S.
TRIM YOUR POSTS! Or at least quote BELOW the original.
nd always snip sigs.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 60 >This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept
>>uses the Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic
>Vision Enhancement, us it
>considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing
>which modifiers to
>use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything
>one way or another.
I would treat it as natural. Also, I have always played that
adepts could turn their reflexes on/off. To me its like the reflex
trigger, what samurai would have Wired placed in his
body without it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633

Message no. 61 ----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>
> Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know
the
> stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
> news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't believe
there
> are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or "it is
that"
> without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.

IMO, its more controlled. There are still problems, of course, but I
think adepts have a fraction more control than others. Also, they tend to
have higher willpowers, which might help a bit.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

Message no. 62 ----------
> From: Steve Menard <SMenard@****.COM>
>
> This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept uses the
> Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic Vision Enhancement, us
it
> considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing which
modifiers to
> use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything one way
or
> another.

IMO, all powers that an adept has are natural. I think that some adepts
choose their specific powers (especially after initiation), but for all
the magic is a natural extension of his body... in fact, that is a good
way of thinking of it. In all cases, magical increases from an adept use
the natural category because the adept's magic is a natural ability.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

Message no. 63 David Foster said on 10:40/8 Sep 98,...

> It's not covered in the books, but I'm sure everyone has an
> opinion.
> Wired Reflexes without a Reflex Trigger are bad news, we know the
> stories. What about Physical Adepts with Improved Reflexes? Same bad
> news or more controlled? I would like opinions, as I don't believe there
> are any canon details on it yet. No one say "it is this" or "it is
that"
> without a canon reference, please. Thanks in advance.

I've always taken physad powers to be more natural than cyberware, so a
physad with extra initiative dice won't jump all over the place killing
and maiming everyone withing reach when surprised, whereas a street sam
might just do that before realizing what really happened.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 64 On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:09:42 -0400 Steve Menard <SMenard@****.COM> writes:
>This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept uses the
>Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic Vision Enhancement, us
it
>considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing which
modifiers to
>use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything one way
or
>another.
<SNIP>

First, reply AFTER the message you are replying to (Like I am doing now)
not before (Like you did), please. It makes it easier for everyone to
follow the thread. Thanks.

As for your question: "Natural low-light or thermographic vision, such
as the vision elves and dwarfs are born with, or the enhanced senses
available to a physical adept or critter, is magical in nature." (Page 80
of Fields of Fire)

That help? :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 65 > The maximum bonus to initiative is +3d6, meaning that with Wired 3,
>you're rolling 4d6 and adding your Reaction. The *only* exception to this
>is Move-by-Wire, where the highest level, in addition to frying your
>nervous system, gives you a bonus of +4d6, so you can roll 5d6 and add
>Reaction.

Incorrect. You can, at the time of Move-by-Wire implantation, elect to
implant level 1 synaptic accelerator at the same time, thus getting 4d6
from MBW-4 and 1d6 from SynAc-1 for a total of 6d6. This can only be done
if SynAc and MBW are integrated and implanted at the same time.

I have not seen a hard and fast rule in either SR2 or SR3 limiting the
number of initiative dice. I'm interested to know if there is one in SR3 ...

>Shadowmage

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 66 I wrote rules for how I handle this on my page:
http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/rules.htm

Message no. 67 Michael vanHulst wrote:
/
/ I wrote rules for how I handle this on my page:
/ http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/rules.htm

How to handle what? :)

Michael, please include enough of the post you're replying to so that
your response makes sense.

Have fun,
Play nice,
-David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)
--
dbuehrer@******.carl.org, ShadowRN GridSec: Nice Guy Division
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srnintro.html
Other GridSec members: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Dvixen <dvixen@********.com>
Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.net>
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List Owner: Mark Imbracio <mark.imbracio@*****.com>

Message no. 68 In a message dated 9/8/98 7:07:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> I wrote rules for how I handle this on my page:
> / http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/rules.htm
>
> How to handle what? :)
>
> Michael, please include enough of the post you're replying to so that
> your response makes sense.
The rules for "jumping the gun" with initiative boosts.
Sorry about the cut, got distracted and hit send.

Message no. 69 <Gurth>
I've always taken physad powers to be more natural than cyberware, so a
physad with extra initiative dice won't jump all over the place killing
and maiming everyone withing reach when surprised, whereas a street sam
might just do that before realizing what really happened.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yet another reason the costs of the two systems are NOT equal, even
though in SR3 some of the numbers are.

Mongoose

Message no. 70 On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:09:42 -0400, Steve Menard wrote:

>This does bring up anither question we've had. When the Adept uses the
>Low-Light Vision enhancement or the Thermographic Vision Enhancement, us it
>considered natural or cybered for the purpose of choosing which modifiers to
>use? There is nothing, as far as I can see, that says anything one way or
>another.

Natural. Much as a troll's vision is natural.

Message no. 71 :Where do you get the idea that SR2 Physads were limited in their
potential to gain power? As long as they dumped karma into it, they could
continue Initiating as long as they wanted to.
:Justin

+++++++++++++++

They did have caps on their physical attributes, though. Now they
don't- they can just keep taking "improved physical attribute" until they
have as many levels as magic points (which can be raised with initiation,
presuming no big changes there). Not that only having good physical
attributes is a smart use of karma, but its something to think about.
Frightening, neh?

Mongoose

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