Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:09:44 -0700
The language in SR3 on hermetic circles is a bit vague. At one point,
they're referred to as only being astral barriers when in use, but
later seem to be in the same category of semipermanent barriers as
shamanic lodges. Are they now useful for privacy as well as rituals?

Is the requirement on the time to draw a temporary circle new, or have I
just been missing it all these years? It certainly adds to the time
for conjuring elementals, and creates a market for Rent-A-Conjuring-Circle
places in the shadows...

BTW, is there a limit to the Rating of shamanic lodge that a shaman
can create, or Rating of circle a Hermetic with sufficient amounts of
space can draw?


--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 2
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 05:20:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 8:12:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.ORG writes:

Okay, I'm not Steve, but I'll give this a shot anyway.

This section regards "The Hermetic Circle", found on pp. 167 of the BABY.

> The language in SR3 on hermetic circles is a bit vague. At one point,
> they're referred to as only being astral barriers when in use, but
> later seem to be in the same category of semipermanent barriers as
> shamanic lodges. Are they now useful for privacy as well as rituals?

Hmmm, actually hermetic circles are permanent in two different ways. The
first, called the Cheap Version, only lasts until it is scuffed in some form
or fashion, then it becomes useless, but until it is scuffed it is still
usable. The second, called the Permanent version, the creator of the circle
spends (Rating^2) x 100 nuyen and the circle is basically permanent in that
scuffing it will not hurt the cirlce overall (blowing it up with a PAC still
means the circle is gone however).

As for privacy, the circle also acts as a astral -AND- physical barrier for
whomever is inside the circle. But other than that, it does not provide much
else in terms of privacy, unless you meant something else.

> Is the requirement on the time to draw a temporary circle new, or have I
> just been missing it all these years? It certainly adds to the time
> for conjuring elementals, and creates a market for Rent-A-Conjuring-Circle
> places in the shadows...

As for the time to put a circle together, somewhat new. In the BBB, circles
to summon elementals take the rating of the circle in hours to put together.
Now, in BABY, Cheap Version circles take (Rating) in hours to put together,
while the Permanent Version takes (Rating) in days to put together.

And yes, this does create a Rent-A-Conjuring Circle for people in the Shadows,
and this would be something an initiatory group could support easily, along
with a number of shadow mages who come to some form of resource sharing.

> BTW, is there a limit to the Rating of shamanic lodge that a shaman
> can create, or Rating of circle a Hermetic with sufficient amounts of
> space can draw?

With regards to the maximum rating, the only thing slowing the pc down is the
availability target number, in addition, a very high rating circle (6+, IMHO)
is going to get many peoples and corps attention, as they begin to wonder why
Joe Mage needs something that high to begin with. If the mage goes about
putting the components together on their own, then the target numbers for the
gathering tests for the materials is the same as the Circle's rating.

With regards to space, a circle has a diameter equal to it's rating in meters.
So, yes, space also limits the size of the circle. But, and this is a house
rule I am considering, the same circle does not need to be just it's (rating)
in meters in diameter, it could be made larger.

And, there is nothing that I know of that prevents a mage from putting other
circles within larger ones, although the cost might be higher for the circle's
materials (probably the rating of the larger circle and the smaller one added
together to determine the cost for the circle).

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 3
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:13:11 -0400
Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;

>And, there is nothing that I know of that prevents a mage from putting other
>circles within larger ones, although the cost might be higher for the
>circle's
>materials (probably the rating of the larger circle and the smaller one added
>together to determine the cost for the circle).

And nothing to state that you can. To my easy chair approach to
understanding circles, the inner circle would disrupt the pattern of the
larger one. Circles are not just the circumference of one.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 4
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:29:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/98 2:13:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> >And, there is nothing that I know of that prevents a mage from putting
other
> >circles within larger ones, although the cost might be higher for the
> >circle's
> >materials (probably the rating of the larger circle and the smaller one
> added
> >together to determine the cost for the circle).
>
> And nothing to state that you can. To my easy chair approach to
> understanding circles, the inner circle would disrupt the pattern of the
> larger one. Circles are not just the circumference of one.

I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO, what
would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 5
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:15:20 -0400
Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;

>I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO, what
>would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?

Destroy the larger one.
Message no. 6
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:39:43 -0400
Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/18/98 2:13:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> mc23@**********.COM writes:
>
> > >And, there is nothing that I know of that prevents a mage from putting
> other
> > >circles within larger ones, although the cost might be higher for the
> > >circle's
> > >materials (probably the rating of the larger circle and the smaller one
> > added
> > >together to determine the cost for the circle).
> >
> > And nothing to state that you can. To my easy chair approach to
> > understanding circles, the inner circle would disrupt the pattern of the
> > larger one. Circles are not just the circumference of one.
>
> I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO, what
> would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?

IMO, it would be possible, but the circle(s) would have to be
predesigned for multifunctionality (is that a word?). The design
alone would take some serious time, then the making of the circle
would also take extra time. I would say the design time could be [sum
of all ratings]days (maybe months, for such a circle would truly be a
powerful tool), and the making should use the same formulas from the
rules, but should once again have their ratings added together.

I also would put a restriction in that conjuration circles cannot
co-exist if they are of opposing elements.

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 7
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:18:44 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/98 9:57:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iridios@*********.COM writes:

> > > And nothing to state that you can. To my easy chair approach to
> > > understanding circles, the inner circle would disrupt the pattern of
> the
> > > larger one. Circles are not just the circumference of one.
> >
> > I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO,
> what
> > would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?
>
> IMO, it would be possible, but the circle(s) would have to be
> predesigned for multifunctionality (is that a word?). The design
> alone would take some serious time, then the making of the circle
> would also take extra time. I would say the design time could be [sum
> of all ratings]days (maybe months, for such a circle would truly be a
> powerful tool), and the making should use the same formulas from the
> rules, but should once again have their ratings added together.

Thanks, this is also somewhat along the same lines I was thinking of also.
The person putting together this type of circle needs to design it first, by
rolling their Conjuring skill (since Magical Theory no longer exists) with a
target number equal to the highest rating of the circles, plus half the sum of
the ratings of the smaller circles contained within. The design time takes a
base time equal to the target number in weeks. Then putting this thing
together takes a total amount of time in days equal to the sum of the ratings
of all of the circles multiplied by two.

> I also would put a restriction in that conjuration circles cannot
> co-exist if they are of opposing elements.

What if you had a generic hermetic circle that was the larger circle, and then
inside you could put two circles of opposing elements on opposite sides of
each other, they could then balance each other out possibly. You could even
expand this even further to encompass all of the four elements into the larger
circle also, and keeping them on opposite sides from each other.

The only question then, is what could go into the middle ... what Fifth
Element would that be? I know for an Occidental (Wu Jen) mage, the center
circle would be Light, but I don't recall anything from the Western (European)
pov.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 8
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:25:59 EDT
In a message dated 8/19/98 2:39:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;
>
> >I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO,
what
> >would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?
>
> Destroy the larger one.

Much too simple of an explanation MC23 ... much too simple ... perhaps
explaining your pov more would benefit us some ...

BTW, you might want to consider popping your name onto the list so everyone
knows it ... as it is only a matter of time before someone figures out who you
are from the shirt list that K made.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:17:25 -0500
>> >...but, IYO, what would
>> >you have to do to put another circle inside of another?
>>
>> Destroy the larger one.
>
>Much too simple of an explanation MC23 ... much too simple ... perhaps
>explaining your pov more would benefit us some ...

I've gotta side with MC23 on this one, Herc. Whatever a lot of people wanna
think about me, I'm not a munchkin, and the notion of placing hermetic
circles within hermetic circles strikes me as being on the munchkinous side.
Hermetic circles are more than just simple geographic shapes; they're
complex patterns. Placing one inside another would disrupt the outer one,
rendering it useless.

I'm learning that you shouldn't ask MC23 questions if you suspect you won't
like his answers; I think that concept applies here.

>BTW, you might want to consider popping your name onto the list so everyone
>knows it ... as it is only a matter of time before someone figures out who
you
>are from the shirt list that K made.

That would take all the fun out of it, don't you think?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:29:14 -0400
Patrick Goodman wrote:
> >> >...but, IYO, what would
> >> >you have to do to put another circle inside of another?
> >>
> >> Destroy the larger one.
> >
> >Much too simple of an explanation MC23 ... much too simple ... perhaps
> >explaining your pov more would benefit us some ...
>
> I've gotta side with MC23 on this one, Herc. Whatever a lot of people
> wanna
> think about me, I'm not a munchkin, and the notion of placing hermetic
> circles within hermetic circles strikes me as being on the munchkinous
> side.
>
How? They're just patterns on the ground. The bigger ones take more
resources and time to create, but otherwise have real advantages.
Conjuration summons spirits *outside* the circle while the mage stands
inside, so having to summon through multiple *active* circles might
give the caster a penalty, however the circle isn't necessarily active
just because it's there.

> Hermetic circles are more than just simple geographic shapes; they're
>
They're complex geometric shapes, constructed of several simple
geometric ones (or simple mathematical ones).

> complex patterns. Placing one inside another would disrupt the outer one,
> rendering it useless.
>
Unless the inner circles are incorporated as part of the design of the
outer ones...

James Ojaste
Message no. 11
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:29:04 -0400
Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;

>In a message dated 8/19/98 2:39:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>mc23@**********.COM writes:
>
>> Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;
>>
>> >I can see your approach, and it probably is the correct one, but, IYO,
>what
>> >would you have to do to put another circle inside of another?
>>
>> Destroy the larger one.
>
>Much too simple of an explanation MC23 ... much too simple ... perhaps
>explaining your pov more would benefit us some ...

I don't believe two circles could coexist. One would have to disrupt
the other one. I don't see anything simple about. If you ask what would
happen but you don't think nothing good could come out of it then you
already have a bias. At best the two circles would coexist inside of one
another but the idea of augmenting each other flawed. If it could support
your desires in any way then the higher rating would be incorporating the
smaller on all along.
Don't forget a combined Magical Library only equals the highest
rating. You just can't coax more power out of what you are saying.

>BTW, you might want to consider popping your name onto the list so everyone
>knows it ... as it is only a matter of time before someone figures out who
>you are from the shirt list that K made.

The shirt should say MC23. In truth if I went by my given name or if
I only went by MC23 wouldn't change anything. I find that the interest in
my real name alternates between amusing and asinine to me. You should be
reading what I say and that and that alone should be the focus of it. Not
what I look like or what my name is. That is just a distraction to what I
am saying and alters perceptions even if in only subtly.
I choose the pen name MC23 to nullify the connections between what
is written and what is perceived from outside sources. What is written is
what is important. Those who think it is a game, that's fine. If you
think what my name is is important, than you are mistaken. Go bother the
other listmembers who also don't care to see their name appear.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:04:16 -0400
Time to step into the fray...

At 10:29 AM 8/19/98 -0400, you wrote:

>How? They're just patterns on the ground. The bigger ones take more
>resources and time to create, but otherwise have real advantages.
>Conjuration summons spirits *outside* the circle while the mage stands
>inside, so having to summon through multiple *active* circles might
>give the caster a penalty, however the circle isn't necessarily active
>just because it's there.
>
>> Hermetic circles are more than just simple geographic shapes; they're
>>
>They're complex geometric shapes, constructed of several simple
>geometric ones (or simple mathematical ones).

True. However, do you think that it's just a basic circle? Where do those
patterns go? In theory if not in practice, those shapes and designs fill
much of the space inside the circle.

And I'm not positive that a "circle" even *needs* to be a circle; I'd have
to imagine that you could have other mystical geometric shapes too.

So what you would end up with, almost certainly, is that the lines and
patterns of one circle would instersect with the lines and patterns of the
other circle, potentially disrupting and altering the geometry and math and
mystical power of the circles.

I'd say that *neither* circle would work.

>Unless the inner circles are incorporated as part of the design of the
>outer ones...

Potentially possible, but I would have to guess this would be extremely
difficult. In order to get all the shapes to not touch or to touch and
bisect in just the right manner would have to mind-numbingly difficult,
since we aren't just talking about a collection of geometic shapes and
mystical symbols, we are talking about a need to make sure they are also in
the proper order and sequence and the proper distance from certain key points.

So again, I'm going to have to say that neither hermetic circle would work.

Erik J.

no .sig until the site is rebuilt
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:44:59 -0500
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:17:25 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>> >>...but, IYO, what would
>> >>you have to do to put another circle inside of another?

>> > Destroy the larger one.

>>Much too simple of an explanation MC23 ... much too simple ... perhaps
>>explaining your pov more would benefit us some ...

>I've gotta side with MC23 on this one, Herc. Whatever a lot of people
wanna
>think about me, I'm not a munchkin, and the notion of placing hermetic
>circles within hermetic circles strikes me as being on the munchkinous
side.
>Hermetic circles are more than just simple geographic shapes; they're
>complex patterns. Placing one inside another would disrupt the outer
one,
>rendering it useless.

How about instead of putting one circle inside of another, turning a
circle in on itself to save space? For Example, a rating 6 circle has a
6 meter radius and takes 6 hrs to inscribe, right? (I don't know if this
has changed in SR3 but I only have SR2 right now.) How about if you
reduce the radius (up to half the rating) of the circle, drawing the
circle takes an extra (radius saved)^2 hours? You could also increase
the cost of the materials ... charging twice for the space saved ...
Sound good?

If you want to COMBINE two circles (ie a R6 ritual circle and a R6
summoning circle and have them both function) that's different ... -NO-
you can't do it the magics of the two circles interfere too much with
each other. Think of the circle as having a dozens if not hundreds of
glyphs along the edge and every glyph is connected to every other glyph
by a straight line. Creating a circle inside another circle interupts
the outer circle. Now, if you have a permanent circle and want a
temporary circle inside it and don't care that outer circle doesn't work
while the inner one exists, that's okay.

All IMO, of course. :)

<SNIP>
>>BTW, you might want to consider popping your name onto the list so
everyone
>>knows it ... as it is only a matter of time before someone figures out
who
>>you
>>are from the shirt list that K made.

>That would take all the fun out of it, don't you think?
>
>---
>(>) Texas 2-Step
<SNIP Sig>

Uhm ... actually, I doubt MC23's real name is on the shirts ... :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [SR3] [Attn: Steve Kenson] Hermetic Circles, Shamanic Lodges, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!