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Message no. 1
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:57:27 +0100
It seems to me that the combat movement rules have changed
significantly.

As I interpret the rules, it makes no difference, whether you're wired
to the max or not. Your movement rate is the same: Quickness in meters
every combat TURN

In SR2 it was every combat PHASE

Can this be true? Isn't that a bit unfair to the wired people or, should
I say, unrealistic?

- Carsten

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DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++
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From Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:28:33 +0200
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:28:33 +0200
Fro
Message no. 2
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:26:58 +0100
It seems to me that the combat movement rules have changed
significantly.

As I interpret the rules, it makes no difference, whether you're wired
to the max or not. Your movement rate is the same: Quickness in meters
every combat TURN

In SR2 it was every combat PHASE

Can this be true? Isn't that a bit unfair to the wired people or, should

I say, unrealistic?

- Carsten

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL+ P+>++ L+ E-- W+++$ N+ K-
w+++$ O- M-- V- PGP- t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(+++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------






From cyberraven@********.net Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:38:04 -0400
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:38:04 -0400
From: I
Message no. 3
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:54:10 +0100
It seems to me that the combat movement rules have changed
significantly.

As I interpret the rules, it makes no difference, whether you're wired
to the max or not. Your movement rate is the same: Quickness in meters
every combat TURN

In SR2 it was every combat PHASE

Can this be true? Isn't that a bit unfair to the wired people or, should
I say, unrealistic?

- Carsten

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL+ P+>++ L+ E-- W+++$ N+ K-
w+++$ O- M-- V- PGP- t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(+++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------






From cmpetro@*********.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:56:53 -0500
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:56:53 -0500
From: cmp
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:38:16 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Carsten Gehling wrote:

> As I interpret the rules, it makes no difference, whether you're wired
> to the max or not. Your movement rate is the same: Quickness in meters
> every combat TURN
>
> Can this be true? Isn't that a bit unfair to the wired people or, should
> I say, unrealistic?

Actually, I'm glad they finally fixed this. The previous editions
had too many problems in their combat movement rules to enumerate.
Further (and this is something I've maintained since SRI) wired reflexes
do *not* make you run faster. Forget the fluff in the SR2 blackbook and
all the crappy novels you've read. Let's talk physics.
One of the single largest determining factors in running speed is
how fast your legs move and how hard they can propel your body forward.
This is directly related to your muscle strength. So if you want to run
faster, it would stand to reason that you'd need to get Muscle
Replacement. And guess what - Muscle Replacement (and Muscle Aug)
increases your Quickness, which directly increases your running speed -
just like it should. For once, FASA had it more or less right from the
start.
It has been pointed out that at extreme levels, however, neural
coordination of the limbs does become a limiting factor (i.e. the brain
can't tell the legs to contract and release various muscles fast enough),
Unfortunately, just where this limit lies is still subject to dispute from
various medical researchers. So Wired Reflexes may have some effect, but
perhaps only after your legs are already propelling you at some ridiculous
speed.
Wired Reflexes are great for cutting down your reaction time, but
allowing them to let you move at Mach 6 has always bugged me. I know
people with the reflexes of a rattlesnake that couldn't outrun a granny in
a walker. Similarly, I know people who have a reaction time of molasses
but can run like all get-out. I ran track with a guy who was *always*
last out of the blocks (i.e. his reaction time sucked), but he ran so fast
it didn't matter. I'm glad they finally fixed the mechanics to reflect
this.

Marc






From dghost@****.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:43:37 -0500
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:43:37 -0500
From: dghost@**
Message no. 5
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:37:15 -0500
It occassionally bugs me that in order to the more things in a turn that
wired reflexes allows, you need move various limbs faster. I'm not
proposing any mechanic to fix this since it's not a big deal, I'm just
whining and taking up bandwidth on a slow day. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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From Ereskanti@***.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:33:57 EDT
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:33:57 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.
Message no. 6
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:38:32 -0700
>It occassionally bugs me that in order to the more things in a turn that
>wired reflexes allows, you need move various limbs faster. I'm not
>proposing any mechanic to fix this since it's not a big deal, I'm just
>whining and taking up bandwidth on a slow day. :)

I believe you missed Marc's point here. Wired Reflexes allow you to move your limbs
faster, yes. However, they don't allow you to run faster because in order to do so you
need vastly stronger muscles as well (he pointed out how muscle augmentation increases
Quickness and how that increases your Reaction, thus beefing up your Reflexes).

Reflexes and running speed aren't necessarily related.

>--
>D. Ghost

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.




From dghost@****.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:58:37 -0500
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:58:37 -0500
From: dghost@****.c
Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:58:37 -0500
I did not miss Marc's point. I agree with Marc. I was elaborating. If
various reaction increases (except move-by-wire) don't boost you leg
speed, why should it boost the muscles of any other limb? What I was
saying is trying to modify the rules to take that into account would be
an undue hassle so let's leave it be. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From Schizi@***.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:42:00 EDT
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:42:00 EDT
From: Schizi@***.com Sch
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:45:59 -0500
Good reflexes allow fast limb motion; your other limbs (your arms) are
not propelling the entire mass of your body. Somebody with good reflexes
can kick fast too; they just are not necessarily strong enough to push their
body weight forward at high speed, as required when running.

Mongoose






From m0ng005e@*********.com Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:50:27 -0500
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:50:27 -0500
From: Mongoo
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:50:27 -0500
Yes, they have, and intentionally so.

:As I interpret the rules, it makes no difference, whether you're wired
:to the max or not. Your movement rate is the same: Quickness in meters
:every combat TURN
:
:In SR2 it was every combat PHASE
:
:Can this be true? Isn't that a bit unfair to the wired people or, should
:I say, unrealistic?
:
:- Carsten


Nope, its MORE realistic. Note that a vehicle max speed is (since R2)
its max movement per turn; the fact that a rigger with a VCR3 is driving it
makes no difference to the vehicles power production (admitedly, theres that
accelration test, but we can assume a good driver better controls wheelspin
ans such...). SR3 just aplies the same thinking to human movement, and as
such fixes what was actually more of a bug in SR2 movement than a realistic
(or even "fair") effect of reflex enhancements.
Having played a chacter with a quickness of 11 and 4d6+17 intiative
in SR2, I feel that SR2 style movement probabaly gives such characters an
unfair advantage. One of the major effects on playing that character in SR3
would be that he could not as advance(running) 33 meters on the enemy and
then fire shots while standing still, before they even get a chance to
respond. To get good movement, he'd have to move while taking actions, and
would have a penalty to those actions.

Mongoose






From chrome@********.org Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:47:54 -0400
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:47:54 -0400
From: Richard L
Message no. 10
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 02:26:04 -0500
Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://www.comnetcom.net/~jamz





From alvion@****.uni2.dk Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:41:25 +0100
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:41:25 +0100
From: Carsten G
Message no. 11
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:41:25 +0100
> So, with all this talk about movement, how exactly do you handle it in SR3?
> What happens when I decide to run in the third pass?

You don't. You declare your movement for the entire turn at the beginning of
the turn. You then divide your total movement in meter out on all passes in the
turn.
If you then later decide only to run in the third pass, you can only run a
number of meters equal to:

(total movement) / (total number of passes)

You still get penalties as if you were running in all passes

- Carsten

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL+ P+>++ L+ E-- W+++$ N+ K-
w+++$ O- M-- V- PGP- t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(+++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------






From decor.consulting@***.servicom.es Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:19:29 +0200
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:19:29 +0200
Fr
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:12:17 +0200
> So, with all this talk about movement, how exactly do you handle it in SR3?
> What happens when I decide to run in the third pass?

SR3 doesn't really say, but a good option would be to divide your movement
rate by the total number of actions you get, and allow you to run that far
on each action you want to spend running. For example, if you have 2
actions and can run 12 meters a turn (i.e. your Quickness is 4), but you
only decide to run on your third action, you can cover 6 m. The same would
go for walking: you could walk 2 m in the same action.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998




From gurth@******.nl Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:12:17 +0200
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:12:17 +0200
From: Gurth gurth@**
Message no. 13
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT)
> SR3 doesn't really say, but a good option would be to divide your movement
> rate by the total number of actions you get, and allow you to run that far
> on each action you want to spend running. For example, if you have 2
> actions and can run 12 meters a turn (i.e. your Quickness is 4), but you
> only decide to run on your third action, you can cover 6 m. The same would
> go for walking: you could walk 2 m in the same action.

What Gurth said...except that if you only have 2 actions, you
can't decide to run on your third. :)
FWIW, we've always handled movement this way, and it works very
well. It also makes Wired opponents less ridiculous.

Marc






From barbie@********.de Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:22:23 +0200
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:22:23 +0200
From: Barbie LeVi
Message no. 14
From: Kelson Kelson@****.net
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 02:35:03 -0500
> I did not miss Marc's point. I agree with Marc. I was elaborating. If
> various reaction increases (except move-by-wire) don't boost you leg
> speed, why should it boost the muscles of any other limb? What I was
> saying is trying to modify the rules to take that into account would be
> an undue hassle so let's leave it be. :)

The temptation is too great. I have to respond again. ;) The point you
are missing is that the enhanced reflexes DO increase your leg speed, but
that's not enough to make you run a lot faster. That also requires a
significant amount of strength. So, if you want to run faster, get muscle
replacement or some such as well and your quickness will be boosted (thus,
increasing your running speed). The limitation to your running speed isn't
so much your reflexes as it is your limited physical strength. Running
fast doesn't require quick reflexes, but it does require agility
(quickness) and lots of strength.

Make sense?

> --
> D. Ghost

Justin :)




From dhinkley@***.org Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:43:32 -0700
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:43:32 -0700
From: David Hinkley
Message no. 15
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:21:01 -0500
I'm a lot stronger than I used to be ... but I'm not any faster.
Increased Reflexes may increase the frequency the signal to extend and
contract a given muscle fiber, but it does not increase how quickly that
fiber can extend and contract. Therefore, for example, improving your
reflexes won't improve your typing speed. It also shouldn't improve your
quick draw speed (only how quickly you react to X stimulus and intiate
the quick draw sequence. This is, of course, AFAIK, can a biologist
(Lady J?) back me up/contradict me?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From nafien@*******.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:36:43 +1000
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:36:43 +1000
From: Sean McGrat
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:44:52 EDT
> Running
> fast doesn't require quick reflexes, but it does require agility
> (quickness) and lots of strength.
>
> Make sense?

No Justin, actually it doesn't. Not entirely anyway. I understand what both
of you are trying to say, but for some reason I keep remembering the
difference between Voluntary and Involuntary Muscle systems in the body.

-K

-K




From Ereskanti@***.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:46:10 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:46:10 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.co
Message no. 17
From: Kelson Kelson@****.net
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:01:19 -0500
> No Justin, actually it doesn't. Not entirely anyway. I understand what
both
> of you are trying to say, but for some reason I keep remembering the
> difference between Voluntary and Involuntary Muscle systems in the body.

The thing to keep in mind is that having enhanced reflexes in SR isn't just
about reflexes, really. Choosing to draw your gun (for example) isn't
simply a reflex, it's a conscious action. Reflexes are all about reaction,
but in SR having "enhanced reflexes" allows you to take a lot of actions
faster, not just reactive ones. So it's not just your reflexes that are
enhanced, but rather your entire nervous system. But having an enhanced
nervous system isn't enough to run faster. Having a nice Running skill,
however, will. :)

> -K

Justin




From Airwasp@***.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:01:37 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:01:37 EDT
From: Airwasp@***.com Ai
Message no. 18
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:49:52 -0700
Don't forget that any involuntary muscle can become a voluntary muscle.
There are people who spend their whole lives in this pursuit. Now what if
these cyber/bio improvements help with those? Justification?

Lloyd





From gurth@******.nl Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:49:58 +0200
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:49:58 +0200
From: Gurth gurth@**
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:45:08 +0200
<K gives an electronic moment of reverance for the man and his work>




From Ereskanti@***.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:35:20 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:35:20 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR3 and movement

In a message dated 6/12/1999 11:11:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Kelson@****.net writes:

> The thing to keep in mind is that having enhanced reflexes in SR isn't just
> about reflexes, really. Choosing to draw your gun (for example) isn't
> simply a reflex, it's a conscious action. Reflexes are all about reaction,
> but in SR having "enhanced reflexes" allows you to take a lot of actions
> faster, not just reactive ones. So it's not just your reflexes that are
> enhanced, but rather your entire nervous system. But having an enhanced
> nervous system isn't enough to run faster. Having a nice Running skill,
> however, will. :)

In the overall biomechanics of the (meta)human bo
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:35:20 EDT
>Actually, it's the Ring of Fire. As to why, I dunno. Magical power is
the
>first reason I can think of, but this bags the question, why do they
want
>the power? To work against the horrors, maybe, maybe not.

AH!!! Now it makes sense. If I recall correctly, the Ring of Fire is
just a circle of Volcanoes. Ie, there are a lot of volcanoes on various
islands and they form an approximate circle. As for significance, the
only thing I can think of is the Great Ghost Dance. Perhaps there is a
reason that they natural disaster invoked was volcanic eruptions ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From chrome@********.org Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:14:57 -0400
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:14:57 -0400
From: Richard L. Riessen chrome@********.org
Subject: Odd Thought

>Do Riggers have to exert a concious effort to use their blinkers (turn
>signals) or is it an automatic function of the interface?

Hmmm, could go either way. The signal may need a free action to d
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:37:38 EDT
CT





From datwinkdaddy@*********.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:53:23 -0500
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:53:23 -0500
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*********.com
Subject: PBEM

I'm looking to get involved as a player in a PBEM game. Are there any
GMs either running one that I can join in on or possibly one starting
up.

Also, is it on-topic to post this here? If not, could someone suggest
where I might ask?

Da Twink Daddy
bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ# 514984





From Ereskanti@***.com Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:59:11 EDT
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:59:11 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Mob War + Dragons + PacRim = Question

In a message dated 6/12/1999 7:43:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

> >Again here's a question. This time it's about dragons + high magic + Mob
> >War!. Possible spoilers; players keep out!
> >
> >
> >10
> >
> >
> >9
> >
> >
> >8
> >
> >
> >7
> >
> >
> >6
> >
> >
> >5
> >
> >
> >4
> >
> >
> >3
> >
> >
> >2
> >
> >
> >1
> >
> >
> >
Message no. 22
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:54:43 -0500
> Jamz wrote:
>
> > So, with all this talk about movement, how exactly do you handle it in
SR3?
> > What happens when I decide to run in the third pass?
>
> You don't. You declare your movement for the entire turn at the beginning
of
> the turn. You then divide your total movement in meter out on all passes
in the
> turn.
> If you then later decide only to run in the third pass, you can only run a
> number of meters equal to:
>
> (total movement) / (total number of passes)
>
> You still get penalties as if you were running in all passes
>
> - Carsten

Only problem is that someone with only one action and lower initiative will
out run you and you will need to spend your next 2 actions catching up.
Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but there was an errata on this right? Something
like you divide your movement by the Max number of passes taken that turn,
not your passes? I.e., if someone is taking 4 passes, everyone divides
movement by 4?

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://www.comnetcom.net/~jamz
Message no. 23
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: SR3 and movement
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:05:08 +0100
Jamz wrote:

> Only problem is that someone with only one action and lower initiative will
> out run you and you will need to spend your next 2 actions catching up.
> Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but there was an errata on this right? Something
> like you divide your movement by the Max number of passes taken that turn,
> not your passes? I.e., if someone is taking 4 passes, everyone divides
> movement by 4?

That was what I meant :-)

- Carsten

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL+ P+>++ L+ E-- W+++$ N+ K-
w+++$ O- M-- V- PGP- t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(+++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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