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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:48:05 -0400
OK, here's something of a compromise idea between the existing rules
regarding living things in astral space and my proposal which came up in the
"Full of Life" thread:

Living things have a tangible presence in astral space, what we might call a
"passive astral form." This form cannot be affected by things like astral
combat or spells, but it can potentially block astral movement. In order to
pass through a passive astral form, an active astral form (such as a
projecting person or a spirit) must make a Test. This would be something like
Sorcery, Magic or Astral Strength (Chrisma) for (meta)humans, Force for
spirits. The TN is based on the complexity and size of the passive astral
form. Things like small plants are fairly easy. Large or complex life forms
(like a tree or a bear) are more difficult and sentient life forms (like
people or dragons) are the most difficult. If the astral traveler makes the
Test, he or she passes harmlessly through the passive astral form. If not,
the traveler cannot pass through that astral form without making another Test
(at +2 TN for each additional attempt).

Intelligent beings have a chance of sensing when an astral form passes
through them. This is akin to a "shiver up the spine" or a "somebody just
walked over my grave" feeling. It requires a Perception (10) Test to notice,
-2 to the TN if the subject is magical and an additional -2 if the subject is
capable of astral perception.

Also, any passive astral form directed by a living will (such as a mundane
person's own astral form, or a living object wielded by a living being) can
and will pass harmlessly through an active astral form. So, if an astral
character is standing in a doorway and someone walks through it, no Test is
required. The physical person, carried by the force of his will, passes right
through the astral form. The person does, however, still get a Perception
Test to notice the "funny feeling" of passing through an astral form. The
same is true of a physical person wielding the proverbial "FAB baseball bat"
or some other "living weapon." If swung at an astral form (visible or
otherwise) the object passes right through the astral form, with no Test
required, so, no, you can't hit astral forms with FAB bats. : )

Under this system, living things do provide obstacles for astral characters,
but they can be gotten around with some effort. Especially massive or complex
passive auras (like a dense jungle, or the Earth itself) are virtually
impossible to pass through, while simple auras are not as difficult,
providing minimal protection. Something like FAT Bacteria can then be rated
with a TN to get through it, based on how dense, complex (and therefore,
expensive) the particular FAB barrier is.

Any thoughts? Fire away.

Steve K.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:04:47 -0600
Steve Kenson wrote:
|
| OK, here's something of a compromise idea between the existing rules
| regarding living things in astral space and my proposal which came up in the
| "Full of Life" thread:

I Like It. BTW, Keith and I started heading in this direction
shortly after you left :) I think what you came up is the best way
yet. And I didn't see anything that immediately needed fixing. Have
fun figuring out ratings for the various astral presences :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:18:15 -0800
At 16:48 8/12/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>Living things have a tangible presence in astral space, what we might call a
>"passive astral form." This form cannot be affected by things like astral
>combat or spells, but it can potentially block astral movement. In order to
>pass through a passive astral form, an active astral form (such as a
>projecting person or a spirit) must make a Test. This would be something like
>Sorcery, Magic or Astral Strength (Chrisma) for (meta)humans, Force for
>spirits.

I like Astral Strength (Charisma), myself.

> The TN is based on the complexity and size of the passive astral
>form. Things like small plants are fairly easy.

And plankton is trivial, so you *can* astrally project underwater.

> Large or complex life forms
>(like a tree or a bear) are more difficult and sentient life forms (like
>people or dragons) are the most difficult. If the astral traveler makes the
>Test, he or she passes harmlessly through the passive astral form. If not,
>the traveler cannot pass through that astral form without making another Test
>(at +2 TN for each additional attempt).

Sounds good.

>Intelligent beings have a chance of sensing when an astral form passes
>through them. This is akin to a "shiver up the spine" or a "somebody
just
>walked over my grave" feeling. It requires a Perception (10) Test to notice,
>-2 to the TN if the subject is magical and an additional -2 if the subject is
>capable of astral perception.

Cool. This also makes spirit possession less of a puzzler: a spirit and a
living being *can* overlap.

>Also, any passive astral form directed by a living will (such as a mundane
>person's own astral form, or a living object wielded by a living being) can
>and will pass harmlessly through an active astral form. So, if an astral
>character is standing in a doorway and someone walks through it, no Test is
>required. The physical person, carried by the force of his will, passes right
>through the astral form. The person does, however, still get a Perception
>Test to notice the "funny feeling" of passing through an astral form. The
>same is true of a physical person wielding the proverbial "FAB baseball bat"
>or some other "living weapon." If swung at an astral form (visible or
>otherwise) the object passes right through the astral form, with no Test
>required, so, no, you can't hit astral forms with FAB bats. : )

What happens in the case of a living object being moved without will-- such
as a net made of tubes filled with algae fired from a net gun, or a tree
branch blown in the wind?

>Under this system, living things do provide obstacles for astral characters,
>but they can be gotten around with some effort. Especially massive or complex
>passive auras (like a dense jungle, or the Earth itself) are virtually
>impossible to pass through, while simple auras are not as difficult,
>providing minimal protection.

So the Earth has a complex aura because the interaction of all the bacteria
and earthworms and ant nests and bugs builds up in a form of synergy to make
the whole much more difficult to pass through than the sum of its parts.

> Something like FAT Bacteria can then be rated
>with a TN to get through it, based on how dense, complex (and therefore,
>expensive) the particular FAB barrier is.

>Any thoughts? Fire away.

I like it. If you want living walls of a given rating, you end up paying
more,
perhaps something like this:

Wall Wall
Strength Composition
1 Mildew growing on the walls of your shower
3 Ivy
6 Ivy-lichen symbiosis (not just more biomass, but an very small
ecosystem on the wall)
9 Complex system of ivy, lichen, moss, climbing roses, and a simple
insect ecology handling pollination
12 Network of fruiting vines, lichens, mosses, and insects, and a
variety of birds nesting in it, eating the fruit, and fertilizing
the soil below

So if someone goes to the trouble to have a complex ecology growing on their
building, the synergy between the auras will make it difficult to get in, just
like the synergy of individual auras in the living earth.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:00:19 +0100
<Snip new astral/aura rules>

|Any thoughts? Fire away.

Looks good....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:45:36 -0500
You wrote:
<<big snip>>

> Any thoughts? Fire away.

A neat approach, just one problem: what happens if *both* astral presences
(say, a mage and a person on the physical) are moving? Is a test required,
which takes precedence, the movement of the astral mage, or the movement of the
physical person?

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:55:38 -0400
On Aug 12, 4:48pm, Steve Kenson wrote:
> Subject: [SR3] Astral Movement
> OK, here's something of a compromise idea between the existing rules
> regarding living things in astral space and my proposal which came up in the
> "Full of Life" thread:
>
> Living things have a tangible presence in astral space, what we might call a
> "passive astral form." This form cannot be affected by things like astral
> combat or spells, but it can potentially block astral movement. In order to
> pass through a passive astral form, an active astral form (such as a
> projecting person or a spirit) must make a Test. This would be something like
> Sorcery, Magic or Astral Strength (Chrisma) for (meta)humans, Force for
> spirits. The TN is based on the complexity and size of the passive astral
> form. Things like small plants are fairly easy. Large or complex life forms
> (like a tree or a bear) are more difficult and sentient life forms (like
> people or dragons) are the most difficult. If the astral traveler makes the
> Test, he or she passes harmlessly through the passive astral form. If not,
> the traveler cannot pass through that astral form without making another Test
> (at +2 TN for each additional attempt).
>
>....
>Also, any passive astral form directed by a living will (such as a mundane
>person's own astral form, or a living object wielded by a living being) can
>and will pass harmlessly through an active astral form. So, if an astral
>character is standing in a doorway and someone walks through it, no Test is
>required. The physical person, carried by the force of his will, passes right
>through the astral form.
>....
> Any thoughts? Fire away.
>
> Steve K.
>-- End of excerpt from Steve Kenson
A couple of questions.

Is a FAB net fired by a mundane carried through by the will
of the shooter or can it snag an astral mage? Does the
net pull the mage to the ground hanging over the body or
collapse to the floor.

If a mage is trapped by living walls and he fails the test,
what happens when time runs out?

If the mage fails the test to pass through a living wall, does
it have any effect upon the mage or is it just a failure?

If an astral mage is in a cave or tunnel and it collapses
what then if he fails the test?

I like the idea that the will of the weilder prevents a FAB
bat from doing anything. But I have problems stretching it to
a person who has no concept that you are there, walking through
you with out you making a test to see if it passes through.
It also seems out of place since a mundane uses his will
as the power of his attack on spirits. While the force of
will let's a mundane fight a spirit, it prevents them from
dealing with a mage. This is not intuitive, but then no one
said it had to be.

Does any of these conditions change for a manifested mage?

I like the general idea presented. I'm just wondering how it
deals with the problems that people keep asking.


--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 7
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:34:11 -0400
Steve Kenson once dared to write,

>OK, here's something of a compromise idea between the existing rules
>regarding living things in astral space and my proposal which came up in the
>"Full of Life" thread:
<snip>
>Any thoughts? Fire away.

That's getting more believable. I'm still seeing that interaction
working along the way of how barriers work (or should work). Plus that
could get the regular barrier rules reviewed and made more workable. I've
got more pages on notes on barriers than what was originally written just
trying to figure them out (and I still can't recall how they work).


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 8
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:00:19 +1000
> > Any thoughts? Fire away.
>
> A neat approach, just one problem: what happens if *both* astral presences
> (say, a mage and a person on the physical) are moving? Is a test required,
> which takes precedence, the movement of the astral mage, or the movement of the
> physical person?
>

The movement of the Physical person would I believe, because it's
attached to the body like an anchor (it makes a
bit of intuitive sense)..... Perhaps there'd be some kind of bounce or
collision effect if the astral form failed his/her test to move through
the aura.

I'd suggest that a moving collison should be treated exactly like a
stationary pass/merge attempt for a couple of reasons;

1. An astral form can move at 2000+ kph and can presumably dodge stuff
fairly easily, so you can assume that most collisions are intentional.
There may be problems with fast moving physical forms (Plane travellers,
etc.), but I doubt that the astral form would have much 'astral intertia'.

2. You have to deal with moving physical forms as a general case, because
sooner or later a tree is going to drop on an astral form, or someone is
going to put FAB in their bumper bar and go play dodgems through astral
traffic.

One of the biggest questions is whether an astral form should sustain
stun damage from failing to pass through an astral presence.

I think they should.... It'd make it fun to take a stroll though peak
hour traffic on the astral.

Marty
Message no. 9
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:03:03 -0500
I also think this is an improvement over the
previous proposal. I LIKE animate objects being
difficult to penetrate. The weakest part of this is
the "willful" collision vs. penetration attempt
distinction. How about this: in the event of
someone walking through an astral form, the
astral form makes a penetration roll as normal
(perhaps with a TN penalty because he wasn't
prepared). If he makes it, fine. If he fails, one
of two things happens: He is pushed back/to the
side, if there is room (stepping aside should be a
free action in astral space) or he is _forced_
through the passive aura, which causes stun
damage based on how badly he failed his roll.
90% of all cases should fall into the first
category: pushed aside.

The only munchkin technique I can think of is
firing a FAB net at your own mage to push him
through that tough barrier... Maybe instead of
stun damage it should be magic rating points
(temporarily).

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 10
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:53:35 -0400
Lorden <westln@***.EDU> wrote:
>A couple of questions.
>
>Is a FAB net fired by a mundane carried through by the will
>of the shooter or can it snag an astral mage? Does the
>net pull the mage to the ground hanging over the body or
>collapse to the floor.

Ranged weapons (like the aforementioned FAB net) are not affected by the will
of the wielder (much like ranged weapon vs. spirits are not). When the net
hits the astral form, there is an immediate Test for the astral form to pass
through it. If it fails, the astral form is pulled to the ground by the net.
Of course, it might be possible for the astral form to simply pass through
the floor to escape, or make another Test to escape from the net at +2 TN per
extra attempt.

>If a mage is trapped by living walls and he fails the test,
>what happens when time runs out?

If you mean, what happens when the astral character runs out of Essence,
simple: he dies. Good reason to burn some Karma Pool on one of those Tests,
no?

>If the mage fails the test to pass through a living wall, does
>it have any effect upon the mage or is it just a failure?

Nothing happens to the astral form except for being unable to pass through
the passive aura. It blocks movement, but causes no other effect. Barriers
that attack astral forms must be astrally active, such as wards.

>If an astral mage is in a cave or tunnel and it collapses
>what then if he fails the test?

He can try again (at +2 TN). If he can't get out before time runs out, he's
dead.

>I like the idea that the will of the weilder prevents a FAB
>bat from doing anything. But I have problems stretching it to
>a person who has no concept that you are there, walking through
>you with out you making a test to see if it passes through.
>It also seems out of place since a mundane uses his will
>as the power of his attack on spirits. While the force of
>will let's a mundane fight a spirit, it prevents them from
>dealing with a mage. This is not intuitive, but then no one
>said it had to be.

Not at all. A mundane uses Willpower to combat a MANIFEST spirit. A spirit in
astral form obeys the same rules as an astrally projecting character. An
embodied spirit (ie, a physical person) simply has more "astral interia" than
a spirit, so a mundane can walk through an astral form, astral spirit or a
ward without any effort. The mundane might get a strange feeling as he passes
through the astral form, but that's all.

>Does any of these conditions change for a manifested mage?

Here's some terminology which needs to be cleared up. Astrally projecting
character cannot "manifest" (that is, assume a physical form like a
manifesting spirit). A projecting character (or a spirit like a watcher) can
focus its will to appear to others as a ghostly image, but this image is
nothing more than a kind of mana illusion existing only in the minds of the
views. It has no physical substance and no effect on the physical world
whatsoever. The character's astral form is still in astral space and still
follows all of the rules above. The only difference is he is easier to target
with weapons like the FAB netgun, that's about it.

>I like the general idea presented. I'm just wondering how it
>deals with the problems that people keep asking.

As I said, it's something of a compromise. There was concern that making
astral forms able to pass through EVERYTHING non-magical would make astral
projectors and spirits too powerful and versatile. This allows living matter
to provide a barrier of sorts, just not the soverign, invulnerable barrier it
does in the present rules.

Steve K.
Message no. 11
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:54:53 -0400
losthalo <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> wrote:
>A neat approach, just one problem: what happens if *both* astral presences
>(say, a mage and a person on the physical) are moving? Is a test required,
>which takes precedence, the movement of the astral mage, or the movement of
the
>physical person?

The movement of the mundane person/living entity. This is something a
projecting character could take advantage of, but moving through a crowd of
people moving in the opposite directing (going "upstream" as it were) would
still be disorienting for the projector and might still require a Test
(perhaps at a reduced TN) for those people who are standing still or moving
in the opposite direction.

The system will certainly call for some GM interpretation and judgment call
for situations like the one above. The question is will it solve more
problems than it creates?

Steve K.
Message no. 12
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:55:50 -0400
Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG> wrote:
>And plankton is trivial, so you *can* astrally project underwater.

Yes. Stuff as small and diffuse as airborne or waterborne microbes, planton
and such do not even require a Test, the astral form passes right through
them. This also fixes a pet peeve of mine: the astral form passes THROUGH the
bacteria, etc. rather than displacing it. Very high concentrations of
microbal life (ie, FAT bacteria) can limit astral movement still.

>Cool. This also makes spirit possession less of a puzzler: a spirit and a
>living being *can* overlap.

Correct. The "overlap" would be an effective part of the Possession power.

>What happens in the case of a living object being moved without will-- such
>as a net made of tubes filled with algae fired from a net gun, or a tree
>branch blown in the wind?

These things would still affect an astral form and a Test would have to be
made to pass through them.

>So the Earth has a complex aura because the interaction of all the bacteria
>and earthworms and ant nests and bugs builds up in a form of synergy to make
>the whole much more difficult to pass through than the sum of its parts.

That's one way of looking at it <grin>. Some shamans and holistic scientists
would also say the Earth itself could be considered a single, massive
organism (the Gaia Hypothesis) with a living aura of its own. Either way, the
effect is the same, the difficulty of passing through the Earth is pretty
high. Passing through something fairly thin like a natural rock wall would be
difficult, but not impossible, while passing through the Earth's mantle into
the molten core would be out of the reach of any know astral projection in
the world.

Steve K.
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:42:05 GMT
Steve Kenson writes
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement

This set of ideas looks pretty good. It's going to take a while of
the list ripping it appart to see if there are less holes than the
present version (which hasn't survived some of the additions since
SR2 came out) but overall it looks quite workable.

I will join the list of folks not keen on the suggested changes to
spellcasting though. I find the present rules pretty good, you want
to really hurt someone you need a high force spell.
Maybe Sorcery Skill needs stressing. [i've listed the points here,
most folks reading this will know em all but!]
Its more dice for casting / drain
it counts as both unarmed AND armed combat in the astral plane if
you so desire!
It is used to learn new spells
With a few intiation grades it can be used quite happilly to
default to enchanting for focus and orialcum manufacture, i had a PC
of mine make several million yen and a rating 6 weapon focus in
pretty short order without bothering to buy the enhanting skill! i
didn't need it.

> Lorden <westln@***.EDU> wrote:
> >A couple of questions.
> >
> >Is a FAB net fired by a mundane carried through by the will
> >of the shooter or can it snag an astral mage? Does the
> >net pull the mage to the ground hanging over the body or
> >collapse to the floor.
>
> Ranged weapons (like the aforementioned FAB net) are not affected by the will
> of the wielder (much like ranged weapon vs. spirits are not). When the net
> hits the astral form, there is an immediate Test for the astral form to pass
> through it. If it fails, the astral form is pulled to the ground by the net.
> Of course, it might be possible for the astral form to simply pass through
> the floor to escape, or make another Test to escape from the net at +2 TN per
> extra attempt.
>
Ok. But saying the florr is 'planet Earth' and the mage fails the
test.
/--------\
/ Mage \Net
-----/ Mage \-------
EARTHêRTHêRTHêRTHêRTH

Now what happens if the mage fails the roll, is he
1) dead, squashed flat
2) squahsed to a sliver and trapped
3) supports the net and is trapped, will look real wierd i know but.
[i presentl would use the latter - when all else fails work out what
happens were the mages real body there (taking astral - physical
symetery) and work it out]

> >If a mage is trapped by living walls and he fails the
test, > >what happens when time runs out?
>
> If you mean, what happens when the astral character runs out of Essence,
> simple: he dies. Good reason to burn some Karma Pool on one of those Tests,
> no?
>
Yep

> >If the mage fails the test to pass through a living wall, does
> >it have any effect upon the mage or is it just a failure?
>
> Nothing happens to the astral form except for being unable to pass through
> the passive aura. It blocks movement, but causes no other effect. Barriers
> that attack astral forms must be astrally active, such as wards.
>
Fine.

> >Does any of these conditions change for a manifested mage?
>
> Here's some terminology which needs to be cleared up. Astrally projecting
> character cannot "manifest" (that is, assume a physical form like a
> manifesting spirit). A projecting character (or a spirit like a watcher) can
> focus its will to appear to others as a ghostly image, but this image is
> nothing more than a kind of mana illusion existing only in the minds of the
> views. It has no physical substance and no effect on the physical world
> whatsoever. The character's astral form is still in astral space and still
> follows all of the rules above. The only difference is he is easier to target
> with weapons like the FAB netgun, that's about it.
I agree. Long misinterpreted by less knowledgeable players due to bad
terminology.

> >I like the general idea presented. I'm just wondering how it
> >deals with the problems that people keep asking.
>
> As I said, it's something of a compromise. There was concern that making
> astral forms able to pass through EVERYTHING non-magical would make astral
> projectors and spirits too powerful and versatile. This allows living matter
> to provide a barrier of sorts, just not the soverign, invulnerable barrier it
> does in the present rules.
>
Overall i like it. It is considerably more backwards complatible than
the last idea. Also as you note in your other post if allows the
magician to 'fly through bacteria' getting neatly rid of one of the
biggest explanation flaws in the system. There is no longer a grey
area between mundanes humans/planets and bacreia/ pollen gains in the
air, the Earth becomes a 'rating 1000' barrier, and pollen/bacteria a
'rating 0 barrier'!

> Steve K.
>

Mark
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:21:36 -0600
Steve Kenson wrote:
|
[snip: astral movement and barriers]
|
| The system will certainly call for some GM interpretation and judgment call
| for situations like the one above. The question is will it solve more
| problems than it creates?

What it does is solve those problems that weren't really solvable, at
least not without a PhD in philosophy. Any problems that your new
system creates could be solved with a little thought and good
judgement, IMO.

For example, using your idea, the FAB/Earth trap can be worked out to
my satisfaction. If the mage fails to pass through the FAB net that
falls on top of him, and he gets trapped between it and the Earth
(assuming he doesn't pass through the earth), then he will support
the net until he gets free (presumably by passing through the net).
If he isn't able to escape, then he dies when his essence reaches 0.
Anyway, what I'm saying, is I have no problem with the Mage's astral
form supporting the net using your rules. Under the current rules
thining about the FAB/Earth trap causes my brain to hurt :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 15
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:25:12 -0400
Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK> wrote:
>> Lorden <westln@***.EDU> wrote:
>> >A couple of questions.
>> >
>> >Is a FAB net fired by a mundane carried through by the will
>> >of the shooter or can it snag an astral mage? Does the
>> >net pull the mage to the ground hanging over the body or
>> >collapse to the floor.
>>
>> Ranged weapons (like the aforementioned FAB net) are not affected by the
will
>> of the wielder (much like ranged weapon vs. spirits are not). When the net
>> hits the astral form, there is an immediate Test for the astral form to
pass
>> through it. If it fails, the astral form is pulled to the ground by the
net.
>> Of course, it might be possible for the astral form to simply pass through
>> the floor to escape, or make another Test to escape from the net at +2 TN
per
>> extra attempt.
>>
>Ok. But saying the florr is 'planet Earth' and the mage fails the
>test.
> /--------\
> / Mage \Net
>-----/ Mage \-------
>EARTHêRTHêRTHêRTHêRTH
>
>Now what happens if the mage fails the roll, is he
> 1) dead, squashed flat
> 2) squahsed to a sliver and trapped
> 3) supports the net and is trapped, will look real wierd i know but.
> [i presentl would use the latter - when all else fails work out what
>happens were the mages real body there (taking astral - physical
>symetery) and work it out]

I would say #3 is the correct answer. The astral form is brought to the floor
and trapped under the net, which would look like it had something invisible
held under it. If the projector can make the Test to slip through the net,
the net just collapses, otherwsie the projector is trapped and unable to move
the net.

>Overall i like it. It is considerably more backwards complatible than
>the last idea. Also as you note in your other post if allows the
>magician to 'fly through bacteria' getting neatly rid of one of the
>biggest explanation flaws in the system. There is no longer a grey
>area between mundanes humans/planets and bacreia/ pollen gains in the
>air, the Earth becomes a 'rating 1000' barrier, and pollen/bacteria a
>'rating 0 barrier'!

I agree it is much more 2nd edition compatible. As I see it now, the Earth
won't be Rating 1000, more like TN 9 or so. The trick is, you need to make a
Test (I'm favoring Astral Strength [Charisma] at the moment) every phase you
are "inside" the obstacle and you can only go at Normal Astral Movement (Fast
Movement is right out). If you blow a Test, you're popped back out where you
started. So passing through a natural rock wall is difficult, but possible,
while passing through the Earth's mantle down to the core is nigh impossible.

Steve K.
Message no. 16
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:26:07 -0400
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> wrote:
>Anyway, what I'm saying, is I have no problem with the Mage's astral
>form supporting the net using your rules. Under the current rules
>thining about the FAB/Earth trap causes my brain to hurt :)

You're not the only one, chummer : )

Steve K
Message no. 17
From: Greg <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:48:14 -0400
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> wrote:
>Anyway, what I'm saying, is I have no problem with the Mage's astral
>form supporting the net using your rules. Under the current rules
>thining about the FAB/Earth trap causes my brain to hurt :)

I do, in fact I have a very intense problem with it. What you are talking
about is allowing an astral presence to affect a physical object, opening
the door on that is something that I don't think anyone really wants. You
are also tying the "laws" astral space to the spatial laws of realspace.
This reduces the entire concept of an astral to the level of a very dry and
meaningless real-world-with-pretty-colors that mages can use to do some easy
espionage. It removes everything like interest and mystic force from the
concept of the astral and turns it into just another game effect. I'm sure
that most , if not all of you, will completely disagree with me but I am
firmly against tying astral meta-spatial relationships to their physical
counterparts. What's next, an astrally active spraypaint to mark projecting
mages. The concept, and what it implies about how astral projection and
astral existance work, makes me want to retch. For these reasons, as well
as many others both gameworld and magical-logic based in my games the mage
would be under the net in astral and the net would appear empty in the real
world.

<greg>
And you
can't ground through Ghouls either!
Message no. 18
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:13:24 -0500
Greg wrote:
>For these reasons, as well as many others both
>gameworld and magical-logic based in my
>games the mage would be under the net in
>astral and the net would appear empty in the
>real world.

I agree! That makes 2 votes, Steve!!!

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 19
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:29:43 -0400
Mike Elkins once dared to write,

>Greg wrote:
>>For these reasons, as well as many others both
>>gameworld and magical-logic based in my
>>games the mage would be under the net in
>>astral and the net would appear empty in the
>>real world.
>
>I agree! That makes 2 votes, Steve!!!
>
>Double-Domed Mike

Still difficult to explain but I prefer that solution. The auras would be
tangled not supported that way. A FAB spray would just pass through but
would cause some difficulty to the astral presence. That works a lot
better.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 20
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:07:42 EDT
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:13:24 -0500 Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
writes:
>Greg wrote:
>>For these reasons, as well as many others both
>>gameworld and magical-logic based in my
>>games the mage would be under the net in
>>astral and the net would appear empty in the
>>real world.
>
>I agree! That makes 2 votes, Steve!!!


<AOL>
ME THREE!
</AOL>

:) I'll lend my support to the idea as well, three votes (unless someone
beats me to it) so far.
Message no. 21
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:07:14 GMT
Steve Kenson writes
> >>
> >Ok. But saying the florr is 'planet Earth' and the mage fails the
> >test.
> > /--------\
> > / Mage \Net
> >-----/ Mage \-------
> >EARTHêRTHêRTHêRTHêRTH
> >
> >Now what happens if the mage fails the roll, is he
> > 3) supports the net and is trapped, will look real wierd i know but.
> > [i presentl would use the latter - when all else fails work out what
> >happens were the mages real body there (taking astral - physical
> >symetery) and work it out]
>
> I would say #3 is the correct answer. The astral form is brought to the floor
> and trapped under the net, which would look like it had something invisible
> held under it. If the projector can make the Test to slip through the net,
> the net just collapses, otherwsie the projector is trapped and unable to move
> the net.
Thanks.

I note a few folks have been saying this solution takes some of the
mysitcism out (an astral form supports a physical object) but here
the astral form is not moving the physical object the physical object
is failing to move the astral form. The big advantage of defaulting
back to the laws of physics and the real world is that when the
inevitable happens and some awkward player finds the trick FASA
didn't cover in the book the poor hapless GM has a reference frame to
fall back on to try and work out the answer.

> >Overall i like it. It is considerably more backwards complatible than
> >the last idea. Also as you note in your other post if allows the
> >magician to 'fly through bacteria' getting neatly rid of one of the
> >biggest explanation flaws in the system. There is no longer a grey
> >area between mundanes humans/planets and bacreia/ pollen gains in the
> >air, the Earth becomes a 'rating 1000' barrier, and pollen/bacteria a
> >'rating 0 barrier'!
>
> I agree it is much more 2nd edition compatible. As I see it now, the Earth
> won't be Rating 1000, more like TN 9 or so.
Fine, i just stuck down a nice big impossible number.

> The trick is, you need to make a
> Test (I'm favoring Astral Strength [Charisma] at the moment) every phase you
> are "inside" the obstacle and you can only go at Normal Astral Movement
(Fast
> Movement is right out). If you blow a Test, you're popped back out where you
> started.
Which fits, similar 'unconcious = pop back to body - something else to
clear up in print.

> So passing through a natural rock wall is difficult, but possible,
> while passing through the Earth's mantle down to the core is nigh impossible.
>
OK.

Mark
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:44:29 -0600
MC23 wrote:
|
| Mike Elkins once dared to write,
|
| >Greg wrote:
| >>For these reasons, as well as many others both
| >>gameworld and magical-logic based in my
| >>games the mage would be under the net in
| >>astral and the net would appear empty in the
| >>real world.
| >
| >I agree! That makes 2 votes, Steve!!!
|
| Still difficult to explain but I prefer that solution. The auras would be
| tangled not supported that way. A FAB spray would just pass through but
| would cause some difficulty to the astral presence. That works a lot
| better.

I originally voted for the "net is supported" theory, and I feel I
could give a reasonable arguement for it. But, for the record I
could live the the "tangled aura" theory too. The point is, that
Steve's re-write makes it so much easier to make a judgement, one way
or the other.

Aside from the FAB problem :) are there any other problems with
Steve's idea?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:39:10 -0400
On Aug 15, 7:44am, David Buehrer wrote:
> Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement -Reply
> MC23 wrote:
> |
> | Mike Elkins once dared to write,
> |
> | >Greg wrote:
> | >>For these reasons, as well as many others both
> | >>gameworld and magical-logic based in my
> | >>games the mage would be under the net in
> | >>astral and the net would appear empty in the
> | >>real world.
> | >
> | >I agree! That makes 2 votes, Steve!!!
> |
> | Still difficult to explain but I prefer that solution. The auras would be
> | tangled not supported that way. A FAB spray would just pass through but
> | would cause some difficulty to the astral presence. That works a lot
> | better.
>
> I originally voted for the "net is supported" theory, and I feel I
> could give a reasonable arguement for it. But, for the record I
> could live the the "tangled aura" theory too. The point is, that
> Steve's re-write makes it so much easier to make a judgement, one way
> or the other.
>
> Aside from the FAB problem :) are there any other problems with
> Steve's idea?
>
>-- End of excerpt from David Buehrer

I don't have any problems with it, just questions on how

One question comes to mind. Once you have successfully passed
through an object, do you need to make another test to
do it again? I am going to assume yes, but I hate assuming.

Second question. If a mage has successfully passed through an
object and is now in the center, lets say hollow area. If the
mage goes unconscious what then? Do you make a test to see
if he returns to his body. I assume if he fails he dies,
other wise he lives?

Third question. Again assuming your inside the hollow object.
Someone "shakes your body, or slaps it doing just a little
damage, does the mage still notice it? Again I would assume
yes.

I realize these questions don't exactly deal with moving in
astral space but I think they might be related.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 24
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:44:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-12 16:50:40 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM writes:

<snipped some stuff giving comparison rule ideas>

>
> Under this system, living things do provide obstacles for astral
characters,
> but they can be gotten around with some effort. Especially massive or
> complex
> passive auras (like a dense jungle, or the Earth itself) are virtually
> impossible to pass through, while simple auras are not as difficult,
> providing minimal protection. Something like FAT Bacteria can then be
rated
> with a TN to get through it, based on how dense, complex (and therefore,
> expensive) the particular FAB barrier is.
>
> Any thoughts? Fire away.
>
> Steve K.
>
Steve, I apologize for not getting back to you or the group on a whole, I
know everyone thinks I live here now...

However, the suggestions for ratings are possibly some of the nicest,
relatively simplest rule ideas I have seen for some time. My only suggestion
would then come with the "FAB" Bat, use Willpower as the Combat Skill of the
"mundane" and the Charisma as the "Power" of the attack itself. Still
allow
for the immunity, but perhaps at only half it's rating (ie, the Essence
attribute itself).

But other than that, bravo...
-Keith
Message no. 25
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:57:49 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-12 20:21:54 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

> I Like It. BTW, Keith and I started heading in this direction
> shortly after you left :) I think what you came up is the best way
> yet. And I didn't see anything that immediately needed fixing. Have
> fun figuring out ratings for the various astral presences :)
>
Gosh David, thanks (blushing for the joint mentioning)....how about these
for suggestions....

Use the Object resistance ratings in the books? No, that goes the wrong
way....how about stating that ....

General Plants (non group) 4
General Plants (grouping, as in a forest) 6
People (non-awakened, non group) 4
People (non-awakened, group as in a crowd) 6 (don't forget background
count at gatherings)
Living Earth (unprocessed, natural materials) 3
Living Earth (as above, but more than 1 meter thick) Barrier Rating of
"mundane" material (let's give that cobblestone wall a real chance here)
Combing two or more of the above elements Highest Base rating + half
of the lower (round UP)
FAB (give it a rating as Steve K suggested earlier)

-Keith
Message no. 26
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:18:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-13 01:28:04 EDT, westln@***.EDU (Lorden) writes:

> Is a FAB net fired by a mundane carried through by the will
> of the shooter or can it snag an astral mage? Does the
> net pull the mage to the ground hanging over the body or
> collapse to the floor.

Neither, keep reading...

>
> If a mage is trapped by living walls and he fails the test,
> what happens when time runs out?

Lots of problems???

> If the mage fails the test to pass through a living wall, does
> it have any effect upon the mage or is it just a failure?

Using the original posting here as a guide, I would have to say no, it just
might make the magician in question break an astral sweat from the failed
effort.

> If an astral mage is in a cave or tunnel and it collapses
> what then if he fails the test?

That ruling is already there. Trapped/Crushed to death or until the time of
death.

> I like the idea that the will of the weilder prevents a FAB
> bat from doing anything. But I have problems stretching it to
> a person who has no concept that you are there, walking through
> you with out you making a test to see if it passes through.
> It also seems out of place since a mundane uses his will
> as the power of his attack on spirits. While the force of
> will let's a mundane fight a spirit, it prevents them from
> dealing with a mage. This is not intuitive, but then no one
> said it had to be.
>
> Does any of these conditions change for a manifested mage?

Possibly...as a "Manifest Form" has Immunity to Normal Weapons and the net
without anyone holding it would only use its rating, the magician can make an
attempt to "slip free" of the restraining aura.

> I like the general idea presented. I'm just wondering how it
> deals with the problems that people keep asking.

Did the last couple help?
-Keith
Message no. 27
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Astral Movement
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:36:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 TalonMail@***.COM wrote:

[Make a test to cross a living being in astral space]

T> Under this system, living things do provide obstacles for astral
T> characters, but they can be gotten around with some effort. Especially
T> massive or complex passive auras (like a dense jungle, or the Earth itself)
T> are virtually impossible to pass through, while simple auras are not as
T> difficult, providing minimal protection. Something like FAT Bacteria can
T> then be rated with a TN to get through it, based on how dense, complex (and
T> therefore, expensive) the particular FAB barrier is.
T>
T> Any thoughts? Fire away.

I like it, and I would let the test be astral strengh. The manifestation
could be some kind of resistance, like moving through water. The speed
would depend on the number of succsesses, but never would anywhere near
the normal astral speed. This would also make it damn hard to go down to
the bottom of the sea or into the earth astrally (No astral seaQuest or
searching for gold :))

T> Steve K.

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 28
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:16:36 -0400
David Buehrer once dared to write,

>I originally voted for the "net is supported" theory, and I feel I
>could give a reasonable arguement for it. But, for the record I
>could live the the "tangled aura" theory too. The point is, that
>Steve's re-write makes it so much easier to make a judgement, one way
>or the other.

The problem with the net supported ruling is that you start a
technology affecting magic precedent. The answer of some type of aura
malleability avoids this conundrum. Maybe passing through solid objects
is a meta-magic ability learning to focus your will and aura cohesively
enough to withstand this newly learned skill. Maybe the dangers involved
keeps most sane magicians away from trying it. Either way, it is not
commonplace now and shouldn't be too much easier in the future of the
game.
Possibly the net on the astral plane would be supported by the
astral mage while in the real world the net would be lying flat on the
floor. The astral form of the net would be pushing as hard as it can to
return to it's adjacent physical component while the astral mage would be
distorted by the force of the net. This sort of entrapment could also
drain the mages existing astral time limit by such a forced position. Or
the two aura would be interwoven by this violent action and would have to
be untangled to be escaped. Not an easy thing to do for the untrained.
On the whole I am very much against having physical proof of an
astral presence. Mundane security guards should be looking at an empty
FAB net lying on the ground wondering if they caught anything. That just
maintains a lot of the mystery and power of magic. Being able to
physically measure it destroys a lot of what it is.
I am also for any type of astral passings be difficult. The ivy
covered wall should be the standard barrier to keep most astral forms
out. Anything less in difficulty and this sort of thing would have been
happening in Shadowrun already and it would also create super mages that
could enter almost every place on earth. Passing through astral auras
should be difficult and/or dangerous, end of story.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 29
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:07:28 -0500
Lorden wrote:
>One question comes to mind. Once you have
>successfully passed through an object, do you
>need to make another test to do it again?

Yes. (IMHO)

>Second question. If a mage has successfully
>passed through an object and is now in the
>center, lets say hollow area. If the mage goes
>unconscious what then?

If he doesn't wake up before his astral time limit
expires, he dies, IMHO. Passing through astral
barriers is (at least slightly) risky.

>Someone "shakes your body, or slaps it doing
>just a little damage, does the mage still notice
>it? Again I would assume yes.

Notice it? Yes. Instantly return to body? No.
Instantly have a strong DESIRE to return to his
body, perhaps.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 30
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Astral Movement
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:53:29 -0700
---Steve Kenson wrote:
>
>
> Ranged weapons (like the aforementioned FAB net) are not affected by
the will
> of the wielder (much like ranged weapon vs. spirits are not).

Actually if I recall correctly, firearms are not affected by the will
of the attacker, but bows and thrown weapons (knives, shuriken, etc.)
still are. Spirits do not get immunity to ranged combat against these
kind of attacks. Guess it al depends on which class you'd put your fab
net into. :o) I'd personally say it falls into a class like a
crossbow, which I believe is grouped in with firearms and spirits get
hteir immunity against it.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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