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Message no. 1
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: [SR3]: Barrier/Armor Spells
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:18:25 -0400
Speaking to the problem of the Armor spell (which is now pretty much the
same thing as a Personal Physical Barrier spell), I have some issues with
it--in fact, it's one of the first places where I'm thinking of amending
with a house rule.

Description: "Target 6...One success is enough to create a field with a
Barrier Rating equal to the spell's Force. Every two successes increase
the Barrier Rating by 1. The barrier can be brought down by physical
attacks. Any reductions in Barrier Rating are restored at the beginning
of the next combat turn. If the barrier is penetrated, it collapses and
the spell ends." The Barrier spell is fundamentally the same except that
it is AoE.

Now, page 124 of SR3 under "Barrier Effect Table" lists: "Power greater
than adjusted Barrier Rating: For every increment equal to half the
Barrier Rating by which the Power exceeds that rating, a one-half meter
hole is opened and the Barrier Rating is reduced by 1."

Further rules quotes before I get into the meat of my problem with all of
this: Firing Through: "If the Barrier Rating exceeds the Power of the
attack, the barrier stops the attack cold." and, under APDS, "APDS
halves...the Barrier Rating of an object in any attack." Arguments
earlier about Explosive Rounds are covered on page 116: "For attempts to
fire through a barrier, use twice the material's Barrier Rating as the
target number for the attack, however, the barrier itself takes damage
from a successful attack as if it had half its normal barrier rating."

Now, on to the argument:

From the /direct and literal/ wording of these rules, it seems to me
that:

(A) APDS does /not/ halve armor or barrier spells, particularly because of
the use of the word "object" in the description of APDS. The barrier from
a spell is not an object. Further, I believe it goes against the feel of
the magic rules--APDS's penetration ability is based on physics vs.
materials, and a spell barrier is not something to which that material
would be affected by.

(B) Since the Barrier Rating must /exceed/--not equal or exceed--the power
of the attack to stop the attack cold, a situation in which the Power is
/equal/ to the Force of the attack, would still result in a penetration of
the barrier.

(C) This is unclear, but it /seems/ to me that you need to have Barrier
Rating + 1/2 Barrier Rating in power to open any sort of hole in a
barrier. That is to say, a Power 9 attack will open a half-meter hole in a
Rating 6 barrier, but a Power 6-8 attack will /not/ open a hole in the
barrier (but it will reduce the Rating by 1). However, for the purposes
of firing through, all of the above attacks will penetrate.

(D) The Armor and Physical Barrier spells are fundamentally useless
against any firearm other than hold-out pistols as written. Presuming a
person with Int 6, Will 6, and Magic 6, Sorcery 6, and Armor or Barrier at
force 6, that person (rolling 12 dice to cast--Sorcery 6 + 6 spell
pool)--will most likely have a Rating 7, or 8 if they are extremely lucky,
Barrier Rating, considering the TN of 6. Any heavy pistol round will
penetrate. Most SMG's with their 7M damage ratings will penetrate the
Rating 7 barrier. Considering semi-automatic firing rates, these spells
would appear (to me) to provide /extremely/ short-term protection versus
anyone armed with anything heavier than a Hold-Out Pistol. Even if you
discount (B) above and amend the ruling to read "equal or exceed", the
spell is still ineffective against anything with a power >7, and I will
note that this presumes that your character has everything @
6's--Int/Will/Sorcery/Magic Attrib/Force of spell.

My proposed "rewrite" of the spell would read something along the lines
of: "Any attack that penetrates the Armor/Barrier spell reduces its rating
according to p. 124. Reductions in barrier rating from attacks that
penetrate the barrier do not get restored at the end of the combat turn.
If the barrier is at any time reduced below half of its Force, the barrier
collapses."

That's just a suggestion, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts on
the matter, arguments, et. al.

--Scott "Shayd" Roberts
--Director of Roleplaying, Shadowrun MUX: Detroit
--Are You Ready For The Motor City? Telnet: joshua.dnaco.net 4201
Message no. 2
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3]: Barrier/Armor Spells
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:45:32 -0700
First off, this is a great post, and clarifies (for me) the discussion
quite a bit.

>Speaking to the problem of the Armor spell (which is now pretty much the
>same thing as a Personal Physical Barrier spell), I have some issues with
>it--in fact, it's one of the first places where I'm thinking of amending
>with a house rule.

Yup, me too. Except, gasp, I'm trying to play SR3 "as is" in the rulebook.

>(A) APDS does /not/ halve armor or barrier spells, particularly because of
>the use of the word "object" in the description of APDS. The barrier from
>a spell is not an object. Further, I believe it goes against the feel of
>the magic rules--APDS's penetration ability is based on physics vs.
>materials, and a spell barrier is not something to which that material
>would be affected by.

I would agree.

>(B) Since the Barrier Rating must /exceed/--not equal or exceed--the power
>of the attack to stop the attack cold, a situation in which the Power is
>/equal/ to the Force of the attack, would still result in a penetration of
>the barrier.

Here is one of those subtle changes from SR2 to SR3 that you have to strain
your eyes for.

>(C) This is unclear, but it /seems/ to me that you need to have Barrier
>Rating + 1/2 Barrier Rating in power to open any sort of hole in a
>barrier. That is to say, a Power 9 attack will open a half-meter hole in a
>Rating 6 barrier, but a Power 6-8 attack will /not/ open a hole in the
>barrier (but it will reduce the Rating by 1). However, for the purposes
>of firing through, all of the above attacks will penetrate.

Could be. It seems to me that to open any sort of hole in the barrier you
use the Breaking Through rules on p. 125:

"Attacks to break through a barrier (most commonly doors) are resolved in a
similar manner to the rules for Blast against Barriers (p. 119), except
that the barrier has twice its normal Barrier Rating against firearm rounds
and other ranged attacks. This increase accounts for the fact that even
though a bullet is powerful, it punches only a tiny hole.

Against melee attacks, a barrier has twice its normal Barrier Rating.
Against combat spells, barriers have twice their normal rating. Against
elemental manipulation spells, use the normal Barrier Rating.

A regular door will break open when its Barrier Rating is reduced to
one-half. A security door's rating must be reduced to 0 before it will
break open."

It seems that one would have to reduce (given in the example, an average
Barrier rating of 7) the Barrier down from Rating 14 to Rating 7 before one
could be considered to have "breached" it.

>(D) The Armor and Physical Barrier spells are fundamentally useless
>against any firearm other than hold-out pistols as written. Presuming a
>person with Int 6, Will 6, and Magic 6, Sorcery 6, and Armor or Barrier at
>force 6, that person (rolling 12 dice to cast--Sorcery 6 + 6 spell
>pool)--will most likely have a Rating 7, or 8 if they are extremely lucky,
>Barrier Rating, considering the TN of 6. Any heavy pistol round will
>penetrate. Most SMG's with their 7M damage ratings will penetrate the
>Rating 7 barrier. Considering semi-automatic firing rates, these spells
>would appear (to me) to provide /extremely/ short-term protection versus
>anyone armed with anything heavier than a Hold-Out Pistol. Even if you
>discount (B) above and amend the ruling to read "equal or exceed", the
>spell is still ineffective against anything with a power >7, and I will
>note that this presumes that your character has everything @
>6's--Int/Will/Sorcery/Magic Attrib/Force of spell.

Err ... ineffective how? You're still reducing the Power of the attack by
7, and that's before you get to count your own armor. So you'll need 2's on
your resistance test, and this is one of those cases where it's better to
use your Combat Pool to augment your Resistance test rather than using
Dodge. Certainly seems effective to me ...

>That's just a suggestion, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts on
>the matter, arguments, et. al.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter ...

>--Scott "Shayd" Roberts

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

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